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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / February 2005More Judgmental of overweight in denial?
Along my weight loss journey... I've found that I have become a little more judgmental about those people who are overweight but in denial about it being because of their behavior. For instance: There is this lady at my work who is 27. She's probably got 45 lbs to drop. She claims she needs to lose 30. She's started talking to me about her exercise regimen because she's noticed my weight loss and is looking for encouragement. I did mention to her that from what I've experienced, it is much easier to lose weight through dietary changes than through exercise alone (although I think exercise is important and applaud her efforts). She then goes into this rant about how she already eats healthy, blah blah blah, she's just become more sedentary and she knows she just needs to exercise. We often eat lunch together in the lunch room. She has bags of chips... fast food burgers & fries... Twinkies or cookies... soda... That's not ALL of what she eats. She'll also eat homemade sandwiches sometimes, but she's always got a bag of chips on the side or a cupcake or she'll have a little of whatever junkfood happens to be available for employees that day in the lunch room. It just seems like she's making such frequent (daily or more often) unhealthy eating choices. And from the spiel she gave me, she is obviously in denial about how unhealthy she eats. Anyway, if I'd had the same observations/talks with her 2 years ago... I wouldn't have been so judgmental. Yes, I would have recognized that she ate some junk food (far more than I used to eat, and I weighed quite a bit more). But I wouldn't have seen her as being quite so overweight as I do now, and I wouldn't have felt as strongly about her dietary choices as I do now. I haven't really said anything to her about her food choices when I see her eating that stuff. It wasn't until after she gave me that whole speech about how she eats healthy that I started paying attention to what she ate, and I don't want to sound as judgmental as my thoughts really are. So I was wondering... anybody else notice these types of thoughts creeping up?  SignatureSpring LC since 1/1/04 260/200/170 "Before" & "current" pics at link below: http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sprgsnow/album?.tok=phX4sVBBuvxvs4Hs&.dir=/55b8 &.src=ph > Along my weight loss journey... I've found that I have become a little more > judgmental about those people who are overweight but in denial about it [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > So I was wondering... anybody else notice these types of thoughts creeping > up? I try to offer advice freely only to those that seek it. I'm happy in my own knowledge that what I'm doing is a good thing. What's worse to a smoker or drinker than a former smoker or drinker? Signature*7 years & 50 lbs permanently off Atkins Guy -- JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories > "Sprgtime" <no.spam@wanted.here> wrote in message > I try to offer advice freely only to those that seek it. I'm happy in my > own knowledge that what I'm doing is a good thing. What's worse to a > smoker > or drinker than a former smoker or drinker? I feel the same way. She has expressed interest in how I lost weight. And she's asked my advice about her physical activity, so that's all I've given. I did make the comment in the beginning about how I thought changing diet had more of an effect on weight loss than exercise, but she sort of made it clear that she wasn't interested because she already eats healthy. Should I point out that she doesn't? I haven't said anything so far. SignatureSpring LC since 1/1/04 260/200/170 "Before" & "current" pics at link below: http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sprgsnow/album?.tok=phX4sVBBuvxvs4Hs&.dir=/55b8 &.src=ph > > "Sprgtime" <no.spam@wanted.here> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > clear that she wasn't interested because she already eats healthy. > Should I point out that she doesn't? I haven't said anything so far. Sure. Why not? I do it to one of my coworkers. She's a vegetarian and she rags on me about how unhealthy meat is, so when I see her eating candy or chips I'll get all sarcastic and say "Ah, I see you're eating your _healthy_ vegetarian stuff!" Then again, my work environment includes a lot of joking around and friendly joshing of each other. SignatureMichelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws. > I did make the comment in the beginning about how I thought changing > diet had more of an effect on weight loss than exercise, but she sort > of made it clear that she wasn't interested because she already eats > healthy. Should I point out that she doesn't? I haven't said anything > so far. I've learned that kind of denial isn't likely to be easily penetrated with a comment aimed at her habits. It's also more apt to be taken as an insult if you point out what she's doing wrong. How about just modeling good behavior? The next time she initiates conversation about your healthy habits, respond with what exactly your version of healthy eating is. Don't even bring her habits into the conversation. Just outline what *you* eat--and what you never touch or only occasionally eat (and mention the infrequent occurrence of your 'treats'). If she's not receptive to your being a non-confrontational, positive role model, she's not likely to recognize her denial. In that case, there's nothing you can say to shake her out of it. Cate > > "Sprgtime" <no.spam@wanted.here> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > clear that she wasn't interested because she already eats healthy. > Should I point out that she doesn't? I haven't said anything so far. You might point out, gently, that one of the things you learned on your weight loss journey was that conventional ideas about healthy eating turned out to be not so healthy for you, and that only when you paid attention to your body rather than to the American Dietetic Association did you discover what constitutes healthy eating for you. No more than one sentence, though, to plant the seed. The rest has to come from her. SignatureAF :: In article <Zbadnd7jw_CJIpXfRVn-1A@comcast.com>, :: "Sprgtime" <no.spam@wanted.here> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] :: you. No more than one sentence, though, to plant the seed. The rest :: has to come from her. I think that may be a good idea, AF. I really think that many don't really know what healthy eating is. Hence, for a lot of folks, it's not really denial, it's ignorance. When I first heard about LC, I was absolutely certain it was a killer (as in make you die early) way to eat. I got edumacated. If you want to help your friend, you might drop a book or two her. Let someone else do the hard work. Someone she won't come to resent. > When I first heard about LC, I was absolutely > certain it was a killer (as in make you die early) way to eat. I got > edumacated. This was my attitude about Atkins' diet. I thought I knew everything about healthy eating. I was eating low fat and high carb because I learned this in school as the best way to eat. Sure I had sugar in my coffee, and the odd soda or candy bar, but at least it wasn't fatty foods like bacon or butter(I would tell myself). I really did think that fat was bad, but carbs were good. I only thought sugar was bad because too much would rot your teeth. Carbs, I was told, was difficult to convert to fat. Fat on the other hand was really bad because it was so easy to eat too much of it in daily foods, and too easily converted to bodyfat. There was no way that anybody could have told me that my food choices were wrong. I knew fat was bad and carbs were good. When I started eating this way, it was only going to be a temporary thing until I lost the weight, and then I was going to go back to eating my healthy carbs. I even told people then, that although the way of eating didn't make sense, I was going to do it anyway because lots of people were losing weight on it. I figured that 2 or 3 months of eating unhealthy was worth it if the weight came off easily. Today, I sing a different tune. But, I notice that people are not interested in the science behind how low carb, natural foods are what we should be eating. Many of my friends and co-workers are impressed with my weightloss, but don't think I am eating healthy. I think that in the years to follow, setting an example of maintaining a good weight and being in general good health will speak louder and more clearly than anything I have told them so far. > If you want to help your friend, you might drop a book or two her. Let > someone else do the hard work. Someone she won't come to resent. ::: When I first heard about LC, I was absolutely ::: certain it was a killer (as in make you die early) way to eat. I [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] :: that 2 or 3 months of eating unhealthy was worth it if the weight :: came off easily. Today, I sing a different tune. YAY! :: But, I notice :: that people are not interested in the science behind how low carb, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: health will speak louder and more clearly than anything I have told :: them so far. That's exactly my plan. > Along my weight loss journey... I've found that I have become a little more > judgmental about those people who are overweight but in denial about it > being because of their behavior. That's completely normal. After you spend a while maintaining weight, you will possibly learn to appreciate powerful forces of biology, better. I went through the same period. Also I am glad that I have experience with "eating less" and just low carbing. Signature223/172.8/180 Absolutely. SignatureYou take stupid to a new level. -- MFW > Along my weight loss journey... I've found that I have become a little > more judgmental about those people who are overweight but in denial about > it being because of their behavior. > > So I was wondering... anybody else notice these types of thoughts creeping > up? > Along my weight loss journey... I've found that I have become a little > more judgmental about those people who are overweight but in denial about [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > So I was wondering... anybody else notice these types of thoughts creeping > up? yup. bigtime. I also notice it with other things. When I was fat I would look at clothing sizes and think the S-M-L thing was all f'd up because I wasn't "that fat" so if I had to wear XL it was obviously messed up. LOL. Now of course I hear others talk about how the clothing industry needs to make clothes for the "average american woman" (14? 16?) Fat! And I am all uppity about it! Also I know people that look down thier nose at LC and "try" to lose weight with low-fat but guzzle coca-cola and don't understand why I've dropped 6 sizes since the summer and they are stuck if not getting fatter. I feel like we know a secret that's not secret! Does your co-worker know you are LC? Maybe she doesn't really know what it means, alot of people out there really thinks it means just eating a few less carbs than normal and eating the LC products from the supermarket. Ya know, Entennmans even put out LC cookies and cakes!! If you brought it up maybe you would be helping her out. >> So I was wondering... anybody else notice these types of thoughts >> creeping up? > > yup. bigtime. > I feel like we know a secret that's not secret! Does your co-worker know > you are LC? No. Nobody at work knows that I'm on LC. They all think I eat VERY healthy, though. What I told them is that I gave up sugar. I eat zero sugar/corn syrup added stuff. They find it very extreme, but have been very positive noticing my weight loss progress. Since I bring my lunch each day and eat in the lunch room filled with other coworkers, they are aware of how often I eat veggies (every day), and they constantly see me pass up junk food. Yesterday someone brought in a homemade chocolate cake for a coworker's b-day. They offered me some, asking if I just wanted to try a tiny piece. I politely declined. SignatureSpring LC since 1/1/04 260/200/170 "Before" & "current" pics at link below: http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sprgsnow/album?.tok=phX4sVBBuvxvs4Hs&.dir=/55b8 &.src=ph >>> So I was wondering... anybody else notice these types of thoughts >>> creeping up? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sugar/corn syrup added stuff. They find it very extreme, but have been > very positive noticing my weight loss progress. I think you'd be doing them and LC a favor if you gave up a little more info next time someone asks. They don't even know you are LC! Since I bring my lunch each day > and eat in the lunch room filled with other coworkers, they are aware of > how often I eat veggies (every day), Just curious, what do you bring in for lunches? I make lunch for my husband and generally give him a salad (romaine lettuce, grated parmesan, walnut slices) with grilled chicken and he uses a bottle caeser dressing. He has that almost everyday unless I have enough dinner leftover. But I find we are heavier on the protien, less veggies. I could use ideas - thanks! and they constantly see me pass up junk > food. Yesterday someone brought in a homemade chocolate cake for a > coworker's b-day. They offered me some, asking if I just wanted to try a > tiny piece. I politely declined. I remember seeing your progress pix somewhere and you've really come far, I'm sure your co-workers are interested in how you did it! I personally can't say no everythime to desserts but I limit it to birthdays or very special occasions and I don't work so office parties are not an issue. > I haven't really said anything to her about her food choices when I see her > eating that stuff. It wasn't until after she gave me that whole speech > about how she eats healthy that I started paying attention to what she ate, > and I don't want to sound as judgmental as my thoughts really are. why not? she's lying to herself, and you *are* judging her. speak up if you believe you have something to say that could help her. if she doesn't want to hear it then obviously don't keep trying to tell her, but there's nothing wrong with pointing her hypocrisy out to her. you don't have to be mean about it, but there's no reason not to speak up. she broached the subject with you - tell her what you really think. > Along my weight loss journey... I've found that I have become a > little more judgmental about those people who are overweight but in [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > unhealthy eating choices. And from the spiel she gave me, she is > obviously in denial about how unhealthy she eats. Is that denial or ignorance? > Anyway, if I'd had the same observations/talks with her 2 years > ago... I wouldn't have been so judgmental. Yes, I would have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > So I was wondering... anybody else notice these types of thoughts > creeping up? Absolutely. It's normal, I think. But do try to suppress any comments. People don't want to hear it. what makes me the saddest is when i go to wal-mart and i see the maaaassssively overweight folks in those motorized scooters with pizzas and orange soda in their baskets :( you just wanna tell them there is a choice, yanno? > what makes me the saddest is when i go to wal-mart and i see the > maaaassssively overweight folks in those motorized scooters with pizzas > and orange soda in their baskets :( you just wanna tell them there is > a choice, yanno? ===================== We see them here all the time as well. We also see them at the Chinese Restaurant we frequent as they wheeze and gasp their way back and forth with plate after plate after plate of food from the food bar. Worse yet so many of them are already too sick to hold jobs, even in their 30s, and end up on SSD. Guess who ends up supporting these people and paying for the vast quantities of food most consume? US! One of the boys my son grew up with is now 500 lbs and can't lift himself off the livingroom sofa. He lives on that sofa and is being taken care of by his 71 year old mother. He's too fat to even bathe or wipe himself. He's been on SSD now for at least 15 years due to his obesity. Sometimes it's hard to be sympathetic. I think we need some kind of laws to force people like this into hospitals to reduce them to a manageable size. It wouldn't only preserve and lengthen their lives, but save the country millions in SSD and medical expenses for these people. Who do you think has to pay higher premiums to cover their expenses? US! And unlike many illnesses and diseases morbid obesity is self induced. No one can tell me this 500 lb man I know woke up one morning that size. What about how these people, no longer able to take care of themselves, destroy the lives of their family caretakers? Do they even consider what they're doing to their family? This man's mother's life has been destroyed by this situation. She's like an unpaid nurse 24/7. She has no life. One of the nurses up at the hospital told me they're seeing more and more morbid obesity and the diseases that accompany it in the past 10 years than ever before... where does it end? SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb ========================================== > of them are already too sick to hold jobs, even in their 30s, and end up on > SSD. Guess who ends up supporting these people and paying for the vast > quantities of food most consume? US! One of the boys my son grew up with It is completely possible that one day I would end up like some of those people. So, I am glad to know that I would be supported then, at least to some minimal extent. Signature223/173.0/180 > > of them are already too sick to hold jobs, even in their 30s, and end up on > > SSD. Guess who ends up supporting these people and paying for the vast [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > those people. So, I am glad to know that I would be supported then, at > least to some minimal extent. ================================== Once you reach the 400+ lb size an are no longer able to "move" you will be supported by the taxpayers. Should you reach that weight someday, I hope you don't take down some innocent person (with you) like this man in NY is doing...... SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb ========================================== > X-No-Archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > we need some kind of laws to force people like this into hospitals to reduce > them to a manageable size. Yeah, but what if they're just unfortunates who have faithfully followed their diets and yet, somehow, the diet never worked for them? Haven't you ever heard of anyone like that? Anyway, even if we did live in a society which could involuntarily commit people for the crime of being fat, they'd almost certainly just gain the weight back once they were released. They'd have a better chance of keeping the weight off with bariatric surgery than if they are just turned loose with photocopy of the current dietary guidelines and an injunction to exercise more. Martha Signature"ALPO is 99 cents a can. That's over SEVEN dog dollars!!" Revek - ASDLC > > X-No-Archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > their diets and yet, somehow, the diet never worked for them? Haven't you > ever heard of anyone like that? With very, very few exceptions (if any), nobody becomes morbidly obese by "faithfully following their diets". The 500 lb guy in this example is on the "sit on my butt, and eat massive quantities of food diet". It would not be surprising to find that he has some signficant mental health problems, and eating food is the only source of pleasure in his life. GG > Anyway, even if we did live in a society which could involuntarily commit > people for the crime of being fat, they'd almost certainly just gain the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Martha [quoting me quoting Wysong] > > Yeah, but what if they're just unfortunates who have faithfully followed > > their diets and yet, somehow, the diet never worked for them? Haven't you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > be surprising to find that he has some signficant mental health problems, > and eating food is the only source of pleasure in his life. <whoosh> Martha Signature"ALPO is 99 cents a can. That's over SEVEN dog dollars!!" Revek - ASDLC > With very, very few exceptions (if any), nobody becomes morbidly obese by > "faithfully following their diets". The 500 lb guy in this example is on > the "sit on my butt, and eat massive quantities of food diet". It would not > be surprising to find that he has some signficant mental health problems, > and eating food is the only source of pleasure in his life. I have to respectfully disagree with you. People do not become 500 lbs behemoths because they like eating due to purely mental problems. Here's about an experiment where normal weight prison inmates were asked to overeat and eat as much as they could. They did not become 500 lbs monsters. They could barely gain 25 lbs, felt awfully, hated food, and dreaded the experiment. After it was discontinued, they returned to normal weight. ===================================================================== `` Sims was interested in whether the metabolic differences observed between fat and thin people were the result or the cause of their body type. Put simply, he wanted to know whether people are born fat or made fat. He decided that the best way to sort this out was to convince a group of slim volunteers to eat themselves fat and to observe what happened to them when they reduced to their original weight. Sims was fortunate to have nearby a ready source of experimental subjects: the inmates at Vermont state prison, sufficient numbers of whom were willing to gorge themselves for science. At first the prisoners proved enthusiastic trenchermen, as much as doubling their usual daily intake of food. But as they fattened, they became increasingly reluctant to overeat. Most found it extremely difficult to gain weight, and eventually some started to drop out of the study. Only 20 made it through the requisite 200 days, achieving an average weight gain of 20-25lbs. Relieved of the high-calorie, low-exercise regimen, all but two of the inmates quickly dropped the newly acquired ballast. The pair of inmates who found it most difficult to lose weight were those who had experienced the least difficulty gaining weight in the first place. It was later discovered that both these men had a family history of obesity. >From this experiment Sims concluded that the body was remarkably well equipped to balance energy intake and output, and to reach an energy equilibrium, or "homeostasis", at which it felt naturally comfortable. What was particularly interesting was that body weight seemed somehow fixed, and was in most subjects resistant to change over the short term. The prisoners with obesity in their backgrounds were, it seemed, genetically inclined to reach homeostasis at a higher weight than were others; the high-calorie diet only helped manifest their genetic proclivity.'' Signature223/173.0/180 :: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:51:07 -0800, GaryG <sorrynoemail@NOSPAMX.com> :: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] :: food, and dreaded the experiment. After it was discontinued, they :: returned to normal weight. What is your point, Ig? Are you saying that these prison inmates are mentally ill? I'd have to say I agree with GG. The guy must have real problems to eat himself to 500 lbs. He is certainly NOT like those prison inmates you mention. I'd say that anyone who becomes very large has at least some issue that somehow is dealt with by food. The article below would suggest that I ate myself up to 367 lbs because my body was somehow genetically "comfortable" at that weight.....{yet, I feel so much better now without all of those pounds.} Do you really believe that? How about - I liked eating and didn't want to exercise. Maybe all but two of those prison inmate didn't like eating as much as I do. I'd say I'm wired a bit differently than most, and that could definitely be some "mental" thing. :: ===================================================================== :: `` Sims was interested in whether the metabolic differences observed [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] :: -- :: 223/173.0/180 "What is your point, Ig? Are you saying that these prison inmates are mentally ill? I'd have to say I agree with GG. The guy must have real problems to eat himself to 500 lbs. He is certainly NOT like those prison inmates you mention. I'd say that anyone who becomes very large has at least some issue that somehow is dealt with by food. The article below would suggest that I ate myself up to 367 lbs because my body was somehow genetically "comfortable" at that weight.....{yet, I feel so much better now without all of those pounds.} Do you really believe that? How about - I liked eating and didn't want to exercise. Maybe all but two of those prison inmate didn't like eating as much as I do. I'd say I'm wired a bit differently than most, and that could definitely be some "mental" thing. " An even better question is who the hell was it that actually did this study and has it been confirmed/accepted by the scientific community? Hard to imagine this hasn't been tried before. And if the results were as conclusive and the same, I would have thought this would have been widely reported/known, but this is the first I've heard of it. Anyone else? > "What is your point, Ig? Are you saying that these prison inmates are > mentally ill? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > widely reported/known, but this is the first I've heard of it. Anyone > else? This is really more for Ig (something's gone haywire in my newsreader, and neither my post nor his is showing up). It's possible that the prisoners couldn't gain weight, because they were *not* mentally ill. One could hypothesize that mental illness (in some cases) can interfere with the normal bodily feedback mechanisms, allowing them to become morbidly obese despite the quality of life deterioration that occurs. FWIW - there have been studies indicating a link between obesity and mental illness. For instance: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=11466578 "Obesity and mental illness in a representative sample of young women. Becker ES, Margraf J, Turke V, Soeder U, Neumer S. Technische Universitat Dresden, Department of Clinical Psyvhology, D-01062 Dresden, Germany. OBJECTIVE: To investigate the relation between mental disorders and weight, especially obesity. DESIGN: Epidemiological study of mental disorders with a representative sample of young women. SUBJECTS: A total of 2064 women, age 18-25 y, living in Dresden, Germany. MEASUREMENTS: Verbal reports of body mass index, structured clinical interview for psychological disorders. RESULTS: We found an association between psychological disorders and weight. Obese women had the highest rate of mental disorders overall, and they had higher rates of all subgroups of mental disorders, although many differences were not statistically significant. Most importantly, obese women suffered from an anxiety disorder significantly more often than women who were not obese. The observed differences were independent of socioeconomic status. CONCLUSIONS: In young women, obesity is related to increased rates of mental disorders, most notably anxiety disorders. Future longitudinal research will have to determine the causal relationships behind this correlation." On the other hand, other studies have found no clear association: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2377306&dopt=Abstract "Obesity-depression associations in the population. Faith MS, Matz PE, Jorge MA. Obesity Research Center, St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center, New York, NY 10025, USA. This article summarizes data on the relationship between obesity and depression in the population. Both obesity and depression are increasingly prevalent and associated with numerous health complications including hypertension, coronary heart disease, and increased mortality. There does not appear to be a simple or single association between these disorders. Meta-analytic studies suggest no statistically significant relationship, although pooling all subjects may mask important variables that moderate or mediate potential covariations. Sociodemographic, psychosocial, and genetic factors may render certain obese individuals more prone to depression or vice versa. Physiological and behavioral variables that link obesity and depression have received limited study. There are likely multiple obesity-depression covariations in the population, rather than a single pattern of association. There is a need for longitudinal and mechanistic studies to understand casual pathways and greater collaboration between depression and obesity specialists." Of course, psychological illnesses are somewhat "plastic" in nature, and it's conceivable that they may some day identify super-morbidity as a mental illness. It would seem to meet the criteria for inclusion in their standard diagnostic codes, because it is a behavior pattern that endangers the patient and has a significant negative effect on quality of life. However, I doubt that it will ever be formally identified as a mental illness because of the political controversy that would be sure to occur. Too bad, because that might open up additional treatment options for those so afflicted. GG > An even better question is who the hell was it that actually did this > study and has it been confirmed/accepted by the scientific community? > Hard to imagine this hasn't been tried before. And if the results were > as conclusive and the same, I would have thought this would have been > widely reported/known, but this is the first I've heard of it. Anyone > else? ==================== I never heard of it. SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb ========================================== >:: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:51:07 -0800, GaryG <sorrynoemail@NOSPAMX.com> >:: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > What is your point, Ig? Are you saying that these prison inmates are > mentally ill? My point is that a biologically normal person who stuffs himself for mental reasons (being mentally ill or participating in an experiment), does not become superobese. > I'd have to say I agree with GG. The guy must have real problems to eat > himself to 500 lbs. He is certainly NOT like those prison inmates you > mention. Ys, he is not like them, and yet both he and those prisoners tried to do exactly the same thing, eat as much as possible. So, he must be different biologically. > I'd say that anyone who becomes very large has at least some issue > that somehow is dealt with by food. Possibly, but that is not the end of the story. > The article below would suggest that I ate myself up to 367 lbs > because my body was somehow genetically "comfortable" at that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > much as I do. I'd say I'm wired a bit differently than most, and that could > definitely be some "mental" thing. Why did you (or I) like eating so much? Signature223/173.0/180 >>:: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:51:07 -0800, GaryG <sorrynoemail@NOSPAMX.com> >>:: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > mental reasons (being mentally ill or participating in an experiment), > does not become superobese. Being mentally ill and participating in an experiment are not the same thing at all. It's what separates them. >> I'd have to say I agree with GG. The guy must have real problems to >> eat himself to 500 lbs. He is certainly NOT like those prison [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > do exactly the same thing, eat as much as possible. So, he must be > different biologically. No...the prisoners had a failsafe that stopped them while the mentally ill didn't. >> I'd say that anyone who becomes very large has at least some issue >> that somehow is dealt with by food. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Why did you (or I) like eating so much? Something about us that more normal people don't have about them. > >>:: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:51:07 -0800, GaryG <sorrynoemail@NOSPAMX.com> > >>:: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Something about us that more normal people don't have about them. There must be something that's hereditary that's involved with appetite. I have a nephew that can pack away a lot of food. He's quite heavy and is not very active. Many would have trouble eating the volumes of food that he does. He doesn't like being his size, but also doesn't want to change the way he eats. There doesn't appear to be any shut-off mechanism. I don't believe there is any mental dysfunction. He just loves to eat above everything else. >> Why did you (or I) like eating so much? > > Something about us that more normal people don't have about them. Well, Roger, you know what, I am still the same person I used to be, and still like eating. I eat to my heart's content. But I am slim and do not gain. Why? Because I do not eat carby foods. So, we could say that prior to dieting/LC, I was gaining because I ate wrong food (wrong for my body), not because of my psychology. Between now and say 2 years ago, I am the same person, the main difference is in what I eat. One factor changes the equation, and it is not psychology. (for me) Signature223/173.0/180 Ignoramus6625 <ignoramus6625@NOSPAM.6625.invalid> wrote in news:cubjhp$dbq $1@pita.alt.net: > One factor changes the equation, and it > is not psychology. (for me) I wonder, though, if that's the whole picture. Before you stopped eating high-carb foods, I presume you ate whatever appealed to you? Now, with LC, you are perhaps exercising some form of mental control that you didn't have before. Or maybe had but didn't exert before? This is interesting to me: What makes me decide to act in ways that improve my health vs. when I act in ways that decidedly do not. For example, the first time (of two) that I quit smoking, I made a snap decision on my way to a smoke break at work and quit cold turkey, which lasted for 7 years with no lapses. It was a true epiphany. Contrast that with the past several months that I've been eating things I shouldn't and only maintaining instead of continuing to lose. Just yesterday I had another similar epiphany, and I butched up. The epiphany: The choice to eat those things and/or in that quantity is self-loathing. Every bite is a little less self-respect. Refusing every bite is a little more strength of character, which begets more strength. Psychology's definitely at work here, with me. Maybe it is for you too? Cate > Ignoramus6625 <ignoramus6625@NOSPAM.6625.invalid> wrote in > news:cubjhp$dbq $1@pita.alt.net: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Cate I think pleasure and saiety play a huge role. Folks who like to eat get more and stronger pleasure out of the act of eating, and the tastes of foods. Which is not so bad a thing, but mix in the lack of saiety-- the natural shut off signal-- and things begin to snowball. The psychology of desensitizing yourself to the pleasure is one tool, lowcarb (reinstating a natural shut off signal by dampening the role of insulin) is another. Sometimes people only need one, sometimes both. Sometimes a person could need one or both at various times depending on their stress levels and general health, or environment. --? revek "Time is an illusion perpetrated by the manufacturers of space." >> Ignoramus6625 <ignoramus6625@NOSPAM.6625.invalid> wrote in >> news:cubjhp$dbq $1@pita.alt.net: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > could need one or both at various times depending on their stress > levels and general health, or environment. Lady - you need to get back to posting more! > Lady - you need to get back to posting more! <blush> That is high praise indeed. ;) --? revek There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at math and those that are not. > The psychology > of desensitizing yourself to the pleasure is one tool, lowcarb > (reinstating a natural shut off signal by dampening the role of > insulin) is another. Sometimes people only need one, sometimes both. > Sometimes a person could need one or both at various times depending > on their stress levels and general health, or environment. Amen. I love food, and I love eating. Even when I'm thin. Contrast that with when I was really fat: I not only didn't feel satiety, I also didn't taste what I was eating. Slowing down and becoming more sensitive to what I was shoveling in my mouth would have meant recognizing it was 1) too much and 2) mostly junk. I ate to get the feelings (or non- feelings) that that kind of eating produced. Now I eat to 1) taste the food and 2) for fuel. Cate > > The psychology > > of desensitizing yourself to the pleasure is one tool, lowcarb [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Cate Exactly. Did you happen to read what I wrote a few days ago about my thin relatives who love food? Shovelers/bingers/overeaters often don't take the time to actually taste what they're eating, which is why I think enjoying food has nothing to do with being fat. SignatureMichelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws. > Exactly. Did you happen to read what I wrote a few days ago about my > thin relatives who love food? No, didn't see it. Shovelers/bingers/overeaters often > don't take the time to actually taste what they're eating, which is > why I think enjoying food has nothing to do with being fat. Yep, I agree. In general. Cate > Ignoramus6625 <ignoramus6625@NOSPAM.6625.invalid> wrote in news:cubjhp$dbq > $1@pita.alt.net: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I wonder, though, if that's the whole picture. Before you stopped eating > high-carb foods, I presume you ate whatever appealed to you? http://igor.chudov.com/weightloss/ When I was fat, I ate whatever I wanted whenever I wanted (including in the middle of the night). Then I lost weight and maintained for a while by eating less. Then I switched to LC to not be hungry all the time. > Now, with LC, you are perhaps exercising some form of mental control that > you didn't have before. Or maybe had but didn't exert before? It is not terribly difficult, since I like eating fatty things. > This is interesting to me: What makes me decide to act in ways that > improve my health vs. when I act in ways that decidedly do not. For > example, the first time (of two) that I quit smoking, I made a snap > decision on my way to a smoke break at work and quit cold turkey, > which lasted for 7 years with no lapses. It was a true epiphany. Exactly. > Contrast that with the past several months that I've been eating things I > shouldn't and only maintaining instead of continuing to lose. Just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Psychology's definitely at work here, with me. Maybe it is for you too? Maybe, but the point is, I am not hungry and I am not gaining, and eating to the heart's content. When I ate carbs and ate to my heart's content, I was obese. Signature223/173.0/180 Ignoramus6625 <ignoramus6625@NOSPAM.6625.invalid> wrote in news:cubrtc$skt $0@pita.alt.net: > Maybe, but the point is, I am not hungry and I am not gaining, and > eating to the heart's content. When I ate carbs and ate to my heart's > content, I was obese. Right. I was responding to your assertion (a response to Roger) that psychology has nothing to do with your having been fat, or having overeaten to the point of obesity: 'So, we could say that prior to dieting/LC, I was gaining because I ate wrong food (wrong for my body), not because of my psychology.' I was just wondering aloud if psychology was truly absent--as I think you said it was--from your previously unhealthy eating habits. I didn't explain very clearly my line of thought, but I suppose I meant that if one can suddenly make a conscious choice to not be fat, it's possible that one was previously sub- or unconsciously making a choice to be fat. By doing the things that made one fat. Cate > Ignoramus6625 <ignoramus6625@NOSPAM.6625.invalid> wrote in news:cubrtc$skt > $0@pita.alt.net: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > possible that one was previously sub- or unconsciously making a choice to > be fat. By doing the things that made one fat. Psychology comes in now in the sense that I am motivated to keep weight off. For completely rational utility maximizing reasons, such as wanting to be healthy, to look good etc. Food never had any particular emotional meaning to me, except that I liked eating (and still do). When I was fat, I probably did eat to console myself when I was upset and such, which I no longer do, but that was not very often. Signature223/173.0/180 >> Ignoramus6625 <ignoramus6625@NOSPAM.6625.invalid> wrote in >> news:cubjhp$dbq $1@pita.alt.net: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > eating to the heart's content. When I ate carbs and ate to my heart's > content, I was obese. See what revek wrote. > Between now and say 2 years ago, I am the same person, the main > difference is in what I eat. One factor changes the equation, and it > is not psychology. (for me) > 223/173.0/180 --------------------- Excellent point. It may be WHAT (most) people eat that contributes more to obesity then any other factor. But then what of people like myself who can gain on meat/fat with very low carb intake? To *NOT* gain on strict LC I had to stay under 1200/1300c a day. Too lose at least 1 lb a week I had to stay under 1000c. a day LC. Had strict LC kept working for me I would have reached my goal weight in the spring of 2002. :*( SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs ========================================== > X-No-Archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > stay under 1000c. a day LC. Had strict LC kept working for me I would have > reached my goal weight in the spring of 2002. :*( These are not unreasonable numbers for a not too muscular woman of your age if you do not do a lot of exercise. Signature223/173.0/180 >>> Why did you (or I) like eating so much? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > difference is in what I eat. One factor changes the equation, and it > is not psychology. (for me) That seems like a good point, Ig. >>>> Why did you (or I) like eating so much? >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > That seems like a good point, Ig. You know, just like you (if I interpret you correctly), I thought that psychology was the center of the weight issue, but I no longer think so. Signature223/173.0/180 Roger, I think you're missing the point of the experiment somewhat. The conclusion drawn by the experimenter, as I understand it, was that people who don't have a particular neurological/physiological issue have a difficult time becoming morbidly obese ******even when they're trying, consciously, to do so*******, because some kind of "appetite control" mechanism kicks in, and that people whose "appetite control" mechanism, whatever it is, is somehow impaired have to exercise a great deal of conscious control to ***not*** become morbidly obese. I think it's a complicated experiment. However, I do think that there's some kind of physiological, neurological, and/or emotional difference between people who just "love to eat and don't like to exercise" and people who don't have a physical, psychological, or emotional feeling of satiety, ever. I know many food writers and professional chefs who love to eat, and love to eat a lot of calorie-dense food, and who get very little exercise. Almost none of them are morbidly obese, though many of them are overweight. I've been overweight for much of my life, but I have never been able to eat more than 2,000 calories at a single meal, even when I'm having an indulgent, calorie-dense meal, because I stop eating when I'm full. I've always been able to stop eating when I'm full. I know that there are many people who don't, for whatever reason, have that "shutoff" mechanism, but I can't imagine myself ever becoming morbidly obese because I just couldn't fit enough food into my stomach to maintain that high a body weight. I would just be too uncomfortable. T. > Roger, I think you're missing the point of the experiment somewhat. > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > to maintain that high a body weight. I would just be too > uncomfortable. Interesting comments, T. Thanks. . The prisoners with obesity in their backgrounds > were, it seemed, genetically inclined to reach homeostasis at a higher > weight than were others; the high-calorie diet only helped manifest > their genetic proclivity.'' =================== This was very interesting. Once I hit 165 lbs on Atkins and stopped losing weight, I had to actually STARVE at 900c. to 1000c. calories a day to manage a 1 lb a week loss. The side effects were awful at my age, and so I couldn't continue. I can easily *maintain* on LC at 1200c. a day. I am now about the size both of my grandmothers were at age 60! All my Aunts weigh between 150 and 170, with one exception who is well over 200 lbs again. My mother was the oddball of the family and never weighed more than 120 lbs her entire life. At 86, she's still around 120 lbs, the lightest of all the women on both sides of the family. SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb ========================================== > X-No-Archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > weight, I had to actually STARVE at 900c. to 1000c. calories a day to manage > a 1 lb a week loss. How long did this last? Signature223/173.0/180 > > X-No-Archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > How long did this last? ====================== Not long. By the 9 or 10 th day I would stop the insanity and up the calories - the lb would *be back* in a few days. Like an alcoholic who thinks it will be different the next time, I would try again, with the same results. I finally stayed at around 1200c (with about 30carbs a day - some days a few more, some days a few less) and simply "maintained" until I gave up for the month of Dec/04. I needed a break from dieting. MY NP thought a break in the diet may help end the plateau I was stuck on. I had been dieting LC for 2 full years without weight loss at that point. Being off LC for Dec I gained 6 lbs. Did I eat like a pig every day? No. I did eat a nice Xmas dinner with all the trimmings, had some pie I made, hubby and I shared a bag of walnuts that month, had sweet potatoes w/dinner one night, snacked on cheese a few times, had Fiber One cereal for breakfast (one more egg, breakfast sausage or slice of bacon would have pushed me over the edge), a spaghetti/sausage dinner one night, a piece of chocolate Cake on New Years Day. I did not count calories or carbs for the month of Dec. Once I reach goal weight, if that ever happens, I will have no problem maintaining on 1200c a day, and only having such hi-carb, hi-calorie foods as "treats." But to strict LC for the rest of my life.... I don't think so unless it gets to where my life depends on it for some reason. When I say strict LC I mean 30 carbs or less per day. SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs ========================================== > X-No-Archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Not long. By the 9 or 10 th day I would stop the insanity and up the > calories - the lb would *be back* in a few days. That's not long enough to say that it "does not work". > Like an alcoholic who thinks it will be different the next time, I > would try again, with the same results. I finally stayed at around [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > spaghetti/sausage dinner one night, a piece of chocolate Cake on New > Years Day. I did not count calories or carbs for the month of Dec. our perceptions of just how much we are eating, are not very accurate. > Once I reach goal weight, if that ever happens, I will have no problem > maintaining on 1200c a day, and only having such hi-carb, hi-calorie foods > as "treats." But to strict LC for the rest of my life.... I don't think > so unless it gets to where my life depends on it for some reason. When I > say strict LC I mean 30 carbs or less per day. I usually eat about 60 carbs per day, but I am a 33 year old man and I do exercise. Signature223/173.0/180 > >====================== > > Not long. By the 9 or 10 th day I would stop the insanity and up the > > calories - the lb would *be back* in a few days. > > That's not long enough to say that it "does not work". ## I didn't SAY it didn't work. You missed some of my posts. **IT DID WORK** but I then I had the dizziness, the heart palpitations, headaches that Aspirin didn't stop and I was cold all the time.... Uh,... no thanks. After a few days of that I upped the calories to 1200 and these symptoms would vanish in a day or two. My NP thought those symptoms were not a good sign, especially for someone my age (I was 58 at the time). The heart palps' really concerned her as I never had them until I tried to exist on less than 1000 calories a day. And yes, I took a vitamin-mineral supplement. > > Like an alcoholic who thinks it will be different the next time, I > > would try again, with the same results. I finally stayed at around [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > spaghetti/sausage dinner one night, a piece of chocolate Cake on New > > Years Day. I did not count calories or carbs for the month of Dec. > our perceptions of just how much we are eating, are not very accurate. $$ This is true so that's why I wrote everything down (learned that at WW) until about six months ago.... > > Once I reach goal weight, if that ever happens, I will have no problem > > maintaining on 1200c a day, and only having such hi-carb, hi-calorie foods > > as "treats." But to strict LC for the rest of my life.... I don't think > > so unless it gets to where my life depends on it for some reason. When I > > say strict LC I mean 30 carbs or less per day. > I usually eat about 60 carbs per day, but I am a 33 year old man and I > do exercise. $$ And I'm a 60 year old post-meno women on thyroid meds who walks 1.5 to 3 miles a day at least 6 days a week, does all the yard work, mows the lawn with a push mower (3/4 acre), cleans the house, gardens, cooks, shops.... and wastes a few hours a day on the PC. :-) No matter how active we are YOU as a young man will lose weight a hell of a lost faster than I can/will. > 223/173.0/180 SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs ========================================== > With very, very few exceptions (if any), nobody becomes morbidly obese by > "faithfully following their diets". The 500 lb guy in this example is on > the "sit on my butt, and eat massive quantities of food diet". It would not > be surprising to find that he has some signficant mental health problems, > and eating food is the only source of pleasure in his life. ==================== A little more on this 500lb man. I've known this man since he was 8 years old. He was already overweight then, and has always been overweight. He's a quiet, almost shy person but did have male friends when he was in school. When he tried to date as a teen he told me, all the girls had excuses and refused to date him. They would say things like, "I really like you Keith, but like a brother." He dropped out of college after the first year and worked for the Post Office in NYC until 1988 or 89 when he weighed about 350 lbs. He was pretty large then and developing spinal problems. Once he could no longer work he stayed home, watched TV, read books, rented movies and ate his mother said. He refused all help. He wouldn't even walk to the store a few blocks away to pick up items she needed. Then he refused to take out the trash. By 400lbs he wouldn't leave the house at all for any reason. He had excellent health insurance but would do nothing about his weight. The plan even paid for psychiatric treatment, but he wouldn't do anything to help himself. His mother's life is as destroyed as his own. These are her golden years and they're being wasted taking care of this man who refuses to help himself..... SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb ========================================== It's his mother's fault that he is destroying her life. She does not have to enable him like this. Sounds like codependency to me. In news:LIGdnZLiPuPw0JTfRVn-uw@heartoftn.net, Wysong *~ <P@P> stated | A little more on this 500lb man. I've known this man since he was 8 | years old. He was already overweight then, and has always been [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] | 171/ 165 / 140 lb | ========================================== > It's his mother's fault that he is destroying her life. She does not have > to enable him like this. Sounds like codependency to me. ========================= We've told her that over the years but there is no one else to take care of this huge mound of human adipose tissue on her sofa. He can't even get up to use the toilet. He craps on a sheet of some kind which she discards, then cleans his butt. I would die! What would happen if she refused to take care of him? And how can she get rid of him when he can't even walk? She can't find him an apartment because his check wouldn't cover the NYC rents and utilities. There would be nothing left to pay a private nurse. He would die since he can't make it to the sink for water, no less the store for food. I told her she needs to get him into a nursing home, a hospital or something - before she looses her mind or drops dead trying to roll him over to bathe him. I don't think the general public or the obese themselves are aware of what the care takers of these people go through. She gets defensive if anyone suggests she start feeding him small portions..... maybe they're BOTH a little crazy by now. :o( SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs ========================================== > X-No-Archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > defensive if anyone suggests she start feeding him small portions..... > maybe they're BOTH a little crazy by now. :o( If my son ever, God forbid, gets into the same situation, I would wipe his butt also. i whose son still needs his butt wiped Signature223/173.0/180 > > X-No-Archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > defensive if anyone suggests she start feeding him small portions..... > > maybe they're BOTH a little crazy by now. :o( ========================= > If my son ever, God forbid, gets into the same situation, I would wipe > his butt also. > > i > whose son still needs his butt wiped ================================== You're not 71 years old with all your dreams and plans destroyed by someone. Your son is not a 45 years old man who refuses help..... especially when the help is out there! Sorry, it's easy to talk when you're not in the situation. With an injured person or some recovering from surgery, you know the stressful situation is temporary, and can "get through it." Even cleaning their butts and dumping pails of urine. But when you know the problem is PERMANENT because the person refuses to do anything about their sorry situation - you would feel differently unless you're another Mother Teresa. Lets be honest,... few people would not resent the 500lb person laying there gorging on food, refusing help - while their life is destroyed taking care of said person. SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs ========================================== Since he apparently can't go shopping by himself somebody has to be giving him all that food. All four of my children are independent, self-supporting people, but I suppose I didn't have anything to do with that, it was all luck according to you. In news:Mv6dnXs7jcCH6JffRVn-3A@heartoftn.net, Wysong *~ <P@P> stated | You're not 71 years old with all your dreams and plans destroyed by | someone. Your son is not a 45 years old man who refuses help..... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] | Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs | ========================================== > Since he apparently can't go shopping by himself somebody has to be giving > him all that food. ## Wow! What an observation! Read my posts before making such statements. A mutual friend told me if she doesn't give him the food he wants he begs, pleads and then fights with her. He'll throw tantrums and go one for hours. Cut her some slack for cripe's sake - he fed himself until he reached almost 400 lbs., and she's a 71 year old women with heart disease. All four of my children are independent, self-supporting > people, but I suppose I didn't have anything to do with that, it was all > luck according to you. ## Oh, how can I say you were LUCKY when I didn't even know you had 4 children - or any children? Please don't confuse your posters. I don't even know you. SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs ========================================== > X-No-Archive: yes > >> >========================= [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> > defensive if anyone suggests she start feeding him small portions..... >> > maybe they're BOTH a little crazy by now. :o( If her son is getting a check he must be on some sort of public assistance. She should look into getting a home health care worker to help her out. If he balks just slip a little Xanax in his food, he won't care who is wiping his a.s. > > X-No-Archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > we need some kind of laws to force people like this into hospitals to reduce > > them to a manageable size. ==================== > Yeah, but what if they're just unfortunates who have faithfully followed > their diets and yet, somehow, the diet never worked for them? Haven't you > ever heard of anyone like that? $$ Of course! Haven't we all? When you see your weight *gain* is uncontrollable and reaching deadly numbers (250+) that's the time to see a weight specialist. Almost all hospitals/medical centers have them. Strange how these huge people who can't lose weight at home all do in the hospital. > Anyway, even if we did live in a society which could involuntarily commit > people for the crime of being fat, $$ Crime? Suicide is not a CRIME unless looked at from the religious perspective where it's a moral issue, or sin. Crime has nothing to do with it. Once they become unable to work and start living off the taxpayers then they become everyone's problem i.e. financial burden. Plus someone, usually a family member or spouse has their lives destroyed taking care of these morbidly obese people. Have you considered that? they'd almost certainly just gain the > weight back once they were released. They'd have a better chance of > keeping the weight off with bariatric surgery than if they are just turned > loose with photocopy of the current dietary guidelines and an injunction > to exercise more. $$ Then perhaps Ins. Companies should be forced to pay for such life-saving surgery as they do hysterectomies, mastectomies etc. SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb ========================================== > X-No-Archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > morbid obesity and the diseases that accompany it in the past 10 years than > ever before... where does it end? A couple of years ago, my son and I were driving along a local road hereabouts. We were going up a hill, and noticed two women in electric carts attempting to negotiate along the edge of the roadway (there was no sidewalk in that area). From about 75 yards away, I pointed them out to my son, with a comment about how we should be thankful that we don't have the health problems that those poor women were afflicted with. As we got closer to the women and slowed down for a stop sign, they drove their electric carts into a nearby parking lot...whereupon, they both stopped and lit up cigarettes. Instantly, my sympathy for them disappeared, and was replaced by irritation. At close range, it was obvious that they were both morbidly obese smokers, and it was highly likely that my hard-earned tax dollars had paid for their electric scooters (and, possibly, their cigarettes). It's not right, IMO, that we should be subsidizing people who choose to live such unhealthy lifestyles. Without the government subsidizing their electric scooters, they would at least have been forced to get up off of their butts and walk to the store for their smokes. Just my $.02. GG > As we got closer to the women and slowed down for a stop sign, they drove > their electric carts into a nearby parking lot...whereupon, they both > stopped and lit up cigarettes. ** OMG I see this all the time in the parking lots of Malls. Huge obese people in these carts, some with oxygen tanks and they're smoking! They shut the tank off and push the tube thing away so they can inhale their poison. Their companions helping. One day one of them will blow themselves to smithereens.... What we can't understand is why the hell they're in carts instead of walking in the first place. We're also subsidizing the electric carts the stores have for these obese people. Yet they gasp and wheeze their way around the all-you-can-eat bars on their own two legs. It may sound cruel but it's true! Instantly, my sympathy for them disappeared, > and was replaced by irritation. At close range, it was obvious that they > were both morbidly obese smokers, and it was highly likely that my > hard-earned tax dollars had paid for their electric scooters (and, possibly, > their cigarettes). ** ... and their high blood pressure medications, their hip and knee replacements, their Lipitor, their diabetic medications and amputations, the meds for their bronchitis and emphysema, their chemo for lung cancer, special shoes for their weight damaged feet...... > It's not right, IMO, that we should be subsidizing people who choose to live > such unhealthy lifestyles. Without the government subsidizing their > electric scooters, they would at least have been forced to get up off of > their butts and walk to the store for their smokes. ** Amen! BTW, the next time you see one of them at the grocery store in her/his electric cart just check out what they have in their baskets. I assure you it's not lean loin-of-pork's, fish, heads of cauliflower, fresh fruit, Special-K cereal etc. > Just my $.02. > > GG SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs ========================================== I have to agree with Roger, in that unsolicited advice usually is rarely going to be well received. If anyone asks me, I'll give them advice. Or if they want to tell me how LC is going to kill me, then I give em hell. Otherwise, there really isn't much you can do. The person the OP talked about is living in their own little world, complete with rationalizations that let them continue to do so. I have a very good friend I've known for 40+ years. In high school he was a great athlete. Now, he's 100lbs overweight and can't even walk a couple blocks without getting exhausted. He's starting to have problems with his knees and circulation. Both I and another close friend have tried to talk to him, but he has basicly the same answer that the OP heard from her co-worker, which is that he's really eating OK, basicly pretty low carb, just needs to get more excercise, which he can't do because of his limitations. Of course, I know it's not true. I offered to help him get started, eat meals together, etc, but to no avail. Unless people want to help themselves, there isn't much you can do. Of course, I know it's not > true. I offered to help him get started, eat meals together, etc, but > to no avail. Unless people want to help themselves, there isn't much > you can do. ======================= And when they don't help themselves, but can, can we call them selfish? When they reach morbidly obese weights others suffer because of them, like 500 lb Keith's mother who should be enjoying these golden years she worked so hard for. She has to hire someone to come in and take care of him just to stay overnight somewhere. Her trips to travel are all dead. Her plans to spend summers in the Mountains were dashed - she sold her summer home in the Catskills. What about her? And the taxpayers, you and I are now supporting this huge "helpless" man who refuses to help himself. There's something wrong with the whole picture. I don't believe these huge people have genetic problems. Only a small number possibly do. Did these "get fat" genes suddenly appear out of nowhere in these last 2 generations? We have more morbidly obese people in the USA than ever before. If this were hereditary our weight problem would be an old one, not a new one. I'm talking morbid obesity now, not the harmless plumpness many older people become. SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb ========================================== What's the difference if we support him, or a single mom who keeps having more kids than she can afford? What's the difference if we support a skinny little man who is scamming a disability? What's the difference if we support a drug addict, an alcoholic, or any host of things? None, except there's a hell of lot more of them then there is of the "huge helpless man." -- Cheri Wysong *~ wrote in message ... >the Catskills. What about her? And the taxpayers, you and I are now >supporting this huge "helpless" man who refuses to help himself. There's [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >171/ 165 / 140 lb >========================================== > What's the difference if we support him, or a single mom who keeps > having more kids than she can afford? $$ Don't welfare mothers only have 2 years on the dole now? I'm also against this welfare system we have as it encourages single parent families that live in poverty. Obese people can be a financial burdens all their life, and certainly would have higher medical bills than a young women producing out-of-wedlock-children. Again, you failed to address the lives the morbidly obese have a negative effect on such as spouses, children and other caretakers. What's the difference if we > support a skinny little man who is scamming a disability? $$ Are you looking for excuses to support those who ATE themselves into dependency? What's the > difference if we support a drug addict, an alcoholic, or any host of > things? $$ You tell me the difference. Shall we support everyone who refuses to help themselves? Why should any of us work then? Let's all find some dole and get a free ride! None, except there's a hell of lot more of them then there is of > the "huge helpless man." $$ And you know this how? Are there any statistics on just how many obese are out there on SSD? Again, you failed to address the *OTHER* lives ruined by having the burden of a 500 lb person existing in your living room, crapping on a "sheet," urinating in a pail and having to clean them like babies.... give me a break! SignatureWysong Age 60. Height 5'6" Starting date: 1/8/05 171/ 165 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs ========================================== >X-No-Archive: yes >$$ Don't welfare mothers only have 2 years on the dole now? I'm also >against this welfare system we have as it encourages single parent families [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the morbidly obese have a negative effect on such as spouses, children and >other caretakers. No more than any of the above, and how have you addressed the issue, other than to be a "fat basher?" >$$ Are you looking for excuses to support those who ATE themselves into >dependency? Are you looking for excuses to degrade people? If you take care of your own weight, that's all that's required of you. >What's the >> difference if we support a drug addict, an alcoholic, or any host of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >help themselves? Why should any of us work then? Let's all find some dole >and get a free ride! You tell me YOUR solution, without singling out the obese. >$$ And you know this how? Are there any statistics on just how many obese >are out there on SSD? Again, you failed to address the *OTHER* lives >ruined by having the burden of a 500 lb person existing in your living room, >crapping on a "sheet," urinating in a pail and having to clean them like >babies.... give me a break! Any thinking person would know this, which probably excludes you. Ruined lives come from many places including someone stoned out of their mind, stealing the families possessions etc., for drug money, committing crimes on the general public to get their fix, and a whole host of other behaviors. Difference is, is doesn't show like fat does, which people like you think gives them a free pass to degrade someone. >-- >Wysong [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs >========================================== > For instance: > There is this lady at my work who is 27. She's probably got 45 lbs to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > She has bags of chips... fast food burgers & fries... Twinkies or cookies... > soda... A lot of times people don't realize that a little here and there adds up to a lot. Ex., one can of pop is 150 calories so substitute water for one can of pop every day for a year and you could lose 150*365/3500 = 15 pounds in a year without changing anything else. SignatureNo Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes Gary, thanks, great links on mental illness. I am reposting the fragment about the prisoners: `` Sims was interested in whether the metabolic differences observed between fat and thin people were the result or the cause of their body type. Put simply, he wanted to know whether people are born fat or made fat. He decided that the best way to sort this out was to convince a group of slim volunteers to eat themselves fat and to observe what happened to them when they reduced to their original weight. Sims was fortunate to have nearby a ready source of experimental subjects: the inmates at Vermont state prison, sufficient numbers of whom were willing to gorge themselves for science. At first the prisoners proved enthusiastic trenchermen, as much as doubling their usual daily intake of food. But as they fattened, they became increasingly reluctant to overeat. Most found it extremely difficult to gain weight, and eventually some started to drop out of the study. Only 20 made it through the requisite 200 days, achieving an average weight gain of 20-25lbs. Relieved of the high-calorie, low-exercise regimen, all but two of the inmates quickly dropped the newly acquired ballast. The pair of inmates who found it most difficult to lose weight were those who had experienced the least difficulty gaining weight in the first place. It was later discovered that both these men had a family history of obesity. >From this experiment Sims concluded that the body was remarkably well equipped to balance energy intake and output, and to reach an energy equilibrium, or "homeostasis", at which it felt naturally comfortable. What was particularly interesting was that body weight seemed somehow fixed, and was in most subjects resistant to change over the short term. The prisoners with obesity in their backgrounds were, it seemed, genetically inclined to reach homeostasis at a higher weight than were others; the high-calorie diet only helped manifest their genetic proclivity.'' > Along my weight loss journey... I've found that I have become a little more > judgmental about those people who are overweight but in denial about it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > There is this lady at my work who is 27. She's probably got 45 lbs to > drop. She claims she needs to lose 30. You don't know what weight she feels most comfortable or healthy at, nor what weight her doctor feels it would be good for her to maintain. That's her business, not yours. > She's started talking to me about > her exercise regimen because she's noticed my weight loss and is looking for > encouragement. I did mention to her that from what I've experienced, it is > much easier to lose weight through dietary changes than through exercise > alone (although I think exercise is important and applaud her efforts). She > then goes into this rant about how she already eats healthy, blah blah blah, Well, if she says this, you might think about saying, "Gee, I've noticed you eating junk food here in the office. You know, it's easy to let that stuff creep up on you!" and letting it go at that. > she's just become more sedentary and she knows she just needs to exercise. > We often eat lunch together in the lunch room. > She has bags of chips... fast food burgers & fries... Twinkies or cookies... > soda... > That's not ALL of what she eats. She'll also eat homemade sandwiches > sometimes, but she's always got a bag of chips on the side or a cupcake or > she'll have a little of whatever junkfood happens to be available for > employees that day in the lunch room. > It just seems like she's making such frequent (daily or more often) > unhealthy eating choices. And from the spiel she gave me, she is obviously > in denial about how unhealthy she eats. I think you could mention, once or twice, that her intentions and her actual behavior seem a little at variance with each other. Assuming she brings up the topic herself, of course. > Anyway, if I'd had the same observations/talks with her 2 years ago... I > wouldn't have been so judgmental. Yes, I would have recognized that she ate > some junk food (far more than I used to eat, and I weighed quite a bit > more). But I wouldn't have seen her as being quite so overweight as I do > now, and I wouldn't have felt as strongly about her dietary choices as I do > now. This is the part I don't get. What difference does it make to you what she eats? I mean, let's be frank--you're 30 pounds over ****your**** personal weight target, and so is she. It's not like you're going to have to do her work for her because she has rendered herself immobile because of excess weight or anything... > I haven't really said anything to her about her food choices when I see her > eating that stuff. It wasn't until after she gave me that whole speech [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So I was wondering... anybody else notice these types of thoughts creeping > up? After having dealt out the "tough love" above, I do want to say that I think that it's perfectly natural when one has figured something out for oneself to want to spread the good news to others, and to be impatient with their lack of understanding. Keep up your own good work, and let's hope that she decides to use you as a positive role model! T. |
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