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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / February 2005

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Out of curiousity

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Amanda - 05 Feb 2005 16:36 GMT
I just have a question regarding CCLL vs induction.

Are you going to lose more by staying on induction for a while than by
finding your CCLL and staying there?

I have a lot to lose and I'm wondering if I should start going up by
5g a week or stay in induction for a few months.

Thanks for the help.
285.5/261.5/120 monthly-goal: 5
Roger Zoul - 05 Feb 2005 17:23 GMT
> I just have a question regarding CCLL vs induction.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I have a lot to lose and I'm wondering if I should start going up by
> 5g a week or stay in induction for a few months.

Once you have achieved appetite suppression and BG normalization from LC,
there is no need to restrict carbs below the level that can maintain those
advantages.  In fact, a higher carb level *may* make it easier for you to
exercise more, and more vigoriously, and that may help speed your weight
loss.  I'd suggest you find your CCLL and begin some kind of exercise
program. Then, look to calorie restriction to set your rate of weight loss.
10X bodyweight is a good place to start, but if you have a lot to lose 8X
could work better.
Amanda - 11 Feb 2005 01:28 GMT
>Once you have achieved appetite suppression and BG normalization from LC,
>there is no need to restrict carbs below the level that can maintain those
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>10X bodyweight is a good place to start, but if you have a lot to lose 8X
>could work better.

I've decided to start trying to find my CCLL so I at least know WHERE
it is. Afterwards if I end up eating 10 carbs in a day and not wanting
anymore, that's fine. However if I want to have something different
ore more carby I know how much I can have.

I figured it was a good time to do it with starting to use the
elliptical trainer.

I ended up with 24 carbs today and won't be having anything else
before bed. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how I was going
to go from 10-15 carbs up to 25 and raise it by 5 each day. As a
short-term fix I happened by some low carb bread at the grocery store
(6 carbs/slice) and picked up some of that. I had two slices today
which helped jump start it!

I was also a bit worried about bringing the carbs up but not the
calories - working out okay so far, as the bread is only 70 calories a
slice. I only had 1220 calories today.

Now I'm off to make some 'fake chips' with montery jack cheese and
chili powder!

-----
285.5/261/120 monthly-goal: 5
JC Der Koenig - 05 Feb 2005 19:49 GMT
You can stay on induction as long as you wish, but it doesn't mean you'll
lose more. Losing more comes from eating less.

Signature

Most people are dumb as bricks; some people are dumber than that.  -- MFW

> I just have a question regarding CCLL vs induction.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Thanks for the help.
> 285.5/261.5/120 monthly-goal: 5
Amanda - 05 Feb 2005 21:31 GMT
>You can stay on induction as long as you wish, but it doesn't mean you'll
>lose more. Losing more comes from eating less.

believe me I'm eating lots less ;p

285.5/261.5/120 monthly-goal: 5
Moon Shooter - 07 Feb 2005 18:39 GMT
=>You can stay on induction as long as you wish, but it doesn't mean you'll
=>lose more. Losing more comes from eating less.

??Urban Legend??

In theory, the core idea of Atkins is;
Without Carb intake, one's body has to burn protein and fat to build fat.
This is why they ask you to eat enough fat(continueously) to ignite Fat
burning to build Fat process.

Since burning fat to build fat is a fat minus process, you loose fat(weight).
This is also why fat+carb intake is a fast weight gain process.

Now, this only works when your body have enough fat to burn.

The only reason we eat carb is it is cheap and everywhere.
Trust me, carb is your enemy. No good can come out of carb.
Still, if one go for no carb moderate fat(healthy oil) diet, one still will
get some carb, because carb is everywhere.

If you start eating some Carb food(becasue it fit my carb count excuse?), it
will break your defense and desire more carb food.

Getting back to the topic -> low cal atkins.
It is a bad idea.
When one is in low cal, one's body is "in shock" (not normal).
It will mess up Atkins' plan and burn your body's protein and burden more on
your kidneys and liver.
....
jamie - 08 Feb 2005 01:07 GMT
> In theory, the core idea of Atkins is;
> Without Carb intake, one's body has to burn protein and fat to build fat.
> This is why they ask you to eat enough fat(continueously) to ignite Fat
> burning to build Fat process.
>
> Since burning fat to build fat is a fat minus process, you loose fat(weight).

The word is "lose", dear.  Loose is what you want your jeans to be.

It's a darn shame you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking
about.  Perhaps you've been listening to Kevin "quackmaster" Trudeau's
commercials about the Atkins package he sells, where he lies like a
rug about how Atkins works, just like he lies about every other product
he sells (and for many of which he's been prosecuted for fraud).

Eating fat doesn't "ignite fat-burning", but it's easier to get
your body adjusted to running on fats for fuel instead of running
on carbs by eating plenty of fat (Induction).

However, eat too much dietary fat for your activity level, and your
body has no need to burn any bodyfat -- no weight loss.  Eat even
more fat, and you can store it and gain weight despite eating almost
no carbs.  People often find somewhat more leeway in the amount of
overage before gaining on LC, but it doesn't miraculously defy
known principles of physics.

168/125/125  coming up on 8 years
LC since 2/18/97 maintaining since 3/17/99

Signature

 jamie  (jamiemck@newsguy.com)

         "There's a seeker born every minute."

Moon Shooter - 09 Feb 2005 23:26 GMT
I did say "in theory".
I have not read my BioChem for 20+ years. So my memory is kind of vague.
Anyway, if my memory serves me right.

It requires energy to break down intake fat and build body fat.
It requires energy to break down body fat and make it as energy.
No one can eat too much fat without Carb.

=>Moon Shooter <ROOT@Hotmail.com> wrote:
=>> In theory, the core idea of Atkins is;
=>> Without Carb intake, one's body has to burn protein and fat to build fat.
=>> This is why they ask you to eat enough fat(continueously) to ignite Fat
=>> burning to build Fat process.
=>>
=>> Since burning fat to build fat is a fat minus process, you loose fat(weight).
=>
=>The word is "lose", dear.  Loose is what you want your jeans to be.
=>
=>It's a darn shame you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking
=>about.  Perhaps you've been listening to Kevin "quackmaster" Trudeau's
=>commercials about the Atkins package he sells, where he lies like a
=>rug about how Atkins works, just like he lies about every other product
=>he sells (and for many of which he's been prosecuted for fraud).
=>
=>Eating fat doesn't "ignite fat-burning", but it's easier to get
=>your body adjusted to running on fats for fuel instead of running
=>on carbs by eating plenty of fat (Induction).

You forget "Without Carb intake". Try to read my lines more carefully.
Since I said "Without Carb intake", "instead of running on carbs" is putting
your words on my mouth.

Now, without Carb intake, the body has two choices to make energy, either by
burning fat or by burning protein. If you are in no carb, low fat, high
protein diet, the body will burn protein and put lots of stress to your kidney
and liver. This is why fasting always lead to body mass(protein) loss first
instead of fat loss.

=>
=>However, eat too much dietary fat for your activity level, and your
=>body has no need to burn any bodyfat -- no weight loss.  Eat even
=>more fat, and you can store it and gain weight despite eating almost
=>no carbs.  People often find somewhat more leeway in the amount of
=>overage before gaining on LC, but it doesn't miraculously defy
=>known principles of physics.

For argument sake;
Let's say you weight 200lb(90kg). roughly you will need 0.198lb(90g) protein
intake to sustain your body.
Let's say you eat 1lb of fat and 0.198lb protein only today which is about
450g (450*9=4050Kcal) from fat. Presume protein is for body block(not for
energy).
First the body needs energy#1 to intake, digest and break down 1lb fat and
protein.(minus all other detail)
Let's say the energy#1 is coming from body fat.
Then the body also need energy#2 to breakdown body fat to create energy#1.
(let's ignore the source of energy#2 and all other detail here.)
Then the intake fat is breakdown and go into your blood and through your liver
and body.
Let's say you need 3000kcal for this special day(1lb fat eating day).
Now you have 1050kcal left.
So your body decide to store it as fat.
Then you need energy#3 to burn more body fat to create energy#4 to store this
1050kcal fat.
Let's say it is a perfect world, so you get to store 116g fat(about 0.25lb)
into your body.
Last you also need energy#5 to convert body fat to energy#6 for protein(body
rebuilding)

Since I throw my biochem books long ago, so I can not tell you how much energy
is energy#1+energy#2+energy#3+energy#4+energy#5+energy#6

If I remember it correctly, without carb, the whole process is a net loss.

=>
=>
=>168/125/125  coming up on 8 years
=>LC since 2/18/97 maintaining since 3/17/99

Show me someone that eats too much fat without carb and gain weight.

Very last, I might be wrong about this, because there might be some new
discovery in biochem. My opinion is solely based on 20+ years old knowledge.
JC Der Koenig - 10 Feb 2005 01:55 GMT
Your body can break down muscle for protein, which in turn can be converted
to glucose for energy, which can help in utilizing dietary fat.

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.

Signature

Most people are dumb as bricks; some people are dumber than that.  -- MFW

> I did say "in theory".
> I have not read my BioChem for 20+ years. So my memory is kind of vague.
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
> discovery in biochem. My opinion is solely based on 20+ years old
> knowledge.
JC Der Koenig - 08 Feb 2005 02:20 GMT
You could hardly be more wrong.

Signature

Now piss off.  You cannot possibly be this stupid and remember to
breathe.   You must be trolling.  -- Carmen

> =>You can stay on induction as long as you wish, but it doesn't mean
> you'll
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> your kidneys and liver.
> ....
Wysong *~ - 05 Feb 2005 20:24 GMT
> I just have a question regarding CCLL vs induction.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Thanks for the help.
> 285.5/261.5/120 monthly-goal: 5
=====================
If you stay on induction make sure you take a good vitamin-mineral
supplement.  Meat and fat will not provide everything you need including
enough of the vitamins contained in fruit and vegetables.  Please check with
your Dr. before starting *any* drastic diet changes.
Signature

Wysong
Age 60.  Height 5'6"
Starting date: 1/8/05
171/ 165 / 140 lb
==========================================

JC Der Koenig - 05 Feb 2005 20:39 GMT
Are you trying to say that you can't eat vegetables on induction?

Signature

Most people are dumb as bricks; some people are dumber than that.  -- MFW

> X-No-Archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> with
> your Dr. before starting *any* drastic diet changes.
DigitalVinyl - 06 Feb 2005 15:32 GMT
>I just have a question regarding CCLL vs induction.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Thanks for the help.
>285.5/261.5/120 monthly-goal: 5

There is no way to tell, you will only know when you learn your CCLL.
Your CCLL is how you will be eating after the diet, so sooner you get
yourself accustomed to that the better. That's really important to
long term success.

Induction is not needed for most people. Atkins just used induction to
create a dramatic start and assure most people would see life without
sugar craings and allergic reactions. I lost weight fastest when I was
in the 30-35 carb range. I also felt much beter aroudn n 30 carbs then
I did at 20 (5 weeks of induction).  

Many people suffer from stalls in 3rd and 4th week of induction.
Starving your body of carbs isn't the weightloss plan, managing them
is.  Big difference, but too many people think every problem requires
a sledgehammer. Carbs are necessary and I feel starving your body will
only provoke your body to eventually fight back(stall).

Lastly, this isn't a do or die decision. You really CAN'T decide which
is better (induction or find your CLLL) until you've experienced both.
There is ABSOLUTELY nothing stopping you after finding your CCLL from
dropping baack down to a lower level. On the contrary, you will have a
good idea what level is maintainable long term for you personally--and
the only diet that counts is one you can stay on. You may find that 30
carbs give you enough play to easily stay the course, or you may find
under 20 to be the easiest. You can't really choose until after you've
done both.
DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/273/225  month-start: 274 monthly-goal: 8 since: 12/01/2004
Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
In Maintenance, not counting (CCLL=50-60)
trader4@optonline.net - 06 Feb 2005 16:31 GMT
In Atkins books, he indicated that in general, the lower the carb
level, the faster the weight loss.  He suggested the possibility of
staying in induction longer for those with more weight to lose.  So, if
you want to, you certainly can.  You could also keep carbs close to
induction level, but expand the food choices.
 
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