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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / February 2005weight lifting and LC?
As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet before in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program detailed by Lyle McDonald (as can be seen in misc.fitness.weights). Anyway, now that I'm doing straight LC I've found that my stamina is way down. My muscles burn sooner and it's harder to maintain the reps with heavy weights. It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about using Vanadyl Sulfate to aid in insulin uptake. Is this true, or still recommended? Any other ideas? Thanks for any help, Mark 260/240/200 since: 18/01/2005 > As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet before > in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program detailed by Lyle > McDonald (as can be seen in misc.fitness.weights). Anyway, now that I'm > doing straight LC I've found that my stamina is way down. My muscles > burn sooner and it's harder to maintain the reps with heavy weights. It is very difficult to build muscle while you are dieting to lose weight. You may be better off to adjust your goal to maintaining muscle mass until you have reached goal weight. > It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about using Vanadyl > Sulfate to aid in insulin uptake. Is this true, or still recommended? Vanadyl Sulfate aids in glucose uptake by mimicking insulin (so they claim). If this is true then your blood glucose levels may dip down too low while working out with no steady supply from carbs. Many of these supplements give minimal benefit in relation to money spent. If they actually worked, then they would be more like drugs, and should not be taken anyway. I wouldn't take more than just a multi-vitamin. > Any other ideas? If you are working out alot, you can increase your carb levels, or go back to CKD. Or, lose the weight first and then worry about increasing poundage on the bar when your overall calories will not be in deficit. Tom 210/180/180 > Thanks for any help, > Mark > > 260/240/200 since: 18/01/2005 :: As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet :: before in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: something about using Vanadyl Sulfate to aid in insulin uptake. Is :: this true, or still recommended? Any other ideas? What's your daily carb level? You can always up it until training improves. Some folks aren't as naturally efficient at burning fat and sparing glucose as others. And, it takes time to switch over and fully adapt, too, so more time may be needed. finally, you can always take some amount of additional carbs before/after your weight training sessions (known as a TKD). > As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet before > in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program detailed by Lyle > McDonald (as can be seen in misc.fitness.weights). Anyway, now that I'm > doing straight LC I've found that my stamina is way down. My muscles > burn sooner and it's harder to maintain the reps with heavy weights. > It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about using Vanadyl [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 260/240/200 since: 18/01/2005 Are you trying to bulk or cut? What's your bodyfat? Your 260/240/200 signifies a substantial cut is in order. Straight LC with 1gm protein per pound bodyweight ought to provide a good baseline for a Protein Sparing Modified Fast diet. 40 pounds to lose? If your shooting for 200 lbs all bulked-up you'll need to overshoot your target on fat loss and then bulk up to 200 lbs. Is that what you want to do? :: Mark McArthey wrote: ::: As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] :: overshoot your target on fat loss and then bulk up to 200 lbs. :: Is that what you want to do? You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day? Obviously, he is trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't need to eat protein as if he's trying to add muscle mass, so he won't need that much protein. > :: Mark McArthey wrote: > ::: As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't need to eat protein as if he's > trying to add muscle mass, so he won't need that much protein. 200 g protein per day @ 260 lbs would be 1.75 g/kg and be in the target range for a strength athlete according to Lemon P. Is increased dietary protein necessary or beneficial for individuals with a physically active lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews (1996) 54: S169-S175. Extra protein will be "spill-over" and converted to glucose. The extra glucose will supplement performance without increasing carbohydrate intake. Sure protein is more expensive than carbs, but Mark says he wants to increase stamina. Increasing the blood level amino acids through over-compensating protein intake will allow protein synthesis to increase due to his hypertrophic workouts according to Oddoye EA., Margen S. Nitrogen balance studies in humans: long-term effect of high nitrogen intake on nitrogen accretion. J Nutr 109 (3): 363-77 I don't know what his LBM is though and he'll be able to trim the protein as he loses more weight [read fat]. :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: warehouse wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] :: with a :: physically active lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews (1996) 54: S169-S175. Does lifting weights make one a strength athlete? if it does, let me know so I can refer to myself as such.... :: Extra protein will be "spill-over" and converted to glucose. The :: extra glucose will supplement performance without increasing :: carbohydrate intake. Sure protein is more expensive than carbs, but :: Mark says he wants to increase stamina. He wants to get it back up so he can complete his workouts...there are other ways to do that. Firstly, he may find that if he continues on LC for a while longer, he'll be able to complete those workouts just fine. If not, he can simply up his carb level a bit, or do a TKD. He does need to get sufficient protein, however. Increasing the blood level :: amino acids through over-compensating protein intake will allow :: protein synthesis to increase due to his hypertrophic workouts :: according to Oddoye EA., Margen S. Nitrogen balance studies in :: humans: long-term effect of high nitrogen intake on nitrogen :: accretion. J Nutr 109 (3): 363-77 :) How do you know his workouts will be hypertrophic? :: I don't know what his LBM is though and he'll be able to trim the :: protein as he loses more weight [read fat]. He can just up his carbs and eat about 150 g of protein a day and be just fine. It is really hard to eat 200+ g of protein a day. I didn't see where he said he was a bodybuilder or anything... > You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day? > Obviously, he is trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't need > to eat protein as if he's trying to add muscle mass, so he won't > need that much protein. Isn't protein intake tied to muscle *use*, not desire to gain? If you're lifting, you're still repairing muscle, and that's what the extra protein is for. Also, protein intake is normally tied to LBM, not total weight, which makes a difference if you're overweight. For a PSMF, 200g/day sounds about right to me, given his info. I just started one and, for my 135lbs LBM and lifting I'm at 170g protein per day. We'd need to know his %bf (or at least his height and build) to try to be more accurate. But even 200g/day is still only 800 kcals/day, which is plenty low enough for a PSMF cutting cycle. :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> writes: ::: You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: :: Isn't protein intake tied to muscle *use*, not desire to gain? It's tied to both... If :: you're lifting, you're still repairing muscle, and that's what the :: extra protein is for. Come now...DJ.... you do really believe that everytime you lift weights you're damaging muscle to the extent that if you don't eat that much protein you'll lose the muscle? That level of protein intake hard to get eating real food and while keep kcals low. :: Also, protein intake is normally tied to LBM, not total weight, Right. which :: makes a difference if you're overweight. For a PSMF, 200g/day sounds :: about right to me, given his info. What info? Plus, the guy said he is doing straight LC, not a PSMF. I just started one and, for my :: 135lbs LBM and lifting I'm at 170g protein per day. Are you trying to gain? We'd need to :: know his %bf (or at least his height and build) to try to be more :: accurate. But even 200g/day is still only 800 kcals/day, which is :: plenty low enough for a PSMF cutting cycle. Is this PSMF even proven? > :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> writes: > ::: You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day? [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Is this PSMF even proven? Aren't all Lyle's ideas just based on research?  SignatureBob in CT :: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:27:45 -0500, Roger Zoul :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] :: :: Aren't all Lyle's ideas just based on research? Supposed to be. But PSMF is a crash diet approach as far as I know. > Come now...DJ.... you do really believe that everytime you lift > weights you're damaging muscle to the extent that if you don't eat > that much protein you'll lose the muscle? Well, I know that gaining LBM is really hard, so I do want to be careful not to lose it just because of a little dietary protein ;-) But the idea of a PSMF protien level is to keep protein intake higher than protein use, so the body doesn't have to break down muscle to make glucose. Also, PSMF tries to avoid using dietary glucose for that purpose. On plain LC you can add carbs for lifting (TKD), but you're not supposed to on PSMF, which means a lot more protein. > That level of protein intake hard to get eating real food and while > keep kcals low. Tell me about it! This is the first diet where I find it hard to eat enough AND I'm hungry all the time. > What info? Plus, the guy said he is doing straight LC, not a PSMF. Oh, right. I suppose each 1g/day carbs can offset 2g/day protein then, so to get it down to 150g/day protein you'd need 100g/day carbs. > I just started one and, for my 135lbs LBM and lifting I'm at 170g > protein per day. > > Are you trying to gain? No, cut. I lift to stay in shape and hopefully encourage the weight loss to be more fat than otherwise. My long term goal is to get below 15%bf then use UD2 to gain LBM while staying at or below 15%bf. > Are you trying to bulk or cut? > What's your bodyfat? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on fat loss and then bulk up to 200 lbs. > Is that what you want to do? Yes. I used to be heavily into weightlifting. A friend and I went to the gym 4 days a week, for probably 5 years. I'm not so worried about "bulk", but I would definately like to get "cut"... hence, the weight loss. My strength is way down, as well, and I'm anxious for improvements in that area. I worry that I'm limiting my gains since I seem to burn out so much faster on low-carb. According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is 190. It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high school. I can curl much more now than I could ever hope to accomplish then. In addition, my varsity jacket is much smaller across the shoulders and arm length. I'm being optimistic that I can reach 200, but I like to set my goals high. I haven't been in a sub-40 pant size since college. We'll just have to wait a bit and see, I suppose. Thanks, Mark > My strength is way down, as well, and I'm anxious for improvements > in that area. I worry that I'm limiting my gains since I seem to > burn out so much faster on low-carb. Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book? > According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is 190. > It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high school. BMI doesn't work for people outside the norm, either excessively muscular or excessively not. If you can measure your %bf it's a better indicator (15% being "ideal" for men). > > According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is 190. > > It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high school. > > BMI doesn't work for people outside the norm, either excessively > muscular or excessively not. If you can measure your %bf it's a > better indicator (15% being "ideal" for men). Does that mean that J.ust C.ut DerKoenig needs to gain 5% BF? There are a few around here that can help him with sumptuous helpings of pancakes, noodles other "low carb" treats being eaten under the guise of LC. ;) >> > According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is 190. >> > It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high school. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of pancakes, noodles other "low carb" treats being eaten under the > guise of LC. fuggedaboutit. :: "Werlax" <werlax@hotmail.com> writes: :: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: :: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book? Where is this new book? ::: According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is 190. ::: It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high school. :: :: BMI doesn't work for people outside the norm, either excessively :: muscular or excessively not. If you can measure your %bf it's a :: better indicator (15% being "ideal" for men). > :: "Werlax" <werlax@hotmail.com> writes: > :: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > :: muscular or excessively not. If you can measure your %bf it's a > :: better indicator (15% being "ideal" for men). Lyle's got two new ones: The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook & A Guide to Flexible Dieting Haven't read either other than the "galley proof" excerpts from his bodyrecompsition site. :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: DJ Delorie wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] :: Haven't read either other than the "galley proof" excerpts from his :: bodyrecompsition site. Thanks for the info...I'll check them out. I could see myself eating just shrimp for a week or two. :) Thanks much for all the discussion. I didn't realize that I'd started up such a hot topic. ;) I also didn't realize that Lyle had a new book out. I'll head out and see about getting it. For the time being, I'll stick to low carb and start doing some evaluation on my actual counts... calories, grams of protein, etc. I'm not sure what ratio of fat/protein I'm taking in. I tend to eat lots of vegetables and lean meats and fish. Even with the feeling that I don't have the same energy when exercising, I was going to stay on LC until I'd at least come within 20 lbs or so of my goal and re-evaluate. For now, though, I'll be sure to verify that I'm getting enough protein (and not too much fat). Thanks again, Mark > I also didn't realize that Lyle had a new book out. I'll head out and see > about getting it. If you're doing plain LC with lifting, his "The Ketogenic Diet" might be a better pick (if you don't already have it). He talks about how to train on plain LC with a couple of different options. :: Thanks much for all the discussion. I didn't realize that I'd :: started up such a hot topic. ;) Some of us love to talk about this stuff. :: I also didn't realize that Lyle had a new book out. I'll head out :: and see about getting it. Same here. :: For the time being, I'll stick to low carb and start doing some :: evaluation on my actual counts... calories, grams of protein, etc. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] :: Thanks again, :: Mark > :: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book? > > Where is this new book? http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ It, and another one, were published just last week. The PSMF book is entitled "The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook: A Scientific Approach to Crash Dieting". The other one is "A Guide to Flexible Dieting". >> :: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > entitled "The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook: A Scientific Approach to Crash > Dieting". The other one is "A Guide to Flexible Dieting". Interesting -- he advocates taking a break from dieting. SignatureBob in CT > >> :: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book? > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Bob in CT Where does Lyle recommend "taking a break" from dieting? Are you inferring this from a bullet on the book highlights? Are you referring to dieting strategies that break certain adaptations that have resulted in refined CKD like UD2? >> >> :: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Where does Lyle recommend "taking a break" from dieting? Are you > inferring this from a bullet on the book highlights? Yes. He states: "As with the crash diet, it is more than possible to diet for too long at a stretch and frankly, I think that most people do exactly that. Basically, they stay in diet mode forever when they'd do better, in the long run, breaking up their dieting phases. As well, and as discussed in much more detail in A Guide to Flexible Dieting (being released at the same time as this booklet), incorporating free meals, refeeds and full diet breaks still applies to more traditional/moderate dieting. The only difference, really, is that the full diet breaks don't need to come quite as often." "For the average category 1 dieter, I feel that 4-6 weeks of straight dieting is about the maximum (occasionally, 8 weeks can be acceptable). After that, a 2 week diet break should be undertaken as described in the past chapters. If further fat loss is necessary, they can move back into moderate dieting. As well, and in contrast to the PSMF, category 1 dieters should incorporate free meals once or twice a week. Structured refeeds should also be used but the details are beyond the scope of this booklet. You'll have to buy either A Guide To Flexible Dieting or my Ultimate Diet 2.0 for the details." > Are you referring > to dieting strategies that break certain adaptations that have resulted > in refined CKD like UD2? Have you used any of his books with any amount of benefit? I have The Ketogenic Diet and have found it interesting but basically useless. SignatureBob in CT > > It, and another one, were published just last week. The PSMF book is > > entitled "The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook: A Scientific Approach to Crash > > Dieting". The other one is "A Guide to Flexible Dieting". > > Interesting -- he advocates taking a break from dieting. No, he advocates taking a break as *part of* dieting. The idea is that most of the diet failures are due to psychological issues, and scheduling free meals and breaks - still healthy food - takes care of that problem, letting most people stay on the diet longer. >> > It, and another one, were published just last week. The PSMF book is >> > entitled "The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook: A Scientific Approach to Crash [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > scheduling free meals and breaks - still healthy food - takes care of > that problem, letting most people stay on the diet longer. This depends on how one defines "dieting." This is exactly what he says: "As with the crash diet, it is more than possible to diet for too long at a stretch and frankly, I think that most people do exactly that. Basically, they stay in diet mode forever when they'd do better, in the long run, breaking up their dieting phases. As well, and as discussed in much more detail in A Guide to Flexible Dieting (being released at the same time as this booklet), incorporating free meals, refeeds and full diet breaks still applies to more traditional/moderate dieting. The only difference, really, is that the full diet breaks don't need to come quite as often." "For the average category 1 dieter, I feel that 4-6 weeks of straight dieting is about the maximum (occasionally, 8 weeks can be acceptable). After that, a 2 week diet break should be undertaken as described in the past chapters. If further fat loss is necessary, they can move back into moderate dieting. As well, and in contrast to the PSMF, category 1 dieters should incorporate free meals once or twice a week. Structured refeeds should also be used but the details are beyond the scope of this booklet. You'll have to buy either A Guide To Flexible Dieting or my Ultimate Diet 2.0 for the details." From my perspective, if you "diet for too long" and then you "take a diet break," it appears that you're no longer dieting. I therefore stand by my original assertion. SignatureBob in CT > This depends on how one defines "dieting." Well, yes. "diet" can mean today's food, this phase of your long term plan, or the whole long term plan. Or, in most cases, all of the above depending on context. Since Lyle says to always take a break after a term of low-cal eating, I include that break as part of "the diet". If you did just the term of low-cal eating, and then something other than a break, you wouldn't be doing what he told you to do, so I consider it all part of one big "diet plan". For example, look at the UD2 "diet", which includes four different macronutrient profiles used for different days within EACH week. It would be absurd to treat each day as a different "diet" except as part of the bigger "diet plan". > This is exactly what he says: My point was, though, from listing to Lyle for a couple of years now it's become plain to me that he considers diet plans with scheduled breaks to be more effective in the long term than ones without. Thus, he schedules them into his diets. ::: "Bob M" <ctviggen.y@adelphia.net> writes: ::::: It, and another one, were published just last week. The PSMF [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] :: a diet break," it appears that you're no longer dieting. I :: therefore stand by my original assertion. I'd have to disagree with you here, Bob. I frequently look at dieting this way - some days contribute to weight loss and others don't. During the course of a week, for example, if 5 days are good weight loss days and 2 are maintenance days, then I still get an overall weight loss if I observe over a long enough period of time. Thinking like this takes the stress off and allows you to work in more socially normal days and/or meals. For me, since I date a lot and don't wish to bore my female friends with diet talk & attitude, this notion helps big time. This type of thinking also helps me avoid eating too much, because I'm in "diet mode" even if I'm on a "diet break" for that day (mostly it's for a meal, not a day, but that meal might end up making it for the day!). It's all a head thing, IMO. Even though I haven't read Lyle's two new books, his notions sound like what I do...and in fact, I probably got them from his other books. Moreover, I have found that having one free meal per week, after a hard dieting week, and still seeing progress on the scale is a strong motivational tool for me. It's a head thang, man. > ::: "Bob M" <ctviggen.y@adelphia.net> writes: > ::::: It, and another one, were published just last week. The PSMF [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > progress on the scale is a strong motivational tool for me. It's a head > thang, man. Interesting -- perhaps "dieting" does include non-dieting meals/weeks. I'm going to Arizona for a few days, and I hope to sustain low carb while I'm there. We'll have to see whether that's possible, though. Do you estimate calories on the days you're dieting but not dieting? (Your days off) I'm going to start counting calories when I get back from AZ, but I've been eating out once a week. I try to eat a low carb/low cal appetizer, then eat only half my meal (which I try to select low carb/salad), and this has worked out well. However, I have no clue as to how I would estimate my calories for that meal. I can eat inside for a few weeks, but when you're dating, sometimes you just have to eat at restaurants. SignatureBob in CT > Interesting -- perhaps "dieting" does include non-dieting meals/weeks. > I'm going to Arizona for a few days, and I hope to sustain low carb while > I'm there. We'll have to see whether that's possible, though. What's with Arizona and low-carb? Are there high-carb banditos waiting to stuff your gullet at the airport? > Do you estimate calories on the days you're dieting but not dieting? > (Your days off) I'm going to start counting calories when I get back from > AZ, but I've been eating out once a week. I try to eat a low carb/low cal > appetizer, then eat only half my meal (which I try to select low > carb/salad), and this has worked out well. However, I have no clue as to > how I would estimate my calories for that meal. I can eat inside for a > few weeks, but when you're dating, sometimes you just have to eat at > restaurants. > > -- > Bob in CT Weigh your food. Don't have a scale? Get one. Small, lightweight, will pass Homeland Security checkpoints. Comes in a small box. http://www.tanita.com/GramOunceScales.shtml Yes, of course she'll complain and give you dirty looks. "How dare you interrupt our romantic dinner! What kind of anal retentive carb-counter have I got mixed up with?" But Bob you're smarter than that, because when she objects, you whip out another box just for her. Gauranteed compliance to your weighing will be ensured for the rest of your visit. http://www.tiffany.com/shopping/category.aspx?cntry1=1&category=feature&ismenu=1 &categoryid=502&hppromo=dphp1&mysid1= >> Interesting -- perhaps "dieting" does include non-dieting > meals/weeks. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What's with Arizona and low-carb? Are there high-carb banditos waiting > to stuff your gullet at the airport? Don't you find it harder to eat low carb when you're eating out? I certain do. For instance, what do you eat at a Mexican restaurant? An Italian restaurant? A fast food restaurant? And even if you can find something to eat, it's typically the ONE item they have that's low carb. >> Do you estimate calories on the days you're dieting but not dieting? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Weigh your food. Don't have a scale? Get one. Small, lightweight, > will pass Homeland Security checkpoints. Comes in a small box. I have four (or maybe five scales), as I used to count calories. I have both digital and non-digital. I have ones with and without bowls. > http://www.tanita.com/GramOunceScales.shtml > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://www.tiffany.com/shopping/category.aspx?cntry1=1&category=feature&ismenu=1 &categoryid=502&hppromo=dphp1&mysid1= Assuming you can weigh the food, how can you estimate calories? For instance, last weekend, I had lamb stuffed with feta cheese. What was in the feta cheese? I don't know. How much feta cheese did I eat? How much lamb? Unless I take apart the stuffed feta and weigh the feta, then take apart the lamb and weigh the meat, I really won't have a good estimate. Then, there was a squash pancake made with cranberries. How do I estimate the calories in that? Personally, I'd rather not go out for three weeks or so to get a baseline calorie count. Then, when I do go out, I'll follow the same practice as I am now -- not eating that much and choosing wisely. SignatureBob in CT >>> Interesting -- perhaps "dieting" does include non-dieting >> meals/weeks. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > go out, I'll follow the same practice as I am now -- not eating that > much and choosing wisely. Not to mention that I went to one of the fast food restaurants where they'll give you a book listing calories for foods. I was going to order a hamburger without fries (I think they offered cauliflower "potatoes"). The hamburger was 1,100 calories! I was stunned. I believe this is without sides, too. I had no idea a hamburger could be that many calories. I forget what I did order, but it was a lot fewer calories. SignatureBob in CT > >>> Interesting -- perhaps "dieting" does include non-dieting > >> meals/weeks. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > Don't you find it harder to eat low carb when you're eating out? I > > certain do. For instance, what do you eat at a Mexican restaurant? An > > Italian restaurant? A fast food restaurant? And even if you can find > > something to eat, it's typically the ONE item they have that's low carb. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >> out another box just for her. Gauranteed compliance to your weighing > >> will be ensured for the rest of your visit. http://www.tiffany.com/shopping/category.aspx?cntry1=1&category=feature&ismenu=1 &categoryid=502&hppromo=dphp1&mysid1= > > Assuming you can weigh the food, how can you estimate calories? For > > instance, last weekend, I had lamb stuffed with feta cheese. What was > > in the feta cheese? I don't know. How much feta cheese did I eat? How > > much lamb? Unless I take apart the stuffed feta and weigh the feta, > > then take apart the lamb and weigh the meat, I really won't have a good [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Not to mention that I went to one of the fast food restaurants where > they'll give you a book listing calories for foods. I was going to order > a hamburger without fries (I think they offered cauliflower "potatoes"). > The hamburger was 1,100 calories! I was stunned. I believe this is > without sides, too. I had no idea a hamburger could be that many > calories. I forget what I did order, but it was a lot fewer calories. > > -- > Bob in CT That 1100 calories is with the bun and all the other add-ons. No profit-driven fast food restaurant is serving a 400 gram broiled 80%/20% lean/fat ground beef patty. If you have a palm pilot then you can just download the data from here: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/srch/search.htm > Don't you find it harder to eat low carb when you're eating out? I > certain do. For instance, what do you eat at a Mexican restaurant? An A lot of places have salads now, you don't have to eat the shell or croutons. Even the Sonic, a drive in, has a salad with grilled meat. SignatureNo Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes > Don't you find it harder to eat low carb when you're eating out? No. I eat out at least a dozen times a week. > I certain do. For instance, what do you eat at a Mexican restaurant? Carnitas, apretados (grilled shrimp wrapped in bacon), fajitas (just ignore the tortillas and eat the grilled meat/veggies), ceviche... > An Italian restaurant? Chicken Caesar salad. That appetizer with the mozzarella atop tomato slices. Osso buco. Grilled fish/veggie dishes. Some have grilled chicken and pretty good steaks. > A fast food restaurant? Order a burger low-carb (lettuce wrapping), or at places that don't have it just eat the burger from out of the bun - quite neat. Of course, my idea of fast food is El Pollo Loco - four piece chicken, no sides, no tortillas, large diet coke, for here, $8.06. > And even if you can find something to eat, it's typically the ONE item > they have that's low carb. How many items were you planning on eating? KeS :: On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:44:45 -0500, Roger Zoul :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] :: Interesting -- perhaps "dieting" does include non-dieting :: meals/weeks. These days, I'm trying my best not to do weeks...meals I can handle right now. I'm going to Arizona for a few days, and I hope to :: sustain low carb while I'm there. We'll have to see whether that's :: possible, though. Sure it's possible. Get a grilled chicken breast and two sides of broccoli. Sub fish (I know you only like salmon) or steak if no chicken breast. I rarely have problems eating out these days, but there are a few family type places that I avoid because the have a very limited menu (basically, you go down a line and eat whatever that have made for the day). But most mainstream places make it very easy to stay LC... :: Do you estimate calories on the days you're dieting but not dieting? I sometimes try. For example, not long ago I ate out with Kathy. I had an 8 oz sirlion and two sides of broccoli. That I entered into fitday based on estimates. However, last night, before the concert, I had some cheeze, a Caesar salad, and "she-crab" soup (we were in a hurry to eat before the 7:30 concert and had to order what the waiter thought would be quick). Prior to that, I had only at 600 kcals. I probably had 3 oz of cheese. I have no idea how many calories the she crab soup had...but I know I didn't overeat...I can always tell that. So I didn't worry about doing fitday. I can't be 100% perfect all the time, though I can shoot for it. Generally, though, when I know I'm going to be out, I try not to eat before. Fasting has given me the ability to endure the hunger better, I think. For me, getting hungry is a sure sign that I'm doing stuff right (I'm not talking about simply wanting to eat, though). I think fasting has helped me tell the difference. :: (Your days off) I'm going to start counting calories when I get :: back from AZ, but I've been eating out once a week. I try to eat a :: low carb/low cal appetizer, then eat only half my meal (which I try :: to select low carb/salad), and this has worked out well. On Friday, I'm going to Charleston. I'll have a dinner meeting with some people with the convention center there. Since it is doubtful that I'll be able to count that meal in terms of calories (or will want to try), I plan to simply not eat all day and let dinner be my one meal. So, if I get 1500 kcals or so in a meal, I'm golden. If I get 2000 kcals in that one meal, I can still lose weight, though my rate will be slowed down. I'll try to compensate by doing 500 kcals or so of cardio in the AM on Saturday (assume there is some gym in the hotel there). At 1500 kcal / day, I don't need to do much cardio (I still do my weight training, however). If I'm hungry when I wake up Saturday morn, I'll know I didn't eat too much. Counting calories is a nice too, but if one is willing to become hungry before every meal, you can lose weight without counting, I think. :: However, I :: have no clue as to how I would estimate my calories for that meal. :: I can eat inside for a few weeks, but when you're dating, sometimes :: you just have to eat at restaurants. sure. But you can still lose weight, but it does get harder, I admit. Plan for it. :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> writes: ::::: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :: entitled "The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook: A Scientific Approach to Crash :: Dieting". The other one is "A Guide to Flexible Dieting". Seems like Lyle's has ended up with a good bit of my money....so, with these two, that comes to what, 5 books? So he is a professional book writer, right? I hope the science is up. > So he is a professional book writer, right? He admits to being a lousy book writer ;-) (but I guess that doesn't preclude him being a professional anyway) > I hope the science is up. I've come to expect that from Lyle, which is why he can get away with being a self-proclaimed lousy book writer. In the latest one, he dropped the references with a note that says that people either don't read them or don't care, because they still complain about the science even though the references back everything up. So now he doesn't bother, but you can email him if you want them. > Are you trying to bulk or cut? > What's your bodyfat? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on fat loss and then bulk up to 200 lbs. > Is that what you want to do? Just jumping in here, somewhere. I took a look at Lyle's new book(s) and am intrigued by the PSMF diet. I'll be reading the book, but I'm curious how it differs from doing low-carb (hence, being in ketosis) and just cutting calories? The nature of a LC diet is that you naturally end up eating more protein than anything else. Is there a specific type of food that you should eat on a PSMF diet? Since I'm focusing on the weight lifting aspect of all of this, is a PSMF diet necessarily a better choice than straight LC? Also, to use your terms, yes, cut and bulked is what I'd like to attain. One step at a time, though. ;) By the way, I'm 6'2" and am currently 240. Given my (I think) more realistic weight goal of 200, that puts me at 20% bf. If I use the BMI of 190, I'm at 26% bf. I'd guess I'm somewhere in between there. Thanks for the info, Mark > I'll be reading the book, but I'm curious how it differs from doing > low-carb (hence, being in ketosis) and just cutting calories? LC starts with a normal diet and removes carbs. PSMF starts with *nothing* and adds protein (and a few other things). One could say that a PSMF is a low fat version of LC, since there's negligible amounts of either fat or carbs on a PSMF. > The nature of a LC diet is that you naturally end up eating more > protein than anything else. No, LCers generally eat more fat than anything else. Most stats I see have 2-3x more fat than protein. > Is there a specific type of food that you should eat on a PSMF diet? Food that's mostly protein. There aren't many of them. Chicken, turkey, tuna, egg whites, FF cheeses, protein powders. That's about it. Add to that EFAs and a lot of LC veggies. > Since I'm focusing on the weight lifting aspect of all of this, is a > PSMF diet necessarily a better choice than straight LC? PSMFs are supposed to be short-term, not long term, except in special cases. For lifting, other diets are better overall (IMHO) because they strike a better balance between weight loss and strength. Probably best to hold off on this question until you read the book; IIRC Lyle talks about this. > By the way, I'm 6'2" and am currently 240. Given my (I think) more > realistic weight goal of 200, that puts me at 20% bf. If I use the > BMI of 190, I'm at 26% bf. I'd guess I'm somewhere in between > there. Calipers are only $20 ;-) >> I'll be reading the book, but I'm curious how it differs from doing >> low-carb (hence, being in ketosis) and just cutting calories? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that a PSMF is a low fat version of LC, since there's negligible > amounts of either fat or carbs on a PSMF. Hmmm...I was considering this diet until now. There's no way I could eat low fat while exercising. >> The nature of a LC diet is that you naturally end up eating more >> protein than anything else. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > turkey, tuna, egg whites, FF cheeses, protein powders. That's about > it. Add to that EFAs and a lot of LC veggies. So, what makes this diet different than the high protein diet I did 25 years ago? >> Since I'm focusing on the weight lifting aspect of all of this, is a >> PSMF diet necessarily a better choice than straight LC? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Calipers are only $20 ;-) Can you caliper yourself? SignatureBob M remove ".x" to reply > Hmmm...I was considering this diet until now. There's no way I > could eat low fat while exercising. At best you should lift about 50-70% during PSMF. > So, what makes this diet different than the high protein diet I did > 25 years ago? Since I don't know what that was, I can't answer. But PSMFs have been around for a while - it's nothing new. > > Calipers are only $20 ;-) > > Can you caliper yourself? The $20 calipers I'm thinking about, no. You need someone to do your back and triceps. Unless you're double jointed and have a video camera and a tripod ;-) You can do the front-side measurements yourself if you only care about progress rather than actual %bf but all the equations I've seen require at least triceps, which you can't do yourself. There are some digital ones that record the readings for you (and do the math) that are a little more expensive ($30+). For example: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/acc/fattrack.html However, I'd ask on misc.fitness.weights or www.bodyrecomposition.com for recommendatations before buying any calipers, since some have poor recommendations for accuracy. Plus, they'd probably have tips for self-measurement. I use Slimguide, which have a good reputation and are only $20 but you have to be able to read them while they're pinching. >> Hmmm...I was considering this diet until now. There's no way I >> could eat low fat while exercising. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > are only $20 but you have to be able to read them while they're > pinching. Thanks for the information, although I'll pass about asking on either of those forums (I personally think Lyle is an A-hole and don't really ever care to discuss anything with him; he's the JC of m.f.w.) SignatureBob in CT > >> Hmmm...I was considering this diet until now. There's no way I > >> could eat low fat while exercising. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > -- > Bob in CT While you may not agree with Lyle's language, demeanor or penchant for video games and porn, his approaches to dieting and strength training are based on some of the latest available scientific research in both regards. However there is such a dearth of good information on long-term applications of ketogenic diets, that he has not drawn any conclusions as to their usage long-term. >> >> Hmmm...I was considering this diet until now. There's no way I >> >> could eat low fat while exercising. [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > long-term applications of ketogenic diets, that he has not drawn any > conclusions as to their usage long-term. OK, but I still don't think that research is all that it's cracked up to be. The problem I find with much of the research is that it's unclear that it applies to me. Just because a few 24 year old white men happen to be able to use carbohydrates in a certain manner doesn't necessarily mean that a 40 year old man with insulin resistance will react in the same way. For instance, I read The Ketogenic Diet cover to cover. Yet, it's almost entirely based on weightlifting. Consequently, it's unclear how to apply this information to my situation, where I lift weights at most twice a week and bike 2-3 days per week. Using Lyle's calculations in the book for the amount of carbs I should take in due to my two days a week (I should note that I go from set to set with very little rest, so I pack in the number of sets in the two days I lift), I would eat so many carbs that it wouldn't be good for me. Moreover, I've found that I don't have to eat as many carbs as recommended and I still exercise quite well. I have yet to figure out how many carbs to eat and the book (with all that great research) is almost useless. If perhaps I was to follow the exact diet and training followed by the people in these studies, then there's a possibility that I could react the same as they do (although I doubt it, as the test subjects typically aren't men with full time jobs who consider themselves very lucky to exercise 4 days a week). Basing information on research is great -- if you're the age and sex of the research subjects, you're performing the exercises they're performing, and you're following the diet they're following. For instance, most cycling books/training books (based, like Lyle's book, on research) will tell you that you have to base your diet on carbs and that you have to eat a tremendous amount of carbs during and after the ride. Well, I eat nowhere near what's recommended, yet with no ill effects. I'm not following the "research", yet I'm doing well. Am I an anomaly? I doubt it; I just think that the "research" doesn't use men who are my age with my goals. OK, I've repeated myself, but you get the point. What Lyle does is take research based on certain subjects, then apply that research to everyone. Does this work? It hasn't for me. SignatureBob in CT You're as bad as Wysong with all the excuses. SignatureNow piss off. You cannot possibly be this stupid and remember to breathe. You must be trolling. -- Carmen >>> >> Hmmm...I was considering this diet until now. There's no way I >>> >> could eat low fat while exercising. [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > research based on certain subjects, then apply that research to everyone. > Does this work? It hasn't for me. Cut your reps, increase your sets, and increase the time between sets. Try to get stronger while you lose weight. SignatureEat less, exercise more. -- MFW -- > As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet before > in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program detailed by Lyle [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > 260/240/200 since: 18/01/2005 > Cut your reps, increase your sets, and increase the time between sets. This sounds much like the HST program I was just looking at. ;) > Try to get stronger while you lose weight. A worthy goal, and exactly what I think we're all trying to do. Easier said than done, but I appreciate the sentiment. :) Thanks, Mark ::: Cut your reps, increase your sets, and increase the time between ::: sets. :: This sounds much like the HST program I was just looking at. ;) Only marginally. HST is about hypertrophy...which you ain't gonna get too much of if you're trying to lose weight. HST trys to limit you to two sets and has high reps at the start of a cycle and moves toward low reps at the end of the cycle. increaseing time between sets on HST is probably good at the end of the cycle since you are dealing with much heavier reps. ::: Try to get stronger while you lose weight. ::: :: A worthy goal, and exactly what I think we're all trying to do. :: Easier said than done, but I appreciate the sentiment. :) Believe it or not, you can get stronger without getting bigger. Muscle size and strength aren't in a simple one-to-one correspondance. I think JC's advice is good. > ::: Cut your reps, increase your sets, and increase the time between > ::: sets. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I think JC's advice is good. He's probably going to have to learn from experience. > He's probably going to have to learn from experience. I'm not even sure what to say to that since experience goes hand in hand with asking questions of those that have experience. Therefore, the reason for asking the questions here. Thanks for the responses, Mark >> He's probably going to have to learn from experience. > I'm not even sure what to say to that since experience goes hand in hand > with asking questions of those that have experience. Therefore, the > reason for asking the questions here. > Thanks for the responses, > Mark HST stands for Hypertrophy Specific Training. You're not going to be very successful with hypertrophy on a hypocaloric diet (absent some powerful drugs), so you're better off training for strength as you reduce your bodyfat. > HST stands for Hypertrophy Specific Training. You're not going to be very > successful with hypertrophy on a hypocaloric diet (absent some powerful > drugs), so you're better off training for strength as you reduce your > bodyfat. Yeah, I was aware of the definition of HST, but I didn't understand the difficulty with seeing muscle growth on an LC diet. I was figuring that as long as I ate enough protein and had some pre-workout carbs, I would be alright. I definately want to reduce my bodyfat, so I was hoping for a way to see improvements in size as well. That's why I was interested in the PSMF and TKD/CKD diets. I guess it does make more sense to focus on one thing at a time, though. Cut, then bulk. ;) Thanks for clarifying, Mark |
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