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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2006

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Gut growls = ketosis

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David Frank - 26 Jan 2006 14:21 GMT
Gut-growls during day  = ketosis = I am losing weight..
Didnt significantly growl today = no weight loss today,
(confirmed by careful weighing at same time in morning after toilet and
before breakfast.)

Simplistic I know, but as one of the oldest dieters here,
I think its true from my many years of observation while in midst of a
ACTIVE dieting regimen..

If so it provides a DAILY feedback whether you are on/off track with your
diet/exercise/etc
allowing corrective action immediately before many lbs are put back, and
thus disheartening dieters when they weigh-in
after a week...

Corollary,  there are digital scales available that faciliate carefuil
monitoring on a daily basis,,
A SERIOUS dieter shud invest in such scales,  (around $30)
Roger Zoul - 26 Jan 2006 14:49 GMT
What if you're only losing a couple of ounces a day?  Will you experience
gut-growling then?

:: Gut-growls during day  = ketosis = I am losing weight..
:: Didnt significantly growl today = no weight loss today,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
:: carefuil monitoring on a daily basis,,
:: A SERIOUS dieter shud invest in such scales,  (around $30)
trader4@optonline.net - 26 Jan 2006 15:13 GMT
"Corollary,  there are digital scales available that faciliate carefuil

monitoring on a daily basis,,
A SERIOUS dieter shud invest in such scales,  (around $30

Any serious dieter knows that weight fluctuates daily, usually by a
pound or two, sometime by more, even if they haven't changed a thing.
That fluctuation will easily dwarf what real body weight you can
typically lose on any given day.  As to gut growling, I haven't
experienced much of that when losing weight.   Maybe that's cause if I
feel hungry, I eat something.
jackiepatti@gmail.com - 26 Jan 2006 19:06 GMT
> As to gut growling, I haven't
> experienced much of that when losing weight.   Maybe that's cause if I
> feel hungry, I eat something.

Maybe, maybe not.

My stomach is more likely to make noises when full than when empty.
Especially if I lie down... like if I get in bed to watch a movie after
dinner.

I don't think there is a general rule for this sort of thing that
applies to everyone, but I think the OP likely has discovered a rule
that works for him.
jbuch - 26 Jan 2006 17:51 GMT
> Gut-growls during day  = ketosis = I am losing weight..
> Didnt significantly growl today = no weight loss today,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> monitoring on a daily basis,,
> A SERIOUS dieter shud invest in such scales,  (around $30)

I lost 50 lbs, and was never ever aware of "gut growling".

Maybe not everybody reacts the same way..... famous phrase in dieting
results.

Metabolisms differ ........

Simple answers to complex problems are often wrong.  Simple.

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Laureen - 26 Jan 2006 18:58 GMT
I sort of liken what he is saying to my having this weird mind
conception years ago during my  yo-yo dieting phases, that if I was
feeling severe hunger pangs I was definitely losing weight. I couldn't
begin to explain why I associated hunger pangs with losing weight back
then. Maybe I was thinking I was punishing myself by starving my body
out. Now as hindsight is always 20/20 I was.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/freakinlunachick/album?.dir=/90dd&.src=ph&.tok=phh
J9gCBLmL1VUob


Laureen
410/186/180

> Gut-growls during day  = ketosis = I am losing weight..
> Didnt significantly growl today = no weight loss today,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> monitoring on a daily basis,,
> A SERIOUS dieter shud invest in such scales,  (around $30)
David Frank - 26 Jan 2006 19:19 GMT
Laureen,
My current 1000 calorie diet doesnt give me hunger pains any more than I
experienced when I was NOT dieting..
In ketosis the fat burning means you are consuming the fat and that
alleviates hunger (for me)..

>I sort of liken what he is saying to my having this weird mind
> conception years ago during my  yo-yo dieting phases, that if I was
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Laureen
> 410/186/180
DB - 28 Jan 2006 04:26 GMT
"David Frank" <dave_frank@hotmail.com> wrote in

> In ketosis the fat burning means you are consuming the fat and that
> alleviates hunger (for me)..

The Body has away of adapting to any regime it's put thru!
With so few calories on a daily basis, your metabolism slows down and fat
loss is much less.
Watch your lean muscle mass, if you are not getting enough nutrients from
food, your body will take what it needs from leam muscle tissue. This will
result in wieght coming off, but in the wrong places!

Signature

LC again since 1/14/06
277/264/220

Marengo - 29 Jan 2006 03:41 GMT
|| "David Frank" <dave_frank@hotmail.com> wrote in
||
||| In ketosis the fat burning means you are consuming the fat and that
||| alleviates hunger (for me)..

|| With so few calories on a daily basis, your metabolism slows down
|| and fat loss is much less.

I disagree.  At the risk of sounding like JC Der Koenig, that's interet
folklore circulated by people who don't have the willpower to cut their
calorie consumption.  If I eat 5000 calories a day and you eat 1000
calories, I guarantee you will lose more fat than I do each day.

If you switch to a low-calorie/low-carb diet there will be a brief period of
a few days when the body will burn up its stored glycogen as fuel, but once
that happens it will begin burning fat for fuel -- ergo, ketosis.  The less
you eat the more the body will turn to burning the stored fat.  In fact, one
of the great thing about a low-carb way of eating is the improved daily
energy independent of what and when we are eating.

|| Watch your lean muscle mass, if you are not getting enough nutrients
|| from food, your body will take what it needs from leam muscle
|| tissue. This will result in wieght coming off, but in the wrong
|| places!

All the popular low-carb plans include eating enough protein to prevent
muscle loss, along with plenty of vegetables for nutrients.  And ketosis
supplies a steady source of fuel from burning fat that prevents hunger and
maintains weight loss.
Signature

Peter
Website: http://member.cox.net/pmarengo 

DB - 29 Jan 2006 17:34 GMT
"Marengo" <garcondenc@yahoo.com> wrote in

> If you switch to a low-calorie/low-carb diet there will be a brief period
> of a few days when the body will burn up its stored glycogen as fuel, but
> once that happens it will begin burning fat for fuel -- ergo, ketosis.
> The less you eat the more the body will turn to burning the stored fat.

Do we have any numbers for daily required nutrients to support or figure
this his theory out?

Considering that the average male has to consume 2000 calories per day, just
to maintain his body weight, I doubt that 1000 calories a day is sufficient
to properly feed the body. Even worse, if 500 calories are from fat alone,
that's 500 empty calories!
Roger Zoul - 29 Jan 2006 18:03 GMT
> "Marengo" <garcondenc@yahoo.com> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> sufficient to properly feed the body. Even worse, if 500 calories are from
> fat alone, that's 500 empty calories!

Generally, it is said that about 1200 kcals/day are needed to get proper
nutrition. However, one should definitely supplement when dieting.

Fat calories are rarely empty calories!  Unless you're eating pure fat,
there is always nutrition coming from normal LC food that contains fat.
DB - 29 Jan 2006 18:26 GMT
"Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in

> Generally, it is said that about 1200 kcals/day are needed to get proper
> nutrition. However, one should definitely supplement when dieting.
>
> Fat calories are rarely empty calories!  Unless you're eating pure fat,
> there is always nutrition coming from normal LC food that contains fat.

I've heard that most supplements can't be properly absorbed by the body!

If we think that the Body is getting enough fat thru the LC induction
process, then what amount of other calories should we be consuming to get
our daily nutrition?
jbuch - 29 Jan 2006 22:45 GMT
> "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> process, then what amount of other calories should we be consuming to get
> our daily nutrition?

Officially, induction is two weeks.

Supposing that there is some micronutrient insufficiency in two weeks,
in those two weeks, you aren't going to trigger a fatal disease or disorder.

The books say that after two weeks of induction, you proceed to add more
foods including more of the nutrient rich types of vegetables.

During induction, the books emphasize that the vegetables you do eat
should be of the nutrient rich lower carb types.

Mountains..... from molehills.  It is possible to have a narrow focus
and attempt to create mountains from molehills.

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

jackiepatti@gmail.com - 30 Jan 2006 18:10 GMT
> I've heard that most supplements can't be properly absorbed by the body!

Absorption is greatly improved by taking supplements with food.  If you
take more than your body needs, you likely won't absorb it all... I
consider this a good thing though.  Sort of... vitamin and mineral
insurance.

> If we think that the Body is getting enough fat thru the LC induction
> process, then what amount of other calories should we be consuming to get
> our daily nutrition?

I am not in induction.  I am primarily doing low-carb for blood sugar
control rather than weight loss.  Weight loss is just a side benefit.

IMO, the percentages are not the important thing.

The important thing is taking in the amount of carb that allows blood
glucose to remain stable.  This amount varies from person-to-person.
Because I use a blood glucose meter, I know my amount.  Once you know
how much carb you should be taking, it's best to "spend" most of your
carbs via veggies and lower-carb fruits to maximize nutrition.  For me
this is around 50 g carb, or around 200 kilocalories/day.

Next, you try to getting enough protein to support your lean body mass.
But you don't over-do this, as the body converts excess protein to
glucose, which can sabotage the whole point of doing low-carb.  For me,
this is around 80 g protein, or around 400 kilocalories/day.

Then the remainder of calories should be from fat.  Given that I'm only
getting 600 kilocalories from carb and protein, on a 1400 kilocalorie
day, that means I need 800 kilocalories from fat, which is about 89 g
fat.

NOTE: I take in around 1400 kilocalories per day on Mon-Fri, as I find
it easiest to mostly eat the same thing every day.  I cook on weekends
when my husband is home (he drives OTR so is gone during the week). I
stay low-carb on weekends, but eat whatever I want otherwise - which
likely runs a few hundred more kilocalories than during the week.

On Mon-Fri, my diet runs around 14% carb, 24% protein and 58% fat.

The *bulk* of my food is fruit and veggies, but given that I mostly
stick to lower-carb fruits and veggies, it turns out to be a low
percentage of total caloric intake.

That 58% fat looks scary to the low-fat crowd, but it's not... if you
have to maintain blood glucose via low-carb and
adequate-but-not-excessive-protein, your diet *has* to be high-fat.  In
my case, it includes lots of *good* fats - flaxmeal, lecithin, alpha
lipoic acid, evening primrose oil, olive oil.  It would be more ideal
if I all my fat were good fats, but I happen to love dairy, so I do a
lot of cream, yogurt, cottage cheese, ricotta, cream cheese, butter,
etc.

This is what my diet looks like on a typical weekday...

THROUGHOUT THE DAY:

1 quart of homemade "sports drink" - 1/2 packet of Crystal Light with
1/2 tsp calcium ascorbate powder (2 g vitamin C) & 1/8 tsp Lite salt
(120 mg potassium)

2 quarts filtered well-water

BREAKFAST:

2 large cups of coffee: 16 oz coffee with 1 oz heavy cream and 2
packets Equal

hot cereal: nuke together 2/3 cup water, 3 TB flaxmeal, 3 TB milk-based
protein powder, 1 TB lecithin, dash of cinnamon, then stir in 1 oz
heavy cream

dairy and fruit: 3/4 cup full-fat plain yogurt, 1/2 cup whole fresh
strawberries and 2 TB DaVinici sugar-free syrup mixed together (this
varies, I sometimes do cottage cheese, cream cheese or ricotta and also
do other berries or melon)

Supplements:

For diabetes, I take 4 pills: 300 mg Alpha Lipoic Acid, 50 mg Evening
Primrose Oil, 98 mg chromium picolinate, 300 mg magneisum complex

For nutrition, I take 3 pills: 2 Bronson Therapeutic Formula pills
(multivitamin & mineral), 1 Bronson Super B-100 pill

For yeast, I take: 2 Thorne Formula SF722 pills (50 mg 10-unodenic acid
each)

LUNCH:

huge salad: 1 cup shredded butterhead, bibb or Boston lettuce, 1 cup
shredded raddichio, 1/2 medium tomato (diced), 1/4 medium cucumber
(peeled and sliced), 1/4 medium onion (diced), 1 oz shredded cheddar
cheese, 1 roasted garlic clove (smashed), 1 hard boiled egg (minced)
and 2 TB full-fat ranch dressing (I often eat this in two sittings as
it's too much food to get down at once)

Supplements:
yeast pills again

DINNER:

stirfry: 4 oz 80% lean hamburger, 8 oz shredded cabbage, 1/2 inch fresh
ginger (peeled and grated), 2 cloves pressed garlic all fried together
in 1/2 TB olive oil, then topped with 1/2 cup soy sauce (dinner varies,
but generally consists of 4 oz meat, fish or poultry, 8 oz veggies, 2
TB herbs/spices, 1/2 TB oil or butter)

Supplements:
Alpha Lipoic Acid and Evening Primrose Oil pills again
yeast pills again
a milk thistle pill (175 mg standardized to 80%)

Even without supplements, this is more nutritious than *most* non
low-carb diets, since it includes loads of fresh and cooked veggies,
adequate protein, and good fats.

This diet could be improved - more good fats instead of so much dairy,
fewer higher-carb veggies like onions and garlic to allow increased
amounts of lower-carb veggies, cutting out coffee, stopping the
artificial sweeteners.

But for me, the "bad" stuff make the diet palatable for the long-term,
which means I can keep my blood glucose stable and hopefully prevent
the diabetes from progressing.

But while some of my choices are not ideal, the high-fat level is
*necessary* due to the necessity to restrict carbohydrate and get
enough, but not too much, protein.
Susan - 30 Jan 2006 18:17 GMT
>>I've heard that most supplements can't be properly absorbed by the body!
>
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> For diabetes, I take 4 pills: 300 mg Alpha Lipoic Acid, 50 mg Evening
> Primrose Oil, 98 mg

You probably mean 98 MCG of chromium, right?

I sure wish you'd post on alt.support.diabetes.  I always learn so much
from your posts.

Susan

 chromium picolinate, 300 mg magneisum complex

> For nutrition, I take 3 pills: 2 Bronson Therapeutic Formula pills
> (multivitamin & mineral), 1 Bronson Super B-100 pill
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> *necessary* due to the necessity to restrict carbohydrate and get
> enough, but not too much, protein.
jackiepatti@gmail.com - 31 Jan 2006 02:05 GMT
> You probably mean 98 MCG of chromium, right?

Yes.  I'm a horrible typist.

> I sure wish you'd post on alt.support.diabetes.  I always learn so much
> from your posts.

I read over there sometimes, but tend to spend more time here.  Over
there... is more science, and over here... is more recipes.  I love
cooking.  ;)

Thank you for the compliment, Susan.
Susan - 31 Jan 2006 02:26 GMT
>>You probably mean 98 MCG of chromium, right?
>
> Yes.  I'm a horrible typist.

Just sayinzall.  :-)

>>I sure wish you'd post on alt.support.diabetes.  I always learn so much
>>from your posts.
>
> I read over there sometimes, but tend to spend more time here.  Over
> there... is more science, and over here... is more recipes.  I love
> cooking.  ;)

Recently, an enthusiastic home chef has been posting all his
alt.food.diabetic there, and we have frequent threads (there's one right
now) where folks talk about their typical meals.  It's a very mixed bag.

> Thank you for the compliment, Susan.

I'm a fan.

But don't sweat it; I'm not a bunny boiler or anything...   ;-)

Susan
jackiepatti@gmail.com - 30 Jan 2006 16:57 GMT
> Considering that the average male has to consume 2000 calories per day, just
> to maintain his body weight, I doubt that 1000 calories a day is sufficient
> to properly feed the body. Even worse, if 500 calories are from fat alone,
> that's 500 empty calories!

But... if one is trying to lose weight, one doesn't wish to eat enough
calories to maintain body weight.  Maintaining body weight is contrary
to the point.

Also, fat calories are not necessarily empty calories.  First off, they
can be providing essential fatty acids... which are required for life
and health.  Secondly, they provide energy for the body without
effecting insulin levels.

As far as the macronutrients go, fat and protein are both necessary for
life, carbohydrate is the only macronutrient that could be described as
"empty calories" since it's unnecessary.

Of course, in real life, macronutrients do not stand alone... foods
contain micronutrients as well, making some foods better nutritional
choices than others.  But this applies equally to fat as to other
macronutrients as fat is rarely consumed by itself.

I'm not supporting a 1000-calorie diet, per se, as that does seem
rather low to me - likely to slow the metabolism - which if unlucky,
will occur right around the time the dieter gives in to hunger -
resulting in fat gain, rather than loss.

Just that your arguments opposing it don't make any sense.
 
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