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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / April 2006south beach for beginners
Hi! We'd love to have you join South Beach Diet for Beginners. We are a new group that was formed to help people lose weight. I have 83 pounds off!! Plase join us at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/South_Beach_Diet_Beginners/. Thanks! > Hi! We'd love to have you join South Beach Diet for Beginners. We are a > new group that was formed to help people lose weight. I have 83 pounds [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thanks! I looked at the site. Unfortunately (as with all yahoo groups), I can't check any messages without joining. However, I would like to make a comment about the picture that is shown on the opening page. I have been using SB for about 2 years, so I'm not really a beginner, but I still have lots to learn. However, that photo is a complete turn-off for me. I want to learn how to stay healthy -- in fact, it was *essential* because I was diagnosed with diabetes, and that was my motivation to change to a better diet. Weight loss was important, but it was important because it was linked to diabetes and general health. I have had a considerable amount of success, and the reason I turn away from sites with pretty photos like that is that it looks like all of the "women's magazines" from my past -- emphasis on desserts and "pretty" foods rather than on nutrition. Yes, I want food to taste good, but I think that page makes a statement that reinforces our desires for sweet-tasting food and not food that is healthy but can also taste good. (I admit, the ingredients are probably all "legal" within SB, so it is the *perception* I am talking about.) I would actually like to see groups like that succeed, so I hope this will be taken as a suggestion to reconsider the focus of your group rather than some sort of mean-spirited putdown. MaryL The focus of the group is eating healthy with fresh, natural foods. The picture is a picture of a South Beach Diet phase 2 breakfast recipe made with fat free, sugar free vanilla yogurt, fresh strawberries and whole grain, high-fiber cereal. I have no idea why that would "turn you off." Food doesn't have to look ugly to be acceptable. I have 83 lbs off, have gone from a size 32 to a size 16, my blood pressure meds have been cut in half and my blood sugar is exactly where it should be as a result of doing the South Beach Diet. > The focus of the group is eating healthy with fresh, natural foods. The > picture is a picture of a South Beach Diet phase 2 breakfast recipe > made with fat free, sugar free vanilla yogurt, fresh strawberries and > whole grain, high-fiber cereal. I have no idea why that would "turn you > off." Food doesn't have to look ugly to be acceptable. This is a low carb newsgroup, so SBD is inappropriate here. Second, fat free dairy is thickened with starches and gums; most of us here are sophisticated enough to avoid those nutrient empoverished fillers in favor of real foods. My breakfast was whole milk yogurt and 2% cottage cheese from grass fed dairy cows with organic raspberries and chopped nuts. > I have 83 lbs off, have gone from a size 32 to a size 16, my blood > pressure meds have been cut in half and my blood sugar is exactly where > it should be as a result of doing the South Beach Diet. My blood sugar and lipids are exactly where they should be, eating a lot less starch and a lot more fat than the SBD calls for. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > This is a low carb newsgroup, so SBD is inappropriate here. Not true. SBD is considered to be low carb -- just not AS low carb as Atkins. Most people here seem to be following Atkins, but there are several people here on SBD.  SignatureSaffire 205/138/135-140 (aka JUST RIGHT!) Atkins since 6/14/03 Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333 *** This post originated in alt.support.diet.low-carb -- its appearance in any other forum is deceptive and unauthorized. *** >>x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Atkins. Most people here seem to be following Atkins, but there are > several people here on SBD. Not by its author it's not; he states that his is not a low carb diet. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Susan Yes, Dr. Atkison refers to "good carbs not low carb." Nevertheless, SBD is *much* lower in carbs than what most of us ate in our pre-low-carb or pre-lower-carb diet days. I follow most of the SBD principles (*plus* I eat *no* added sugar, pasta, flour, rice, or potatoes). Nevertheless, I learn a lot from this group, and I don't see why it is "inappropriate" to discuss SBD principles along with Atkins. MaryL >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > MaryL Ooops. It's Dr. Agatston, not "Atkison." MaryL But it is low carb. You'll never exceed 100 carbs a day, and most days, it will be lower. It won't be as low as the 20 carbs a day on Atkins Induciton, but it will be low. No, the author's emphasis isn't on "low carb," but on good carbs, since some people on low carb diets exist on junk food. However, it is low carb. > But it is low carb. You'll never exceed 100 carbs a day, and most days, > it will be lower. It won't be as low as the 20 carbs a day on Atkins > Induciton, but it will be low. No, the author's emphasis isn't on "low > carb," but on good carbs, since some people on low carb diets exist on > junk food. However, it is low carb. I don't believe low carbers live on junk food, but I do believe that SBDers do, since they're eating crap additives in fat free fat dairy and adding in starches instead of more veggies. Susan > I don't believe low carbers live on junk food, but I do believe that > SBDers do, since they're eating crap additives in fat free fat dairy and > adding in starches instead of more veggies. I agree with this. The only "fake" foods I eat are unflavored, unsweetened milk-based protein powder, low-carb tortillas (rarely) and artifical sweetners. I eat at around 40-50 g carb per day. 95% of those carbs are from small servings of lower-carb fruits (melon and berries), huge servings of veggies, and moderate servings of full-fat dairy. Most starchy foods have almost no nutritive value and no real taste, so I'd rather "spend" my carbs mostly on fruits, veggies and dairy. My bg is *not* controlled by this regime, fasting runs in the 120-140 range and postprandial in the 140-160 range. But I've been diabetic for nearly 2 decades, so I'm in pretty good shape for not being on any meds. But... I *have* to eat high fat. To stick to low carb and moderate protein (cause high amounts of protein convert to glucose and raise bg) is only 600 calories a day. Can't live on that - so fat is my friend. > I agree with this. The only "fake" foods I eat are unflavored, > unsweetened milk-based protein powder, low-carb tortillas (rarely) and > artifical sweetners. And the tortillas prolly aren't really fake. > I eat at around 40-50 g carb per day. 95% of those carbs are from > small servings of lower-carb fruits (melon and berries), huge servings > of veggies, and moderate servings of full-fat dairy. > > Most starchy foods have almost no nutritive value and no real taste, so > I'd rather "spend" my carbs mostly on fruits, veggies and dairy. Compared to veggies, starches are nutritionally impoverished. Without BHA and BHT, they oxidize very rapidly, too. > My bg is *not* controlled by this regime, fasting runs in the 120-140 > range and postprandial in the 140-160 range. But I've been diabetic > for nearly 2 decades, so I'm in pretty good shape for not being on any > meds. That's awfully high... but you know that. I wonder if you could also be MODY, like Jenny. Sensitive to insulin, but her insulin is defective, doesn't work right? > But... I *have* to eat high fat. To stick to low carb and moderate > protein (cause high amounts of protein convert to glucose and raise bg) > is only 600 calories a day. Can't live on that - so fat is my friend. So far, all the studies I've looked at find that protein does not raise bg except in type 1 without insulin. It's a very slow and inefficient conversion. But I agree that fat is critical to diabetes management, assuming it's quality fat. Susan > That's awfully high... but you know that. I wonder if you could also be > MODY, like Jenny. Sensitive to insulin, but her insulin is defective, > doesn't work right? It's really not that high. I mean, I've been diabetic almost two decades now and it is a progressive disease. My dad was diabetic... they were thrilled if they could keep him under 200. The bar has moved a lot since then. I am gonna try the metformin again though. See if it gets me to where I'd like to be. > > But... I *have* to eat high fat. To stick to low carb and moderate > > protein (cause high amounts of protein convert to glucose and raise bg) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bg except in type 1 without insulin. It's a very slow and inefficient > conversion. If I pig out on protein, my bg goes up. Sure, it goes up more gradually than with carbs, but still... my baseline is high, so I can't afford it. > But I agree that fat is critical to diabetes management, > assuming it's quality fat. Majority of the fat I eat is probably animal fat - dairy and meat. I do eat flaxmeal daily and olive is my primary oil (though I use more butter than oil). But I bet more than half my fat is from animal sources. > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan Not true. There are variations in SBers, just as there is room for some personal variation in Atkins. I eat all fresh food, nothing processed. I will not buy the SB frozen foods and also will not eat the Atkins bars, etc. SB calls for lots of veggies, despite your statement. One big difference between SB and Atkins (as you said) is SB emphasis on low fat. I have been reading some of Atkins lately (and have also been "cheating" by listening to it on CD), and I have been surprised to see how many similarities there really are between the two. Each group seems to criticize the other without having any real understanding of the principles involved -- that is, each group makes "statements" about what the other "requires," statements which it seems to me are exaggeratons and sometimes just plain incorrect. MaryL >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > MaryL Mary, since you're not actually *on* the SBD, and you stated that skim milk would be "unacceptable" on Atkins, you don't seem to have a strong basis for understanding either, necessarily. The similarities between the diets, as you note, are because SBD was created to cash in on Atkin's success, while pretending that avoidance of saturated fat was healthier, despite lack of any research establishing the fact. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Susan I stated that skim milk would be "unacceptable" on Atkins because Dr. Atkins (on his CD that I have been listening to) frequently says to use *only* full-fat. I do not pretend to be particularly knowledgeable. As I said, I am now reading through some of the literature and listening to Atkins CDs. Your second paragraph is *your* interpretation, definitely *not* mine -- so please do not say that I "noted" tht SBD was created to cash in on Atkins' success. I said no such thing! MaryL > I stated that skim milk would be "unacceptable" on Atkins because Dr. Atkins > (on his CD that I have been listening to) frequently says to use *only* > full-fat. I do not pretend to be particularly knowledgeable. As I said, I > am now reading through some of the literature and listening to Atkins CDs. That's a recommendation, and if one is doing induction, it makes sense, but the diet is tweaked by the dieter from then on, within certain carb limits. > Your second paragraph is *your* interpretation, definitely *not* mine -- so > please do not say that I "noted" tht SBD was created to cash in on Atkins' > success. I said no such thing! Sorry for the syntax; I meant to denote your observation that the diets are so similar. SBD would be plagiarism if not for the sat fat restrictions and liberal use of starches. Susan > Sorry for the syntax; I meant to denote your observation that the diets > are so similar. SBD would be plagiarism if not for the sat fat > restrictions and liberal use of starches. Starch is a whole other problem. I really don't see any difference in diet between eating starch and just eating sugar. Starch is pretty much instantly hydrolyzed to sugar in your stomach anyways. There's really not a benefit to eating mashed potatoes instead of a candy bar. >>Sorry for the syntax; I meant to denote your observation that the diets >>are so similar. SBD would be plagiarism if not for the sat fat [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > There's really not a benefit to eating mashed potatoes instead of a > candy bar. I completely agree. Any time starch is eaten where a nutrient dense veggie has been replaced, a healthy eating opportunity has been missed. And a chance at preserving beta cell function. Susan > I stated that skim milk would be "unacceptable" on Atkins because Dr. Atkins > (on his CD that I have been listening to) frequently says to use *only* > full-fat. I do not pretend to be particularly knowledgeable. As I said, I > am now reading through some of the literature and listening to Atkins CDs. I don't do milk at all. I use heavy cream. We go through a quart about every two weeks (one of my cats drinks more than half of it - she freaking loves it). Hubby drinks milk regularly, but he doesn't low-carb at all - I buy him whole milk cause that's what he likes. The problem with SBD as far as I'm concerned is the emphasis on low-fat. I'm not on Atkins either. As noted, I have tried many variations of diet, meds and supplements as I've been diabetic almost 2 decades. For me, if I eat over 50 g carb or 100 g protein, my bg goes up into the 160-180 range. So... SBD is simply not do-able for me, I must get the majority of my calories from fat. I'm quite glad it works for you. I presume your diabetes isn't nearly as advanced and it's likely to progress extremely slowly if you continue on SBD, which is a low-carb diet after all. Having lived this way for a while, I am used to it. If I only have the option of half-and-half for my coffee, it tastes like crap. It's too "low fat" for me. Not as bad as whole milk, but pretty close. As far as skim milk... if I had a source of it for free, I'd feed it to the chickens and turn it into eggs. ;) Skim milk is just not edible. Frankly, even my one cat that drinks half my cream has learned to turn up her nose at whole milk cause she *knows* there's real cream in the fridge. I'm the same with all dairy products... I want real full-fat sour cream, ricotta, mozarella, cheddar, yogurt, ricotta, cream cheese, cottage cheese, etc. I'd rather eat smaller portions if I need to limit calories than eat the low-fat stuff, which tastes like absolute crap to me. For some reason, everything around here gets compared to Atkins. I personally prefer Bernstein and the Eades. Not that I do their diets either, I do a home-grown diet. I've been busy in the garden and yard a lot lately and keep forgetting to eat when I get to working until I konk out. So today I made myself have a cup of 4% cottage cheese before I went outside so I'd not have to quit after 3 or 4 hours. I took a big glass of water outside with me - about a liter. At the 4 hour mark, I came back inside and had a cup of watermelon and honeydew out of the fridge and refilled my water. Then I went out and did another 3 hours of physical work. Came back in and nuked a bowl of italian sausage, peppers, onions and garlic I had fried up a few days ago, then nuked some full-fat mozarella over it. Had some diet soda with that as I got online and began unwinding and pampering my poor hands with all the open blisters. :( I had 2 cups of coffee with heavy cream and aspartame before the day began and will have a big salad with full-fat ranch salad dressing and a hard boiled egg before bed. I did a total of 7 hours physical work today... some mowing (with a manual mower), cleaning out the strawberry beds, etc. with seed starting and transplanting in between the heavier work. I eat so little carb and protein that if I didn't eat the full-fat stuff, I'd never have the energy to work like that. For me, the entire "problem" with SBD is it's emphasis on low-fat. I can't do it... and I don't want to. >> I stated that skim milk would be "unacceptable" on Atkins because Dr. >> Atkins [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > as advanced and it's likely to progress extremely slowly if you > continue on SBD, which is a low-carb diet after all. I don't have any data to verify your last statement, but I suspect (and HOPE) it may be correct. At the same time, don't forget that I am really using a "modified" version of SBD because I have not eaten *any* rice, potatoes, sugar, flour, or added sugar from the time I started on this diet (shortly after being diagnosed in June 2004). I did that because of the diabetes, but it obviously also helped with my weight loss. I never have used much milk. I never drink it and add only a small amount to oatmeal (the only type of cereal I try to eat now). There are lots of low-fat cheeses that I find unpalatable (and don't eat them), but I very much like Jarlsbrg Lite. I do use plain non-fat yogurt, but only as an occasional topping on fresh strawberries. I try to avoid fatty cuts of meat except for occasional bacon with my eggs, but I do eat lots of eggs. MaryL South Beach Diet is low in carbohydrates, and only complex carbs are allowed. If you don't want fat free, you can eat low fat. Low fat yogurt is a real food. How would you know how much fat the SBD calls for? With all the lean beef, lean pork, chicken, fish, dairy, olive oil and canola oil you eat on SBD, you get plenty of fats. You don't sound very knowledgeable or savvy, as you describe yourself to be. > South Beach Diet is low in carbohydrates, and only complex carbs are > allowed. Potatoes are complex carbs and they're higher GI than table sugar; complex and simple are meaningless terms in the context of nutrition and metabolism. > If you don't want fat free, you can eat low fat. Low fat > yogurt is a real food. How would you know how much fat the SBD calls > for? With all the lean beef, lean pork, chicken, fish, dairy, olive oil > and canola oil you eat on SBD, you get plenty of fats. But no flavor. I'd rather eat meats with their own healthy fats from grass fed animals. I'd rather eat healthy fats in whole milk dairy from grass fed animals. Have you read the research on the fats in animals fed on grass, or the Swiss paradox? The Swiss eat loads of fat rich dairy, and have one of the lowest CVD rates around. Their cows are grass fed, and rich in heart healthy fats, as are their products. Why would I trade off the good eating experience of healthy, tasty meats for lean ones? You don't sound > very knowledgeable or savvy, as you describe yourself to be. I'll leave your inaccurate and ignorant info to speak for itself. Susan Sometimes that's best. :-) -- Cheri >I'll leave your inaccurate and ignorant info to speak for itself. > >Susan > South Beach Diet is low in carbohydrates, and only complex carbs are > allowed. If you don't want fat free, you can eat low fat. Low fat > yogurt is a real food. How would you know how much fat the SBD calls > for? With all the lean beef, lean pork, chicken, fish, dairy, olive oil > and canola oil you eat on SBD, you get plenty of fats. You don't sound > very knowledgeable or savvy, as you describe yourself to be. But... you have to eat *something*. I have to eat < 50 g carb to control my bg. And I have to eat < 100 g protein to control my bg. That only adds up to 600 kilocalories. So... I need to eat 800 kilocalories of fat each day to have enough energy to do anything. So SBD is too low-fat and too high-carb for me. Not saying it doesn't work for other people, cause 100 g carb per day is definetly low-carb compared to the average diet. Just... for me, it wouldn't work. 100 g carb/day would send my bg into the 200+ range. I'm much better off with the fat than with the starchy fillers of low-fat dairy. >> South Beach Diet is low in carbohydrates, and only complex carbs are >> allowed. If you don't want fat free, you can eat low fat. Low fat [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I'm much better off with the fat than with the starchy fillers of > low-fat dairy. That may be one reason why SB has worked so welll for me in controlling my diabetes. I use skim milk (not acceptable in Atkins), but only a tiny amount -- just enough for oatmeal, so 1 quart lasts more than a week and some is always thrown away. That's *all* the milk I use. I also use low fat cheese, but only Jarlsberg Lite, so I don't consume large quantities of that, either. Finally, there is plain low-fat yogurt -- I *occasionally* put some on fresh strawberries, but that's it! More often, I just eat the berries. So, I do eat low-fat, but generally I just avoid those foods. I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes in June 2004. Since shifting to SB from my previous junk food/quick take-out/Weight Watchers frozen/whatever's quick and easy, etc. diet, I have lost a substantial amount of weight and have not needed *any* medication since March of 2005. My FBG was 238 when diagnosed and is now averaging 96-97 (including BG readings taken at various times of the day). Incidentally, I am not a "true" BGer because I also consume *no* pasta, potatoes, rice, flour, or added sugar. I don't even use sugar substitutes because my big downfall in the past was cravings for sweet stuff. I have learned to like the fresh, natural taste of berries and that serves me well as "dessert." MaryL Please leave the addy of the person you are responding to at the top of your messages. As it is, it is difficult to see who you are answering. It is also best to leave a small portion of the previous message -- not the entire message, just enough to provide a continuum for the message (something I am not doing here because this is a comment I am interjecting that is not part of the original thread -- which means that I also am not following normal protocol here!). > The focus of the group is eating healthy with fresh, natural foods. The > picture is a picture of a South Beach Diet phase 2 breakfast recipe [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pressure meds have been cut in half and my blood sugar is exactly where > it should be as a result of doing the South Beach Diet. My comment wasn't meant as an insult (and hopefully was not overly negative). I also realize that the dessert shown is "legal" within SBD, and I did not mean to imply that the pictures need to be "ugly." What I was trying to bring up is the whole concept of so many sites emphasizing desserts -- low carb/lower-carb or not -- instead of placing more emphasis on *appetizing* and *nutritional" foods that should make up the staples of our diets. As I said, that's the same approach that so many women's magazines have used over the years that tempt us toward all the "sweet" foods. That was my downfall in past years, and I now try to focus more on the mainstays of my diet. That does not mean that everyone has to entirely give up desserts. MaryL I obviously can't take a picture of my own food and post it on the site, since it wouldn't be a professional picture. So, my only choice was to go to the SBD site and use a picture from a recipe there. I like pink, so I chose one with a pink background. But, the food is healthy. But, that's not a dessert, it's a breakfast. > The focus of the group is eating healthy with fresh, natural foods. The > picture is a picture of a South Beach Diet phase 2 breakfast recipe > made with fat free, sugar free vanilla yogurt, fresh strawberries and > whole grain, high-fiber cereal. I have no idea why that would "turn you > off." Food doesn't have to look ugly to be acceptable. No, but it has to have fat to be acceptable. Least to my taste buds. I'd rather it be ugly and taste good. Fat-free yogurt is scary. <shudder> |
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