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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / February 2006

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Three reasons why calories probably don't count

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TC - 20 Feb 2006 15:39 GMT
1) There is no fundamental science to support it.

The following is supposed to be the scientific basis of the concept of
calories being applicable to animals and weigt control:

*
second ed. of White, Handler and Smith "Principles of Biochemistry"
Chaper 1 and
Chapter 15 (metabolism) plus the citations and references therin. It
states: (pp8)  "Three historic discoveries led to the concept that the
fundamental laws of phsics and chemistry, which apply to nonliving
systems, also apply to living structures.  These discoveries are (1)
the establishment by Lavoisier and Laplace in 1785 of the law of
conservation of energy in its application of animals"-- (the others
have to do with (2) synthesis of urea and (3) fermentation). (pp9) "In
living, as in nonliving, systems therefore, these laws of physical
chemistry require that energy must be supplied in orderto accomplish
the reversal of a spontaneous process or for the synthesis of a new
compound from precursors of lower energy content".
*

A very highly regarded bio-chemistry textbook references "the
establishment by Lavoisier and Laplace in 1785 of the law of
conservation of energy in its application of animals"

Except that the study or the paper by Lavoisier and Laplace does not
exist.

http://moro.imss.fi.it/lavoisier/Lavoisier_Chronology2.asp?anno=1785

Any studies by these two together occurred much later than 1785 and
none specifically established "the law of conservation of energy in its
application of animals". They never did any such study or paper.

This textbook is used to educate all medical people. They are being
told that science has established "the law of conservation of energy in
its application of animals" and then fails to provide a correct or
relevant reference.

Is this acceptable scientific "proof"? Can you find the study or the
paper that originally established "the law of conservation of energy in
its application of animals"?

************************

2) Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
in humans fails 95% of the time.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/309/6955/655

"Controversies in Management: Dietary treatments for obesity are
ineffective
C S Wooley, D M Garner

University of Cincinnati, College of Medicine, Cincinnati, Ohio 45267,
USA Beck Institute for Cognitive Therapy and Research, Bala Cynwood,
Pennsylvania 19001, USA Correspondence to: Dr Wooley.

It is surprising that debate continues about the effectiveness of
dietary treatments for obesity. Perhaps this is partly related to
ambiguity in the term effectiveness. It is well known that most
treatments produce temporary weight loss. But it is equally well known
that 90% to 95% of those who lose weight regain it within several
years.1 This poor outcome has led to charges that traditional
treatments for obesity should be abandoned and countercharges that it
is irresponsible to withhold treatment for such a serious problem. The
failure of reducing diets to produce lasting improvement was recently
reiterated at a National Institutes of Health consensus conference,
which also warned about the adverse effects of treatment.2 "

If it were as simple as restricting caloric intake and increasing
exercise, the vast majority of people of put in a modicum of effort
would lose at least weight over time and they would successfully keep
it off. There is plenty of low-cal food available at the local grocer.
And there are millions of people that do put in a genuine effort and
succeed in cutting caloric intake but without the expected and desired
results. Applying the low calorie diet and the very low calorie diet in
the real world does not result in the desired weight loss in 90 to 95%
of cases.

*******************

3) There exists no specific bio-chemical mechanism that monitors or is
triggered by calories to affect weight gain or fat storage and weight
loss or fat loss.

Our metabolism deals with and reacts to the different nutrients that we
consume. carbs, fats, proteins, vitamins and minerals, water, air and
light. We have various bio-chemical cascades that handles and
metabolizes each of these nutrients. Any good bio-chemistry textbook
will give you the whole story of how our bodies use and process these
various nutrients.

Fat storage is primarily triggered by high blood glucose levels which
in turn triggers high insulin levels which in turn triggers our body to
create and store fat.

There is nothing that explains how fat storage or fat loss is triggered
by calories specifically. It is a black box concept that has never gone
further than the mysterious black box. And it does not fit into any
bio-chemical explanation of the various bio-chemical and metabolic
processes of the human body. In light of the entire metabolic systems
bio-chemical processes and various chemical cascades involved in fat
storage and fat breakdown, calories become the red-headed step-child
with no role to play whatsoever.

********

I am sure that calories mean something somewhere. Possibly at the
extremes of the scales, we may need a certain minimum amount of
calories for our bodies to be able to function properly, and at the
other extreme, way too many calories will cause some problems. But in
the middle area where we are eating within normal ranges of food, the
actual number of calories consumed and the amounts expended cannot be
used to reliably predict weight gain or loss. The basic and simple math
of the calorie deficit concept simply does not work in the real world.

It is a very simple concept. Burn more calories than you consume.
Except it fails in the real world.

TC
GaryG - 20 Feb 2006 15:51 GMT
> 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 115 lines]
> It is a very simple concept. Burn more calories than you consume.
> Except it fails in the real world.

It fails in the real world precisely because people consume more calories
than they burn.  With the ready availability of high calorie foods, and the
decreasing requirement for movement in modern life, it's no wonder people
are getting fatter and fatter.  This also explains why we're getting fatter
over time - years ago, high fat food was less plentiful (you couldn't buy 64
oz sodas), and there were very few jobs that required sitting down for 8
hours per day.  Years ago people also weren't sitting on their butts
watching television for 6 hours per day.

Study after study has demonstrated that overweight people consistently
underestimate how many calories they consume, and consistently overestimate
how many calories they burn through exercise.  The results are quite
predictable.

GG

> TC
TC - 20 Feb 2006 15:57 GMT
> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 131 lines]
>
> GG

Did you even read what I wrote?

TC
Roger Zoul - 20 Feb 2006 16:45 GMT
::: 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
:::
[quoted text clipped - 125 lines]
:: also explains why we're getting fatter over time - years ago, high
:: fat food was less plentiful (you couldn't buy 64 oz sodas),

I truly hope you meant "high calorie food". However, high calorie food as
always been available.  Nuts, for example.  Meat in large enough quantities
is high calorie.

However, years ago "high-calorie, nutrient-poor, chemically-enriched
convenience" foods were less plentiful.  And people were more active.

and
:: there were very few jobs that required sitting down for 8 hours per
:: day.  Years ago people also weren't sitting on their butts watching
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
:: consistently overestimate how many calories they burn through
:: exercise.  The results are quite predictable.

What?  Most overweight people don't estimate one way or another how much the
consume or burn, and that's part of the problem. Merely trying tends to
result in doing better in that regard. Another part of the problem is that
many of them (certainly speaking from experience here) overeat carb-heavy
calorie-dense foods and don't get any exercise to speak of.  The greater
part of that problem is the consumption part, as far as weight goes.
Exercise isn't needed to lose weight but it is benefical for a lot of
reasons, with weight control being one .

:: GG
::
::: TC
jt - 20 Feb 2006 19:22 GMT
>It fails in the real world precisely because people consume more calories
>than they burn.  With the ready availability of high calorie foods, and the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>hours per day.  Years ago people also weren't sitting on their butts
>watching television for 6 hours per day.

Which also explains why as people grow older and become more sedentary
they become fatter.  It also explains why this generation of children
who don't have pysical education, backyard swing sets, playgrounds,
empty lots to play but instead watch tv, play video games, sit in
front of a computer are fatter all while consuming more unhealthy high
(trans) fat (HFCS) foods.

>Study after study has demonstrated that overweight people consistently
>underestimate how many calories they consume, and consistently overestimate
>how many calories they burn through exercise.  The results are quite
>predictable.

True
TC - 20 Feb 2006 19:50 GMT
> >It fails in the real world precisely because people consume more calories
> >than they burn.  With the ready availability of high calorie foods, and the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> >
> True

It is all useless navel gazing.

There are millions that do put in the effort needed and they still
fail.

TC
GaryG - 20 Feb 2006 20:05 GMT
> > >It fails in the real world precisely because people consume more calories
> > >than they burn.  With the ready availability of high calorie foods, and the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> There are millions that do put in the effort needed and they still
> fail.

So, why were we not fat back in the 1940's?  Have our genetics or
metabolisms changed since then?  Or, are we sitting more, and eating less?
I think the more likely answer is the latter.

GG

> TC
TC - 20 Feb 2006 21:49 GMT
> > > >It fails in the real world precisely because people consume more
> calories
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> GG

In the 1940's there was no fear of fat. And we did not have High
fructose corn syrup in all our food. Most food was real food. Not
highly processed, manufactured, packaged and chock full of sugars as is
the case today and since the 1970's.

TC
jt - 20 Feb 2006 20:06 GMT
>> >It fails in the real world precisely because people consume more calories
>> >than they burn.  With the ready availability of high calorie foods, and the
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
>TC

They don't put in they effort needed which is why they fail.  Some
have to put in more effort then others but nobody ever said life was
fair.
Roger Zoul - 20 Feb 2006 20:41 GMT
:: jt wrote:
::: On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 07:51:52 -0800, "GaryG"
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
:: There are millions that do put in the effort needed and they still
:: fail.

I once lost 100 lbs on low fat and exercise.  I was eating mountains of
bread, rice, potatoes, etc along with lean meats.  So if your carb theory is
correct, how is that possible? BTW, I was diabetic type 2 all that time....
Alf Christophersen - 22 Feb 2006 02:30 GMT
>There are millions that do put in the effort needed and they still
>fail.

Because they refuse to count the chocolat bars, candies etc. which
state it is sugar free (but not calorie free)

And, when interviewed, they tell good stories about the food they did
ate.

I remember once I made a data entry scheme program for a database on
what people did eat. I got lots of test material and was almost
screaming of laughter.

One lady weighing about 140 kg (280 pound) insisted to have eaten
daily for breakfast one slice of bread with gudbrandsdalsost (a brown
cheese made of around 90% cow milk whey and 10% goat milk), for lunch
she did eat about the same. For dinner just a few gram of food and
that's all. And still she gained 2 kg weight in the observation
period. She just wouldn't tell us the reality, as one of my colleagues
did once the new nutrition students should make their first
observation of what people had for food that day. For dinner she
confessed to have eaten 1/2 kg King Haakon confect chocolate :-) (No,
she is not thick at all). She confessed about the episode the day
after in the lunch. We had all a jolly good laughter. (All of us
trying to imagine the faces of the two students who never did expect
such a dinner from a teacher in nutrition sciene)
Star Shooter - 22 Feb 2006 20:36 GMT
=>
=>It is all useless navel gazing.
=>
=>There are millions that do put in the effort needed and they still
=>fail.
=>
=>TC

They failed, because they mixed two problems/solutions together.
It is like fighting two front wars all at the same time.

We have
Problem number one -> Weight
Problem number two -> Exercise

exercise can get people healthy(if your weight does not crush you first) and
probably lose weight(not necessary true, if you eat them all back).

Diet to lose weight can get people healthy and light enough to move(and
exercise) and won't hurt self like incorrect exercise.

Now, come to the worst, people want to mix them together.
If we have will to do enough exercise, do you think we would be here in the
first place? So stop suggesting exercise.

Since exercise does not guarantee weight loss, forget all about it.
Let's focus our mind on diet only.

If one can lose weight by diet only, they can choose to exercise as an extra
bonus(or not).
TC - 22 Feb 2006 20:59 GMT
> =>
> =>It is all useless navel gazing.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> If one can lose weight by diet only, they can choose to exercise as an extra
> bonus(or not).

You are telling me that the vast majority of people (90 to 95%) who try
to lose weight simply are incapable of restricting their calories and
increasing their physical activity, at all, or a bit, or the minimum
needed to tip the caloric equation towards a deficit rather than an
excess.

Because it would not take a herculian effort to cutback a few hundred
calories of food a day. It ain't that difficult. Many do just that and
still get no lasting results.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

TC
GaryG - 23 Feb 2006 02:04 GMT
> > =>
> > =>It is all useless navel gazing.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> calories of food a day. It ain't that difficult. Many do just that and
> still get no lasting results.

Actually, if they *consistently* reduce their caloric intake by a few
hundred calories per day, they will lose weight.  Many have accomplished
it...it's not rocket science, but it does take patience and persistence.

As documented by the National Weight Control Registry project, most folks
who accomplish significant long-term weight loss success, also combine their
dietary efforts with a fairly significant amount of exercise (around 3000
calories per week burned in exercise).

Either strategy (reducing calories, or increasing exercise) will work, but
most folks find a combination of the two to be the most effective way to
lose weight and enhance health and vitality.

> Wake up and smell the coffee.

I do...every day.

> TC
TC - 23 Feb 2006 15:15 GMT
> Actually, if they *consistently* reduce their caloric intake by a few
> hundred calories per day, they will lose weight.  Many have accomplished
> it...it's not rocket science, but it does take patience and persistence.

Actually, it fails in 90 to 95% of cases. It should work in 90 to 95%
of cases if it were that simple and all it took was patience and
persistence. Or at least in 50% or 25%.

Many, many people do succeed in reducing their caloric intake by a few
hundred calories per day. That, in itself, is not hard to do,
consistently and persistently. But it fails in the end.

> As documented by the National Weight Control Registry project, most folks
> who accomplish significant long-term weight loss success, also combine their
> dietary efforts with a fairly significant amount of exercise (around 3000
> calories per week burned in exercise).

This National weight Control Registry?

National Weight Control Registry - James O. Hill, PhD

http://www.uchsc.edu/nutrition/Administration/admin.htm
http://www.uchsc.edu/nutrition/WyattJortberg/nwcr.htm
http://www.uchsc.edu/nutrition/Hill/hillbio.htm

James O. Hill, Ph.D., Professor of Pediatrics and Director, Center for
Human Nutrition at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center,
Denver, CO. Research support from Amgen, Hoffman-LaRoche, Procter &
Gamble, and Knoll Pharmaceuticals; has received consultant fees from
Knoll, Roche Laboratories, International Life Sciences Institute, and
Procter & Gamble and is a consultant to the Duke Diet and Fitness
Center. (Newark Star-Ledger, 2/17/97). President, North American
Association for the Study of Obesity. (USA Today, 9/1/98) Lead author
of a study on olestra supported by a grant from Procter & Gamble. (Am.
J. Clin. Nutr. 1998;67:1178-85) Co-wrote (with Barbara Rolls) a 1998
report for ILSI on "Carbohydrates and Weight Management." Participated
in a 3/25/99 panel assembled by the Sugar Association to inform New
York magazine editors about obesity, calories, and activity. (Sugar
Association's 1999 annual report,
http://www.foodingredientsonline.com; accessed 03/30/99) Research on
the effects of covert substitution of olestra for conventional fat on
spontaneous food intake supported by Procter & Gamble. (Am. J. Clin.
Nutr. 1998;67:1178-85) Research on the role of carbohydrates in weight
management was supported by the Sugar Association. (Letter from Sugar
Association to USDA; on file with CSPI; 4/16/99) Research on using
Orlistat for weight maintenance funded by Hoffmann-La Roche. (Am. J.
Clin. Nutr. 1999;69:1108-16) Member of the Foodfit.com advisory board.
(http://www.foodfit.com/about/advisoryBoard.asp; accessed 11/11/00)
Research on weight management supported in part by Abbott
Laboratories. (J. Amer. Coll. Nutr. 2001;20:26-31) Member of the
McDonald's Corporation Global Advisory Council on Healthy Lifestyles;
formed to "help guide the company on activities that address the need
for balanced, healthy lifestyles."
(http://www.mcdonalds.com/corporate/press/corporate/2003/05212003/;
accessed 6/23/03) Receives consulting fees from HealtheTech, Johnson &
Johnson, Procter & Gamble, and Coca-Cola. Receives speakers fees from
Abbott Laboratories, Roche Laboratories, and Kraft Foods. Receives
research funding from M&M Mars. (N. Engl. J. Med. 2003:348;2082-2090)
Member of the expert advisory board for the American Council for
Fitness and Nutrition. (http://www.acfn.org/about/advisory.html;
accessed 10/31/03)

***************

The Partnership to Promote Healthy Eating and Active Living

The mission of The Partnership to Promote Healthy Eating and Active
Living (the Partnership) is to promote healthy eating and physical
activity lifestyle behaviors through a public/private partnership
grounded on consumer understanding. These guidelines, based on our
mission, are to help formulate and manage relationships with the
Partnership's constituents and funders.

Officers of the Board of Directors (President, Secretary, and
Treasurer) will oversee Partnership acceptance of funds and
relationships with outside organizations and constituents according to
these guidelines. In cases when the source of funds or their use is
not clearly covered by these guidelines, the Officers will make the
final decision. The review process should address issues relating to
the Partnership's policy, ethics, business practices, corporate
identity, and reputation.

Board of Directors
James O. Hill, Ph.D. (Chair)
Director
Center for Human Nutrition
University of Colorado Health Sciences Center
Denver, CO

http://www.ppheal.org/board_of_directors.html
http://www.ppheal.org/our_sponsors.html

The Partnership to Promote Healthy Eating and Active Living, a
public-private nonprofit organization, is grateful to its many
sponsors.

America On the Move Sponsors
National Presenting Sponsor
PepsiCo's Wellward Choices
Program Sponsors
Cargill
Masterfoods USA
Conference Sponsors
Summit on Promoting Healthy Eating and Active Living: Developing a
Framework for Progress
Underwriters
Kellogg Company
Knoll Pharmaceutical Company
Kraft Foods
Masterfoods USA
Novartis
The Procter & Gamble Company
The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
Roche Laboratories
Contributors
American Diabetes Association
Consumer Federation of America
Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association
An Economic Analysis of Eating and Physical Activity Behaviors:
Exploring Effective Strategies to Combat Obesity
Major Donors
The Coca-Cola Company
Kraft Foods
The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
Other Contributors
General Mills
Kaiser Permanente
Kellogg Company
The Procter & Gamble Company

*******

James O. Hill

Chair, Advisory Committee for ILSI PAN program, 1995-present.

INTERNATIONAL LIFE SCIENCES INSTITUTE

Founded "in 1978 to work toward a safer, healthier world. ILSI is a
worldwide foundation that is making a difference in public health by
advancing the understanding of scientific issues related to nutrition,
food safety, toxicology, and the environment. ILSI is governed by an
Assembly of Members, which includes one representative from each of
its more than 400 member companies, and an elected Board of Trustees
of renowned scientists from academia and industry, all of whom
volunteer their time and expertise. ILSI members represent the world's
leading manufacturers of food and food ingredients, chemicals,
pharmaceuticals, and other consumer products."
(http://www.ilsi.org/about/; September 22, 2000) ILSI has branches in
about a dozen other countries/regions.

ILSI has received funding from the alcoholic beverage industry.
(Addiction. 2001;96:197-202)

ILSI's fall, 1996, N.Y. Academy of Science conference on fat
substitutes was funded in part by Procter & Gamble (Mother Jones,
May/June, 1997, p.14).

ILSI funders have included: Ajinomoto USA, Anheuser-Busch, ARCO
Chemical Co., Dannon, Domino Sugar Corp., Eastman Chemical Co., Kraft
Foods, Monsanto, Nabisco, Procter & Gamble, Wm. Wrigley Jr. Co.
("Members of ILSI," received 7/2/96).

1998 ILSI Board of Trustees

Dr. G. Harvey Anderson, University of Toronto
Dr. James R. Behnke
Dr. Roger M. Bektash
Dr. Joseph F. Borzelleca, Medical College of Virginia
Dr. Fergus Clydesdale, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Dr. G. Coccodrilli, Kraft Foods, Inc.
Dr. Oscar Cuper
Dr. Peter B. Dews, Harvard Medical School
Dr. Victor L. Fugoni III, Kellogg Company
Dr. Larry M. Games
Dr. Bernard D. Goldstein, Robert Wood Johnson Medical School
Dr. Yuzo Hayashi, National Institute of Hygienic Sciences, Japan
Dr. Marc Horisberger, Nestle Ltd., Switzerland
Dr. Shuichi Kimura, Showa Women's University, Japan
Dr. Curtis D. Klaassen
Dr. Frank N. Kotsonis, Monsanto Company
Dr. Louis Lasagna, Tufts University
Dr. Gordon Loewengart, Hoechst Celanese Corporation
Dr. Alex Malaspina, The Coca-Cola Company
Dr. R. Michael McClain, Hoffman-La Roche Inc.
Prof. Dr. Ulrich Mohr, Hannover Medical School, Germany
Dr. Keiichi Morimoto
Dr. Efren Parada-Arias
Prof. Marcel Roberfroid, Catholic University of Louvain, Belgium
Dr. Hugh A. Sampson, Johns Hopkins University
Dr. Barbara O. Schneeman, University of California at Davis
Dr. Yukio Sogo, Snow Brand Milk Products Co., Ltd., Japan
Dr. James W. Stanley, PepsiCo, Inc.
Prof. Dr. Vichai Tanphaichitr, Mahidol University, Thailand
Michael R. Taylor, Esq.
Mr. Alfred W. Wishart, Jr., The Pittsburgh Foundation
Dr. Yasushi Yamamoto, Kirin Brewery Company, Ltd., Japan.

Members of ILSI North America:

3M Microbiology
Ajinomoto U.S.A., Inc.
Archer Daniels Midland Company
BASF Corporation
Bristol-Myers Squibb Company
Burger King Corporation
Campbell Soup Company
Cargill, Incorporated
The Coca-Cola Company
Corn Products International, Inc.
Danisco Cultor America, Inc.
E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Company
General Mills, Inc.
Gerber Products Company
H.J. Heinz Company
Hershey Foods Corporation
International Flavors & Fragrances, Inc.
Kellogg Company
Kraft Foods, Inc.
Masterfoods USA
McCormick & Company, Inc.
McNeil Nutritionals
Mead Johnson Nutritionals
Monsanto Company
National Starch and Chemical Company
Nestlé USA, Inc.
Novozymes North America, Inc.
The NutraSweet Company
Nutrinova, Inc.
Ocean Spray Cranberries, Inc.
The Pepsi-Cola Company
Pfizer, Inc.
The Proctor & Gamble Company
Red Bull
Roche Vitamins, Inc.
Ross Products Division/Abbott Laboratories
Sethness Products Company
Taco Bell Corporation
Takasago International Corporation (USA)
Tate & Lyle
Unilever Bestfoods NA
Wm. Wrigley Jr. Company
Wyeth Nutritionals International
(http://www.ilsi.org/misc/NAassem.pdf; accessed 6/2/03)

***********

sugar industry funded a report by Hill:

http://www.sugar.org/science/carbohydrates.html

lookie, he sells a weight loss book:

http://books.bankhacker.com/James+O.+Hill/

The Step Diet Book: Count Steps, Not Calories, To Lose Weight and
Keep It Off Forever by James O., Ph.d. Hill, John C. Peters, Bonnie T.
Jortberg, Pamela M., Md. Peeke, James O. Hill $22.95

Consultancies and other affiliations:

http://www.milkpep.org/newsroom/jameshill.cfm

http://www.entelos.com/news/pressArchive/press9.html

******
not disclosing financial interests:

http://cspinet.org/new/pdf/letter_to_science.pdf

James O. Hill, et al. "Obesity and the Environment: Where Do We Go
From
Here?" February 7, 2003, p. 853-5.
This article contains no disclosures, though Dr. Hill has significant
financial ties
that pose conflicts of interest in connection with this paper. For
example, Dr.
Hill's research on weight management has been supported by Abbott
Laboratories, Amgen, Hoffman-LaRoche, Procter & Gamble, and Knoll
Pharmaceuticals, and the Sugar Association. He has received consulting
fees
from Knoll, Roche Laboratories, International Life Sciences Institute,
and Procter
& Gamble; served as a consultant to the Duke Diet and Fitness Center;
and is a
member of the McDonald's Corporation Global Advisory Council on
Healthy
Lifestyles.

*******

supports the use of drugs in weight management:

http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/2004/01_04/wyatt.htm

Summary
Obesity is a chronic medical disorder that is not going away anytime
soon. Physicians need all the education, tools, and resources possible
to successfully help their overweight and obese patients. Weight-loss
medications alone are clearly not the answer. However, they are one
tool physicians can use in combination with lifestyle changes to
increase the success of long-term weight loss in selected patients.

(and again, no disclosures)

*****

more affiliations:

http://www.internationaldietetics.org/pdf/ICD_KNS2004flyer2.pdf

Kellogg Nutrition Symposium 2004 Building Healthy Communities:
Improving the health of the population one community at a time

James O Hill is a speaker, wonder what he was paid by Kellogg

*******
"study" funded by weight watchers:

http://www.weightwatchers.com/about/prs/wwi_template.aspx?GCMSID=1002911

Leading scientists in the field of obesity collaborated in the study
including, Stanley Heshka, NY Obesity Research Center, St.
Luke's/Roosevelt Hospital and Columbia University; Frank Greenway,
Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Louisiana State University;
James W. Anderson, VA Medical Center, Lexington, and University of
Kentucky; Richard L. Atkinson, Nutritional Sciences, University of
Wisconsin;

James O. Hill, Health Sciences, University of Colorado;

Stephen Phinney, Department of Medicine, UC Davis, and Monsanto, Inc,
Davis; Ronette L. Kolotkin, Obesity and Quality of Life Consulting,
Durham, NC, Karen Miller-Kovach, M.S., R.D., Chief Scientific Officer,
Weight Watchers International; and F. Xavier Pi-Sunyer, NY Obesity
Research Center, St. Luke's/Roosevelt Hospital and Columbia
University. This study was funded by a grant from the Weight Watchers
Foundation.

********

> Either strategy (reducing calories, or increasing exercise) will work, but
> most folks find a combination of the two to be the most effective way to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I do...every day.

Smell that coffee then tell me what you think of the Weight Control
Registry and the resident industry mouthpiece James O. Hill.

TC
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 02:15 GMT
>Actually, if they *consistently* reduce their caloric intake by a few
>hundred calories per day, they will lose weight.  Many have accomplished
>it...it's not rocket science, but it does take patience and persistence.

Depends on how active you are. Having a PAL value less than 1.2, often
observed today, decreasing diet down to BMR values can be dangerous
because the nutrition will then often be devoid in important low
molecular organic molecules like antioxidants, osmolytes, but also in
mineral, vitamin and trace element composition. And then, the process
normally associated with getting elderly accelerates tremendously,
making even young people dement or giving them other chronic diseases,
which even more harms intestines ability to absorb nutrients, like
coelic disease do, and then you are in a bad circle, ending up with
either hospitalisation for ever, or far too early death.
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 02:26 GMT
>As documented by the National Weight Control Registry project, most folks
>who accomplish significant long-term weight loss success, also combine their
>dietary efforts with a fairly significant amount of exercise (around 3000
>calories per week burned in exercise).

3000 ckal a week?? You didn't mean pr day?? 400 kcal a day is not
much.

Lumbers did use 8000 kcal a day, a mechanical worker in a car factory
in elder days used about 4000 a day (around 1200 BMR). A farmer often
exceed 5000 kcal.

But, most people don't eat less than 3000-4000 kcal, they just don't
dare to admit it.
I once used a person as test for the Acticalc program for which I also
had food intake data. There was very little connection btw. intake and
expenditure in period of being very physically active. At active days,
the person reported very low intake of food while often spending about
14000 kJ or more a day, and at same time reporting food intake of
around 3000 kJ or less. Next day, the person often had a black day,
reporting intake of more than 8000 kJ and expenditure down around 4000
kJ. She increased weight in the testing period with about 2 kg. Most
probably from increased drinking of water. (Unfortunately we didn't
measure water intake and urine/sweat excretion which most probably
would have explained the differences btw food intake and total
expenditure for the 6 day long testing period.) By the way, none of
the other persons observed did have such deviance btw. intake and
expenditure.
GaryG - 25 Feb 2006 06:52 GMT
> >As documented by the National Weight Control Registry project, most folks
> >who accomplish significant long-term weight loss success, also combine their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 3000 ckal a week?? You didn't mean pr day?? 400 kcal a day is not
> much.

Exercising enough to burn 400 kcal/day is a significant challenge in terms
of time and/or intensity for many people.

For a 175 lb male, it would require walking about 4 miles (about 1 hr and 10
minutes at a fairly brisk 3.5 mph pace).  You can burn calories faster if
you exercise with more intensity, but most out of shape people are incapable
of that.

GG

> Lumbers did use 8000 kcal a day, a mechanical worker in a car factory
> in elder days used about 4000 a day (around 1200 BMR). A farmer often
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> the other persons observed did have such deviance btw. intake and
> expenditure.
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 15:07 GMT
>For a 175 lb male, it would require walking about 4 miles (about 1 hr and 10
>minutes at a fairly brisk 3.5 mph pace).  You can burn calories faster if
>you exercise with more intensity, but most out of shape people are incapable
>of that.

Or by helping your wife vacuum cleaning the house daily and perhaps
wash the ceiling weekly :-) I guess you will sweat :-)
Star Shooter - 23 Feb 2006 20:49 GMT
=>
=>Star Shooter wrote:
=>>
=>> =>
=>> =>It is all useless navel gazing.
=>> =>
=>> =>There are millions that do put in the effort needed and they still
=>> =>fail.
=>> =>
=>> =>TC
=>>
=>> They failed, because they mixed two problems/solutions together.
=>> It is like fighting two front wars all at the same time.
=>>
=>> We have
=>> Problem number one -> Weight
=>> Problem number two -> Exercise
=>>
=>> exercise can get people healthy(if your weight does not crush you first) and
=>> probably lose weight(not necessary true, if you eat them all back).
=>>
=>> Diet to lose weight can get people healthy and light enough to move(and
=>> exercise) and won't hurt self like incorrect exercise.
=>>
=>> Now, come to the worst, people want to mix them together.
=>> If we have will to do enough exercise, do you think we would be here in the
=>> first place? So stop suggesting exercise.
=>>
=>> Since exercise does not guarantee weight loss, forget all about it.
=>> Let's focus our mind on diet only.
=>>
=>> If one can lose weight by diet only, they can choose to exercise as an extra
=>> bonus(or not).
=>
=>You are telling me that the vast majority of people (90 to 95%) who try
=>to lose weight simply are incapable of restricting their calories and
=>increasing their physical activity, at all, or a bit, or the minimum
=>needed to tip the caloric equation towards a deficit rather than an
=>excess.

The numbers speak for itself. I was only pointing out the obvious and
suggesting on focusing  on one task will be easier and last longer than
fighting two front wars at the same time.

=>
=>Because it would not take a herculian effort to cutback a few hundred
=>calories of food a day. It ain't that difficult. Many do just that and
=>still get no lasting results.
=>
=>Wake up and smell the coffee.
=>
=>TC
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 02:11 GMT
>You are telling me that the vast majority of people (90 to 95%) who try
>to lose weight simply are incapable of restricting their calories and
>increasing their physical activity, at all, or a bit, or the minimum
>needed to tip the caloric equation towards a deficit rather than an
>excess.

the funny thing is that extremely thick persons has a higher PAL value
than not so fat people, just because the need far more energy to move
their body around, due to pure physical laws. (Yes, it is measurable.
People above BMI of 35 need to correct estimates of PAR values about
10-15% in order to get correct values when comparing energy
expenditure using Actireg compared to gold method, using dilution of
double lable water.
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 02:07 GMT
>They failed, because they mixed two problems/solutions together.
>It is like fighting two front wars all at the same time.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Diet to lose weight can get people healthy and light enough to move(and
>exercise) and won't hurt self like incorrect exercise.

Hm. reminds me about old lumbers drinking a big bottle of fluid
margarin or butter in the morning before going out in forest to use
the huge two-man enabled manual saw or the big axes. Measurements
often concluded a daily energy expenditure of more than 7000 kcal.
Many passing even 8500 kcal if very productive in perhaps wading in
more than 2 m loose dry snow.

The problem today is, noone do anymore such works, but still eat the
diet needed to cut down a big forest daily :-)
Cubit - 20 Feb 2006 15:57 GMT
[snip]
And there are millions of people that do put in a genuine effort and
succeed in cutting caloric intake but without the expected and desired
results.
[snip]

Nonsense.  Weight gain and loss is directly linked to calories.  When humans
are caloricaly restricted their behavior changes.   They cheat.  We think we
have control over our lives, but the evidence shows that innate survival
drives can alter the perceptions of the conscious mind and change behavior.

Diets don't fail.  People do.
TC - 20 Feb 2006 16:25 GMT
> [snip]
> And there are millions of people that do put in a genuine effort and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Diets don't fail.  People do.

People fail but calories don't. Sure. That explains it all.

TC
sycochkn - 20 Feb 2006 17:27 GMT
I am neither trying to gain or lose weight. I am dieting for better
nutrition. I also cheat. To much salt too many non nutritional calories.

Bob

> [snip]
> And there are millions of people that do put in a genuine effort and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Diets don't fail.  People do.
Star Shooter - 22 Feb 2006 20:56 GMT
=>
=>Nonsense.  Weight gain and loss is directly linked to calories.  When humans
=>are caloricaly restricted their behavior changes.   They cheat.  We think we
=>have control over our lives, but the evidence shows that innate survival
=>drives can alter the perceptions of the conscious mind and change behavior.
=>
=>Diets don't fail.  People do.
=>

Some diet plans(ie. low carb) are easier for weak minded overweight people
like us to follow than some other plans which ask us to fight hunger and
craving with our weak will.

Remember, if we have strong will, we won't be here in the first place and we
need no help at all.

Weak mind person is written all over our body even on the face. Yelling us
with known fact is showing how ignorant you are. Finally, we are really not
that interested in people showing how stupid they are.
Joe the Aroma - 22 Feb 2006 21:27 GMT
> =>
> =>Nonsense.  Weight gain and loss is directly linked to calories.  When
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> not
> that interested in people showing how stupid they are.

I'm not weak minded at all. Hell I was losing weight on a calorie restricted
diet (fat too restricted), but LC dieting is funner so I switched.
TC - 22 Feb 2006 21:27 GMT
> > =>
> > =>Nonsense.  Weight gain and loss is directly linked to calories.  When
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> I'm not weak minded at all. Hell I was losing weight on a calorie restricted
> diet (fat too restricted), but LC dieting is funner so I switched.

Everyone is strong willed until they start involuntarily gaining
weight, then a switch goes off and they all become weak-willed. That
explains it all.

TC
Star Shooter - 23 Feb 2006 21:00 GMT
=>
=>Joe the Aroma wrote:

--snip snip--

=>> I'm not weak minded at all. Hell I was losing weight on a calorie restricted
=>> diet (fat too restricted), but LC dieting is funner so I switched.
=>
=>Everyone is strong willed until they start involuntarily gaining
=>weight, then a switch goes off and they all become weak-willed. That
=>explains it all.
=>
=>TC

Know thy truth self is the first step toward success.

I am lazy, so I don't exercise.
I am weak minded, so no Carb foods in my house.
Loop:
I lose weight in lbs within weeks, because I want to see it in progress to
boost my weak mind.
I stall, because I am afraid of losing weight too fast.
goto Loop:
Cubit - 22 Feb 2006 23:17 GMT
> =>
> =>Nonsense.  Weight gain and loss is directly linked to calories.  When humans
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> with known fact is showing how ignorant you are. Finally, we are really not
> that interested in people showing how stupid they are.

In the face of hunger (or thirst) willpower always fails.

I try to lead people to the idea of manipulating hunger and the "appestat"
through portion control, frequent mini-meals, and  low carb high fat
macronutrient ratios.  A strong feedback system, such as provided by food
journaling in Fitday is important too.
Susan - 22 Feb 2006 23:33 GMT
> In the face of hunger (or thirst) willpower always fails.

Have you heard of anorexia?  Supermodels?  Jockeys?

Susan
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 02:32 GMT
>Have you heard of anorexia?  Supermodels?  Jockeys?

Increased GABA production during starving has a bad side of making you
feel very happy (most probably a survival mechanism in hunger
catastrophs or left alone in a desert or alike when it is important to
not being depressed and give up, even though there are no edible food
available)

It might be a part of the mechanism behind extreme slimming. It feels
just like taking speed.
GaryG - 23 Feb 2006 02:07 GMT
> > =>
> > =>Nonsense.  Weight gain and loss is directly linked to calories.  When
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> In the face of hunger (or thirst) willpower always fails.

I think in our modern world, we've forgotten what hunger really is.  I get
the impression that for most overweight people, "hunger" means "my stomach
isn't full", not "I've not eaten in 6 hours".

GG

> I try to lead people to the idea of manipulating hunger and the "appestat"
> through portion control, frequent mini-meals, and  low carb high fat
> macronutrient ratios.  A strong feedback system, such as provided by food
> journaling in Fitday is important too.
Roger Zoul - 23 Feb 2006 04:11 GMT
> I think in our modern world, we've forgotten what hunger really is.  I get
> the impression that for most overweight people, "hunger" means "my stomach
> isn't full", not "I've not eaten in 6 hours".

I think that's very true.
Joe the Aroma - 23 Feb 2006 14:49 GMT
>> > =>
>> > =>Nonsense.  Weight gain and loss is directly linked to calories.  When
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> GG

Well that is hunger, unless you've just woken up you shouldn't go for 6
hours without eating.

>> I try to lead people to the idea of manipulating hunger and the
>> "appestat"
>> through portion control, frequent mini-meals, and  low carb high fat
>> macronutrient ratios.  A strong feedback system, such as provided by food
>> journaling in Fitday is important too.
TC - 23 Feb 2006 15:02 GMT
> > > =>
> > > =>Nonsense.  Weight gain and loss is directly linked to calories.  When
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> GG

You may have something there. It has been shown that hfcs and refined
carbs fail to satiate and may cause excessive eating by stimulating
hunger rather than appeasing it.

Is that the persons fault? You sound as if it is their fault and it has
nothing to do with the garbage carbs that are being sold as healthy and
low fat. Why are we so quick to blame the victim?

TC
Star Shooter - 23 Feb 2006 21:07 GMT
=>You may have something there. It has been shown that hfcs and refined
=>carbs fail to satiate and may cause excessive eating by stimulating
=>hunger rather than appeasing it.
=>
=>Is that the persons fault? You sound as if it is their fault and it has
=>nothing to do with the garbage carbs that are being sold as healthy and
=>low fat. Why are we so quick to blame the victim?
=>
=>TC

Could be a good point.
But, we are the only owners of our own bodies. If you give up your own bodies,
why do you expect anyone to respect your own bodies?

Anyway, there is no point of finger pointing. The important part is to educate
people and educate self.
GaryG - 24 Feb 2006 02:34 GMT
> > > > =>
> > > > =>Nonsense.  Weight gain and loss is directly linked to calories.  When
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> TC

I'm not "blaming" anyone, but each of us chooses what we put into our
bodies.  I would get just  as fat on a 4000 calorie per day bacon, sausage
and bunless burger diet as I would on a 4000 calorie per day candy and soda
diet.  It's my choices to limit calories that allow me to maintain a healthy
weight.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've been able to maintain at 170 lbs (I'm 6'
tall) for a couple of years now by simply eating a bit less and exercising a
bit more.  I don't drink sodas, and I rarely eat beef, bacon, etc.  I try to
get lots of fresh fruits, nuts, and vegetables every day.  I also try to
limit foods I know are calorie dense but nutrient poor (e.g., cookies,
cakes, bread, etc.) but I still enjoy them from time to time in moderation.
From what I know of LC, this would not qualify as an LC diet (more like
South Beach or Mediterranean, I suspect).

As I've stated before, I think LC can be useful for some people, just as
low-fat, South Beach, and other diets can be.  However, none of them have
very good track records at the 1-year mark and beyond...which just
illustrates that patience and persistence are required (as they are with
many other things in life).

GG
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 02:43 GMT
>Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've been able to maintain at 170 lbs (I'm 6'
>tall) for a couple of years now by simply eating a bit less and exercising a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>From what I know of LC, this would not qualify as an LC diet (more like
>South Beach or Mediterranean, I suspect).

And if you were a lumberjacker working daily at an average of 7000
kcal a day, you would start slimming very fast and soon don¨'t have
energy at all to work on a diet of only 4000 kcal a day :-)

Only office workers has that low energy expenditure.

Even home ladies had a bigger energy expenditure than that 100 years
ago when everything has to be done manually, unless the home was full
of servants doing all kinds of work for you.

With all helping aids in a home, the need for energy expenditure has
fallen radically. but diet hasn't changed at all, more probably has
increased in caloric intake, mostly because home life is boring when
machines are doing all kind of works for you, washing clothes,
dishwashing, vacuum cleaners clean the house etc. and when bored, you
need to chew something, like chocolate or sugar laden chewing gum :-)
Or just as worse, sorbitol laden chewing gum which no person tell the
nutritonist they are chewing two or maybe five or more packets daily,
in addition to "sugar free" candies with maltose, dextrose, sorbitol,
mannitol etc. etc. as sweeteners, giving exactly as much kcal as
sugar, but who thinks about that. Not containing sugar, must be free
of calories, so why bother to tell the interviewer about that ?? :-)
Roger Zoul - 20 Feb 2006 17:14 GMT
:: 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.

[snipped the useless stuff]

:: ************************
::
:: 2) Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight
:: loss in humans fails 95% of the time.

Now, had your subject reflected this statement, TC, then I'd have no issue
with you.  This statement suggests that as a practical matter, people refuse
to restrict calories 95% of the time to achieve or maintain weight loss.
Agreed.  In times of cheap but good tasting junk foods, people would rather
stuff their faces than go hungry or do without something that makes them
feel good.  Understandable, really. But, you're saying calories don't count.
That, I'm not so sure about....

Less calories = less nutrient-containing food = less usable matter = less
energy for the body = less body

:: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/309/6955/655
::
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
:: conference, which also warned about the adverse effects of
:: treatment.2 "

I have no problem with that statement as it stands.

:: If it were as simple as restricting caloric intake and increasing
:: exercise, the vast majority of people of put in a modicum of effort
:: would lose at least weight over time and they would successfully keep
:: it off.

The vast majority of people who try, do lose weight.  The vast majorit of
people who lose weight using mere calorie restriction, fail at maintaining
calorie restriction.

There is plenty of low-cal food available at the local
:: grocer. And there are millions of people that do put in a genuine
:: effort and succeed in cutting caloric intake but without the
:: expected and desired results.

This is where you aren't seeing clearly.  "If you do what you've always
done, you'll get what you've always got."

:: Applying the low calorie diet and the
:: very low calorie diet in the real world does not result in the
:: desired weight loss in 90 to 95% of cases.

It does not result in maintaining the weight loss because people get bored
with 1) counting, 2) eating boring foods, 3) being without stuff they like,
4) etc.

:: *******************
::
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
:: calories become the red-headed step-child with no role to play
:: whatsoever.

Where is your reference for this?  Are these your statements?

Maybe we should hold a contest where people just eat 6000 calories / day
steak or the fatty meats for a week and see if there is no weight gain.  I'd
enjoy that.  Zero carb for one week at a fix calorie level that would
produced weight gain.  One of us would have to shut the hell up at the end
of that week, TC.  Would you enjoy that? :)

:: ********
::
:: I am sure that calories mean something somewhere.

More calories from food = more bio-usable mass entering the body = more
weight stored on body

Possibly at the
:: extremes of the scales, we may need a certain minimum amount of
:: calories for our bodies to be able to function properly, and at the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
:: It is a very simple concept. Burn more calories than you consume.
:: Except it fails in the real world.

No, for thoses who do it, it works.  The problem is, most can't sustain it
for various reasons.  Think about it. A lot of people get fat over time.
They get used to eating a certain way and having the foods they enjoy.  They
get used to a lifestyle.  Then, they become unsightly or unhealthy.  To
address it requires a major lifestyle change which has been developed over a
period of time.  But most would apparently rather live with the consequences
than do the work to make the major change in lifestyle.

TC, you're a good LCer for sure.  But I think the reason you don't really
get this is because you were only ever 20 lbs overweight.  You found LC and
it diminshed your appetite without any discomfort and you got your weight
under control.  And you continue that without any major lifestyle change
since you eat foods you like (cause LC food is good). Good deal, really.
However, you, to your benefit, have never been a true fat person like me.
Hence, you don't have the 'monkey on your back' as people like me do. We
have to work harder to maintain.  That's just how it is. Most don't want to
do they work.  I do, because if I don't, my future will indeed not be a good
one.
TC - 20 Feb 2006 17:47 GMT
> :: 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>
> [snipped the useless stuff]

You snipped the most important stuff. How am I to view your input when
you fail to grasp the importance of what you snipped? I suggest you
read it again carefully and fully appreciate what is being said.

> :: ************************
> ::
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
>
> Where is your reference for this?  Are these your statements?

Can you describe the metabolic process or the biological mechanism that
is triggered by caloric balance that, in turn, triggers fat storage or
loss? If I am wrong then you will be able to give em simple and concise
description. Go for it.

I can give you references that explain the effects of carbs, fats and
proteins on our physiology. But that is easy. Just read any bio-chem
textbook available.

> Maybe we should hold a contest where people just eat 6000 calories / day
> steak or the fatty meats for a week and see if there is no weight gain.  I'd
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> More calories from food = more bio-usable mass entering the body = more
> weight stored on body

How exactly? By what explicit mechanism? You keep saying it but you
fail to show the exact biological processes that do this in direct
response to calories consumed.

> Possibly at the
> :: extremes of the scales, we may need a certain minimum amount of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> No, for thoses who do it, it works.

90 to 95% failure rates.

> The problem is, most can't sustain it
> for various reasons.

Because it does not work.

> Think about it. A lot of people get fat over time.

Every one who gets fat gets fat over time.

> They get used to eating a certain way and having the foods they enjoy.  They
> get used to a lifestyle.  Then, they become unsightly or unhealthy.  To
> address it requires a major lifestyle change which has been developed over a
> period of time.  But most would apparently rather live with the consequences
> than do the work to make the major change in lifestyle.

They get used to eating a high-grain high-sugar high-carb diet. Then
they try to lose weight by restricting high-fat high-calorie foods and
eating more low calorie grains starches. They eat less calories but
still fail to lose weight, esoecially long term.

> TC, you're a good LCer for sure.  But I think the reason you don't really
> get this is because you were only ever 20 lbs overweight.  You found LC and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> do they work.  I do, because if I don't, my future will indeed not be a good
> one.

I will agree with you. Once you pack on that much weight, it becomes
nearly impossible to take it off. You really have your work cut out for
you.

But it wasn't the fat that packed it on and it wasn't the calories that
packed it on in the first place. That is the fallacy that we much
recognise and understand.

When you eat primarily animal fats and proteins, and fresh whole
(non-starchy) produce in your diet with little or no refined and highly
manufactured carbs, it is actually difficult to eat enough to gain
excess fat. the calories seem to not make any difference either way.
And when most of your diet is refined and high GI carbs, grains
specifically, with little animal fats and proteins, it is virtually
impossible to not gain weight. Calories seem to not matter either way,
yet again. And studies have shown that low carbers can eat up to 300
calories more than low-cal dieters and still lose as much or more
weight. That study was well controlled and showed this clearly.

That was approximately 15 or more percent variance. Were they wrong in
their calorie counts by 15% in a controlled study with professionals
doing the counting? If pros are that far off in a controlled study then
of what use are calories to us laymen. So which is wrong: the calorie
counts on the food labels? the people doing the counting at every meal?
The initial calorie valuations that pegged it at 4 cal per gram of
proteins and carbs and 9 per gram of fat? Or the concept that this all
is directly applicable to animals and their weights?

Where is it wrong? Just the dieters? I don't think so.

And this takes us back to the most important part of the equation.
There is no science that specifically found that calories are
applicable to animals as far as fat management is concerned. We base
our beliefs in this system on what? Because they said so? There is no
study that supports the "establishment by Lavoisier and Laplace in 1785
of the law of conservation of energy in its application of animals"

It does not exist.

TC
GaryG - 20 Feb 2006 20:11 GMT
> > :: 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 206 lines]
> There is no science that specifically found that calories are
> applicable to animals as far as fat management is concerned.

LOL - tell that to a rancher.  They feed their animals just enough excess
calories to "marble" the beef.

GG

> We base
> our beliefs in this system on what? Because they said so? There is no
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> TC
Roger Zoul - 20 Feb 2006 20:39 GMT
::: Roger Zoul wrote:
:::: TC wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 219 lines]
:: LOL - tell that to a rancher.  They feed their animals just enough
:: excess calories to "marble" the beef.

Oh no!  You proved this point - they feed them CARBS (grain) to marble the
beef! :)

:: GG
::
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
:::
::: TC
GaryG - 20 Feb 2006 20:49 GMT
> ::: Roger Zoul wrote:
> :::: TC wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 222 lines]
> Oh no!  You proved this point - they feed them CARBS (grain) to marble the
> beef! :)

Well, I'm agnostic on the issue of low-carb.  From what I've read, it can be
a good diet strategy for some folks.  Not because it allows your body to
violate the laws of thermodynamics, but because it allows for "satiety".  By
feeling "satisifed" one eats less...less *calories*.  I think this can be a
prticularly effective strategy if : a) one's "problem foods" are carbs
(e.g., bread, rice, etc.), and b) one is not engaged in endurance sports.

As for the ranchers...they fatten up their beef by feeding grains because
they're cheaper, on a per-calorie basis, than other alternatives.  It's the
caloric excess that fatten the cows (bovine and otherwise).

GG

> :: GG
> ::
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> :::
> ::: TC
Roger Zoul - 20 Feb 2006 21:08 GMT
:: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:::
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
:: Well, I'm agnostic on the issue of low-carb.  From what I've read,
:: it can be a good diet strategy for some folks.

Make that many folks in the US who are sedentary.

Not because it
:: allows your body to violate the laws of thermodynamics, but because
:: it allows for "satiety".  By feeling "satisifed" one eats
:: less...less *calories*.

Of course....

:: I think this can be a prticularly effective
:: strategy if : a) one's "problem foods" are carbs (e.g., bread, rice,
:: etc.), and b) one is not engaged in endurance sports.

Well, if I need to ride a century I eat lots of carbs before and during.  If
I'm not, I don't. You do one thing (carbwise) for weight loss and another
for maintenance.  Also, most realistic plans match carb intake with physical
activity level.  The problem with carbs is that most people overconsume then
in relation to their activity level.  It's not they they are purely evil
(well, those from grains are! :)

:: As for the ranchers...they fatten up their beef by feeding grains
:: because they're cheaper, on a per-calorie basis, than other
:: alternatives.  It's the caloric excess that fatten the cows (bovine
:: and otherwise).

Yeah, grains are cheap and tasty and that's why we as a whole eat so many of
them. And, we as a whole don't get appetite suppression and hence want to
eat every 20 minutes (ie, after chinese).  That ensure we get plenty of
calories. Imagine the poor cows....they're hungry again 20 minutes after the
last feeding....great way to force feed more calories. Make 'em want it by
dicking with their BG levels....yep.
Enrico C - 25 Feb 2006 21:42 GMT
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:49:35 -0800, GaryG wrote in
<news:oXpKf.71$3V7.39@fe06.lga> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

> Well, I'm agnostic on the issue of low-carb. From what I've read, it can be
> a good diet strategy for some folks.  Not because it allows your body to
> violate the laws of thermodynamics, but because it allows for "satiety".  By
> feeling "satisifed" one eats less...less *calories*.  I think this can be a
> prticularly effective strategy if : a) one's "problem foods" are carbs
> (e.g., bread, rice, etc.), and b) one is not engaged in endurance sports.

You hit the nail on the head. Satiety is key.
High-protein foods, for instance, are generally satiating, while food
and drinks containing added sugar are not.

But then, not all "low carb" meals are very satiating.
And some "high carb" foods can be quite satiating, especially when
they also are rich in fiber.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=10435117&query_hl=16&itool=pubmed_docsum


Int J Food Sci Nutr. 1999 Jan;50(1):13-28.     Related Articles, Links

   The effects of high-carbohydrate vs high-fat breakfasts on
feelings of fullness and alertness, and subsequent food intake.

   Holt SH, Delargy HJ, Lawton CL, Blundell JE.

   Human Nutrition Unit, University of Sydney, NSW, Australia.

   Fourteen subjects consumed four realistic isoenergetic (2035 kJ)
breakfasts, varying in macronutrient content (two fat-rich, two
carbohydrate-rich (low- and high-fibre)), in random order on separate
mornings. After breakfast, subjects left the laboratory and completed
appetite and alertness ratings at specific times and recorded all
subsequent fluid and food intake for the rest of the day. The
high-fibre, carbohydrate-rich breakfast was the least palatable but
most filling meal and was associated with less food intake during the
morning and at lunch. Hunger returned at a slower rate after this meal
than after the low-fibre, carbohydrate-rich meal. Both fat-rich
breakfasts were more palatable but less satiating than the
carbohydrate-rich meals and were followed by greater food intake
during the morning, which may be a compensatory response to ingest a
sufficient amount of food and/or carbohydrate to match the level of
fullness produced by the subjects' habitual breakfasts. By the end of
the day, the average total energy intake was significantly greater
after the fat-rich EB meal than after the high-fibre,
carbohydrate-rich meal (P < 0.05). Total day fat intakes were also
significantly greater when the high-fat breakfasts were eaten. For
every individual test, alertness ratings increased immediately after
breakfast was consumed. On average, the high-fibre carbohydrate-rich
meal was associated with the highest post-breakfast alertness ratings
and with the greatest cumulative amount of alertness during the period
between breakfast and lunch (AUC). Alertness AUC values up until lunch
correlated positively with fullness AUC values (r = 0.36, P < 0.01, n
= 56). The results confirm the relatively weak satiating power of
fat-rich meals observed in controlled laboratory-based studies and
indicate that a high-fibre, carbohydrate-rich breakfast may assist
weight control efforts by maintaining fullness. Further research is
required to determine whether satiety directly enhances alertness and
whether low-GI carbohydrate-rich meals enhance alertness to a greater
degree than high-GI meals.

   Publication Types:

       * Clinical Trial
       * Randomized Controlled Trial

   PMID: 10435117 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
jbuch - 20 Feb 2006 17:31 GMT
"Probably don't count" is not the same as "Actually don't count"

Your argument is quite weak and deceptive....  See below.

"A Very Highly Regarded...." begins to sound like an advertising claim
without substantiation.

> *
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> paper that originally established "the law of conservation of energy in
> its application of animals"?

This is crappy textbook writing, if it in fact exists, of the form of
retelling yet again of an unfounded urban legend as fact.

Happens often, unfortunately.

Not the big deal you make of it.  And it does sound like you are
repeating, or could be repeating, another urban myth.

> ************************
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> USA Beck Institute for Cognitive Therapy and Research, Bala Cynwood,
> Pennsylvania 19001, USA Correspondence to: Dr Wooley.

This appears to be "scientific work" by "Shrinks", not physiologists  or
MD's.

> It is surprising that debate continues about the effectiveness of
> dietary treatments for obesity. Perhaps this is partly related to
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> the real world does not result in the desired weight loss in 90 to 95%
> of cases.

There is nothing "Scientific" in this short piece, and it could be the
result of anybody who does much popular reading.

> *******************

There is no "Referenced Source" for the information below. It could be
the typing of a pretty smart canine on the web. It could be...... anything.

> 3) There exists no specific bio-chemical mechanism that monitors or is
> triggered by calories to affect weight gain or fat storage and weight
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> TC

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

TC - 20 Feb 2006 18:02 GMT
> "Probably don't count" is not the same as "Actually don't count"
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Not the big deal you make of it.  And it does sound like you are
> repeating, or could be repeating, another urban myth.

second ed. of White, Handler and Smith "Principles of Biochemistry"
Chaper 1 and
Chapter 15 (metabolism) plus the citations and references therin. It
states: (pp8)  "Three historic discoveries led to the concept that the
fundamental laws of phsics and chemistry, which apply to nonliving
systems, also apply to living structures.  These discoveries are (1)
the establishment by Lavoisier and Laplace in 1785 of the law of
conservation of energy in its application of animals"-- (the others
have to do with (2) synthesis of urea and (3) fermentation). (pp9) "In
living, as in nonliving, systems therefore, these laws of physical
chemistry require that energy must be supplied in orderto accomplish
the reversal of a spontaneous process or for the synthesis of a new
compound from precursors of lower energy content".
*

This textbook is used in most, if not all, universities in North
America. Go to your nearest medical library at your nearest medical
university and read it for yourself.

My guess is that you did not even do that before you chose to rag on
the very textbook that most medical people are taught from in North
America.

I am sure that the professors that use this textbook will probably
disagree with your glib comments about this textbook.

The text you see quoted was written by a professor: pbeyer
<pbe...@kumc.edu>
He was trying to provide me with definitive scientific proof that
calories do count. Except that the study that was referenced in the
textbook did not exist. I've not heard from him since. That was in
2002. I gather that he was quite embarassed that the textbook was
fraudulent on this reference.

If you have a better textbook that you want to quote and reference, go
for it. Most textbooks use real references to support their teachings.

TC
jbuch - 21 Feb 2006 01:16 GMT
>>"Probably don't count" is not the same as "Actually don't count"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>>Not the big deal you make of it.  And it does sound like you are
>>repeating, or could be repeating, another urban myth.

It is evident that since the text appears to be giving a non-existant
"scientific reference", it is in the class of crappy textbook writing.

Nothing has changed.

People believe false things all the time..

> second ed. of White, Handler and Smith "Principles of Biochemistry"
> Chaper 1 and
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> America. Go to your nearest medical library at your nearest medical
> university and read it for yourself.

It is the type of urban legend reference that would generally not get
checked.

> My guess is that you did not even do that before you chose to rag on
> the very textbook that most medical people are taught from in North
> America.

Why would I do that? You identified the reference as non-existant.

Texts with crappy parts sometimes become "Standards" and go on for a
long time.

> I am sure that the professors that use this textbook will probably
> disagree with your glib comments about this textbook.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> If you have a better textbook that you want to quote and reference, go
> for it. Most textbooks use real references to support their teachings.

It isn't my interest to produce better textbooks for you or anybody else.

We agree that textbooks that repeat urban myths as fact are undesirable.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

A textbook author created, from whole cloth, the false urban myth about
George Washington chopping down the cherry tree.

 He did it because it added interest and some morality to the history
text. It has been endlessly repeated in textbooks that follow, teachings
that follow, and in the popular press articles that follow.

The same principle works here.

"Good sounding things sometimes never get checked for accuracy"

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

TC - 21 Feb 2006 04:25 GMT
You yap a lot, but you don't add much to the discussion except for
useless ad hominem.

TC

> >>"Probably don't count" is not the same as "Actually don't count"
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
> book
> 4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)
jbuch - 21 Feb 2006 13:14 GMT
> You yap a lot, but you don't add much to the discussion except for
> useless ad hominem.

Your yapping volume is obvious.

See below and your prior posts.

> TC
>
[quoted text clipped - 112 lines]
>>book
>>4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

jt - 20 Feb 2006 19:53 GMT
>1) There is no fundamental science to support it.

Questions:

1.  Do you honestly believe all overweight people in the world have
the same dietary patterns?  High Carb etc?

2.  If the answer to number 1 is no then would it not mean that it
relates to the quantity of food being eaten?

3.  Do you accept the fact that if someone starves to death they have
expended more energy than consumed?

4.  Has it ever occurred to you that the body's natural inclination is
to store extra energy for times of famine?

5.  Do you really believe that or ancestors tens of thousands of years
ago ate 3 meals a day every 6 hours?

6.  Do you really believe or ancestors would have survived if when a
big meal was had that only enough energy was stored to get to the next
meal 6 hours later?

7.  Does it not make sense that the body is going to store energy
because it does not know when more will become available?

8.  In relation to number 7 does it not make sense that the degree to
which it occurs varies among individuals?

9.  Does 6 & 7 not explain why extreme dieters always fail because
they slow down their metabolism because it is the body's natural
defense against famine?

10.  Do you really believe the body's natural tendency to store excess
energy can be shut down completely just because someone is completely
sedentary and consuming 5000 calories and 6 meals a day?

11.  Are you saying in times of famine people should eat high carb
diets because they will put on more weight?

Just wondering since you are so intelligent....
Roger Zoul - 20 Feb 2006 20:43 GMT
::: 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
::
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
:: 11.  Are you saying in times of famine people should eat high carb
:: diets because they will put on more weight?

Yes, he's probably saying that! :)

:: Just wondering since you are so intelligent....
Noway2 - 20 Feb 2006 21:59 GMT
I have never seen a topic stir up so much hostility as this one.  To
what extent do calories matter in weight loss and does the type of
calorie matter.  I also don't understand why the "whole grain" and "A
calorie is a calorie" bible thumpers are so damned emphatic about
attempting to convince everyone else by cramming that sh.t down
everyones throat!

For many of us here, LC works and it works well and all the thumping
and preaching in the world isn't going to convice any of us otherwise.
Yet they continue to attempt to site half witted half assed examples
time after time and when you aren't conviced they result to name
calling (like Mr Natural Foods does or whatever the hell his name is).

For all their talk about biochemistry or even regular chemistry for
that matter, they sure seem to understand none of it.  Doesn't even
make a modest amount of sense that different "chemical compounds" will
have different reactions and that in order to relase the POTENTIAL
engergy, which is what the calorie is, potential, that there will be
different pathways that this can be accomplished.  According to much of
their diatribe I hear, it would seem that a piece of wood has
"calories".  As a matter of fact according to the 1950's definition for
calculating calories and the strict scientific defintionit, it does but
I was always taught that it isn't digestible by humans because they
don't posses a necessary pathway to extract the "calories" from it.

All of these simpleton's preaching doesn't even begin to take into
account the effect that these different chemical compounds have on the
function of brain and body chemistry.  Maybe that is because they don't
have a god damned clue!

Thank You folks, go ahead and consume your 1/4 cup of white rice - I'm
going to go have a nice steak.
TC - 20 Feb 2006 22:24 GMT
> >1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>
> Questions:
>
> 1.  Do you honestly believe all overweight people in the world have
> the same dietary patterns?  High Carb etc?

Probably. We are all homo sapiens and we all have the same metabolic
system. Check any bio-chem textbook.

> 2.  If the answer to number 1 is no then would it not mean that it
> relates to the quantity of food being eaten?

Not quantity but quality. That is the essence of the argument. The
calorie theory rests all its laurels on sheer quantity and
conveniently, especially for the food industry, completely ignores
quality.

> 3.  Do you accept the fact that if someone starves to death they have
> expended more energy than consumed?

Hardly applicable to the discussion. We aren'y discussing extremes, we
are discussing the effects of calories, or lack thereof, on people
eating apparently adequate amounts of food give or take a several
percent in macro-nutrient ratios.

> 4.  Has it ever occurred to you that the body's natural inclination is
> to store extra energy for times of famine?

Nope, the body does not store for general times of famine. eneral
famines cannot be predicted and nature cannot possibly build into us
protection from widespread general famine.

But seasonal shortages, that is another question.

Yep, in the summer, when they have access to more carbs, they fatten up
for the long winters when they lose weight due to having little or no
access to any large amounts of carbs. Interesting how that works eh?
Lots of carbs - we fatten up, no carbs - we lose fat.

Now, would you be recommending that we eat lots of carbs year round?
huh? You know, just in case of a widespread general famine? I didn't
think so. So maybe the food industry and the grain industry is just
fattening us up in preparation for famine. Geez, and I thought they
were just greedy bastards who wanted to make billions at the expense of
our civilisations health. Boy, was I wrong, eh?

> 5.  Do you really believe that or ancestors tens of thousands of years
> ago ate 3 meals a day every 6 hours?

If they could get it they would and who's to say that they couldn't in
most times. What relevance this question has, I don't know.

> 6.  Do you really believe or ancestors would have survived if when a
> big meal was had that only enough energy was stored to get to the next
> meal 6 hours later?

You know, people back in those days would have had, for the most part,
access to a regular source of food. Just like we did a couple of
hundred years ago, or a couple of thousand years ago. Or a couple of
hundred thousand years ago. That is how we evolved. That is how we
survived. That is what made us what we are today. The reality is that
we need food every few (5 to 6) hours. Go figure.

So what?

> 7.  Does it not make sense that the body is going to store energy
> because it does not know when more will become available?

Seasonally, yes. Summer = carbs = fats. Winter = less carbs = less fat.

> 8.  In relation to number 7 does it not make sense that the degree to
> which it occurs varies among individuals?

Sure, but to what degree? I can see that there would be a difference
between Inuits and Hawianns  because one survives in the arctic and the
other survived in the south pacific in totlly different environments
with totally different approaches to survival, but when we first laid
eyes on them they were both perfectly healthy populations.

But should there be any difference between you and your sibling. Nope.
It isn't the differences in the people as much as the differences in
the diets.

> 9.  Does 6 & 7 not explain why extreme dieters always fail because
> they slow down their metabolism because it is the body's natural
> defense against famine?

Nope. It proves my point.

Extreme dieters fail because they fail to use a methodology that takes
advantage of how the body really operates. Restricting fats and
increasing carbs is what people and animals do regularly on a seasonal
basis to gain weight. To do that to try to lose weight is silly. But
you've accepted it as "scientific" fact. How silly is that?

> 10.  Do you really believe the body's natural tendency to store excess
> energy can be shut down completely just because someone is completely
> sedentary and consuming 5000 calories and 6 meals a day?

The body does not have a natural tendency to store excess energy. It
has historically done it seasonally in response to available carbs.
What it does have is a natural tendency to store excess carbs as fat.
Check your bio-chemistry textbook. That is scientific fact and is
expleined in detail in any bio-chem textbook.

A sedentary person can eat surprisingly large amounts of meats and fats
(as in *BBQ*) and still not gain a great deal if at all. But add to it
copious amounts of sweet soft drinks, potato chips, refined wheat buns,
etc and he will gain weight. You can do an experiment yourself. Next
time you have a BBQ avoid all meats and eat only carbs, any carbs,
whole food or refined, whatever you would normally eat except no meat.
Do that for a weekend. Weigh yourself before and after the weekend and
measure your girth, arms, waist etc. The next weekend eat nothing but
meat, avoid the bread, the soda, chips etc.Eat only beef patties,
wieners, ribs, chicken, etc. Measure yourself before and after. The
meat weekend you will gain very little if anything. The carb weekend
you will gain at least five lbs. I've done it myself.

> 11.  Are you saying in times of famine people should eat high carb
> diets because they will put on more weight?

Nope. they should eat anything that gives them nutrition. And how,
again, is an extreme example like this proof of something in the normal
range?

> Just wondering since you are so intelligent....

I hope I've answered your questions. Now you are intelligent too.

TC
Max C. - 20 Feb 2006 22:37 GMT
TC, I hope you know there are a few of us out here that love reading
your posts.  I like your common sense approach to nutrition.  It's
refreshing.  As I have discovered over the years, all you really need
is a little history lesson and the science of nutrition becomes
unnecessary.

I thought this post that was written on a message board I frequent
would be applicable to your topic.  It was written in response to
someone asking how one could *increase* caloric intake and expect to
lose weight.  Here it is.

"It's pretty simple. When you eat very low calories, your metabolism
is very low. Thyroid hormone is lowered. Testosterone levels in men are
lowered. Muscle mass is reduced to make up for protein and to help
reduce metabolic rate. You can't maintain muscle mass on very low
calories since muscle is very metabolically demanding.

You start eating more, what happens? Your metabolism increases, thyroid
hormone increases, testosterone levels increase, you can now gain
muscle, leptin levels increase. It's not a simple thermodynamics theory
on caloric balance. Hormones play a huge role.

Muscle mass is very important here. The more muscle you carry, the
easier it is to lose weight. Now when you've been starving and you have
little muscle tissue, your metabolism is naturally much lower. Start
eating and adding muscle mass and your resting metabolic rate starts
climbing at 50 calories for every pound of muscle added. Someone
gaining 10 pounds of muscle is burning 500 extra calories PER day. This
should be a pound of fat loss per week by not doing anything. Good luck
adding muscle eating 1000 calories. You need more food to do that.

Also, on low calories having the testosterone levels of a pre-pubescent
girl isn't going to help you lose fat. High testosterone levels which
need ample calories and fat to exist is great for losing fat AND
building muscle. So when you start eating more, your testosterone
levels get jacked up and that supports fat loss and muscle gain, which
also supports fat loss."
jt - 20 Feb 2006 23:16 GMT
>TC, I hope you know there are a few of us out here that love reading
>your posts.  I like your common sense approach to nutrition.  It's
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>levels get jacked up and that supports fat loss and muscle gain, which
>also supports fat loss."

Ya know just eating excess calories is not going to add muscle mass to
a couch potato it is only going to add fat.  I am an ectomorph and
could lift weights all day long and not gain much more than a little
lean muscle mass. Fat on the other hand is another story.
jt - 20 Feb 2006 23:21 GMT
>TC, I hope you know there are a few of us out here that love reading
>your posts.  I like your common sense approach to nutrition.  It's
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>levels get jacked up and that supports fat loss and muscle gain, which
>also supports fat loss."

Eating a healthy diet of 2000-3000 calories a day and being physically
active is more than enough to prevent one from becoming overwieght.
This strawman argument about low calories is not going to work.
TC - 21 Feb 2006 04:24 GMT
> TC, I hope you know there are a few of us out here that love reading
> your posts.  I like your common sense approach to nutrition.  It's
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> levels get jacked up and that supports fat loss and muscle gain, which
> also supports fat loss."

That is a good post. And I agree. The more muscle mass the more you
will be able to eat without gaining fat or conversely, lose weight. One
should exercise to remain limber and mobile and build up a good solid
toned muscle mass.

As an extension to this topic, I have to disagree with the concept that
so many minutes of such and such an activity will "burn" exactly this
many calories which translates directly to this many grams or ounces or
pounds of fat. Nonsense. Too many variables including muscle mass.

TC
Jeff - 21 Feb 2006 11:48 GMT
> 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.

Yeah, there is. The fundamental science includes the laws of thermodynamics.

(...)

> 2) Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
> in humans fails 95% of the time.

And succeeds 5% of the time.

(...)

> 3) There exists no specific bio-chemical mechanism that monitors or is
> triggered by calories to affect weight gain or fat storage and weight
> loss or fat loss.

Actually, there are. Various hormones are involved, include leptin. In
addition, the liver and other organs are involved in fat metabolism.

Get yourself a good physiology book.

Jeff

(...)
David Frank - 21 Feb 2006 12:17 GMT
> Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
>in humans fails 95% of the time.

Those who survived World War II as a  POW or concentration camp inmate
would argue it succeeds 100% of the time...
TC - 21 Feb 2006 15:15 GMT
> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
>  >in humans fails 95% of the time.
>
> Those who survived World War II as a  POW or concentration camp inmate
> would argue it succeeds 100% of the time...

Buzzzzz. Wrong answer.

The use of extreme scenarios only prove that you fail to grasp simple
concepts of scientific reasoning.

Examples of extreme starvation only proves is that extreme starvation
makes you thin. It proves nothing about appplying normal ranges of
caloric restriction to lose or gain weight in normal circumstances.

Idiot.

TC
Roger Zoul - 21 Feb 2006 16:14 GMT
:: David Frank wrote:
:::: Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
:: makes you thin. It proves nothing about appplying normal ranges of
:: caloric restriction to lose or gain weight in normal circumstances.

If calories don't count, please explain to me how one can lose 100 lbs
eating a carb-heavy diet with lean meats while doing exercise.
Jeff - 22 Feb 2006 01:08 GMT
>> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
>>  >in humans fails 95% of the time.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The use of extreme scenarios only prove that you fail to grasp simple
> concepts of scientific reasoning.

Actually, extreme scenarios can illustrate the point, as in this case.

> Examples of extreme starvation only proves is that extreme starvation
> makes you thin. It proves nothing about appplying normal ranges of
> caloric restriction to lose or gain weight in normal circumstances.

Extreme starvation also shows that calorie restriction (often with lots of
manual labor added on) works.

> Idiot.
>
> TC

Mr. Frank is not an idiot. He is right on.

Jeff
Doug Freyburger - 22 Feb 2006 01:54 GMT
> >> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
> >>  >in humans fails 95% of the time.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Actually, extreme scenarios can illustrate the point, as in this case.

Sure, when the point is who's being honest and who isn't.

When given no choice whatsoever, 100% of folks fed a 700
calorie diet lose weight.  When given free choice, 5% of folks
who attempt to lose weight keep it off.  The value of the
example?  To show who's distracting from the subject.

The real subject was supposed to be about why eating
excess calories shouldn't be a problem.  The reasoning
behind that stance is a bit extreme, but it's more
interesting the reaction it draws than what happens
when it's actually attempted.

Since the subject is excess calories, drawing examples
of lowered calories demonstrates poor understanding of
the topic.  Move into *forced* caloric restriction and it
shows either utter lack of comprehension or dishonesty.

Independent of whether you agree with the original
thesis (I don't but I understnad the pieces it is assembled
from), those examples are off-point.
jt - 22 Feb 2006 02:25 GMT
>> >> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
>> >>  >in humans fails 95% of the time.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>thesis (I don't but I understnad the pieces it is assembled
>from), those examples are off-point.

It shows that a 2200-2500 calorie diet and moderate exercise  which is
perfectly resonable and sustainable is better than a 3500 calorie a
day couch potato.
TC - 22 Feb 2006 02:53 GMT
> > >> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
> > >>  >in humans fails 95% of the time.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> thesis (I don't but I understnad the pieces it is assembled
> from), those examples are off-point.

The subject is not excess calories alone.

It is whether or not a mathematically calculated caloric deficit can be
used in the real world to accurately predict a specific amount of fat
loss and, conversely, whether a mathematically calculated caloric
excess can accurately predict a specific amount of fat gain....... in
all damned circumstances regardless of any other factors.

And there is no science that supports it thru actual real life data.

TC
Roger Zoul - 22 Feb 2006 15:44 GMT
>> > >> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight
>> > >> > loss
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> excess can accurately predict a specific amount of fat gain....... in
> all damned circumstances regardless of any other factors.

That wasn't at all the subject.

It doesn't matter *if* you can accurately (as in mathematically) determine
caloric deficit or not when talking about the *real world* (in the lab might
be another story).  What matters in the *real world* is whether or not you
can create a deficit and maintain it long enough to produce weight loss.
This is why, even though inaccurate to a large measure, people can count
calories and activity and produce weight loss.  It's just a matter of
balancing one against another long enough until results are obtained

> And there is no science that supports it thru actual real life data.

So?  Even if that's true doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 03:03 GMT
>It doesn't matter *if* you can accurately (as in mathematically) determine
>caloric deficit or not when talking about the *real world* (in the lab might
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>calories and activity and produce weight loss.  It's just a matter of
>balancing one against another long enough until results are obtained

Again, thyroid hormones will decrease BMR appropriately in order to
conserve fuels available in body :-(
So, eating much less just decrease BMR more or less in the same amount
unless you get below a certain treshold value (but still, specific for
each person, dependent on many factors) then you will slim anyway.

On the other side, increasing glucagon release, eg. as a result of
severe infection or sepsis, might increase protein demand to such an
extent that body may burn off 14 kg or more of muscles and fat
deposits in a week. But, I would not suggest anyone to repeat such
experiments. Risk of death is extremely high. (I have told it before
here that I got a very serious infection in sinus and throat by
streptococcus A (meat eater variant) combined with a severe candida
infection, and upon all, did stuck a piece of white skin of grapefruit
in oesophagus in such a way that vomit passed freely upwards, but no
water or food could pass at all downwards, and stayed helpless, alone,
in bed for almost 5 days, vomiting almost constantly and btw.
vomiting, had severe episodes of hickups almost constantly the whole
period. On saturday I managed to call for help and stayed about 3 week
in hospital, being weighted first after 4 days with constant
intravenous fluids, combined with lots of intravenously antibiotics,
and KCl solutions (that was terrible) and after 5 days I found myself
had lost 14 kg weight. Eating a lot the next 6 months, I slowly
increased weight back to normal levels before the accidents.

Repeating, I do not suggest any trying such a slimming. But, I had
very good use of my knowledge about nutrition, especially about the
almost doubled need for protein when immune system work at extreme
high speed (CRP values around 700, normally 0-10, telling about very
severe sepsis going on :-() And all because I had 5 infections in
teeth root canals that had been filled by a doctor, but not earning
enough money for repairing them (as university worker), the channels
was enough open to admit infection by Streptococcus which later spread
to my sinuses :-(
Joe the Aroma - 22 Feb 2006 16:53 GMT
>> > >> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight
>> > >> > loss
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> The subject is not excess calories alone.

Indeed. Clearly there's more to the science of weight management than
calories alone. But that's quite different from saying "calories don't
count". Eat enough calories and you will get fat and don't eat enough and
you will lose weight. You can play around with metabolism and "gastric
emptying" but the laws of thermodynamics will still apply.
TC - 22 Feb 2006 17:24 GMT
> >> > >> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight
> >> > >> > loss
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> you will lose weight. You can play around with metabolism and "gastric
> emptying" but the laws of thermodynamics will still apply.

What I am saying is that for all *practical* purposes calories don't
count. That may be a clearer statement for you.

It doesn't matter how you do the math or how hard you try to apply it
in the real world, counting calories, especially by restricting fats,
will fail in virtually every case.

It is impractical to try to mathematically apply the laws of thermo
directly to try to manage fat storage or fat loss. The math and the
numbers given to us in terms of food caloric values cannot be easily
applied directly to manage weight in humans.

***** The laws of thermo are valid. ******

They simply cannot be applied to predict fat storage or fat loss any
more than they can be used to predict the full-grown physical size of a
child.

There are way too many intermediary complexities in the human metabolic
system. It is not a linear system that starts with calories and ends in
fat. There exists no known biological metabolic system that goes
directly from a) calories to b) fat storage.

Applying the laws of thermo to fat storage or fat loss is a
mis-application and way too much of a reach. There is too many complex
processes between the simple laws of thermo and the end result in the
physiology of fat storage.

***** The laws of thermo apply to animals                     ******
***** in that no energy is created or lost in the process. *******

But the body adapts itself in response to inputs and external factors
in extremely complicated ways that puts the kibosh on any overly
simplistic concepts like calories leading directly to fat storage or
loss.

Mathematically calculated theoretically excess calories do not
AUTOMATICALLY get converted to fat. Nor do a mathematically calculated
theoretically calorie deficit automatically cause fat loss.

There is no biological mechanism that works in this specific manner. No
series of hormonal cascades that get triggered speifically by caloric
excess or deficits.

Restrict calories and the body adapts to use less calories. Increase
calories and the body can shed energy thru feces or body heat, etc. Do
this while ignoring hormones, macro-nutrients and other, more
significant qualities of foods and you have a system that does not
react in the way you predicted.

We are not a simple bomb calorimeter. we are living, breathing,
infinitely adaptable organisms that function and reacts to inputs in
extremely complicated ways.

The calorie theory regarding fat storage or loss is just too
unsophisticated a concept to be of any practical use in the real world.

Thus for all practical purposes, in the real world of dieting and
weight management, calories don't count.

TC
Susan - 22 Feb 2006 17:29 GMT
> Thus for all practical purposes, in the real world of dieting and
> weight management, calories don't count.
>
> TC

I live in the real world of diabetes and weight control by diet.

Calories count; they always count.  Some count more than others, some
matter differently to different people, but they always matter.

Low carb is one way to reduce calories and to consume more optimal
macronutrients for the calorie buck.  It didn't reduce my hunger at all
until I went on an insulin sensitizer, so calories mattered a great deal
no matter how low carb I ate.

Susan
TC - 22 Feb 2006 17:47 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Susan

So your abnormal situation, ie. diabetes, places you outside the third
standard deviation and on the fringes of the bell curve and you are
part of the less than 5% where it makes a difference.

But for the 95% plus that this statement applies to ......

.....for all practical purposes, in the real world of dieting and
weight management, calories don't count.

I stand by my statement.

TC
Susan - 22 Feb 2006 17:52 GMT
> So your abnormal situation, ie. diabetes, places you outside the third
> standard deviation and on the fringes of the bell curve and you are
> part of the less than 5% where it makes a difference.

Insulin resistance is not abnormal; insulin sensitivity drops off at
around age 30, precipitously so at 40.  Diabetes has become more the
norm than not.

> But for the 95% plus that this statement applies to ......

95%??  Good citations, please.

> .....for all practical purposes, in the real world of dieting and
> weight management, calories don't count.

Nonsense.  They always matter, especially to those with only about 10 or
20 lbs. to lose.  Low carbers have to cut calories to get rid of the
last ten as much as anyone else does, my years on asdlc have shown.

Susan
TC - 22 Feb 2006 17:55 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> 95%??  Good citations, please.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/309/6955/655

Controversies in Management: Dietary treatments for obesity are
ineffective
C S Wooley, D M Garner

University of Cincinnati, College of Medicine, Cincinnati, Ohio 45267,
USA Beck Institute for Cognitive Therapy and Research, Bala Cynwood,
Pennsylvania 19001, USA Correspondence to: Dr Wooley.

It is surprising that debate continues about the effectiveness of
dietary treatments for obesity. Perhaps this is partly related to
ambiguity in the term effectiveness. It is well known that most
treatments produce temporary weight loss. But it is equally well known
that 90% to 95% of those who lose weight regain it within several
years.1 This poor outcome has led to charges that traditional
treatments for obesity should be abandoned and countercharges that it
is irresponsible to withhold treatment for such a serious problem. The
failure of reducing diets to produce lasting improvement was recently
reiterated at a National Institutes of Health consensus conference,
which also warned about the adverse effects of treatment.2

The failure of fat people to achieve a goal they seem to want - and to
want almost above all else - must now be admitted for what it is: a
failure not of those people but of the methods of treatment that are
used. It is no longer a mystery why diets have such a poor long term
record of success. Indeed the failure of obese people to become or
remain thin by "normalising" their food intake follows logically from
studies on the heritability of obesity,3 the biology of weight
regulation,4 and the physiology of energy metabolism.5

Demand for treatment is not a justification

Yet many remain enthusiastic about treatment. It could be said that the
main evidence for the value of dieting is that health professionals
continue to prescribe it. Inertia feeds on itself, failure to change
coming to serve as a silent argument that no change is needed. However,
this only partially accounts for the resistance to change among those
treating obesity. Recent findings regarding the benefits of antibiotics
in treating ulcers and the comparative outcomes of procedures for
emergency cardiac care have been rapidly translated into medical
practice. In these cases doctors have only had to adjust what they do;
in the case of obesity treatment, however, there is no replacement
procedure. The question is whether to abandon treatment, putting many
specialists out of business, in the face of relentless popular demand.
Desperate consumers are willing to bear the burden of responsibility
for failure in exchange for continuing access to treatment. This
desperation is best illustrated by Ravitch and Brolin's observation
that patients who had had obesity surgery were unwilling to consider
reversal even when it was discussed in terms of saving their lives.6

As if to avert the central question by introducing more variables, the
debate has shifted from the universal mandate for one treatment, to the
matching of available treatments (from self directed programmes to
surgery) to individual, depending on level of obesity and factors such
as diet history.7 Notably, even for patients as little as 5% overweight
the option of withholding weight loss treatment does not appear on the
decision tree. Wadden has argued that the "no treatment" option "cannot
be universally endorsed until there are definitive research data."8
This is an unusual twist in medical science: demanding proof of
effectiveness of no treatment rather than of active intervention.
Although the no treatment stance has been viewed as radical, it is
actually quite conservative. The drug industry has to show both safety
and efficacy before commercial approval of its products, and, in
general, the burden of proof lies with those advocating treatment.

Health effects of dieting

Proponents of dietary treatment point to the health risks of obesity.
Amassing evidence that weight loss would be beneficial does not make
treatment any more effective. Therapies with modest success rates are
defensibly used when the prognosis for an untreated person is poor and
treatment poses no additional risks. But in the case of dietary
treatments for obesity neither of these assumptions is clearly met.
Success rates are not even modest, and the health risks associated with
untreated obesity remain controversial, largely because in societies in
which dieting is common the effects of high weight are confounded with
the effects of weight cycling.1,9 Dieting not only fails the criterion
of being without risk but has been implicated in increased morbidity
and mortality in several large studies.1,9,10 Dieting often has
negative effects on psychosocial functioning and can lead to eating
disorders such as the binge eating disorder and even bulimia nervosa.11
Finally, dietary treatments are costly, unpleasant, and, when they
fail, tend to damage self esteem.

Treat the patient not obesity

Of course obese patients should be treated for illnesses and injuries
like everyone else. They should be counselled to eat a healthy balanced
diet and to get appropriate amounts of exercise. They should be treated
for the emotional disorders they have and not, as is so often the case,
ones they do not have. They should be treated for eating disorders such
as binge eating, if they have them. Some must be helped to stop chronic
overeating caused by despair over repeated failure. Some will need help
in establishing "normal" eating patterns after decades of diets and
diet rebound. They should be helped to deal with the social and
emotional implications of remaining fat and to improve their body
image. One of the highest priorities should be to protect them from
blame for their condition and the enormous costs resulting from fat
prejudice.

Gotmaker et al recently put the costs of prejudice in terms that
everyone can understand: $6710 (pounds sterling 4470) a year in lost
earnings, as well as fewer years of education and a reduced chance of
marriage for American women in the top 5% of weight for height.12 Many
previous studies have documented discrimination in admission to
colleges, employment, promotion, access to housing, and attribution of
personality traits.11,13 In a commentary Stunkard and Sorensen
criticised the medical profession for being "among the chief offenders"
in the perpetuation of prejudice and issued a "call to action against
the stigmatisation of obesity."14

But how? Prejudice is revived daily in the routine interactions of
doctor and patient in which patients are offered dietary treatments and
fail to benefit from them. This ongoing failure demands a culprit:
either the treatment is flawed or the patient is flawed, failing to
comply with the appropriate remedy. As the more credible medical
profession is refusing to blame its prescriptions patients are left to
absorb the stigma of failure.

We should stop offering ineffective treatments aimed at weight loss.
Researchers who think they have invented a better mousetrap should test
it in controlled research before setting out their bait for the entire
population. Only by admitting that our treatments do not work - and
showing that we mean it by refraining from offering them - can we begin
to undo a century of recruiting fat people for failure.

> > .....for all practical purposes, in the real world of dieting and
> > weight management, calories don't count.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 22 Feb 2006 18:01 GMT
>>Insulin resistance is not abnormal; insulin sensitivity drops off at
>>around age 30, precipitously so at 40.  Diabetes has become more the
>>norm than not.

You didn't address the above.  Some scientists believe all obese people
are IR.

>>>But for the 95% plus that this statement applies to ......
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> reiterated at a National Institutes of Health consensus conference,
> which also warned about the adverse effects of treatment.2

This is true of all weight loss plans, not just high carb.  Weight loss
maintenance is hard work, and obese people will never be just like other
thin people.  Recidivism and failure rates are no lower in low carbers.

You don't seem to realize that the article argues against the position
you've taken in recent weeks about failure rates.  ALL weight loss is
hard won and hard to maintain.

Has nothing to do with the fact that every diet requires caloric
reduction to succeed; low carb makes that easier to do, and may have a
calorie advantage for some folks, like me.  I maintain on 50% more
calories with low carb, but I still have to pay attention to limiting them.

Susan
Enrico C - 26 Feb 2006 20:01 GMT
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:01:47 -0500, Susan wrote in
<news:463n89F991umU1@individual.net> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

>> http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/309/6955/655
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> you've taken in recent weeks about failure rates.  ALL weight loss is
> hard won and hard to maintain.
[...]

Besides, I believe that the faster the loss, the harder it is to
mantain.
If that is true, a fast weight loss is not what overweight people
should look for.

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
Alf Christophersen - 27 Feb 2006 18:56 GMT
>Besides, I believe that the faster the loss, the harder it is to
>mantain.
>If that is true, a fast weight loss is not what overweight people
>should look for.

Only if it is water you did loose (that's what people are loosing)

I really did slim, and used 8 month slowly increasing weight after my
superslimming episode falling in 5 days from 94kg to 74kg (after water
refill intravenously)
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 02:49 GMT
>It is whether or not a mathematically calculated caloric deficit can be
>used in the real world to accurately predict a specific amount of fat
>loss and, conversely, whether a mathematically calculated caloric
>excess can accurately predict a specific amount of fat gain....... in
>all damned circumstances regardless of any other factors.

No, it can't. Thyroid hormones will do you a severe trick. When
starving, thyroid hormones decrease BMR. And thus, your experiment
fails.

But, PAL values are more less affected (the value you have to multiply
BMR with to get the observed daily energy expenditure)
Roger Zoul - 22 Feb 2006 15:38 GMT
>> >> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
>> >>  >in humans fails 95% of the time.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> thesis (I don't but I understnad the pieces it is assembled
> from), those examples are off-point.

Yeah, calories count, but only 5% can effective lose and keep weight off
with calorie restriction.  Mere CR is NOT a proven effective means for the
greatest majority of people to control weight. End of story! :)

Now, when you bring LC into the story, CR effectively becomes more effective
(ie, easier and less painful) for a greater % of the population, IMO.
However, given how unfocused people can be in daily life, it's not hard to
see why even LC isn't going to work for the greatest majority of people -
even if you could somehow reprogram them to try it as a long-term approach.
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 02:44 GMT
>the topic.  Move into *forced* caloric restriction and it
>shows either utter lack of comprehension or dishonesty.

forced caloric restriction is only possible to do in a jail.

Many observations was done by Nazi doctors and researchers during 2.
WW in the camps where people was forced to eat as little as 100 kcal a
day, while being forced to work all day long in stone mines etc.
Unless you are an ignorant, results was quite obvious. Only those able
to steal food from others survived.
TC - 22 Feb 2006 02:46 GMT
> >> > Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
> >>  >in humans fails 95% of the time.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Jeff

You don't seem to grasp it either.

TC
TC - 21 Feb 2006 15:11 GMT
> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>
> Yeah, there is. The fundamental science includes the laws of thermodynamics.

How many times must I hear this stupid argument?

The laws of thermodynamics are not invalid.

The question is whether or not it cannot be *directly applied to
predict weight gain or weight loss in animals*. Do you understand that
little detail?

OK. Now, go read what I wrote. There is no study or papers that found
definitively that the laws of thermo can be directly applied to predict
weight gain or loss in animals. I showed where a major textbook used a
reference to a non-existant piece of scientific work to back up it's
claim that the laws of thermo can be aplied to predict weight in
animals.

And you saying that it applies, does not simply make it so. Here is
what you do: Read a few textbooks, read all the seminal studies
referenced by those textbooks, when you find one that definitively
proves or finds specifically that the laws of thermo can be applied
directly to mathematically predict weight gain or weight loss in
animals, come back and give us the name of the study, the names of the
researchers who made these findings and where it was published.

Until then, your cryptic little pronouncement that the laws of thermo
make it so, is crap.

> (...)
>
> > 2) Practical application of calorie restriction to achieve weight loss
> > in humans fails 95% of the time.
>
> And succeeds 5% of the time.

Do you know anything about statistics. Do you know anything about the
bell curve? Standard deviations? The bell curve is upside down, which
means the results are opposite of the expected result. It fails
statistically and in the real world enough of the time (95%+) for us to
declare that it does not work in any practical way whatsoever. In
scientific studies 95% failure rate is as good as 100% failure rate. It
is statistically the same thing.

> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Jeff

Oh, that is such a complete and definitive description of the complex
multiple processes involved. Thus it must be true. You've just proved
it beyond a doubt. You win.

Except..... I do have a good physiology book, in fact, several. And
several bio-chem books too. And I don't see anything about how calories
trigger anything. I see how carbs impact blood glusose levels and how
that impacts the pancreas to produce insulin and how that hormone
causes the body to covert the excess glucose into lipids and stores it
in fat cells. And I see how the dietary proteins and fats triggers its
own vaious cascades of hormones and its own series of biological events
to metabolize them properly.

But I see *no* mention about how calories are actually involved in any
of these bio-chemical processes. All I see is a passing reference in
one of the first few chapters about how calories are applicable to
weight management in animals with a reference to science that does not
exist.

Please tell us more about exactly how calories triggers weight gain or
loss. Tell us more about leptin. How are calories and leptin connected
exactly? How are the liver and other organs involved in combination
with calories to cause fat storage or fat loss. Tell us, please. What
are the specific metabolic processes between the ingestion of claories
and the storage of fat or the loss of fat. Please explain them in
excruciating scientific detail, or give us the name of a book that does
that, or give us a url to a website that does.

TC
Roger Zoul - 21 Feb 2006 16:12 GMT
:: The laws of thermodynamics are not invalid.

At the very least, you need to qualify this statement, even in this thread.

:: The question is whether or not it cannot be *directly applied to
:: predict weight gain or weight loss in animals*. Do you understand
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
:: definitively that the laws of thermo can be directly applied to
:: predict weight gain or loss in animals.

That doesn't mean that they don't apply.  Are there any papers or studies
that prove they don't?

I showed where a major
:: textbook used a reference to a non-existant piece of scientific work
:: to back up it's claim that the laws of thermo can be aplied to
:: predict weight in animals.

How do you know that the citation wasn't just bad?  Mistakes in citing the
work of others does happen, you know.

:: And you saying that it applies, does not simply make it so. Here is
:: what you do: Read a few textbooks, read all the seminal studies
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
:: animals, come back and give us the name of the study, the names of
:: the researchers who made these findings and where it was published.

The real question is, then, why would they not?  The anwser likely is, they
do, but one has to clearly define in what sense they do.

:: Until then, your cryptic little pronouncement that the laws of thermo
:: make it so, is crap.

Are your comments any better?

::: (...)
:::
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
:: scientific studies 95% failure rate is as good as 100% failure rate.
:: It is statistically the same thing.

But, it doesn't say that calories don't count, just that calorie counting is
not a practical means of weight control for most people.  This cannot be
denied.

::: (...)
:::
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
:: proteins and fats triggers its own vaious cascades of hormones and
:: its own series of biological events to metabolize them properly.

So how does the body determine "excess"?

:: But I see *no* mention about how calories are actually involved in
:: any of these bio-chemical processes. All I see is a passing
:: reference in one of the first few chapters about how calories are
:: applicable to weight management in animals with a reference to
:: science that does not exist.

Are you suggesting that the authors had committed fraud, TC?  If so, why
don't you call them on it.  Which book are you referring to?

:: Please tell us more about exactly how calories triggers weight gain
:: or loss. Tell us more about leptin. How are calories and leptin
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
:: the name of a book that does that, or give us a url to a website
:: that does.

Calories = food energy usable in the body.  The various macronutrients
provide different functions in the body. Protein sources provide building
blocks, fat and carbs provide different types of energy.  However, all of
them provide energy that they body converts from one form (food) to another
(something that is derived from food and used or stored within the body).

"Calorie" is just a description of the bio-energy derivable from food.
Thus, the language used in a textbook need not involve the explicit word
"calorie" in describing metabolic function.  It doesn't make sense to do so.

TC, if you're such the expert on all this, start publishing and change the
world.

In the meantime, if calories don't count, please explain to me how one can
lose 100 lbs eating a carb-heavy diet and lean meats while doing exercise.
Jeff - 22 Feb 2006 01:14 GMT
>> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> The laws of thermodynamics are not invalid.

In what universe are you? The laws  of themodynamics work in this one.

> The question is whether or not it cannot be *directly applied to
> predict weight gain or weight loss in animals*. Do you understand that
> little detail?

Yes, very well.

> OK. Now, go read what I wrote. There is no study or papers that found
> definitively that the laws of thermo can be directly applied to predict
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Until then, your cryptic little pronouncement that the laws of thermo
> make it so, is crap.

There is clearly more to weight loss and gain than the laws of
thermodynamics. But the laws of thermodynamics still apply.

>> (...)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> statistically and in the real world enough of the time (95%+) for us to
> declare that it does not work in any practical way whatsoever.

Tell that to the 5% of the people for whom it does work.

> In
> scientific studies 95% failure rate is as good as 100% failure rate. It
> is statistically the same thing.

Actually, you are incorrect. Something like 95% of all attempts to quit
smoking fail. Yet, the number of exsmokers is going up every day.

Likewise, people who follow a diet that is low in calories will lose weight.

It is not that 95% of the people who follow a low-calorie diet don't lose
weight, but rather, 95% of the people can't stick to the  low-calorie diet.
They are very different things.

(...)

Jeff
Roger Zoul - 22 Feb 2006 15:49 GMT
>>> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> weight, but rather, 95% of the people can't stick to the  low-calorie
> diet. They are very different things.

I've told him this over and over but he refuses to hear.
TC - 22 Feb 2006 16:02 GMT
> >>> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>
> I've told him this over and over but he refuses to hear.

How, exactly, do you explain that only 5 or less % of people can stick
to a low calorie diet, yet a much larger and more significant number
can stick to a low carb diet for much longer and with much more
success?

They somehow are incapable of counting calories but they can more
easily count carbs? Carb math is easier than calorie math?

Or they can enjoy a low-carb diet more than a low-fat diet?

Or the caloric values of foods are more inaccurate than the carb values
are?

Or low-carbers are more honest than low-cal'ers?

Or restricting fats doesn't work, but restricting carbs works better?

Or low carbers tend to hold their heads at just the right angle with
their tongues held at another perfect angle that allowed the stars to
allign just perfectly enough for the gods of fat to rain their magical
dust of fat-loss success on the low carbers more than the low-cal'ers.

There is a real reason why low carbers succeed better than low-fatters,
and it has very little to do with the theoretical math of calories.

TC
Roger Zoul - 22 Feb 2006 18:41 GMT
>> >>> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> can stick to a low carb diet for much longer and with much more
> success?

Cites please.  I think the numbers for LC failure mirror those for LF.

> They somehow are incapable of counting calories but they can more
> easily count carbs? Carb math is easier than calorie math?

Yes, carb math is much easier than calorie math.  You ought to know that,
TC.  If I eat nothing my meat, fish, chicken, brocolli then how easy is to
count carbs?  I know, because I frequently eat this way.  Basically, I'll
eat 9 oz of broccoli a day which ends up being the only source of carbs.
Practically so low you don't need to count.

> Or they can enjoy a low-carb diet more than a low-fat diet?

Easy.

> Or the caloric values of foods are more inaccurate than the carb values
> are?

Both are inaccurate unless you stick to meat & fish, etc.  But on anything
that has carbs, both will be inaccurate.  Do you ever read labels on nuts,
TC.  Carb numbers are all over the map. You probably don't even read label
based on how you eat. I like to count everything, so I spend a good bit of
time reading labels or I limit myself to a certain list of foods that I've
already put into fitday.

> Or low-carbers are more honest than low-cal'ers?
>
> Or restricting fats doesn't work, but restricting carbs works better?

Both can be made to work.  I've done both and I prefer LC.  I'm also T2 and
47, so that's a good thing.

> Or low carbers tend to hold their heads at just the right angle with
> their tongues held at another perfect angle that allowed the stars to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> There is a real reason why low carbers succeed better than low-fatters,
> and it has very little to do with the theoretical math of calories.

I think you're blowing smoke. Where's the data that says LCers succeed
better than low fatters?
Susan - 22 Feb 2006 18:49 GMT
> I think you're blowing smoke. Where's the data that says LCers succeed
> better than low fatters?

It doesn't exist, though I will point out one oversight that never seems
to be mentioned in papers comparing diet plans; low carb and low fat
success starts to dovetail at the one year mark til there's no
difference in results.  This may simply reflect the fact that low
carbers are eating more carbs at that point, the two diets have become
more similar.

Susan
Joe the Aroma - 22 Feb 2006 18:58 GMT
> I think you're blowing smoke. Where's the data that says LCers succeed
> better than low fatters?

You're actually doing yourself a disservice by believing that keeping LC
lost weight off is any easier than LF/LC dieting and believing that calories
don't matter.

How many newbies will spend weeks/months on LC diets not losing any weight
because of what you're (TC) telling them about calories?

Just from this newsgroup how many people have posted here in the past few
months something like this "Back in '03 I lost 40 pounds doing Atkins and
felt great but due to [insert reasons here] I have since gained it all back
and then some"? Believing that keeping the weight off is anything less than
perhaps the most difficult challenge of your life is self-delusional and
will come back to harm you.

Have no delusions and you will be more likely to succeed but if you hold
certain erroneously beliefs true then you harm nobody but yourself.
TC - 22 Feb 2006 19:11 GMT
> > I think you're blowing smoke. Where's the data that says LCers succeed
> > better than low fatters?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> How many newbies will spend weeks/months on LC diets not losing any weight
> because of what you're (TC) telling them about calories?

Then they should read the correct information and do it right. Too many
try to LC by doing what they read in a news article or what their
cousin said they had to do.

Learn what LC really is and apply it and you will lose unwanted fat.

> Just from this newsgroup how many people have posted here in the past few
> months something like this "Back in '03 I lost 40 pounds doing Atkins and
> felt great but due to [insert reasons here] I have since gained it all back
> and then some"? Believing that keeping the weight off is anything less than
> perhaps the most difficult challenge of your life is self-delusional and
> will come back to harm you.

Plenty of people failed to make it a way of eating. That is a
prerequiste for long term success. And if you really understand the
concept, it isn't all that difficult to do.
And I've rarely hear of people putting it back on "and then some".

> Have no delusions and you will be more likely to succeed but if you hold
> certain erroneously beliefs true then you harm nobody but yourself.

The low fat paradigm has gotten us to where we are today. Record levels
of obesity and obesity related disease.

Any other paradigm would have to be better for us and cannot possibly
do as much harm as todays bullshit low fat crap and the garbage carbs
being foisted on us as being supposedly healthy.

Have no frikkin' delusions, people are catching on to the refined carb
nightmare that we live in. Going back to real freash whole foods can
only be good.

TC
Susan - 22 Feb 2006 21:20 GMT
> Learn what LC really is and apply it and you will lose unwanted fat.

I didn't on very low carb.  I wasn't overweight to begin with, and I
gained until I took an insulin sensitizer and restricted calories.

Susan
Joe the Aroma - 22 Feb 2006 21:33 GMT
>> > I think you're blowing smoke. Where's the data that says LCers succeed
>> > better than low fatters?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> try to LC by doing what they read in a news article or what their
> cousin said they had to do.

I agree totally.

> Learn what LC really is and apply it and you will lose unwanted fat.

I cannot agree here. You cannot be assured that someone will lose weight on
a LC diet. You're assuming the "one diet fits all" mentality, which the low
fat folks do as well. This is wrong IMO.

>> Just from this newsgroup how many people have posted here in the past few
>> months something like this "Back in '03 I lost 40 pounds doing Atkins and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> concept, it isn't all that difficult to do.
> And I've rarely hear of people putting it back on "and then some".

Just the other day someone said exactly that.
GaryG - 23 Feb 2006 15:02 GMT
> > > I think you're blowing smoke. Where's the data that says LCers succeed
> > > better than low fatters?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> try to LC by doing what they read in a news article or what their
> cousin said they had to do.

You could say the same thing about any other diet.

> Learn what LC really is and apply it and you will lose unwanted fat.

You could say the same thing about any other diet.

> > Just from this newsgroup how many people have posted here in the past few
> > months something like this "Back in '03 I lost 40 pounds doing Atkins and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> prerequiste for long term success. And if you really understand the
> concept, it isn't all that difficult to do.

You could say the same thing about any other diet.

> And I've rarely hear of people putting it back on "and then some".
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The low fat paradigm has gotten us to where we are today. Record levels
> of obesity and obesity related disease.

And sedentary office jobs, long commutes, and the availability of
super-sized burgers and fries had nothing to do with it, eh?

> Any other paradigm would have to be better for us and cannot possibly
> do as much harm as todays bullshit low fat crap and the garbage carbs
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> TC
Joe the Aroma - 23 Feb 2006 17:09 GMT
> And sedentary office jobs, long commutes, and the availability of
> super-sized burgers and fries had nothing to do with it, eh?

Not as much as you think. I read somewhere that those most likely to get
obese are also those most likely to be employed as manual laborers.
Roger Zoul - 23 Feb 2006 17:32 GMT
::: Joe the Aroma wrote:
::::: I think you're blowing smoke. Where's the data that says LCers
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
:: And sedentary office jobs, long commutes, and the availability of
:: super-sized burgers and fries had nothing to do with it, eh?

In a very real sense, no. See, being sedentary doesn't make you overweight.
A long commute doesn't make you overweight.  The availability of supersized
burgers and fries doesn't make a person overweight.  What does?  Eating too
much food (and too many carbs, btw).  Hence, one can be sedentary, have a
long commute, have supersized burgers and fries readily at hand and still
not be overweight.

So one needs to ask why people eat more calories than they need because if
you're just not doing much, you don't need as much food to not be fat.

Also, it is fundamentally wrong to blame overweight on fast food joints.  I
can go to any supermarket and buy whatever I wish and make myself fat.  The
issue goes much deeper and it is only the spread of misinformation to
promote these simple most obvious reasons for overweight.
GaryG - 24 Feb 2006 02:42 GMT
> ::: Joe the Aroma wrote:
> ::::: I think you're blowing smoke. Where's the data that says LCers
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> issue goes much deeper and it is only the spread of misinformation to
> promote these simple most obvious reasons for overweight.

Agreed...it's the sum of individual choices that leads to obesity.  But, our
modern jobs and conveniences, and the ready availability of calorie dense
foods in massive portions has created an "obesogenic environment".  When we
lived without cars in cities, we would burn more calories each day through
walking. When sodas were only sold in 6oz glass bottles, people didn't
consume a quart per day.  Way back when, a "New York bagel" only had about
150 calories...now it's closer to 400.  Add up all those factors (and many
more), and it's easy to see how we've created the conditions where a daily
caloric surplus is the norm.

GG
TC - 24 Feb 2006 19:00 GMT
> Agreed...it's the sum of individual choices that leads to obesity.  But, our
> modern jobs and conveniences, and the ready availability of calorie dense
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> GG

Don't forget about the sum of corporate and govt choices that lead to
obesity. Adding sugars and hfcs to every food item that they process
and manufacture. And super-sizing meals which add gastly amounts of
carbs to a meal. And pushing all carbs as supposedly healthy because
they are "low in fat".

HFCS consumption has risen dramatically since 1970. Perfectly in lock
step with the obesity and the diabetes and the cvd epidemics.

Now tell us more about how the poor obese victim is responsible and the
food industry isn't.

TC
GaryG - 25 Feb 2006 01:58 GMT
> > Agreed...it's the sum of individual choices that leads to obesity.  But, our
> > modern jobs and conveniences, and the ready availability of calorie dense
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Now tell us more about how the poor obese victim is responsible and the
> food industry isn't.

Nobody is holding a gun to the poor obese "victim's" head forcing them to
order a triple-decker whopper with cheese and a 32 oz soda, instead of a
chicken salad and mineral water.  The obese "victim" is ultimately
responsible for everything that they put into their mouth, as well as for
their choice to sit on the couch watching TV every evening until 11pm.

GG

> TC
TC - 25 Feb 2006 04:08 GMT
> > > Agreed...it's the sum of individual choices that leads to obesity.  But,
> our
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> GG

Not all of them do. Some eat low fat rice cakes, low fat salad dressing
(with added sugar for flavour), low fat muffins, diet soda, etc etc.
But they still can lose weight.

TV
Enrico C - 26 Feb 2006 20:14 GMT
On 24 Feb 2006 20:08:49 -0800, TC wrote in
<news:1140840529.238908.55160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

> Not all of them do. Some eat low fat rice cakes, low fat salad dressing
> (with added sugar for flavour), low fat muffins, diet soda, etc etc.
> But they still can lose weight.

Agreed. Hi-added sugar low-fat food doesn't make you slim.

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
jbuch - 24 Feb 2006 17:10 GMT
> :: And sedentary office jobs, long commutes, and the availability of
> :: super-sized burgers and fries had nothing to do with it, eh?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> issue goes much deeper and it is only the spread of misinformation to
> promote these simple most obvious reasons for overweight.

This reminds me of a wonderful modern marketing book I have.

"Why People Buy Things They Don't Need : Understanding and Predicting
Consumer Behavior"
 (Paperback)
by Pamela Danziger

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0793186021/sr=8-1/qid=1140800231/ref=pd_bbs_1/1
03-3987709-1895857?%5Fencoding=UTF8


"Because they do need! That is the simple answer to a profoundly
challenging question..."

People don't NEED things as in NECESSARY like basic food and clothing
are necessary, but $50 per pound luxury chocolate is not a NEED, but is
a NEEDY thing.

It is a NEEDY thing for people to feel good about themselves to have
$50/lb chocolate because it .... proves something ... or other reasons.

People NEED food to survive.

People are NEEDY about food to cope with their lives.

Much food is not food eaten for survival nutritional needs but for
EMOTIONAL NEEDS. Lonely, frustrated, bored, habit,addicted,.....

EMOTIONAL NEEDY EATING is a significant part of the modern obesity.

There is other stuff important to obesity, of course.

EMOTIONAL NEEDS and   COMFORT FOODS ..... are in the same corner in the
boxing ring for the "weight control championship".

Often, the winner in the "Weight Control Battle" is:
. . . .  "Emotional Needy Eating".

Maybe the secret champion of "Weight Control Battle" is the emotional
environment of the society.

---------------------------

Gotta run, no time, I need a McDonald's as my energy level is low from
all of this thinking and anxiety ........... Wash it down with a 46 Oz
Big Gulp sugared soft drink and I'm set for the afternoon ................

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Roger Zoul - 26 Feb 2006 22:53 GMT
>> :: And sedentary office jobs, long commutes, and the availability of
>> :: super-sized burgers and fries had nothing to do with it, eh?
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> of this thinking and anxiety ........... Wash it down with a 46 Oz Big
> Gulp sugared soft drink and I'm set for the afternoon ................

:)
Enrico C - 26 Feb 2006 20:10 GMT
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:02:23 -0800, GaryG wrote in
<news:%7kLf.25$b93.24@fe04.lga> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

>> The low fat paradigm has gotten us to where we are today. Record levels
>> of obesity and obesity related disease.
>
> And sedentary office jobs, long commutes, and the availability of
> super-sized burgers and fries had nothing to do with it, eh?

I am not a fan of fast-food, but it must be said that you can
super-size virtually any dish, at home or restaurant, not just burgers
and fries.



X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
Luna - 23 Feb 2006 00:27 GMT
> > >>> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
> > >>>
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
> They somehow are incapable of counting calories but they can more
> easily count carbs? Carb math is easier than calorie math?

In some ways.  If I just eat meat, non-starchy vegetables, and dairy, I
know I'll lose weight without having to count anything or do any math at
all.

> Or they can enjoy a low-carb diet more than a low-fat diet?

Yes.  I do anyway.  Fat tastes good.  Carbs taste good only when they
have fat on them.  imo
Joe the Aroma - 22 Feb 2006 16:41 GMT
>>> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> There is clearly more to weight loss and gain than the laws of
> thermodynamics. But the laws of thermodynamics still apply.

I guess I'll have to throw out my perpetual motion machine then. Bummer. :(
jbuch - 21 Feb 2006 15:30 GMT
> 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> http://moro.imss.fi.it/lavoisier/Lavoisier_Chronology2.asp?anno=1785

http://www.answers.com/topic/conservation-of-energy

# ^  Lavoisier, A.L. & Laplace, P.S. (1780) "Memoir on Heat", Académie
Royal des Sciences pp4-355

Also:

http://www.coretexts.org/downloads/Bridging%20the%20Gap%20Syllabus%20Year2.pdf
references student reading of the document on the second page.

and you can buy a copy of the book:

Lavoisier & Laplace,
Memoir on Heat-1783
Translated with an Introduction and Notes by Henry Guerlac
Facsimile and translation
1982, ISBN 0-88135-195-8, $19.95

Of Biological Significance
RESPIRATIOM = A FORM OF COMBUSTION

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Search/historysearch.cgi?SUGGESTION=
Laplace&CONTEXT=1

# Applying quantitative methods to a comparison of living and nonliving
systems, Laplace and the chemist Antoine Lavoisier in 1780, with the aid
of an ice calorimeter that they had invented, showed respiration to be a
form of combustion.
# Although Laplace soon returned to his study of mathematical astronomy,
this work with Lavoisier marked the beginning of a third important area
of research for Laplace, namely his work in physics particularly on the
theory of heat which he worked on towards the end of his career.

Sloppy scholarship on the claim of Lavoisier and Laplace not writing on
thermodynamics in the 1780 time period.

> Any studies by these two together occurred much later than 1785 and
> none specifically established "the law of conservation of energy in its
> application of animals". They never did any such study or paper.

They claimed the link between respiration and chemical combustion.

It is likely that in 1785 they could not experimentally verify the
conservation of energy in application to animals, because of the crude
nature of scientific instruments at the time, and the poor state of
chemistry at that time.

Faulty scholarship?
By White, Handler and Smith "Principles of Biochemistry"
By yourself

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

TC - 21 Feb 2006 16:32 GMT
> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> # ^  Lavoisier, A.L. & Laplace, P.S. (1780) "Memoir on Heat", Académie
> Royal des Sciences pp4-355

Nothing in 1780. except: "(1780): Lavoisier begins his study on
calorimetry with a newly designed apparatus "

http://moro.imss.fi.it/lavoisier/Lavoisier_Chronology2.asp?anno=1780

In 1783:

http://moro.imss.fi.it/lavoisier/Lavoisier_Chronology2.asp?anno=1783

1783-06-18): At the Académie "M. Delaplace a lu un mémoire fait
conjointement avec M. Lavoisier sur une nouvelle méthode de mesurer la
chaleur." P-V, 1783, fol. 144.

translation: "M Delaplace read a memoir written jointly with M.
Lavoiseur on a new method to measure heat"

also in 1783:

(1783-01-02) (1783-03-28): Continues calorimetric studies with Laplace.
Specific heats and heats of a few reactions: quicklime and water,
quicklime and nitric acid, dilution of sulphuric acid, solution of
salts and water, attack of steel by sulphuric acid

(1783-06-24): Experiments on the production of water by detonating
oxygen and hydrogen under a bell jar, carried out in the presence of
Blagden, Laplace, Vadermonde, Fourcroy, Meusnier, Legendre and Le Roy.

(1783-06-25): At the Académie Lavoisier and Laplace announce the
experimental results obtained the previous day. Water formed from
combining some sixty pints of oxygen and hydrogen; producing only very
pure water. They conclude: "l'eau n'est pas une subst

(1783-09): Laplace communicates to Lavoisier the idea that hydrogen
released by the action of acids results from decomposition of water.

Says nothing about applying the laws of thermo to animals.

> Also:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Facsimile and translation
> 1982, ISBN 0-88135-195-8, $19.95

I'll have to get a copy.

> Of Biological Significance
> RESPIRATIOM = A FORM OF COMBUSTION
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of an ice calorimeter that they had invented, showed respiration to be a
> form of combustion.

Did they show respiration to be a form of combustion? And if they did
does that mean that you can mathematically and accurately predict
weight loss and gain in animals? And did they actually suggest that?

Possibly, not likely and I don't think so.

> # Although Laplace soon returned to his study of mathematical astronomy,
> this work with Lavoisier marked the beginning of a third important area
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Sloppy scholarship on the claim of Lavoisier and Laplace not writing on
> thermodynamics in the 1780 time period.

I think that the sloppy scholarship is in attributing way more to
Lavoisier and Laplace than they actually did.

> > Any studies by these two together occurred much later than 1785 and
> > none specifically established "the law of conservation of energy in its
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> nature of scientific instruments at the time, and the poor state of
> chemistry at that time.

I most definitively agree. They were just figuring out accurate and
consistent ways to measure heat. How the hell they would be referenced
in terms of *proving* the applicability of the laws of thermo to weight
control in animals is beyond me.

> Faulty scholarship?
> By White, Handler and Smith "Principles of Biochemistry"
> By yourself

My "scholarship" is what found this *little* discrepancy. Maybe I
should've written the textbook, or at least proofed it.

Nice to see someone at least try to address the real issue. Thanks for
the breath of fresh air in this discussion.

TC
jbuch - 21 Feb 2006 16:48 GMT
>>Also:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I'll have to get a copy.

http://www.shpusa.com/books/heat.html

Evidently, you can order it by fax.

Information on this page.
http://www.shpusa.com/order2.html

Fax Order Form

Books may be ordered from your local bookseller, library supplier,
internet resource, or direct from the publisher. Prepayment from
individuals is required. MasterCard-Visa-Eurocard are accepted as are
checks payable in US Dollars and drawn on an American bank.

For convenience and security it is suggested that you download and
printout the following PDF Order Form and fax it along with credit card
information to customer service (USA + 508 888-3733). If you experience
trouble downloading our order form, please advise us by e-mail to
customer service (see contact page) and we will fax you the appropriate
form. You may also place your order by phone to (508) 888-9113.

Institutional orders may be faxed to the number given above or mailed to
PO Box 1240, Sagamore Beach, MA 02562-1240, USA. Kindly include P.O.
number and delivery requirements.

>>Of Biological Significance
>>RESPIRATIOM = A FORM OF COMBUSTION
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> TC

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

tunderbar@hotmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 18:46 GMT
Should be able to get it by inter-library loan.

TC

> >>Also:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
> book
> 4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)
jbuch - 21 Feb 2006 23:02 GMT
It was never a best seller, according to the publisher - who is proud of
knowing the group of academics he has delt with over the 30 or so years
of his specialized academic publishing house.

If you prepay with credit card, you will get free shipping. Call (508)
888 3733 for details.

I would suggest that you find a book that will give you the history of
thermodymanics -- including the original development for heat engines
without the need for detailed chemistry considerations... and the
subsequent generalizations to the chemical thermodynamics (including
chemical reactions and reactions in solutions besides solid state
reactions - such as burning in air) and biochemical thermodynamics.

These generalizations occurred over an extended period of time.

At the time of Lavoisier & Laplace, the concept of phlogiston was the
physical embodiment of energy....

Lavoisier refuted the concept of phlogiston, but still condiered heat as
something like a fluid which he called "caloric".

Guess where the word CALORIES comes from.

Later, the "caloric" theory was demolished by experiments by Rutherford
 about 1798. ......

Heat has been visualized differently ever since, and intrepretations
have evolved.

There are definite limits on what Lavoisier and Laplace could have
determined based on the scientific concepts and tools of the time.

It is quite easy to associate Lavoisier with Oxygen, since he first
isolated it, and that he could have been expected to equate the
conversion of Oxygen to CarbonDioxide during respiration as a statement
that biological respiration was chemical oxidation of .... food(?). That
step could have been made by 1783.

The big mistake is in treating humans as automobiles or highly
repeatable machines. We know that there are many medical conditions or
disorders where different peoples cannot digest the same food
ingredients. Lactose intolerance is the most common - caused by some
kind of enzyme lack.

So, people should not be expected to react to food identically, and
stool analysis is one diagnostic test for a number of illnesses and
disorders.

People aren't machines, so don't apply theories to them as if they were.

It is insane to expect that a "dietary calorie is a dietary calorie, and
they all give the same response in different people".

That is modern junk science, hanging onto some old simplified concept.

http://www.jimloy.com/physics/phlogstn.htm
Phlogiston Theory

© Copyright 1996, Jim Loy

In ancient times, there were sometimes considered to be four elements:
earth, air, fire, and water. In the heavens was the fifth element (the
quintessence), the ether. This theory lacked the predictive power to
make alchemy a science. Eventually, early chemists decided that
combustion was the most important chemical reaction, that understanding
combustion would actually revolutionize chemistry. Early on, they had
the impressive insight that the corrosion of metals was a form of
combustion. Another impressive insight was that respiration, in animals,
is also a form of combustion. A common test of the goodness of any given
air (gas) was to measure the time that a mouse would survive, breathing
the air.

One early theory was that sulphur was the ingredient that caused
combustion. After all, sulphur itself burned completely. It was not
unreasonable to assume that any combustible substance contained sulphur.
When wood burned, then sulphur was given off, into the air. But, the
sulphur given off by wood was certainly different from the sulphur given
off by solid sulphur. At least the smell was different.

Becher suggested a hypothetical substance, which he called "inflammable
earth" which every flammable substance contains. Stahl called this
mysterious, unknown substance "phlogiston" (pronounced flow-JISS-tunn).
During combustion, phlogiston is given off into the air:

    wood ---> calx (ash) + phlogiston (to the air)

    iron ---> calx (rust) + phlogiston (to the air)

You and I know that this is not true, that instead various substances
combine with oxygen during combustion. But, please suspend your
righteous contempt for this phlogiston theory, and try to ignore your
inside information, and look at the theory as a somewhat skeptical 18th
century chemist would. I will continue to use some 18th century
terminology, to keep your mind from leaping ahead to 20th century chemistry.

Wood ash is much lighter than the original wood. Iron rust seems much
lighter than the original iron. It makes sense that much of the weight
is given off into the air as phlogiston. The calx (plural "calces") is
now the pure elemental substance, while each metal ends up being a
compound of a basic calx and phlogiston.

Charcoal is almost completely consumed when burned (as is sulphur):

> Should be able to get it by inter-library loan.
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>>Information on this page.
>>http://www.shpusa.com/order2.html

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

jbuch - 21 Feb 2006 16:34 GMT
LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SAB1=Lavoisier++Laplace&BOOL1=all+o
f+these&FLD1=Name%3A+Personal+Name+%28KPNC%29+%28KPNC%29&GRP1=AND+with+next+set&
SAB2=memoir+on+heat&BOOL2=all+of+these&FLD2=Keyword+Anywhere+%28GKEY%29+%28GKEY%
29&PID=20807&SEQ=20060221112712&CNT=25&HIST=1


Memoir on heat / read to the Royal Academy of Sciences, 28 June 1783, by...

LC Control Number:     81011521
Type of Material:     Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
Brief Description:     Lavoisier, Antoine Laurent, 1743-1794.

    Memoir on heat / read to the Royal Academy of Sciences, 28 June 1783,
by Messrs. Lavoisier & De La Place ; translated with an introduction and
notes by Henry Guerlac.

    Mémoire sur la chaleur. English & French
    New York : N. Watson Academic Publications, 1982.
    xviii, 117 p., [2] leaves of plates : ill. ; 23 cm.
ISBN:     0882021958

> 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Except that the study or the paper by Lavoisier and Laplace does not
> exist.

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Mr-Natural-Health - 22 Feb 2006 00:05 GMT
> It is a very simple concept. Burn more calories than you consume.
> Except it fails in the real world.

You mean fail in the real world, just like TC does?

Can you please keep your B/S crap off of smn.  This is a science ng,
after all.

Please move your Arse to where you belong: alt.support.diet.low-carb
home of the abnormals.  There among all the Dim-Wits you will find
words of encouragement befitting all failures in life.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
jbuch - 22 Feb 2006 01:23 GMT
> 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> ************************

Did you read the Wikipedia article on Lavoisier?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Lavoisier

It says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 Lavoisier also made introductory research on physical chemistry and
thermodynamics in joint experiment with Laplace, when he used a
calorimeter to estimate the heat evolved per unit of carbon dioxide
produced, eventually they found the same ratio for a flame and animals,
indicating that animals produced energy by a type of combustion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

This is reasonably close to what you quoted from the textbook.
"Conservation of Energy"....  Wikipedia may not be the best source of
all for exact intrepretation. They say that the ratio of the heat
evolved per unit of CO2 is the same for a flame and animals.  The energy
ratio is conserved? Is that another way to torture this factoid?

On the other hand, the textbook authors may have put a little shading on
the exact impact of the Lavoisier and Laplace work. Stuff like that
happens, as you remarked in another thread on college biology teachers
talking about diet (Atkins) and regurgitating what they heard without
ever checking the source themselves.

And by now, we all know that Lovoisier and Laplace did publish a lengthy
paper in 1783 .... and you can buy it from
http://www.shpusa.com/books/heat.html
or you can try to get it from the Library of Congress or other place.

I was a professional researcher for nearly 40 years. I know how sloppy
most research actually is. Too much of my career was involved in fixing
sloppy and some frankly stupid research.  It is plentiful.

Jim Buch PhD

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

TC - 22 Feb 2006 03:00 GMT
I think that we can say that Lavoisier and Laplace created a new
measuring device, the ice calorimeter. They then were able to do some
simple measurements of a small animal's heat production in the
calorimeter.

Later they examined the air being expelled by animals and found some
similarity with the gases created from typical burning processes and
thus suggested that metabolic process appeared to be similar to
combustion.

I think that that is all that they came up with that was relevant to
the caloric theory that Rudner came up with near the turn of the 20th
century.

Now to examine Rudner. He is a strange individual with some strange
ideas. I think he may be the crux of this whole thing. I'll have to do
some research and come back to this in a bit.

TC

> > 1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> book
> 4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)
Mr-Natural-Health - 22 Feb 2006 11:02 GMT
#1:  TC is a chronic complainer.

#2:  TC's comments are basically dumb.

#3:  TC doesn't stand for anything.  That is why he is a chronic
complainer.

Just thought that TC's Droogies might want to know.
jbuch - 22 Feb 2006 13:32 GMT
I think you are doing an average job of pretending to be a scientific
researcher.

Your research skills are poor.

In a brief time, I found the Lavoisier-Laplace reference that you
claimed "COULDN"T EXIST".

So very very sloppy in technique.

Your knowledge of scientific history is really second rate.

Your original argument mixed an opinion article by behavioral
psychologists in as if this were new information, and then you followed
it by your own "opinion" as if it were of equivalent status. as well as
the claim that this Lavoisier-Laplace article didn't exist.

You are headed to the JC "Kill Filter" status for me.

I am sorry I wasted my time dealing with you.

And, you get to be a nasty SOB in dealing with others at times. So dumb,
and so arrogant.

> I think that we can say that Lavoisier and Laplace created a new
> measuring device, the ice calorimeter. They then were able to do some
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> TC

>>>1) There is no fundamental science to support it.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
>>book
>>4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

TC - 22 Feb 2006 14:44 GMT
> I think you are doing an average job of pretending to be a scientific
> researcher.

I am not a scientific researcher, I'm just a poor schlub trying to make
sense of crap that doesn't seem to make sense. Just like the rest of us
laypeople.

> Your research skills are poor.

They're better than many and as good as most. I never claimed to have
accesss to all research resources, though. Which is why I bring up
these things for discussion in this supposedle learned group. And it
worked. We brought some enlightenment to a subject that was unclear.

> In a brief time, I found the Lavoisier-Laplace reference that you
> claimed "COULDN"T EXIST".

The reference as presented in the textbook did not exist. It was in a
different year entirely. And the actual topic covered by L & L were not
clear at all.

> So very very sloppy in technique.
>
> Your knowledge of scientific history is really second rate.

I never claimed to be an expert in scientific history. I'm just a
student of the world.

> Your original argument mixed an opinion article by behavioral
> psychologists in as if this were new information, and then you followed
> it by your own "opinion" as if it were of equivalent status. as well as
> the claim that this Lavoisier-Laplace article didn't exist.

The original argument was an erroneous and apparently fraudulent
reference in a university bio-chem textbook. And it was at least
partially wrong.

> You are headed to the JC "Kill Filter" status for me.

Knock yourself out.

> I am sorry I wasted my time dealing with you.

I'm not done, we still have to examine Rubner. That is going to be
interesting. I can tell by just glancing at some of his "theories". He
sounds like a bit of an over-reacher in the theories that he proposes.
Which, I think, will enlighten us even more on this topic.

> And, you get to be a nasty SOB in dealing with others at times. So dumb,
> and so arrogant.

If you can't stand the heat.......and sticks and stones.......

TC
Mr-Natural-Health - 22 Feb 2006 21:58 GMT
> > I think you are doing an average job of pretending to be a scientific
> > researcher.
>
> I am not a scientific researcher, I'm just a poor schlub trying to make
> sense of crap that doesn't seem to make sense. Just like the rest of us
> laypeople.

Yeah, TC you are a dumb f.ck pretending to be a scientific Arse.....1

You are NOT fooling anybody.

> > Your research skills are poor.
>
> They're better than many and as good as most. I never claimed to have
> accesss to all research resources, though. Which is why I bring up
> these things for discussion in this supposedle learned group. And it
> worked. We brought some enlightenment to a subject that was unclear.

Yes, TC  sucks in the research department.  TC 'The Complainer'
research skills are very poor.

> > In a brief time, I found the Lavoisier-Laplace reference that you
> > claimed "COULDN"T EXIST".
>
> The reference as presented in the textbook did not exist. It was in a
> different year entirely. And the actual topic covered by L & L were not
> clear at all.

TC sucks at providing references.  Why am I NOT surprised?

> > So very very sloppy in technique.
> >
> > Your knowledge of scientific history is really second rate.
>
> I never claimed to be an expert in scientific history. I'm just a
> student of the world.

Yes, TC is clearly second rate yesterdays garbage.

> > Your original argument mixed an opinion article by behavioral
> > psychologists in as if this were new information, and then you followed
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> reference in a university bio-chem textbook. And it was at least
> partially wrong.

Maybe TC simply don't know how to read or to properly cite a reference?

> > You are headed to the JC "Kill Filter" status for me.
>
> Knock yourself out.

Oh!  If only Google Groups had a Twit Filter.

> > I am sorry I wasted my time dealing with you.
>
> I'm not done, we still have to examine Rubner. That is going to be
> interesting. I can tell by just glancing at some of his "theories". He
> sounds like a bit of an over-reacher in the theories that he proposes.
> Which, I think, will enlighten us even more on this topic.

TC you are indeed done.  You are yesterdays garbage.

Just thought that you might want to know.
Roger Zoul - 22 Feb 2006 15:58 GMT
> You are headed to the JC "Kill Filter" status for me.

Please don't forget, Jim, that TC means well.  His heart IS in the right
place.  He is not a troll here.
jbuch - 23 Feb 2006 01:50 GMT
>>You are headed to the JC "Kill Filter" status for me.
>
> Please don't forget, Jim, that TC means well.  His heart IS in the right
> place.  He is not a troll here.

There is an argument that in some ways, Marx, Lenin and Stalin "meant
well" to differing degrees.

But Communism was founded on the false assumptions that men (and women)
could be induced to live and work unselfishly for the common good.  This
is "Meaning Well" of a high order.

The results of this "well meaning" were not good - however, far from it.

"Meaning Well" and doing badly happen to meld together in many strange
ways when misunderstanding of issues and facts are intermingled.

His "Meaning Well" is further spreading the disinformation and confusion
that he claims to be trying to eliminate.

I would rather have a well educated person who "Means Only OK" try to
work on the problem.  It ain't gonna get fixed by idiots "Meaning Well",
but who are compounding the confusion and disinformation problem as a
result of their inate limitations.

JC doesn't have the "Meaning Well" excuse nor the propensity to create
harm by "meaning well" - so you are right in that aspect.

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Roger Zoul - 23 Feb 2006 04:09 GMT
>>>You are headed to the JC "Kill Filter" status for me.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> who are compounding the confusion and disinformation problem as a result
> of their inate limitations.

Good point.  History speaks of many "well meaning" folks who did great harm.
Alf Christophersen - 25 Feb 2006 04:00 GMT
>Good point.  History speaks of many "well meaning" folks who did great harm.

Herostratos comes quickly to my mind :-)
Roger Zoul - 22 Feb 2006 15:55 GMT
> I was a professional researcher for nearly 40 years. I know how sloppy
> most research actually is. Too much of my career was involved in fixing
> sloppy and some frankly stupid research.  It is plentiful.

Very true. It saddens me at how sloppy researchers have become.  I see it
all the time as an editor/reviewer of technical journals/articles.
jbuch - 23 Feb 2006 02:05 GMT
>>I was a professional researcher for nearly 40 years. I know how sloppy
>>most research actually is. Too much of my career was involved in fixing
>>sloppy and some frankly stupid research.  It is plentiful.
>
> Very true. It saddens me at how sloppy researchers have become.  I see it
> all the time as an editor/reviewer of technical journals/articles.

Not long ago, there was a study which revealed that it is common for
people use as reference papers they never read. Especially the older
classics. They just copy the way they were cited in another publication
and go merrily along. I no longer bother to keep notes on such
discouraging stuff.

They often get added as "Window Dressing" to spiff up the appearance of
your paper and assume the cloak of having done real research.

Once in a while, I, sadly, did it myself - but I always "Intended" to
someday actually read the papers. That makes it OK :-)

At any rate, it isn't highly uncommon for a classic paper to be
referenced for saying something it never said.... or for the publication
date to be moxied, or the title even mangled.

I suppose I am divulging that some researchers today are frauds, or near
frauds. But, that isn't news if you have done much real research.

Have you ever considered publishing an editorial or letter to the editor
requiring that authors agree, as an automatic condition of publication,
that they are certifying that they have actually read all of their
references?

Or let them have two classes of papers. One is "Publication as usual"
and the second is "Certified Read References" where the authors now
certify that they have indeed read each of the references they cite.

I would love to hear how authors react to the opportunity to elect
"Publication as usual". Without in any way placing the publication
status of their paper at risk.

It is possible that the original citation of Lavoisier and Laplace fell
into the "Classic" reference class.... where the textbook authors had
never read it, but passed along their intrepretation of how it had been
referenced by authors of othe publications.  Eventually, the supposed
content of the original paper becomes "Plastic" and easily molded to the
intent or convenience of contemporary authors.

Again, all of the above is pretty well known to those who do/did
research for a living.

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Roger Zoul - 23 Feb 2006 04:07 GMT
>>>I was a professional researcher for nearly 40 years. I know how sloppy
>>>most research actually is. Too much of my career was involved in fixing
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> They often get added as "Window Dressing" to spiff up the appearance of
> your paper and assume the cloak of having done real research.

Well, I've compiled lists of reference papers using this approach.  You try
to do it by topic, too, maybe sometimes just skimming the paper.  Then, when
it comes time to cite, you try to be thorough.  However, it's certian bad
form to say that ressearchers XX and YY said this and that in [*].  That,
you've got to check if you want to enjoy a good reputation.

> Once in a while, I, sadly, did it myself - but I always "Intended" to
> someday actually read the papers. That makes it OK :-)

Well, these days, page charges can hit you hard if you let the paper run too
long due to unnecessary cites.

> At any rate, it isn't highly uncommon for a classic paper to be referenced
> for saying something it never said.... or for the publication date to be
> moxied, or the title even mangled.

Yes...and worse still, with online publications that don't list on the site
the same info given in the paper, it becomes more time-consuming (in some
ways) to look up references.

> I suppose I am divulging that some researchers today are frauds, or near
> frauds. But, that isn't news if you have done much real research.

Well, most that I encounter are just sloppy.  But in another sense many are
frauds...in the journals I deal with people will rarely talk seriously about
what doesn't work, only what did. Hence, it's hard to know the limits of
their approach...I think many times it's more important to know where a
technique fails than where it works.

> Have you ever considered publishing an editorial or letter to the editor
> requiring that authors agree, as an automatic condition of publication,
> that they are certifying that they have actually read all of their
> references?

No.  Such a thought never occured to me.  However, I get upset with their
apparently lack of attention to detail....such as figures that are poorly
labeled, poor grammar, etc.  If there happen to be lots of equations, you
wonder if they are right..or if it's experimental, you wonder about data
collection/reporting..and that brings up another matter...reviewers rarely
check equations and derivations anymore.  Everyone is too busy.

> Or let them have two classes of papers. One is "Publication as usual" and
> the second is "Certified Read References" where the authors now certify
> that they have indeed read each of the references they cite.

:)

> I would love to hear how authors react to the opportunity to elect
> "Publication as usual". Without in any way placing the publication status
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> content of the original paper becomes "Plastic" and easily molded to the
> intent or convenience of contemporary authors.

It would not surprise me.

> Again, all of the above is pretty well known to those who do/did research
> for a living.
Mirek Fidler - 22 Feb 2006 16:49 GMT
> it off. There is plenty of low-cal food available at the local grocer.

You still do not get it do not you?

Calorie restriction is not about low-cal food, that is just your wild
imagination (maybe inspired by low-cal food marketing). But the real
meaning of "calorie restriction", as understood by people (well, at
least, most people) in this room has NOTHING to do with low-cal foods.

E.g. I am now on calorie restriction HIGH-FAT diet for more than 2 years
 and I must say that it works exactly as predicted (keeps the weight off).

Unless you fix your terminology, nobody can take you seriously.

Mirek
TC - 22 Feb 2006 21:30 GMT
> > it off. There is plenty of low-cal food available at the local grocer.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Mirek

Now that is a different case altogether from typical LCDs.

The typical low cal diet that fails 90 to 95% of the time is LOW FAT.
You eat HIGH FAT and I presume LOW CARB, at least relatively speaking.
Then you are proving my point that restricting carbs are more important
than restricting fats.

TC
Mirek Fidler - 22 Feb 2006 21:47 GMT
> The typical low cal diet that fails 90 to 95% of the time is LOW FAT.

The low calorie diet is low calorie diet.

It has NOTHING to do with macronutrient composition.

It has NOTHING to do with average energy density.

The only things it has to do something is total number of calories
eaten. Nothing else.

If you want to be taken seriously, start speaking about "ad libitum
low-fat diet", or if you wish "ad libitum low average energy density
diet", because that is perhaps what you have on the mind. But stop
confusing terms.

You look like fool.

Mirek
TC - 22 Feb 2006 22:07 GMT
With fat being 9 cals per gram and proteins and carbs being 4, low cal
has always been primarily low fat. And with the big fear on against fat
in the last 50 years, fat has always been the primary target of low cal
diets.

To say that low cal has nothing to do with fats is not a realistic
statement. Any low cal diet that is not low fat is an anomaly. I, and
most people, equate low cal and low fat to be the same diet with the
same goals of restricting calories.

And although my interpretation may not be the most accurate use of the
language, it is still just a matter of semantics for the vast majority
of people seeking to lose weight by following the mainstreams idea of a
weight loss diet, namely low-fat/low-calorie.

TC

> > The typical low cal diet that fails 90 to 95% of the time is LOW FAT.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Mirek
Roger Zoul - 22 Feb 2006 23:38 GMT
> With fat being 9 cals per gram and proteins and carbs being 4, low cal
> has always been primarily low fat. And with the big fear on against fat
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> of people seeking to lose weight by following the mainstreams idea of a
> weight loss diet, namely low-fat/low-calorie.

Who cares what dummies thing.  LC can be low calorie.  It typically is for
people who manage weight loss.
Restricting fat is just one way to get low cal....restricting the amount of
food eaten is another, which is what LC does by appetite suppression.  But
why am I telling you this...you're never going to listen.

Yeah, I think it's time I quit playing with you.

> TC
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>>
>> Mirek
TC - 23 Feb 2006 15:22 GMT
> > With fat being 9 cals per gram and proteins and carbs being 4, low cal
> > has always been primarily low fat. And with the big fear on against fat
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Yeah, I think it's time I quit playing with you.

Come on now. For over 30 years now low calorie has been the exact same
as low fat. They were entirely interchangeable. Some very supposedly
intelligent people, like doctors, nutrtionists, and many experts use
the terms interchangeably.

For you to suggest otherwise is silly.

And yes, I understand the difference, and yes I understand that low
carb can be low calorie, although I see no need for it. I have never
even considered fats and calories the entire 5 or 6 years I've been low
carbing and my weight is perfectly steady where I want it to be.

TC
Susan - 22 Feb 2006 22:04 GMT
> The typical low cal diet that fails 90 to 95% of the time is LOW FAT.
> You eat HIGH FAT and I presume LOW CARB, at least relatively speaking.
> Then you are proving my point that restricting carbs are more important
> than restricting fats.
>
> TC

But not more important than restricting calories.

Except in terms of health benefits, that is.

Susan
Roger Zoul - 22 Feb 2006 23:35 GMT
>> > it off. There is plenty of low-cal food available at the local grocer.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> The typical low cal diet that fails 90 to 95% of the time is LOW FAT.
> You eat HIGH FAT and I presume LOW CARB, at least relatively speaking.

> Then you are proving my point that restricting carbs are more important
> than restricting fats.

Good grief....most of us here are LCers, TC.  Do you really think we are
debating that point?  If so, you're a loon.
Enrico C - 26 Feb 2006 21:21 GMT
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:35:06 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
<news:11vpt9i22moib8d@news.supernews.com> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

[...]
>> Now that is a different case altogether from typical LCDs.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Good grief....most of us here are LCers, TC.  Do you really think we are
> debating that point?  If so, you're a loon.

Also many non-LCers do not believe in low-fat. :)

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb

Signature

Enrico C

* cut the ending "cut-togli.invalid" string when replying by email *

TC - 26 Feb 2006 22:41 GMT
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:35:06 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
> <news:11vpt9i22moib8d@news.supernews.com> on
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> --
> Enrico C

Not everyone in sci.med.nutrition agrees with low carb.

TC
jbuch - 27 Feb 2006 00:51 GMT
>>On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:35:06 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
>><news:11vpt9i22moib8d@news.supernews.com> on
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> TC

Not everybody in sci.med.nutrition agrees with the concept of Jesus either.

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

 
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