 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsGeneral TopicsLow CarbWeightWatchers WeightAdviser.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / May 2005Low Carb and Weight Training - Follow Up Questions
Hey Dudes, I didn't ask before about the specifics of a low carb diet for weight training because 1. the way I've been eating hasn't left me short of energy for my cardio, and I assumed if I could do an hour of cardio, my muscles must have enough energy for an hour of ST and 2. because I'm back to being a beginner at this, and so how hard *could* I really push my muscles at the start? I figured carb ups, etc were something to worry about when I've been doing this a while. Because I'm mostly maintaining, I don't sweat my carbs too much as long as I'm eating low carb foods and not having so much as to cause cravings. It can vary from 20 up to maybe 60g, depending. Usually probably in the lower range now, esp. since all the lovely low-carb spring veggies are out. But, my experience tonight has made me wonder if perhaps I need more carbs in order to workout effectively. Fairly early in the workout, we were working on full (non-girl) pushups, but just the negatives, so I guess you could call them let downs. Anyway, doing 10 pushed me to failure. That's fine, begin where you are, etc. The problem is that when we came around to do the next set - after doing other things for a while, so those muscles had a chance to pause and regroup - I couldn't do *one* with good form. In fact the muscles that got pushed to failure were so weak that I needed two hands to raise my water bottle to drink for the rest of the workout (it's not that big and wasn't that full). It wasn't like the muscles hurt or I was dogging it. The best way I can describe it is, "sure, I'll be happy to do another 10 if you'll just put the damn' kryptonite back in the box." Even now, almost two hours after we finished,I still feel like I can barely use them. Overall, I don't feel exhausted, just like my arms have been cooked way past al dente. Is this just a normal part of ST? I don't remember it being like this when I did nautilus lo these many years ago, but hell I don't remember what my phone number was then, either, so that probably isn't a good indicator. If this is an indicator of running out of glycogen and leaving the muscles running on vapor is there a quick and dirty on how much of what sort of carbs on should eat how far in advance in order to make it through a workout? Thanks, Martha who still needs two hands to lift a glass  SignatureSig pending :> Hey Dudes, :> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] :> barely use them. Overall, I don't feel exhausted, just like my arms :> have been cooked way past al dente. When you bonk, you tend to feel exhausted completely.... :> Is this just a normal part of ST? I don't remember it being like :> this when I did nautilus lo these many years ago, but hell I don't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :> what sort of carbs on should eat how far in advance in order to make :> it through a workout? I'd guess that you have a weak upper body and you just overextended....but try to keep carbs up around 60 just in case...descreasing your cardio should help, too. :> Thanks, :> :> Martha who still needs two hands to lift a glass :> :> -- :> Sig pending You should consider downloading "The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner" by Lyle McDonald at: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ That's going to answer most of your questions relating to strength training and LC... as well as covering a lot of basic areas on training (both WT and aerobic) and your body's fuel system. Its a worthwhile read and its were most of the people here on ASDLC who train got their basic LC/WT information. SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm Hey Rudy, > You should consider downloading "The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete > Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner" by Lyle McDonald at: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > system. Its a worthwhile read and its were most of the people > here on ASDLC who train got their basic LC/WT information. Thanks. I do *have* Lyle's book. It's just well, the reading it part. <g> I'll dig it out and see if he has anything to say on whether low carbing can cause muscles to not gain back strength between sets - and of course, other stuff as well. Thanks, Martha P.S. It was your posts about your experience in using strength training to help you maintain that made me determined to change "I should" to "I'm gonna." <g> SignatureSig pending :> Hey Rudy, :> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] :> whether low carbing can cause muscles to not gain back strength :> between sets - and of course, other stuff as well. Recovery between sets depends on a lot of things: age, conditioning, etc. You can always add more time between sets to improve recovery. There is a danger in assuming that you need more carbs to complete a weight training session, espeically at the beginning when intensity shouldn't even be an issue. :> Thanks, :> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :> -- :> Sig pending > Thanks. I do *have* Lyle's book. It's just well, the reading it part. <g> > I'll dig it out and see if he has anything to say on whether low carbing > can cause muscles to not gain back strength between sets - and of course, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Martha I'm sure that now that you're training the reading it will be easier. I'd suggest that you carefully read the TKD section and consider going that path as you start to train more. However, I have a few suggestions in that area -- so let's write more after you've had a chance to read the book and train a little longer. > P.S. It was your posts about your experience in using strength training to > help you maintain that made me determined to change "I should" to "I'm > gonna." <g> That's great. I'll have to write a post sometime soon on how each year it all gets easier. It seems that each year I've got a little more LBM than the last and the payoff is progressive. So I'm now enjoying the benefit of my efforts over the last 5 years. SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm > > Thanks. I do *have* Lyle's book. It's just well, the reading > it part. <g> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm sure that now that you're training the reading it will be > easier. I'd suggest that you carefully read the TKD section and Damn, you're psychic! I did pull out my copy and it did make much more sense when I read it in the context of what I have been doing and what I expect to be doing. > consider going that path as you start to train more. However, I This part, too. I read the description and thought that it sounded like it might be very helpful to me. I'll fool around with it - using smarties or some other high GI food that I don't actually like - see whether it seems to have any effect. > have a few suggestions in that area -- so let's write more after > you've had a chance to read the book and train a little longer. Great, when I'm further on, I'll write about my experience and solicit your comments. None of this is intended as any disrespect to my trainer, she seems to really know what she's doing, but she doesn't low carb and I doubt she has too many clients who follow a serious low carb plan. And, reading Lyle's book, in addition to some more details about tweaking my diet to maximize muscle development while minimizing weight gain (or maybe even losing), I found the answers to some of my other questions. As to the question about how much muscle I could hope to gain, he cited a study in which, over the course of a 20 week training program, a group of women lost 10 lbs of bodyfat and gained 10 lbs of muscle (he doesn't say, but I'm assuming that was the average). He noted that if they'd added more muscle groups to the training regimen they might have gained and lost even more. I would be *so* psyched if I could gain 10 lbs of muscle over the next 20 weeks. Now, of course, DJ was right when he said that the significant gains don't happen at first. OTOH, I've got some major-league DOMS going on right now, so I think maybe that might indicate the potential for some growth. My trainer didn't use calipers, but she does have a handheld device that measures BF%s - like the Tanita scale, except you don't step on it. I don't know how accurate those things are, but as long as they're relatively consistent that should give me a good sense of how I'm progressing - or not. I also realized that my protein intake isn't as high as he recommends. I might try a little more protein and a little less fat for a while and see how that works. > > P.S. It was your posts about your experience in using strength training to > > help you maintain that made me determined to change "I should" to "I'm [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I'm now enjoying the benefit of my efforts over the last 5 years. > It's nice to be going in that direction. <g> Thanks, Martha SignatureSig pending > This part, too. I read the description and thought that it sounded like it > might be very helpful to me. I'll fool around with it - using smarties or > some other high GI food that I don't actually like - see whether it seems > to have any effect. If you do "fool around" with TKD, I'd suggest that you not take as many grams of carbs has suggested in the book at this point in your training. Take in smaller, very measured amounts and track the impact. Also, I'd strongly suggest that if you do experiment with taking in TKD carbs that you start with carbs that are not "food" treats. The smarties maybe, but don't take in forbidden foods as a carb-up right now. Your mindset might get off track. If you could get your hands on plain dextrose to add to a protein shake that would be great. I've bought my dextrose at India grocery stores (but brewers and bakers supply shops are also suppose to carry it) and I've also used creatine loading mixes that are dextrose based. Also, as you've read (or will read) don't take in fruit/fructose as a carb-up on TKD. > As to the question about how much muscle I could hope to gain, he cited a > study in which, over the course of a 20 week training program, a group of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > DOMS going on right now, so I think maybe that might indicate the > potential for some growth. What age are you? I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but its likely you won't make a 10 lbs muscle gain in 20 weeks. However I do think that a 10lb loss of body fat could be possible in 20 weeks along with 5+ lbs of muscle gain in that time since you're new. Just be thankful for every pound of muscle that does come your way. > My trainer didn't use calipers, but she does have a handheld device that > measures BF%s - like the Tanita scale, except you don't step on it. I > don't know how accurate those things are, but as long as they're > relatively consistent that should give me a good sense of how I'm > progressing - or not. You're talking about impedance devices and they're not very reliable. Their numbers are greatly effected by your hydration level -- so if you use them in the early AM you'll get a higher number than if you use them in the evening after you've taken in plenty of fluids during the day. Plus they don't tell you where you're losing BF (legs, back, etc.) Maybe you could call around to other gyms/ facilities and ask what they'd charge for a caliper BF%. We charge a day pass fee of $15.00. But I've had it done for free at other gyms and I would likely do it for free for someone if I had the time, and for the possibility of getting a future client. > I also realized that my protein intake isn't as high as he recommends. I > might try a little more protein and a little less fat for a while and see > how that works. Consider just adding some post work-out protein -- something easy to digest (this is where protein shakes come in handy). Take in your post w-o protein as soon as you can after training -- definitely within the hour. Good luck SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm > > This part, too. I read the description and thought that it sounded like it > > might be very helpful to me. I'll fool around with it - using smarties or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > as many grams of carbs has suggested in the book at this point in > your training. Take in smaller, very measured amounts and track Yes, that was why I thought smarties or glucose tabs (they're actually dextrose and maltodextrin, but probably close enough for gvt. work), so I could be reasonably accurate. > the impact. Also, I'd strongly suggest that if you do experiment > with taking in TKD carbs that you start with carbs that are not > "food" treats. The smarties maybe, but don't take in forbidden > foods as a carb-up right now. Your mindset might get off track. Yeah, I'm coming up on my 3rd year of low-carbing without any serious desire to go off plan (I have occaisional off-plan days, but they're usually planned in advance and they never last for longer than a day), so I'm not worried about starting to eat off the reservation, but I have had a problem with calorie creep when I upped my exercise, so it's back to fitday for me until I'm sure I've got that stable. > If you could get your hands on plain dextrose to add to a protein > shake that would be great. I've bought my dextrose at India > grocery stores (but brewers and bakers supply shops are also > suppose to carry it) and I've also used creatine loading mixes > that are dextrose based. Also, as you've read (or will read) > don't take in fruit/fructose as a carb-up on TKD. I did see that, which is too bad, 'cause that would be easy carbs for me to add. I'll try a couple of workouts with a moderate amount of carbs before and see if it seems to make any difference. If not, just let it slide until I get further along in my training. If it does help I'll look into getting the proper stuff. > > As to the question about how much muscle I could hope to gain, he cited a > > study in which, over the course of a 20 week training program, a group of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > you're new. Just be thankful for every pound of muscle that does > come your way. You're not kidding. When I was in my 20s, I was doing fairly serious training, but, as I got closer to my goal weight, my weight stopped going down. So, the counsellor at the Diet Center suggested that I give up the weight training as that was probably what was keeping me from losing weight. Technically true, but really stupid advice nonetheless and I was no brighter in following it. I'm 42, so yeah, I'm not going to add muscle like a teen, but, looking on the bright side, I'm safely this side of menopause, so it's not as hard as it will be later. > > My trainer didn't use calipers, but she does have a handheld device that > > measures BF%s - like the Tanita scale, except you don't step on it. I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > someone if I had the time, and for the possibility of getting a > future client. I'll look into that. Is something like the "fat track" digital calipers sufficiently idiot proof that a non-professional can use it to get consistent results or is it better to just find someone who has experience doing it and go see them ever couple of months? > > I also realized that my protein intake isn't as high as he recommends. I > > might try a little more protein and a little less fat for a while and see [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your post w-o protein as soon as you can after training -- > definitely within the hour. Thanks, I really appreciate your help. I'll let you all know how I'm progressing in a couple of months. I've set up my website, so in 21 weeks I hope I'll be able to post some progress pictures. For now, the best that can be said is that, well, I've got plenty of room to make improvement. Martha http://www.geocities.com/taupewhidbey/ Strength_Training.html SignatureSig pending > I'll look into that. Is something like the "fat track" digital > calipers sufficiently idiot proof that a non-professional can use it > to get consistent results or is it better to just find someone who > has experience doing it and go see them ever couple of months? If you have someone to measure you, something like Slimguide calipers are inexpensive and accurate, and often recommended by People Who Know. However, you need someone to measure you. By yourself, yeah, some sort of digital calipers would probably be best, although you'd have to research their accuracy (mfw archives might help here). If you have a pro do it, once a month or so is probably sufficient. Your trainer can probably do it also (perhaps you can buy your own slimguide, and bring it for him/her to use to measure you once a week or so). My wife does mine. Here's a link to a reference page I use: http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine/ultimatebodyfattestingguide.htm As far as idiot-proof goes, IMHO the important factor is *repeatability*. As long as you measure the same [perhaps wrong] way each time, you can watch the measurements change over time, even if they don't correspond to usable %bf numbers. I have some caliper resources available on my web site: http://www.delorie.com/health/ Specifically, two printable charts for writing down the measurements (one has more measurements, one has more detail), and a form that calculates %bf for you for both 7 and 3 site measurements. For women, the 3 site is thigh, triceps (hard to do alone), and suprilliac (hip). But if you only care about the measurements, you can just choose the sites that you can do (probably chest, abs, thigh, hip, calf), and not compute %bf. > I did see that, which is too bad, 'cause that would be easy carbs for me > to add. I'll try a couple of workouts with a moderate amount of carbs > before and see if it seems to make any difference. If not, just let it > slide until I get further along in my training. If it does help I'll look > into getting the proper stuff. I always suggest that people try post WT carb-ups. The idea of TKD to me is that you want your muscles to reload with glycogen for the next training session. Post WT you want to aid recovery as much as possible, hence you want raised insulin levels at that time to try and switch from a catabolic state to an anabolic one (even if its only for a relatively short time). If you've managed some depletion of your muscle's glycogen stores then the post WT carbs will be taken up along with incoming protein. If you haven't overshot the carb amount you'll be back in ketosis fairly quickly. > I'm 42, so yeah, I'm not going to add muscle like a teen, but, looking on > the bright side, I'm safely this side of menopause, so it's not as hard as > it will be later. Yea, I'm 44 and my whole plan is to try and add as much LBM and bone density as possible before I get into my 60's. I've been very blessed to have be dealt a good genetic hand and can put on LBM easier than most women. Speaking of which, you do get in enough calcium right? I see far too many women at the gym that are their primarily because their doctors have prescribed it due to bone loss. > I'll look into that. Is something like the "fat track" digital calipers > sufficiently idiot proof that a non-professional can use it to get > consistent results or is it better to just find someone who has experience > doing it and go see them ever couple of months? One of the other trainers that works with me brought in a small hand held device that had a digital read-out area. You could put in the persons age, sex, etc. and that it would do the math/chart reference for you -- maybe that's what you're talking about. If its the same one, then I wouldn't suggest it. The problem with it was that it would give inconsistent readings at the same site, on the same fold, because the reading was affected by how much I squeezed on the device. You'd be better off with some form or spring loaded caliper. First, I'd suggest finding someone who knows what they're doing, who would use professional calipers on you and who you could go back for retesting. Second to that, you might want to order some Slim Guide calipers (which usually cost around $20-25) and get your trainer to test you (either all over or just on the areas you can't do for yourself). Even if she doesn't know what she's doing I think you'll still get a better read on your BF% than with the impedance devices. Carefully read through the instructions and understand what should be done and just have your trainer test you multiple times at each site. There's some skill involved -- but its not brain surgery. Last note on this... some people find caliper testing unpleasant, but if you're older and have recently lost some weight its not so bad.... and I believe worthwhile. SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm There is no way I could fo a set of 10 "let downs", LOL....and Im pretty strong, for one who hasnt lifted a weight in years. Im not surprised at all you couldnt do another set----Im amazed you completed one. With or without carbs. The point is, you controlled your entire upper body weight with your arms and pecs....10 times....on your present strength, first time out, on untrained muscles. Not one person out of 10 beginners could have done another set. I couldnt, today, if they promised me a milion bucks for two sets. You're worrying too much. Are you a mesomorph or an endomorph? IF you're a meso, and let one day pass for your muscle fibers to heal, then go do a set of 10....you will likely notice that you've already gained some strength....and can do one set of 12, instead of 10. That's how it progresses. If you're an endo, it may take several (probably three) visits to the gym, doing one set of 10 each time, before the day you realize 12 isnt any harder than 10 was. IF you need kmore carbs....you'll know it---because you will crave them. That's how your body will let you know. Or, if you get shaky and feel ultra weak all of a suddrn....go get some carbs. I would suggest you have a carb breakfast before going to the gym---you will butn the carbs off during the training session. Then continue LCing the rest of the day. Your first workout is really your "baseline" it let's you know exactly how strong you are, naturally. Then, each sicceeding workout shows you haow much strength you have gained, compared to the baseline. When the time comes you can easily do one set of, say 15.....at your NEXT workout, do 2 sets of 10, with a 15 or 20 second rest between sets. When you'e able, go to 2 sets of 12. Next session, try 3 sets of 10 and so on. LassChance (aka WIR) Start LC~5-16-05 202-199-165 (i only weigh on Sunday) Perhaps you should actually lose some weight before spouting a trough full of bogus advice. SignatureNow piss off. You cannot possibly be this stupid and remember to breathe. You must be trolling. -- Carmen > There is no way I could fo a set of 10 "let downs", LOL....and Im pretty > strong, for one who hasnt lifted a weight in years. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > 202-199-165 > (i only weigh on Sunday) >"Perhaps you should actually lose some >weight before spouting a trough full of >bogus advice." If my knowledge of weight training was as scant as my weight loss, this might actually be relevant. But, since spending four years married to a professional boby builder....and being weight trained BY him, I know pretty damn well exactly what Im talking about, which was weight TRAINING, not weight loss. Which puts me significantly ahead of you, dipshit, as you dont seem to know much about anything. Now crawl your 600 pound a.s back under your rock and dont interupt when grownups are talking. LassChance (aka WIR) Start LC~5-16-05 202-199-165 (i only weigh on Sunday) A professional "boby" builder. He must be famous. Who is he? Since bodybuilding is 90% about the diet, I take it that either he doesn't exist, or you're too stupid to understand how it works. Once again, try making some positive progress before trying to tout your trashy advice. SignatureNow piss off. You cannot possibly be this stupid and remember to breathe. You must be trolling. -- Carmen > >"Perhaps you should actually lose some >>weight before spouting a trough full of >bogus advice." [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > 202-199-165 > (i only weigh on Sunday) resididen idiot, Koenig sez.. >"Since bodybuilding is 90% about the >diet, >I take it that either he doesn't exist, or >you're too stupid to understand how it >works." ya know...to be anywhere near an effective, let alone interesting troll...you really need to be a great deal more inteligent, articulate and knowledgable thatn you are. If you believe bodybuilding is 90% diet....you truly are one ignorant mofo. You doubt my veracity? Hmmmm. I've noticed it's always the liars who suspect others of lying. I suggest you spend some time ar alt.trollsRus and practice up on your sadly lacking trolling skills. Im bored, now---ta-ta, you simple-minded twat. LassChance (aka WIR) Start LC~5-16-05 202-199-165 (i only weigh on Sunday) In other words, you don't know a professional bodybuilder. SignatureNow piss off. You cannot possibly be this stupid and remember to breathe. You must be trolling. -- Carmen > resididen idiot, Koenig sez.. >>"Since bodybuilding is 90% about the >diet, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > 202-199-165 > (i only weigh on Sunday) Der Koenig sez >"In other words, you don't know a >professional bodybuilder." so...if I wasnt really married to his father....I guess my son never existed, either? You seem to think bodybuilders are like movie stars or something. The only "famous" BB's are those who win the Bigs--Mr. Univers, Mr. Olympia and Mr. America. The other 30 or so competitors who dont win first second or third place are neither famous nor even memorable. They're the wanna-be's, much like yourself. People who are just good enough to get into the game, but never win it. FYI, all you have to do to qualify as "professional" is to have won ONE cmpetition that has a cash prize. My ex won a lousy city comp---thought he had a chance and was wrong. Had a congenital bad left calf, for one thing, which spoiled his symetry and went bald quite young, before the days of the shaved-head-bald-on-purpose trend. But that's not the point, dimbulb. The point is, even a BB professional failure still spend 5-8 hours in the gym, daily. His diet is very secondary to the hours of weight lifting, making your statement that "diet is 90% of body-building" just as moronic as when you uttered it. Wha's the heaviest weight you've ever lifted? Your fat a.s off the couch to go to the kitchen for more ice cream? pffffft. LassChance (aka WIR) Start LC~5-16-05 202-199-165 (i only weigh on Sunday) If you think that a successful bodybuilder needs to spend 5-8 hours a day in the gym daily, you are much more ignorant than I could ever perviously imagined. What would Mike Mentzer say? Try giving up this charade before you dig too big a hole. SignatureYou take stupid to a new level. -- MFW > Der Koenig sez >>"In other words, you don't know a [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > 202-199-165 > (i only weigh on Sunday) > you are much more ignorant than I could ever perviously imagined. Some typos are very funny... Pastorio >> you are much more ignorant than I could ever perviously imagined. > > Some typos are very funny... Aye, that's a classic. der konehead sez... >"What would Mike Mentzer say?" LOL...well, not too much, since he's DEAD, you moron. >"Try giving up this charade >before you dig too... yeah....sounds like good advice for YOU to follow. Mike Mentzer! ..yeah...poor, dead Mike....he aint talking much, these days.... LassChance Start LC~5-16-05 202-195-165 (i only weigh on Sunday) It's very noticeable that you didn't follow up on the 5-6 hours a day crap. Would that be with or without drugs? SignatureDoes WebTV come with a button that says 'POST SOMETHING REALLY DUMB?' -- MFW > der konehead sez... >>"What would Mike Mentzer say?" [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 202-195-165 > (i only weigh on Sunday) |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.