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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / February 2005

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OT: Can't Be A Rat - Dang

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RRzVRR - 25 Feb 2005 12:34 GMT
I'm so disappointed. I found out yesterday that I won't be in a
research study that would have been worthwhile.

Since one of my BA's was centered around statistical research
methods, my profession was research based, and because I'm lucky
enough to live in NYC which is full of Universities, doctors and
hospitals doing research; I frequently try to volunteer for
medical research studies.  So far I'm been really lucky to be in
a few personally worthwhile studies.  As a participate in some
cosmetics laser studies I netted an outcome that would have cost
several thousand dollars, plus instead they paid me for my time
and willingness to be tested.  However, I've never been able to
get into any body composition or diet related study.  The
different reasons in the past have been:  BMI on the high end (I
have more LBM than most women), I didn't want to eat a different
diet for a prolonged period of time, didn't want to live in the
hospital for weeks/months  -- or surprisingly what I've gotten a
couple of times -- I exercise more than the average woman my age
(which circles back to having too much LBM).

But finally, I found a really interesting study that looked like
it would both be personally helpful and related to those of us
who exercise and eat a high-fat diet.  It was basically a study
on FFA fuel use and storage.  Specifically the study was on how
different lipids are processed and the muscles uptake and storage
of triglycerides.  They don't always give all the details on what
they're trying to findout, but my guess would be that it was
along the lines how medium and long chain fatty acids differ.  My
benefit from the study would be to have a very detailed list of
information I'd loved to know:  my overall metabolism, my fat and
glucose metabolism, and a totally accurate body composition via MRI.

Of course to get that information was going to be a bit
unnerving -- which is why they would have paid $750.  The test
would be involve 3 overnight stays in the hospital, having a
feeding tube placed down my nose, along with drugs that would
make my stomach push the tube out of my stomach and into the
beginning of my small intestine, (were they could release the
different lipids), then being put though an MRI test 4 times over
the course of several hours to track the lipid uptake, two IVs
one for glucose release, one for hydration, plus all the time
having a plastic "bubble" over my head to monitor my metabolism.

But after going though all the details with the doctor, deciding
& then agreeing that I could/would go through the more unpleasant
aspects, I had to be knocked out of the study.  I'm not sure who
was more disappointed.  Evidentially, its hard to find people
willing to do have a feeding tube pushed through their system.
Go figure.

The reason, In 1979 I had a broken jaw.  I've had MRI done before
and didn't have a problem.  But with the pins in my jaw and due
to the power of the MRI that they would be using it wouldn't be
wise.  Which also means that I would be knocked out of other MRI
studies in the future as well.

I'm truly disappointed about this.  However the doctor who heads
the study was very interested in the fact that I exercise a great
deal and eat a LC diet.  He said there maybe another study
coming up soon that I might be able to participate in.

In short, I'm bummed.  I also wanted to show just how difficult
it is to come by some medical information.  I hope it makes some
of you have a new appreciation for the research findings we often
discuss here on ASDLC.

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Carmen - 25 Feb 2005 12:44 GMT
Good morning Rudy,

> I'm so disappointed. I found out yesterday that I won't be in a
> research study that would have been worthwhile.
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> deal and eat a LC diet.  He said there maybe another study
> coming up soon that I might be able to participate in.

> In short, I'm bummed.  I also wanted to show just how difficult
> it is to come by some medical information.  I hope it makes some
> of you have a new appreciation for the research findings we often
> discuss here on ASDLC.

I'm sorry Rudy.  So close...  Hopefully that doc will remember you
when/if an appropriate study comes along.
Thank you for being a willing guinea pig.  :-)
As far as appreciation for medical researchers and the difficulties
they may encounter doing studies you'll have an awfully hard time
convincing some that they are anything but conniving evil rat bastards
who spend all their time thinking up ways to make people sick so they
can make more money.  ;-)

Take care,
Carmen
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Roger Zoul - 25 Feb 2005 13:38 GMT
> As far as appreciation for medical researchers and the difficulties
> they may encounter doing studies you'll have an awfully hard time
> convincing some that they are anything but conniving evil rat bastards
> who spend all their time thinking up ways to make people sick so they
> can make more money.  ;-)

Ah...only some are that way...the ones I don't agree with :)
Carmen - 25 Feb 2005 16:54 GMT
Hi,

> > As far as appreciation for medical researchers and the
> > difficulties they may encounter doing studies you'll have an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Ah...only some are that way...the ones I don't agree with :)

Thanks for the laugh Roger.  <G>

Take care,
Carmen
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RRzVRR - 26 Feb 2005 12:31 GMT
> I'm sorry Rudy.  So close...  Hopefully that doc will remember you
> when/if an appropriate study comes along.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Take care,
> Carmen

Why fill a need when you can create a non existent one?

I think its the pharmaceutical advertising and marketing people
who spend their time thinking up ways to "convince" people that
they're sick just so that they can sell them a drug are the evil
rat bastards.   I swear everytime an ad comes on for a drug I get
 the feeling of being in a Kurt Vonnegut novel.

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Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
 -Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
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Roger Zoul - 25 Feb 2005 12:44 GMT
> I'm so disappointed. I found out yesterday that I won't be in a
> research study that would have been worthwhile.

DANG!!!! DANG^2!!!

I'm bummed too.  That would be a great study to have someone who hangs out
here participate in, even though I'd never be willing to submit to that.
I'm glad folks like you exist, Rudy. Hang tight, though, as I'm sure they'll
find a way to use your willingness to serve.
DJ Delorie - 25 Feb 2005 13:54 GMT
> But with the pins in my jaw and due to the power of the MRI that
> they would be using it wouldn't be wise.

The alternative is to have your jaw ripped off by the superconducting
magnets they use.  Will those pins ever come out?

When I had my MRI they X-ray'd my eyes to make sure there weren't any
tiny bits of metal in them (I weld occasionally), else the machine
would have ripped those out of my eyes.
RRzVRR - 26 Feb 2005 12:17 GMT
>>But with the pins in my jaw and due to the power of the MRI that
>>they would be using it wouldn't be wise.
>
> The alternative is to have your jaw ripped off by the superconducting
> magnets they use.  Will those pins ever come out?

No they're in for good.

> When I had my MRI they X-ray'd my eyes to make sure there weren't any
> tiny bits of metal in them (I weld occasionally), else the machine
> would have ripped those out of my eyes.

I've had a MRI done and didn't have any problems -- than again I
probably didn't mention that I had the pin in my jaw to them.  It
happened almost in another life and it often slips my mind.

Also I'm guessing that as they said the MRI is stronger then
most, PLUS it would be actually 7 MRIs (3 nights & 4 MRIs a night).

Signature

Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
 -Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

DJ Delorie - 26 Feb 2005 14:03 GMT
> Also I'm guessing that as they said the MRI is stronger then most,

Was the last time one of the limb-only small MRIs, or the
whole-body-tube MRI?  When I had mine done, the sports center had to
send me to the local hospital because a larger MRI unit was needed.
RRzVRR - 27 Feb 2005 13:53 GMT
>>Also I'm guessing that as they said the MRI is stronger then most,
>
> Was the last time one of the limb-only small MRIs, or the
> whole-body-tube MRI?  When I had mine done, the sports center had to
> send me to the local hospital because a larger MRI unit was needed.

You know, I don't clearly remember.  It was 4-5 years ago and I
can remember my hand being secured, but don't remember much else.

Signature

Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
 -Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

Ada Ma - 25 Feb 2005 15:27 GMT
>Since one of my BA's was centered around statistical research methods, my
> profession was research based,

Thanks for sharing - interesting post.  I am curious - what do you do for a living?

> The reason, In 1979 I had a broken jaw.  I've had MRI done before and
> didn't have a problem.  But with the pins in my jaw and due to the power
> of the MRI that they would be using it wouldn't be wise.  Which also
> means that I would be knocked out of other MRI studies in the future as
> well.

What about fillings in teeth??  How about crowns??  Would people with those be
ruled out of the study??  There are so many things that can't be done as long as
the subject is a living being.  Those who remain on the study will be healthy,
definitely no accident prone individuals.

> In short, I'm bummed.  I also wanted to show just how difficult it is to
> come by some medical information.  I hope it makes some of you have a
> new appreciation for the research findings we often discuss here on ASDLC.

The study you've just mentioned - I have respect for studies like this - they're
collecting very accurate information in their study.  What I have no respect for
are those studies which string together some variables, run some regressions
using statistical methods that are glaringly inappropriate (at least in my eyes
 - I'm a research economist), and make some wishy washy generalised claim like
"low carb is no use" (or whatever).  It just makes me want to punch them.
Roger Zoul - 25 Feb 2005 15:43 GMT
> The study you've just mentioned - I have respect for studies like
> this - they're collecting very accurate information in their study.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> generalised claim like "low carb is no use" (or whatever).  It just
> makes me want to punch them.

What was/is your thesis topic?  I remember asking you before but I think I
lost the thread....
Ada Ma - 25 Feb 2005 17:00 GMT
>>The study you've just mentioned - I have respect for studies like
>>this - they're collecting very accurate information in their study.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> What was/is your thesis topic?  I remember asking you before but I think I
> lost the thread....

It's in Personnel Economics, looking at pay structure in organisations and at
promotions.  One part of my thesis is an empirical study on tournament theory -
they say people compete for promotions like tennis players compete for top
prizes in tournaments.  So if you want to tear the heads off of those colleagues
who are performing better than you?  Well, it's a totally acceptable and
rational behavior ... ;-P

which means just like you I have to spend long hours in front of computer!!   so
what do you do for a living?  are you still a office worker?
DJ Delorie - 25 Feb 2005 17:32 GMT
> What about fillings in teeth??  How about crowns??

I've never heard of iron fillings or crowns.  Usually, the metal ones
are a silver amalgam, but more often a plastic composite is used.  The
problem with MRIs is the huge magnet - anything magnetic (or attracted
by magnets) in your body is going to be seriously yanked about by it.
Ada Ma - 25 Feb 2005 17:48 GMT
I have no idea what fillings are made of.  I thought it was just any metal -
forgot the MRI's M stands for magnetic.  I think part of my crown is made of
steel but I'm not sure about it.  Is steel attracted to magnet?  (where are all
the stuff in my head that I'd supposedly learned in science classes while I was
a kid? <holding my head in despair>)  Having bits of the body being yanked out
by magnet sounds pretty scary!

>>What about fillings in teeth??  How about crowns??
>
> I've never heard of iron fillings or crowns.  Usually, the metal ones
> are a silver amalgam, but more often a plastic composite is used.  The
> problem with MRIs is the huge magnet - anything magnetic (or attracted
> by magnets) in your body is going to be seriously yanked about by it.
DJ Delorie - 25 Feb 2005 19:32 GMT
> Is steel attracted to magnet?

Regular steel is.  Stainless isn't, or at least is only weakly
attracted, probably depends on the formulation (and the MRI probably
doesn't care about how weak it is anyway ;)
Ada Ma - 25 Feb 2005 19:54 GMT
>>Is steel attracted to magnet?
>
> Regular steel is.  Stainless isn't, or at least is only weakly
> attracted, probably depends on the formulation (and the MRI probably
> doesn't care about how weak it is anyway ;)

Thanks!  I guess a big magnet can afford to be quite indiscriminating in what it
picks up... :-)
RRzVRR - 26 Feb 2005 12:33 GMT
>   The
> problem with MRIs is the huge magnet - anything magnetic (or attracted
> by magnets) in your body is going to be seriously yanked about by it.

Check out my other post with MRI INFO in the subject line...
never would have thought that a tattoo would be a problem.

Signature

Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
 -Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

DJ Delorie - 26 Feb 2005 14:03 GMT
> Check out my other post with MRI INFO in the subject line... never
> would have thought that a tattoo would be a problem.

They might have used an iron-based pigment in the tattoo.
RRzVRR - 26 Feb 2005 12:22 GMT
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks for sharing - interesting post.  I am curious - what do you do
> for a living?

I'm a trainer at a YMCA... although I still have one client from
my past work-life as a media consultant, but they don't need much
of my time anymore.

> What about fillings in teeth??  How about crowns??  Would people with
> those be ruled out of the study??  There are so many things that can't
> be done as long as the subject is a living being.  Those who remain on
> the study will be healthy, definitely no accident prone individuals.

Getting curious myself, I just looked into MRI risk and found
this site:  http://health.howstuffworks.com/mri.htm

Prior to allowing a patient or support staff member into the scan
room, he or she is thoroughly screened for metal objects. Up to
this point, we have only talked about external objects. Often
however, patients have implants inside them that make it very
dangerous for them to be in the presence of a strong magnetic
field. Metallic fragments in the eye are very dangerous because
moving those fragments could cause eye damage or blindness. Your
eyes do not form scar tissue as the rest of your body does. A
fragment of metal in your eye that has been there for 25 years is
just as dangerous today as it was then -- there is no scar tissue
to hold it in place. People with pacemakers cannot be scanned or
even go near the scanner because the magnet can cause the
pacemaker to malfunction. Aneurysm clips in the brain can be very
dangerous as the magnet can move them, causing them to tear the
very artery they were placed on to repair. Some dental implants
are magnetic. Most orthopedic implants, even though they may be
ferromagnetic, are fine because they are firmly embedded in bone.
Even metal staples in most parts of the body are fine -- once
they have been in a patient for a few weeks (usually six weeks),
enough scar tissue has formed to hold them in place. Each time we
encounter patients with an implant or metallic object inside
their body, we investigate thoroughly to make sure it is safe to
scan them. Some patients are turned away because it is too
dangerous. When this happens, there is usually an alternative
method of imaging that can help them.

I also found at another site:
http://tattoo.about.com/cs/tatfaq/a/mri_scan.htm

It is the powerful magnetic force that creates a concern, not
only to those who are tattooed, but also to anyone with metal
objects in their bodies such as implants (dental or otherwise),
pacemakers or even metal fragments. The magnetic force of an MRI
machine is so strong, even the “weakest” machine used (about
0.5-tesla) is 10,000 times the strength of the Earth’s magnetic
field. Even small metal objects such as paperclips or keys can
become projectile weapons if left in an MRI room during a scan.

So, what does all of this have to do with tattoos? Well, it
appears that about 20 years ago and further, tattoo ink was
sometimes comprised of small fragments of metal as well as other
ingredients. This was long before tattoos were ever regulated and
before more serious thought was given as to the safety of tattoo
ink ingredients. Some MRI patients who have had tattoos that
dated back far enough to have received ink that contained metal
bits have reported slight discomfort to severe pain during an MRI
scan.

It is purported that the reason for this was that the magnetic
force pulled on the metallic fragments so violently that it
caused a burning sensation in the location of the tattoo. I have
heard some theorize that this may have been caused by built up
friction between the particles, and some say that the magnetic
force was actually tearing at the skin as the fragments were
pulled and attempted to actually break away from the skin. I
don’t know which, if either, is true; however, even if there is
no pain at all, these fragments can cause artifacts, which is the
technical term used for distortions in MRI scans. Artifacts can
render a scanned image useless, requiring that the procedure be
done again or even an alternate procedure be used to acquire
accurate information. So, at the very least, you could be stuck
with a very expensive bill for nothing -if, of course, your
tattoo actually contains these metal particles.

Interesting stuff... learn something new every day.

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Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
 -Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

Ada Ma - 26 Feb 2005 20:55 GMT
Trainer at YMCA - you must be fit!  The tattoo part makes interesting reading.
Lucky you that you didn't suffer any discomfort in the last scan - it could be
quite frightening to be sitting in a tube and be in need of help.

>> X-No-Archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
> Interesting stuff... learn something new every day.
RRzVRR - 27 Feb 2005 14:09 GMT
> Trainer at YMCA - you must be fit!  The tattoo part makes interesting
> reading. Lucky you that you didn't suffer any discomfort in the last
> scan - it could be quite frightening to be sitting in a tube and be in
> need of help.

I've had to watch my husband have a couple of MRI's done.  The
worst was when he was suffering from a herniated disc and in a
lot of pain.  His complaint was that the sound it makes adds a
"Tell Tell Heart" anxiety factor that's unnerving.

Someone reminded me yesterday about an incident that happened a
few years ago here in NYC.  A young boy was killed while having
an MRI done when someone left an oxygen tank in the MRI room. The
magnetic force pulled the tank into the machine killing him.

Signature

Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
 -Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

Tara - 28 Feb 2005 04:07 GMT
> Someone reminded me yesterday about an incident that happened a few years
> ago here in NYC.  A young boy was killed while having an MRI done when
> someone left an oxygen tank in the MRI room. The magnetic force pulled the
> tank into the machine killing him.

Very terrible story, but all too possible.  I've seen all sorts of photos of
things like vacuum cleaners, wheelchairs, IV poles stuck to MR magnets, and
read reports of patients being killed because they omitted to tell the MR
staff about pacemakers etc.  Luckily these cases are few and far between,
but still terrible when they happen.

If you had broken your jaw within the last couple of years, there would have
been a better chance of participating.  The newer clips, screws and wiring
that they use these days are less ferromagnetic, and after a couple of
months of healing time it is "safe" to have an MR scan.

Many research magnets are "stronger" than those in many hospitals.  The MRI
in my workplace is a 1.5T, but some research scanners are 4T.

Signature

Tara
http://www.dazzled.com/lowcarb - my homepage
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tjharris - pics of Madison
New Zealand

RRzVRR - 28 Feb 2005 10:43 GMT
> Many research magnets are "stronger" than those in many hospitals.  The MRI
> in my workplace is a 1.5T, but some research scanners are 4T.

Interesting.  Thanks for the info.

Signature

Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
 -Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

 
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