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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / May 2006Dr Bernstein's Diabetes Solution alternative
Hello My aunt is diabetic and I'm looking for an alternative to the allopathic diet her endocrinologist prescribed to her, which is basically eat all the sh.t you want as long as you take insulin injection. A lower carb approach is what I want to propose to her but I'm not still sure what kind of diet Many on the LC quarters praise Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and I wonder if any diabetic here has success with this diet. Just like I didn't trust the usda high carb gurus I don't trust low carb gurus for the sake of it and I'm perplexed about Dr. Bernstein diet because of his claims (often wrong imo) that lead to a diet which is basically just animal food and may not be that healthy for everyone. I'm actually afraid that Dr Bernstein diet could worsen the condition Dr Bernstein claims that the exclusion of all foods that contain quite a few carbs would decrease the level of insulin. Then why beef raises insulin more than rice? It should be known so far that the author of the Glycemic Index realized the GI was not a good predictor of insulin output so he studied indeed the effect of each food on insulin levels and contrary to the belief of many many animal foods with a low carb content or no carb content raised insulin levels more than many high carb foods. If that is true clearly substituting all carbs food with meat and other animal foods may worsen the condition instead of improving it. Holt SA et al Am J Clin Nutr 1997;66:1264-76 Dr Bernstein says that all low glycemic carb foods will raise postprandial glycemia in all diabetics and we just need to check it with a glucometer but not only this is not true for everyone as I know diabetics who can eat brown rice without getting postprandial sugar spikes but Dr Bernsteain makes the mistake of checking the effects of isolated foods but it's well known that carbs consumed with protein and some fat keep sugar level steady and prevent sugar spike. If you are diabetics and have a glucometer just check the effect of eating 50 grams of pearled barley alone and 50 grams of pearled barley and 50 grams of top sirloin plus a tbs of extra virgin oil or melted butter. Last but not least the most important method to prevent insulin and sugar spikes has to do with distribution rather than amount of carbs or protein. Eating 6 to 9 small meals every three hours instead of a breakfast, lunch and dinner lowers postprandial lipemia and glycemia and prevents sugar roller coaster. Eating timing and carb timing is more important than banning this or that macronutrient from the diet and as a matter of fact the most important factor in keeping diabetes and sugar levels under control is not diet but exercise and physical activity. When the body exercises and requires fuel it becomes more sensitive to glucose the amount of glucose receptors in the cells increase and insulin is more effective. Another important test to make. Try to eat fruit alone on a normal day and check your blood sugar levels then try to eat fruit alone after your have exercised and check your blood sugar levels. Am J Clin Nutr 1970;23:1059-68/ N Engl J Med 1989;321:929-34/ Am J Clin Nutr 1993;57:446-51/ Am J Clin Nutr 1992;55:664-9/ Int J Obesity 1998;22:105-12/ You may say: why don't you shut up and just tell all of this to your aunt? Well, my aunt is very skeptic and to just give her a serious book on keeping diabetes under control through diet and exercise as a present would be the only way to convince her to give it a try. I don't know any low carb but not almost 0 carbs or ketogenic book that deal with diabetes. I would rather suggest to my uncle a moderate/low carb diet instead of Dr Bernstein's because of the reasons above, I'm really afraid Bernstein diet would worsen his condition and I do know there are testimonials on the book of people who had success but there are many success testimonial on Pritikin book that suggests 10% fat and 10% protein My questions are: do you know a diabetes solution low carb alternative that deals more with actual insulin output, effect of exercise and balanced small meals rather than Dr Bernstein diet? If not, what do you think about my doubts of Dr Bernstein dietary guideline? Did you have success with that diet? Is there anyone who has diebetes and whose health worsened by following his diet? Thanks David > Hello > My aunt is diabetic and I'm looking for an alternative to the [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > Thanks > David Gretchen Becker's book for type 2 diabetics, The First Year is the best overall guide I can recommend. There are very informative reviews on amazon.com about it. Dr. Bernstein is a type 1, and his information is excellent, even if you don't stick within all his guidelines completely. Becker may be more of what you're looking for. Susan I think Bernstein does the best job of explaining diabetes and recommend his book highly. That being said, I don't follow his diet. I eat in the range of 40-50 g carb, 100 g protein.day. I agree with the idea to eat to your meter, generally. There's too much variation in what works amongst diabetics. I have much less understanding of insulin-dependent diabetes though - he does cover it in detail (it's what he ahs afetr all), but I didn't remember those details as much since it didn't apply to me. Seems like there was lots of info on how various insulins work and such. IMO, the thing to do with Bernstein is to read it, understand the way food, meds, insulins and supplements and such work, and build your own plan for handling your diabetes. It's not a thing about just doing what he says slavishly, but understanding how diabetes works and making your choices from there. Check out the ideas "The New Sugar Busters!" ...Over all I impressed with Dr. Bernstein's personal dietary achievements, but his primary audience is Type 1 diabetics.. G.Becker's book "The First Year ..Type 2 Diabetes.." is excellent. Support is most helpful , but your aunt is the one who needs to be proactive.. I am assuming a lot with that statement..Don't know her age, etc...And if she is elderly, is such a major dietary change really needed? Kit ha scritto: > Check out the ideas "The New Sugar Busters!" ...Over all I impressed > with Dr. Bernstein's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am assuming a lot with that statement..Don't know her age, etc...And > if she is elderly, is such a major dietary change really needed? My aunt is 45 and I hope a majory dietary change is what will save her life as her health is getting worse day by day under the care of orthodox allopathic medicine ... David > Hello > My aunt is diabetic and I'm looking for an alternative to the > allopathic diet her endocrinologist prescribed to her, which is > basically eat all the sh.t you want as long as you take insulin > injection. David, come over to alt.support.diabetes (or better yet, get your aunt over there) for diet advice. You may want to set your newsreader to ignore any crossposted threads - we've been invaded by religious nuts at the moment. Eating and juggling insulin is an art form, and needs advice from people who are doing it. Nicky.  SignatureA1c 10.5/5.4/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg :: Hello :: My aunt is diabetic and I'm looking for an alternative to the :: allopathic diet her endocrinologist prescribed to her, which is :: basically eat all the sh.t you want as long as you take insulin :: injection. Why do you say it's your uncle at the end of this letter? :: A lower carb approach is what I want to propose to her but I'm not :: still sure what kind of diet :: Many on the LC quarters praise Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and I :: wonder if any diabetic here has success with this diet. I've not used his specific diet as I find low carb and exercise works great. :: Just like I didn't trust the usda high carb gurus I don't trust low :: carb gurus for the sake of it and I'm perplexed about Dr. Bernstein :: diet because of his claims (often wrong imo) that lead to a diet :: which is basically just animal food and may not be that healthy for :: everyone. Not sure. It's not just animal food. Where'd you get such a notion? :: I'm actually afraid that Dr Bernstein diet could worsen the condition :: Dr Bernstein claims that the exclusion of all foods that contain :: quite a few carbs would decrease the level of insulin. Are you referring to injected insulin or insulin need to balance out high blood glucose levels? :: Then why beef raises insulin more than rice? Curious that you're so worried about insulin rather than blood glocose levels. Do you have a site for this? :: It should be known so far that the author of the Glycemic Index :: realized the GI was not a good predictor of insulin output so he [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: other animal foods may worsen the condition instead of improving it. :: Holt SA et al Am J Clin Nutr 1997;66:1264-76 This is a curious paragraph. I've been following a LC woe for almost 5 years and have not seen any worsening of my T2 condition. I'd be suspicious of a lay person trying to interpret research without adequate understanding and background. :: Dr Bernstein says that all low glycemic carb foods will raise :: postprandial glycemia in all diabetics and we just need to check it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: with protein and some fat keep sugar level steady and prevent sugar :: spike. It's a YMMV kind of thing, so he describes a type of diet that will make ALL diabetics have NORMAL BGs levels, while not accountnig for those who can tolerate higher carb levels. It's not a mistake to check foods in isolation because one can't check all possible combinations of foods. So knowing which foods likely cause problems and can potentially raise BGs is important - especially if you don't want to test, test, test your entire life. :: If you are diabetics and have a glucometer just check the effect of :: eating 50 grams of pearled barley alone and 50 grams of pearled :: barley and 50 grams of top sirloin plus a tbs of extra virgin oil or :: melted butter. This is well understood, even by Bernstein. :: Last but not least the most important method to prevent insulin and :: sugar spikes has to do with distribution rather than amount of carbs :: or protein. Eating 6 to 9 small meals every three hours instead of a :: breakfast, lunch and dinner lowers postprandial lipemia and glycemia :: and prevents sugar roller coaster. That's only true if you're eating goodly amounts of carbs in those "large" meals. In a lower carb approach, that won't be true. :: Eating timing and carb timing is more important than banning this or :: that macronutrient from the diet and as a matter of fact the most :: important factor in keeping diabetes and sugar levels under control :: is not diet but exercise and physical activity. Frankly, I dont think this is true at all. It is very possible to control BGs by what you eat, and while exercise helps in many ways (I certainly recommend it), it is not an option for some people and may not always be an option for those for which it is currently an option. Eating in a way to control BG is far more important and EASIER (IMO) than timing when and what carbs to eat. Not eating starchy/sugary foods is quite simple, IMO and IME. Of course, for those who have no skill at it that might not be so. Personally, I refuse to dance around the issue. When the body :: exercises and requires fuel it becomes more sensitive to glucose the :: amount of glucose receptors in the cells increase and insulin is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :: Am J Clin Nutr 1993;57:446-51/ :: Am J Clin Nutr 1992;55:664-9/ Int J Obesity 1998;22:105-12/ Yeah, exercise is good for diabetics. It is recommended to exercise even by Dr. B. :: You may say: why don't you shut up and just tell all of this to your :: aunt? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: I don't know any low carb but not almost 0 carbs or ketogenic book :: that deal with diabetes. Even Aktins has a book on diabetes. "Aktins Diabetes Revolution," IIRC. :: I would rather suggest to my uncle a moderate/low carb diet instead :: of Dr Bernstein's because of the reasons above, I'm really afraid :: Bernstein diet would worsen his condition and I do know there are :: testimonials on the book of people who had success but there are many :: success testimonial on Pritikin book that suggests 10% fat and 10% :: protein Well, I can understand your fear if you are not diabetic or a low carber.... I thought it was your aunt with the problems? :: My questions are: do you know a diabetes solution low carb :: alternative that deals more with actual insulin output, I don't know of any diet plan that addresses insulin output....all of them deal with control of blood glucose levels. effect of :: exercise and balanced small meals rather than Dr Bernstein diet? :: If not, what do you think about my doubts of Dr Bernstein dietary :: guideline? Personally, I use exercise and low carb to control my T2. I have completely normal BGs level and A1C, great cholesterol numbers and am on no meds. :: Did you have success with that diet? Yeah, I lost about 142 lbs and am holding steady. :: Is there anyone who has diebetes and whose health worsened by :: following his diet? That's a tricky thing to measure since one can have bad control for years before adopting a new diet and once damage has progressed too far it may be hard to reverse. But I know of no one personally. Roger Zoul ha scritto: > :: Hello > :: My aunt is diabetic and I'm looking for an alternative to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Why do you say it's your uncle at the end of this letter? Because my english sucks > :: A lower carb approach is what I want to propose to her but I'm not > :: still sure what kind of diet [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Not sure. It's not just animal food. Where'd you get such a notion? Well most plant foods are completely forbidden. That leaves very little room for anything that is not animal food. A ratio is not specified but I guess is 90795% animal food and only 10/5% plant food. > :: I'm actually afraid that Dr Bernstein diet could worsen the condition > :: Dr Bernstein claims that the exclusion of all foods that contain > :: quite a few carbs would decrease the level of insulin. > > Are you referring to injected insulin or insulin need to balance out high > blood glucose levels? Well both. For type 2 diabetes the focus would be decreasing the insulin output and for type 1 the focus would be decreasing the amount of insulin needed to be injected > :: Then why beef raises insulin more than rice? > > Curious that you're so worried about insulin rather than blood glocose > levels. Do you have a site for this? Well glycemia is just half of the diabetes equation. Insulin output matter as much. A massive insulin output all the time weaken the pancreas even more too much insulin causes other problems like hypoglycemia or coma. In either case of diabetes or the body produces too little insulin or the body produces too much, because of glucose insensitivity typical of syndrome x. In both cases insulin plays a crucial role. Even Dr Bernstein diet was publicized as a diet that lowers insulin by lowering the amount of carbs consumed as insulin is secreted only when carbs are eaten, some even believe that no carbs = no insulin. But this is not true > :: It should be known so far that the author of the Glycemic Index > :: realized the GI was not a good predictor of insulin output so he [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of a lay person trying to interpret research without adequate understanding > and background. But my point was not directed at low carb, but extremely low carb or high in foods that are believed to prevent insulin secretion and actually have rises insulin secretion more than sugar. If someone believes that only carbs make the body produce insulin they would also believe that the solution to lower insulin secreation is eating just beef and nothing else. They think: beef = no carb = no insulin. This mode of thinking would instead produce opposite effect since beef rises insulin more than other high carbs food. It's a very easy to interpret study: low carb foods may rise insulin as high or even more than high carb food because it's physiologically false that insulin is secreted only when carbs are eaten and so it's false the equation carbs = insulin that most low carb gurus have been claiming. Proteins have the same effect of carbs on insulin levels Only fats are neutral and can lower the insuling rising effect of high carb foods and high proteins foods. > :: Dr Bernstein says that all low glycemic carb foods will raise > :: postprandial glycemia in all diabetics and we just need to check it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > important - especially if you don't want to test, test, test your entire > life. But there are not many conbinations of foods, just basilar ones A big meal of cabs eaten alone three times per day rises postprandial glycemia big time The same meal with protein and some fat lowers the postprandial glycemia big time The same amount of food consumed in more regular small meals lowers glucose levels even more Besides this diet may indeed normalize BGs levels, but if it doesn't normalize insulin levels it's just half the solution it says to be > :: If you are diabetics and have a glucometer just check the effect of > :: eating 50 grams of pearled barley alone and 50 grams of pearled [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That's only true if you're eating goodly amounts of carbs in those "large" > meals. In a lower carb approach, that won't be true. It will be true even if for a lower carb diet is consumed and it rises postprandial insulin levels. Even lyposis and ketones are dependent on insulin If low carb diets wouldn't affect insulin levels it would be impossible to gain weight while consuming a low carb diet or a meat and eggs diet and this is not true and I know people who have gained fat weight with those diets. > :: Eating timing and carb timing is more important than banning this or > :: that macronutrient from the diet and as a matter of fact the most [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Of course, for those who have no skill at it that might not be so. > Personally, I refuse to dance around the issue. But there can't be health without exercising, being an option or not Even on low carb diets if there's not exercise the weight loss is mostly muscle and even a thin person may have a body which is mostly fat. As it is well know even a difference or 2% in fat mass percentage may decrease sugar and insuling sensitivity and this is matters even for those who don't consume carbs at all. This is why it is so important to exercise, because lowering BF percentage is the best way to increase insulin sensitivity and sugar sensitivity, losing weight without exercising often does not result in lowering BF percentage at all even if the weight drops I don't think diabetes is a disease related to carbs alone and the evidence is that while eating food low in carbs may control blood gluose levels they don't appear to control insulin levels so well and people on meat and eggs diet may still have insulin spikes and hypoglycemia thereafter or sugar problems while population who consume only high carb foods "pima indians" don't suffer from diabetes but it's not genetics as when they move to US and eat a SAD american diet they develop diabetes like everyone else. This is the only reason why while a low carber myself I'm wary of Dr Bernstein approach > When the body > :: exercises and requires fuel it becomes more sensitive to glucose the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > I thought it was your aunt with the problems? yes, my english .. you know ... typos I'm not diabetics just hypoglycemic and low carber I mentioned Pritikin just to point out that success testimonial are not an evidence of the healthfulness of the diet. > :: My questions are: do you know a diabetes solution low carb > :: alternative that deals more with actual insulin output, > > I don't know of any diet plan that addresses insulin output....all of them > deal with control of blood glucose levels. Actually lowering insulin levels has been the trademark of most low carb gurus and books and it's an important point in keeping diabetes under control even if certain commercial books don't mention it > effect of > :: exercise and balanced small meals rather than Dr Bernstein diet? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > before adopting a new diet and once damage has progressed too far it may be > hard to reverse. But I know of no one personally. Thanks for the replies David > Roger Zoul ha scritto: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > room for anything that is not animal food. A ratio is not specified but > I guess is 90795% animal food and only 10/5% plant food. I don't think you've read the book then. You can even read a lot of it free online here: http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/ But here's a list of just some of the non-animal foods Bernstein says you can and should eat: Vegetables Most vegetables, other than those listed in the No-No section, are acceptable. Acceptable vegetables include asparagus, avocado, broccoli, brussels sprouts, cabbage and sauerkraut, cauliflower, eggplant, onions (in small amounts), peppers (any color except yellow), mushrooms, spinach, string beans, summer squash, and zucchini. As a rule of thumb, ? cup of diced or sliced cooked vegetable,¼ cup mashed cooked vegetable, or 1 cup of mixed salad acts upon blood sugar as if it contains about 6 grams of carbohydrate. Remember that cooked vegetables tend to raise blood sugar more rapidly than raw vegetables because the heat makes them more digestible and converts some of the cellulose to sugar. Generally, more cooked vegetables by weight will occupy less volume in a measuring cup, so ? cup cooked spinach will weigh considerably more than ? cup uncooked. On your self-measurements, note how your favorite vegetables affect your blood sugar. Raw vegetables can present digestive problems to people with gastroparesis. Of the following vegetables, each acts upon blood sugar as if it contains about 6 grams of carbohydrate in ? cup (all cooked except as noted): artichoke hearts asparagus bamboo shoots beet greens bell peppers (green and red only, no yellow) (cooked or raw) bok choy (Chinese cabbage) broccoli brussels sprouts cabbage celery celery root (celeriac) collard greens daikon radish dandelion greens eggplant endive escarole hearts of palm kohlrabi mushrooms mustard greens okra patty pan squash pumpkin radicchio rhubarb sauerkraut scallions snow peas spaghetti squash spinach string beans summer squash turnip greens turnips water chestnuts watercress zucchini zucchini flowers In addition to the above, you should keep the following in mind: • Onions are high in carbohydrate and should only be used in small amounts for flavoring—small amounts of chives or shallots can pack a lot of flavor. • One-half small avocado contains about 6 grams of carbohydrate. • One cup mixed green salad without carrots and with a single slice of tomato or onion has about the same impact on blood sugars as 6 grams of carbohydrate. • One-quarter cup mashed pumpkin contains about 6 grams of carbohydrate. My own opinion is that without some flavoring, pumpkin tastes about as appetizing as Kleenex. Therefore I flavor it with much stevia and spice (cinnamon) and warm it to make it a bit like pumpkin pie filling. (For other vegetables from this list, such as turnips, assume that ¼ cup of the mashed product contains 6 grams of carbohydrate.) Jennifer ha scritto: > But here's a list of just some of the non-animal foods Bernstein says > you can and should eat: > > Vegetables > Most vegetables, other than those listed in the No-No section, are > acceptable. I wouldn't count carbs in vegetables. Vegetables are known as "negative calorie" foods. It means that they provide less calories than you need to digest them. All the carbs in vegetables are just used to digest the vegetables you're eating and so they have no effect for other physiological processes The rule of vegetables that the more you eat the more your lose is so true that during a prolonged period of starvation you would die sooner from eating vegetables and drinking water than drinking water alone. In fact no one would ever goes out from ketosis by eating vegetables unless they're blended On the low carb active forums there are people who after realizing "they" personally need more carbs to sustain thir physical activity and not blank out during workout increase their carb intake through vegetables consumption and they lament that nothing changed even if they was able to add 30g of carbs by consuming carrots, tomatoes, kale and so on. Greens are even more negative calorie food than other vegetables David My response to you was because you said that Bernstein was virtually a meat only food plan. It is clearly not. And the idea of "negative calorie" foods is bunk. What was your aunt/uncle's last A1c? What numbers is he/she getting post meals? Jennifer > Jennifer ha scritto: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > David Jennifer ha scritto: > My response to you was because you said that Bernstein was virtually a > meat only food plan. > > It is clearly not. That's because I was counting by amount of calories, virtually all calories come from animal foods. > And the idea of "negative calorie" foods is bunk. I thought it was a well documented fact: digestion requires calories but the calories requires to digest a food is not the same for all foods. Food particularly high in fiber requires more calories to be digested and the food itself can't provide those calories I was referring to Neal Barnard book but it seems that while the theory is plausible there are no direct studies to back it up or in other words no one know how much calories the body requires to digest high fibrous foods. I read somewhere an exact math like 1.25 calorie to digest a carrot who provide 4 calories so there are still 2.75 calories left. I don't believe calories are exact maths anyway, and I agree with those low carbers who began questioning how can wem claim that the food burner on calorimeter bomb are burned in the same way and with the same efficiency within the body Okay, no evidence the negative calories theory is true but empirically I've never seen a low carber who couldn't sustain an active lifestyle while on a very low carb diet getting the additional carbs required from vegetables even if the math was exact. 20 grams of carbs from tomatoes, veggies, zucchini, asparagus didn't made a difference but 20 grams of carbs from whole grains, legumes, fruits or milk did made a difference That's the reason I tend not to count carbs in vegetables and greens they seem to be ignored by my body anyway. > What was your aunt/uncle's last A1c? What numbers is he/she getting > post meals? I will ask her when I see her, all I know is that she is in a dangerous situation sick as hell and reserved so it will be hard to convince her to give a chance to a diet/lifestyle change In fact I got the idea to help her when I was told by my cousin she is getting worse day by day, I've never knew anything about her condition before David |Jennifer ha scritto: | [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] |That's because I was counting by amount of calories, virtually all |calories come from animal foods. Bull. :: Jennifer ha scritto: :: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] :: kale and so on. :: Greens are even more negative calorie food than other vegetables Oh my..... > I wouldn't count carbs in vegetables. Vegetables are known as "negative > calorie" foods. > It means that they provide less calories than you need to digest them. ROFL! Susan :: x-no-archive: yes :: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] :: :: Susan I wonder if he thinks of a potato as a vegetable. Davide ha scritto: Sua tia legge l'inglese? E' molto giovane.. As you can see, I learning Italian....new words everyday... The cliche Rome wasn't built in a day....small steps..dietary changes are easier to maintain and gentler on the body if done in a gradual manner.. Sounds as if you intelligently question the doctor's judgment, and if so get a second opinion. Something makes you less than satisfied with his recommendation and judgments. Make a list of your questions and ask the doctor his opinion. There is no need to go to any doctor who advice you're not going to follow anyways.. Dr. Bernstein is not a main stream,typical American Diabetic doctor by any means.. Check out Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, Joslin or ADA sites for main stream diabetic care.. The info provide here is primarily anecdotal...I believe, some of the folks here have researched diabetes quite thoroughly. In my humble opinion, if your aunt ,a new diabetic at the age of 45 requires insulin to control her diabetes, she must first listen to her doctor...Possibly with time, experience and education, she and you can apply anecdotal info.. slow down...take it easy...small steps..she must be allow to grieve and maybe be angry or spiritual over the diagnosis of diabetes or any chronic illness. > I wouldn't count carbs in vegetables. Vegetables are known as "negative > calorie" foods. Not all of them, no. And a diabetic starts with the acceptable list and *tests* against their blood meter. Different people have different reactions. It doesn't matter what is theoretical, it matters what actually happens to one's own blood glucose. You have to test to find that out. My diet is primarily vegetables and I have lots of energy. Way more than when eating carbs. Most of my energy comes from the fat in my diet, not from carbs. When your bg is out-of-control, you're weak. The glucose is there in your blood, but it doesn't get inside your cells. You're tired, exhausted and hungry all the time because your cells are starving. Carbs do not provide energy for diabetics, but exhaust them and make them ill and weak. Wow, I'm glad that everyone found my post so interesting as the more replies the better My original intent was just this: my aunt is sick with a diabetes her physicians and endocrinologist can't keep under control; I've observed that high carb diets like Ornish usually play havoc with sugar metabolism and I was looking for something low carb about diabetes that my aunt could read to take finally care of her deadly problem. As I said she's not going to take my words for it and will only give a different diet and lifestyle a chance if she reads it in a book or validated nutritional program. No matter what, the allopathic doctors whose hands she's putting her life in are just going to ask her to consume and high carb diet and take her pills. When I looked for dietary guidelines my aunt could follow I came across Dr Bernstein Diebetes Solution but it didn't convince me. Many here have repeated in this thread that Dr Bernstein diet control insulin levels by decreasing the consumption of foods that requires insulin or cause an insulin spike This is an old and wrong notion: it's not just carb foods that cause an insulin spike you may eliminate all food containing a minimal trace of carbs eating just fish, meat and eggs and still have insulin over the roof and this is a problem for diabetics as much as high BGs are. I will check my reference again as someone said there was a problem tracing it, I know it's just one study but you must also consider that no one before had the good idea to check the actual insulin produced and required by the body when a food was eaten, it was guessing founded on the incomplete belief that only food containing manny carbs could result in a massive production of insulin. I'm sorry but Dr Bernstein success with his diet doesn't prove much as we know we can find people who had success with all kinds of diet, that's the only reason I mentioned Pritikin. I don't consider is diet healthy with all the nonsense about the danger of cholesterol, the unsubstantiated fear of necessary fat and the focus on potatoes, pasta and so on. But he saved his life with that diet. That's just to say that one anecdotal personal success doesn't make a rule that can be applied to everyone I agree with Jennifer point of view that eventually each diet must be personalized and even for people with sugar metabolism problem there are different degree of glucose tolerance. If Jennifer had written a book it would be easier to convince my aunt. I was also suggested an alternative book to Dr Bernstein plan and I will take a look at it. As for PETA & Company, I'm not in any way affiliated with them. You could trance my posting history over the net through my isp and you will see that I've always supported a low carb diet, which is the diet I'm following right now and I've researched in Paleolithic diets and SCD diet as well. I've no agenda, except the semipresumptuos belief that I could be the one saving the life of my aunt. It's true I have a problem with a diet that is mostly meat, eggs, butter and fish Even though I'm on a low carb diet and I know that cholesterol and fats are not demons I'm not a fan of super low carbs diet and I don't believe the agenda behind the meat and egg diet: claiming that we're carnivorous animals that should be eat nothing but animal foods like a tiger ignoring all the plant/gathering characteristics of our body. As I believe we have both animal food eating and plant eating characteristics and hence we're omnivorous and only because we're omnivorous we spread all over the world and could choose from the widest dietary spectrum, while both carnivorous and herbivorous are more depedent on a limited environment and could never adapt to such different climate, lifestyle, environmentes as we did I don't believe we should eat healthwise as carnivores and I'm wary of diets where virtually all calories are provided by animal foods. Even Sears diet can be considered low carb compared to maintream diaetary guidelines as there are debated between zoners and atkins followers so I don't believe that my antipathy for meat and egg diets is enough to make me a traitor of the low carb lifestyle or an activist with some hidden agenda, as if I had the time for stupid games like that I don't agree that many small meals is an outdated advice of the ADA just for high carb eaters. First of all is not an orthodox mainstream advice and more studies showing the huge impact small frequent meals have on health have been published just recently and last time I checked all mainstream nutritional associations like ADA, USDA, AHA whatever were suggesting three big meals. There's nothing healthy nor natural in getting all the nutrients we need through three big meals and no kind of primate eat in that way. The impact of eating small meal thorough the day still applies to a low carb diet. I don't know why I've been answered that in a low carb diet the body is fueled by ketones but it is not true as low carb doesn't mean 0 carbs or very low carbs necessarily, many are in a low carb diet without being on ketosis and people who have a very active lifestyle often go out of ketosis by increasing their carb intake of a dozen of grams I still believe that there can't be health without a lean muscular body with a low fat mass and the impact of small frequent meals is so important for those who exercise that I've never seen a very active low carber eating three big meal, even if the diet is just eggs and butter. As for believing everyone, I don't believe everyone actually I'm honrest enough to admit that I've already made my mind up. What I was looking for is a plan that reflects my mind organized and published in a book as between me and a book my aunt will always choose to listen to the book. I will take as a compliment that you thought I was that smart to create a post to advance my "agenda" in such a subtle way Hey Kit, good luck for your language lessons. If you have whatever question or you're not sure of certain words or sentences don't esitate to email me (the email I'm using is my true working email, for those that don't believe me you can send me insults by email and you'll see you won't be ignored :p) You're doing great Dico sul serio, di qualsiasi cosa tu abbia bisogno sarò felice di aiutarti Thanks for all your replies David : Wow, I'm glad that everyone found my post so interesting as the more : replies the better For someone with poor english, you sure write a lot. : My original intent was just this: my aunt is sick with a diabetes her : physicians and endocrinologist can't keep under control; I've observed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : insulin levels by decreasing the consumption of foods that requires : insulin or cause an insulin spike : This is an old and wrong notion: it's not just carb foods that cause : an insulin spike you may eliminate all food containing a minimal : trace of carbs eating just fish, meat and eggs and still have insulin : over the roof and this is a problem for diabetics as much as high BGs : are. What makes you so sure it's an old and wrong notion? It's not according to my meter. the fact is, diabetics aren't all the same. what happens in response to food eaten depends strongly on the remaining function in the pancreas. For most T2s, protein foods aren't a problem at all. You keep talking about insulin over the roof - well if that were the case than many of us would be falling out due to hypos. Where you're getting this notion frankly beyond me. Do you suppose yourself to be a doctor or medical researcher? How do you know what will and won't work for your aunt if you don't try? : I will check my reference again as someone said there was a problem : tracing it, I know it's just one study but you must also consider that : no one before had the good idea to check the actual insulin produced : and required by the body when a food was eaten, it was guessing : founded on the incomplete belief that only food containing manny : carbs could result in a massive production of insulin. You really should check that cite, as I could not pull it down. I think it's very likely that you're simply misinterpreting what you're read there. : I'm sorry but Dr Bernstein success with his diet doesn't prove much as : we know we can find people who had success with all kinds of diet, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : that one anecdotal personal success doesn't make a rule that can be : applied to everyone Well, it not just one anecdotal personal success. The man treats patients, too. Why don't you check out www.diabetesincontrol.com : I agree with Jennifer point of view that eventually each diet must be : personalized and even for people with sugar metabolism problem there : are different degree of glucose tolerance. : If Jennifer had written a book it would be easier to convince my aunt. : I was also suggested an alternative book to Dr Bernstein plan and I : will take a look at it. There are several books and frankly, I think your attitude is likely to be unhealthful. You're talking to people who have control - good control at that, yet you're inventing issues. : As for PETA & Company, I'm not in any way affiliated with them. You : could trance my posting history over the net through my isp and you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : It's true I have a problem with a diet that is mostly meat, eggs, : butter and fish See...this bullshit is the kind of thing that will get you a lousy response. LCers don't eat diets that are mostly meat, eggs, butter and fish, and your insisting of such, repeatedly, makes you seem like a PETA troll. : Even though I'm on a low carb diet and I know that cholesterol and : fats are not demons I'm not a fan of super low carbs diet and I don't : believe the agenda behind the meat and egg diet: claiming that we're : carnivorous animals that should be eat nothing but animal foods like a : tiger ignoring all the plant/gathering characteristics of our body. Why in the hell are you discussing this here? As : I believe we have both animal food eating and plant eating : characteristics and hence we're omnivorous and only because we're [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] : activist with some hidden agenda, as if I had the time for stupid : games like that PETA Troll. : I don't agree that many small meals is an outdated advice of the ADA : just for high carb eaters. First of all is not an orthodox mainstream : advice and more studies showing the huge impact small frequent meals : have on health have been published just recently and last time I : checked all mainstream nutritional associations like ADA, USDA, AHA : whatever were suggesting three big meals. Define big. If you want to graze, go ahead. : There's nothing healthy nor natural in getting all the nutrients we : need through three big meals and no kind of primate eat in that way. prove it? Some animals eat once a day. : The impact of eating small meal thorough the day still applies to a : low carb diet. if it helps a person to stick to a diet by eating frequent small meals, fine. If not, fine. You nor anyone else can prove jack about which is better. Some can eat once a day and do just fine. : I don't know why I've been answered that in a low carb diet the body : is fueled by ketones but it is not true as low carb doesn't mean 0 : carbs or very low carbs necessarily, many are in a low carb diet : without being on ketosis and people who have a very active lifestyle : often go out of ketosis by increasing their carb intake of a dozen of : grams So? : I still believe that there can't be health without a lean muscular : body with a low fat mass and the impact of small frequent meals is so : important for those who exercise that I've never seen a very active : low carber eating three big meal, even if the diet is just eggs and : butter. Very active people have different fueling needs than less active people. If you're not in that catagory, then why apply what works for them to you. Is your aunt very active? : As for believing everyone, I don't believe everyone actually I'm : honrest enough to admit that I've already made my mind up. What I was : looking for is a plan that reflects my mind organized and published in : a book as between me and a book my aunt will always choose to listen : to the book. Good grief. Write your own damn book then. : I will take as a compliment that you thought I was that smart to : create a post to advance my "agenda" in such a subtle way Or are you saying you have an agenda? In the meantime, your aunt will continue to suffer. Simply getting her on a low carb diet would likely help, depending of course, how much damage has already been done. : Hey Kit, good luck for your language lessons. If you have whatever : question or you're not sure of certain words or sentences don't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : Thanks for all your replies : David > What makes you so sure it's an old and wrong notion? It's not according to > my meter. the fact is, diabetics aren't all the same. what happens in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of us would be falling out due to hypos. Where you're getting this notion > frankly beyond me. He's referring to a study that found that protein foods had a higher index than carb foods. No one else has proposed his absurd interpretations, however. The only type twos who have to worry about hypos are badly managed ones on beta stimulators or insulin and the wrong diet. Susan Roger Zoul ha scritto: > : Wow, I'm glad that everyone found my post so interesting as the more > : replies the better > > For someone with poor english, you sure write a lot. I'm doing better than you as even though english is not my native language I've enough arguments to avoid resorting to silly attack or quoting whole paragraphs just to reply with poor insults, like you do. > : My original intent was just this: my aunt is sick with a diabetes her > : physicians and endocrinologist can't keep under control; I've observed [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > What makes you so sure it's an old and wrong notion? It's not according to > my meter. You can check your insulin levels by reading your glucose levels, you don't know your insulin levels you just guess them. The correlation is not exact and hyperinsulinemia alone can lead to health problems not necessarily predicted by BGs. > the fact is, diabetics aren't all the same. what happens in > response to food eaten depends strongly on the remaining function in the > pancreas. For most T2s, protein foods aren't a problem at all. You keep > talking about insulin over the roof - well if that were the case than many > of us would be falling out due to hypos. As I said I'm on a low carb myself and hypoglycemic but I'm not sure how good you're doing is an evidence the diet works for everyone. Jennifer mentioned how people are controlling their blood sugar with high carb diets. I don't agree with the theories behind the high carb diets but should I let the success of those keeping their diabetes under control with those diet convince me they're the best wat to eat and the ones I should adopt > Where you're getting this notion > frankly beyond me. Do you suppose yourself to be a doctor or medical > researcher? How do you know what will and won't work for your aunt if you > don't try? I was just looking for something different than Bernstein and still low carb. It's my aunt that must try not I and she won't be convinced by my words without some kind of prepacked plan she can read about on a book. > : I will check my reference again as someone said there was a problem > : tracing it, I know it's just one study but you must also consider that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You really should check that cite, as I could not pull it down. I think > it's very likely that you're simply misinterpreting what you're read there. Holt. et all Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Nov;66(5):1264-76 PMID: 9356547 > : I'm sorry but Dr Bernstein success with his diet doesn't prove much as > : we know we can find people who had success with all kinds of diet, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Well, it not just one anecdotal personal success. The man treats > patients, too. Why don't you check out www.diabetesincontrol.com Sorry but I learned to care for facts. Ever seen the success page of Body For Life program? Well, read their forums and you will see the insuccess rate is even higher. Pritikin has a page with lot of success stories in reversing diabetes. Let me repeat this: I don't think Pritikin diet is an healthy one and I would never try that kind of low-fat semi-vegetarian diet but if every plan has a success rate in treating patients and tons of success testimonials and yet some of those plans are not healthy and too strict and nutritionally inadequate, that should suggest to us all that the success rate in treating patients and real testimonials are not an evidence of how healthy a diet is > : I agree with Jennifer point of view that eventually each diet must be > : personalized and even for people with sugar metabolism problem there [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > unhealthful. You're talking to people who have control - good control at > that, yet you're inventing issues Better to be safe than be sorry If someone tells you that Pritikin reversed his sugar metabolism disfunction would jump on the Pritikin wagon just because you have a page on their site full of success testimonials? Would you call trolls anyone who prefers to think thoroughly and want analize the controversies before giving it a try. Would you say "wait a minute, I know you're keeping your diabetes under control by eating nothing but pretzel and noodles but there are several evidences that point out there may be a fault in your science" or your would rather say "gee, all I need to know is that it is working for you, maybe I should try to eat nothing but rice cake and see what happens?" Health is not a religion, there's no faith just facts. I didn't take Pritikin words as gospel (thanks god) and I won't take Bernstein words or whatever testimonial success page as gospel. This is the only reason I'm wary and I'm asking and questioning. I'm questioned everyday about my diet and exercise routine why I don't eat grains, why I don't eat legumes, why I eat so many eggs and salmon and I never take offence, it's a challenge if I know I can be questioned and yet answer with calm and serenity I know I'm on the right path. Above all, I don't assume everyone who question me is some real-life troll trying to convert me to his or her agenda. > : As for PETA & Company, I'm not in any way affiliated with them. You > : could trance my posting history over the net through my isp and you [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Why in the hell are you discussing this here? Because you accused me to have a PETA agenda when I said that I don't like diets devoid of plant foods. I wanted to explain why. I don't like the all animal foods diets and the assumptions behind them. This isn't about Bernsteain, this is about your insulting. If I say that I think that diet of just fish, eggs and meat are healthy maybe I'm less of a PETA troll for you? Well, this isn't going to happen, it's my personal taste and belief. I don't like diet devoid of plant foods like Homo Optimus for example. > As > : I believe we have both animal food eating and plant eating [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > prove it? Some animals eat once a day. I said primate, you're not a tiger, you're not a lion, you're not a condor. > : The impact of eating small meal thorough the day still applies to a > : low carb diet. > > if it helps a person to stick to a diet by eating frequent small meals, > fine. If not, fine. You nor anyone else can prove jack about which is > better. Some can eat once a day and do just fine. Studies can prove it somehow, of course they can't prove whether what works for someone will work for one another. We all agree I believe on this. > : I don't know why I've been answered that in a low carb diet the body > : is fueled by ketones but it is not true as low carb doesn't mean 0 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So? It was not directed at you. Someone replied that "on low carb your body is fueled by ketones" Nonsense, as low carbs are not necessarily ketogenic diets. Mind you, I'm not saying whether I like or dislike ketogenic diets just replying to the claim that all low carb diets are ketogenic diets. > : I still believe that there can't be health without a lean muscular > : body with a low fat mass and the impact of small frequent meals is so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you're not in that catagory, then why apply what works for them to you. Is > your aunt very active? I would like her to be. In fact, I think becoming very active is the only thing that will make whatever diet works for her. If she change her diet and she remains a coach potato nothing will really change, maybe she will control her BGs a little better but the pathological processes will keep destroying her body > : As for believing everyone, I don't believe everyone actually I'm > : honrest enough to admit that I've already made my mind up. What I was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Good grief. Write your own damn book then. I won't, that's why I asked for another low carb diabetes plan who is not alwyas and only Bernstein ;) > : I will take as a compliment that you thought I was that smart to > : create a post to advance my "agenda" in such a subtle way > > Or are you saying you have an agenda? In the meantime, your aunt will > continue to suffer. Simply getting her on a low carb diet would likely > help, depending of course, how much damage has already been done. To convince her to give a low carb diet a chance I must provide her organized info like a book or a plan but she will care only as long as it is specific about diebetes. She won't care about Protein Power for example or Neanderthin. I know there's Bernstein. I could have simply said that I don't like Bernstein approach but I was honest to enough to explain my reason and you're of course free to disagree or keep insulting me. Since I don't like Bernstein I was looking for an alternative David :: Roger Zoul ha scritto: :: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] :: quoting whole paragraphs just to reply with poor insults, like you :: do. Quoting whole paragraphs, as you just did? :::: My original intent was just this: my aunt is sick with a diabetes :::: her physicians and endocrinologist can't keep under control; I've [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] :: :: You can check your insulin levels by reading your glucose levels, How? you :: don't know your insulin levels you just guess them. No, I don't even do that. :: The correlation is not exact and hyperinsulinemia alone can lead to :: health problems not necessarily predicted by BGs. What problems? ::: the fact is, diabetics aren't all the same. what happens in ::: response to food eaten depends strongly on the remaining function [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: As I said I'm on a low carb myself and hypoglycemic but I'm not sure :: how good you're doing is an evidence the diet works for everyone. Who said it worked for everyone? It works for many. Other can withstand higher carb levels, and still other don't mind letting the BGs level rise higher. There is a broad spectrum at work. :: Jennifer mentioned how people are controlling their blood sugar with :: high carb diets. Most of them eat small portions, IMO. I don't agree with the theories behind the high carb :: diets but should I let the success of those keeping their diabetes :: under control with those diet convince me they're the best wat to eat :: and the ones I should adopt No, but a lot depends on what your comfort zone, what your carb tolerence is, and how high you're willing to let your BG rise. ::: Where you're getting this notion ::: frankly beyond me. Do you suppose yourself to be a doctor or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: I was just looking for something different than Bernstein and still :: low carb. Did you try the Atkins Diabetes book? It's my aunt that must try not I and she won't be :: convinced by my words without some kind of prepacked plan she can :: read about on a book. Okay. How you do know she can't follow Bernstein? At the very least, it might help her gain control. :::: I will check my reference again as someone said there was a problem :::: tracing it, I know it's just one study but you must also consider [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] :: :: Holt. et all Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Nov;66(5):1264-76 PMID: 9356547 Thanks, I found it. I'll read it later. :::: I'm sorry but Dr Bernstein success with his diet doesn't prove :::: much as we know we can find people who had success with all kinds [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] :: :: Sorry but I learned to care for facts. Do facts = truth? How do you know that facts are facts, and not just some information? Ever seen the success page of :: Body For Life program? Well, read their forums and you will see the :: insuccess rate is even higher. Do you expect to find something that works for everyone? What you need is something that works for your aunt. :: Pritikin has a page with lot of success stories in reversing :: diabetes. Let me repeat this: I don't think Pritikin diet is an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :: treating patients and real testimonials are not an evidence of how :: healthy a diet is Well, I would bet that those people are necessarily unhealthy....if that way of eating works for them, that more power to them. Do you have evidence that they are being harmed by their diets? :::: I agree with Jennifer point of view that eventually each diet must :::: be personalized and even for people with sugar metabolism problem [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] :: :: Better to be safe than be sorry ?? Can you truly know? :: If someone tells you that Pritikin reversed his sugar metabolism :: disfunction would jump on the Pritikin wagon just because you have a :: page on their site full of success testimonials? :: Would you call trolls anyone who prefers to think thoroughly and want :: analize the controversies before giving it a try. No, but I would call someone a troll who mischaracterizes a diet plan repeatedly, after being corrected. Would you say :: "wait a minute, I know you're keeping your diabetes under control by :: eating nothing but pretzel and noodles but there are several :: evidences that point out there may be a fault in your science" or :: your would rather say "gee, all I need to know is that it is working :: for you, maybe I should try to eat nothing but rice cake and see :: what happens?" None of this makes any sense in this discussion. :: Health is not a religion, Are you sure? :: there's no faith just facts. Are you sure? I didn't take :: Pritikin words as gospel (thanks god) and I won't take Bernstein :: words or whatever testimonial success page as gospel. This is the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: can be questioned and yet answer with calm and serenity I know I'm :: on the right path. You never know the right path...you just know a path that works for you. Above all, I don't assume everyone who question :: me is some real-life troll trying to convert me to his or her agenda. Again, you were called a troll because you repeated characterized the diet as a "meat and eggs" only diet. perhaps you should read what you wrote. :::: As for PETA & Company, I'm not in any way affiliated with them. You :::: could trance my posting history over the net through my isp and you [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] :: Because you accused me to have a PETA agenda when I said that I don't :: like diets devoid of plant foods. None of us REAL low carbers eat diets devoid of plant foods. if you continue to make such statements you'll just get called a PETA troll again. I wanted to explain why. I don't :: like the all animal foods diets and the assumptions behind them. Even Pelao isn't all animal foods. :: This isn't about Bernsteain, this is about your insulting. What about your insulting? :: If I say that I think that diet of just fish, eggs and meat are :: healthy maybe I'm less of a PETA troll for you? Well, this isn't :: going to happen, it's my personal taste and belief. I don't like :: diet devoid of plant foods like Homo Optimus for example. Fine. I don't like a diet devoid of plant foods either. ::: As :::: I believe we have both animal food eating and plant eating [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] :: I said primate, you're not a tiger, you're not a lion, you're not a :: condor. I don't consider myself to be a primate either. :::: The impact of eating small meal thorough the day still applies to a :::: low carb diet. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] :: :: I would like her to be. You can't make her be. That's her choice. In fact, I think becoming very active is the :: only thing that will make whatever diet works for her. That could be true or not. If she change :: her diet and she remains a coach potato nothing will really change, :: maybe she will control her BGs a little better but the pathological :: processes will keep destroying her body It depends....if she can keep normal BGs she might be fine. :::: As for believing everyone, I don't believe everyone actually I'm :::: honrest enough to admit that I've already made my mind up. What I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :: I won't, that's why I asked for another low carb diabetes plan who is :: not alwyas and only Bernstein ;) Well, you were given several. :::: I will take as a compliment that you thought I was that smart to :::: create a post to advance my "agenda" in such a subtle way [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] :: to disagree or keep insulting me. :: Since I don't like Bernstein I was looking for an alternative Give her Bernstein and the others, and let her decide. you don't need to come here and spur untruth crap, in the meantime. Roger Zoul ha scritto: > :: Roger Zoul ha scritto: > :: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Quoting whole paragraphs, as you just did? Exactly, the difference being I quoted them to reply, the best I could, not to resort to silly two words attacks and insults > :::: My original intent was just this: my aunt is sick with a diabetes > :::: her physicians and endocrinologist can't keep under control; I've [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > :: The correlation is not exact and hyperinsulinemia alone can lead to > :: health problems not necessarily predicted by BGs. The diet may limit the work of the pancres and insulin This doesn't mean they're not still overworking because of insentivity The body adapts to all situations and it takes years to see the result of pathological processes began earlier. Think about carrying a weight which is really really too heavy for you, everyone will see the effect of this practice. Let's say the weight is reduced by 1/3 you will feel like you can carry it without problems if you had a schedule to respect everything will seem fine and since you're delivering what you're carrying the weight in time it may seem like you've found the right weight your body can handle. This doesn't mean that the weight is still too heavy and is slowly damaging your skeleton and organs even if you can still deliver it in time. That's why I agree with those medical researchers that claim that keeping BGs under control is just half the diabetes control equation and normal BGs after a period of very high BGs may still hidden pathological processes and pancreas overworking. > ::: the fact is, diabetics aren't all the same. what happens in > ::: response to food eaten depends strongly on the remaining function [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Did you try the Atkins Diabetes book? No, I will take a look, thanks > It's my aunt that must try not I and she won't be > :: convinced by my words without some kind of prepacked plan she can > :: read about on a book. > > Okay. How you do know she can't follow Bernstein? At the very least, it > might help her gain control. It seems unecessarily extreme to me, especially for someone like her who would never thought of low carb diets as a solution if I didn't mention them > :::: I will check my reference again as someone said there was a problem > :::: tracing it, I know it's just one study but you must also consider [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Thanks, I found it. I'll read it later. You should look for the whole study as I did not just the abstract and conclusions > :::: I'm sorry but Dr Bernstein success with his diet doesn't prove > :::: much as we know we can find people who had success with all kinds [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Do facts = truth? How do you know that facts are facts, and not just some > information? You have a point there > Ever seen the success page of > :: Body For Life program? Well, read their forums and you will see the > :: insuccess rate is even higher. > > Do you expect to find something that works for everyone? What you need is > something that works for your aunt. Yes, I meant to say that just because it works for many people it doesn't mean it will work for her. In other words: what's the use of success testimonials and anedcotal evidence or everything written in his site? > :: Pritikin has a page with lot of success stories in reversing > :: diabetes. Let me repeat this: I don't think Pritikin diet is an [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of eating works for them, that more power to them. Do you have evidence > that they are being harmed by their diets? No, just logic tells me. Like you need certain elements and the diet is deficient in those elecements on the paper itself. And also just because they're keeping their BGs under control it doesn't mean the body is masking the pathological processes > :::: I agree with Jennifer point of view that eventually each diet must > :::: be personalized and even for people with sugar metabolism problem [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > ?? Can you truly know? I think so, waiting few days to really what you're going to do before trying will never postpone the benefits of the cure so much to be too late, but trying in unawareness could result in something unreversible > :: If someone tells you that Pritikin reversed his sugar metabolism > :: disfunction would jump on the Pritikin wagon just because you have a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No, but I would call someone a troll who mischaracterizes a diet plan > repeatedly, after being corrected. I never did it. I said I don't like meat and eggs diets, it doesn't mean that Bernstein diet is a meat and egg diet. > Would you say > :: "wait a minute, I know you're keeping your diabetes under control by [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > None of this makes any sense in this discussion. It makes sense because you asked me to read the site and see the people this guy is helping. Anecdotal evidences even in an official website don't mean anything and don't say anything about the value and healthfulness of a diet, that's what I tried to say There's nothing more healthier than questioning everything that could be questioned and see if the answers make sense or unmask the shortcoming and contradictions of what you're questioning. > :: Health is not a religion, > > Are you sure? It's not for me at least > :: there's no faith just facts. > > Are you sure? Actually no, all studies are too limited to represent facts. The effect of something on a selected and small group of people is not a fact, it's a fact just for those people > I didn't take > :: Pritikin words as gospel (thanks god) and I won't take Bernstein [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Again, you were called a troll because you repeated characterized the diet > as a "meat and eggs" only diet. perhaps you should read what you wrote. You misunderstood me I wasn't calling Bernstein diet a "meat and eggs" diet I was just saying that since I don't tend to like diets that provide virtually all calories from animal foods I tend not to like Bernstein diet either, just like I don't like Homo Optimus. I know it is not a meat and egg diet and vegetables are allowed > :::: As for PETA & Company, I'm not in any way affiliated with them. You > :::: could trance my posting history over the net through my isp and you [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > None of us REAL low carbers eat diets devoid of plant foods. if you > continue to make such statements you'll just get called a PETA troll again. I'm a low carber so I know what low carbers eat and I don't have to be reminded that often people consume more vegetables and low GI foods when they eat low carb than when they eat high carb. But low carb means a lot of thing, there are gurus suggesting a diet of just raw beef and nothing else calling lettuce a deadly poison and that's low carb too. There are several level of low carbing and I myself, even with sugar metabolism problems, prefer a diet who is little higher carb than Bernstein and that provides more calories from fruits. But now I want to understand: I said "I don't like diets devoid of plant foods" how that suddenly becomes to you "I don't like low carb diets or the diets people in this group are following as they are devoid of plant foods" ? Why being so defensive? > I wanted to explain why. I don't > :: like the all animal foods diets and the assumptions behind them. > > Even Pelao isn't all animal foods. Of course, but there are do diets devoid of plant food. There's a low carb guru who is suggesting a diet of raw beef and water, go figures. I just said I personally don't like those diet and I myself like diets with a bit more calories from plant foods than Bernstein's > :: This isn't about Bernsteain, this is about your insulting. > > What about your insulting? I never insulted you or at least I never used name calling with you. You quoting me just to reply with the word "troll" is more insulting than anything I've said > :: If I say that I think that diet of just fish, eggs and meat are > :: healthy maybe I'm less of a PETA troll for you? Well, this isn't > :: going to happen, it's my personal taste and belief. I don't like > :: diet devoid of plant foods like Homo Optimus for example. > > Fine. I don't like a diet devoid of plant foods either. That's what I said from the beginning. It's because you're so defensive that you understood I was somehow implying that low carb diets are devoid of plant foods. > ::: As > :::: I believe we have both animal food eating and plant eating [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > I don't consider myself to be a primate either. There are little doubts that's what you are. Just like bonobos are unique primates with unique characteristics humans are unique primates with unique characteristics. We're not more unique than others as to disappear from the animal kingdom group. > :::: The impact of eating small meal thorough the day still applies to a > :::: low carb diet. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > You can't make her be. That's her choice. I know but it's a choice based on whatever info she gets, if she will be convinced of the impact of exercising on decreasing BF, increasing glucose tolerance and keeping BGs under control, she will exercise. > In fact, I think becoming very active is the > :: only thing that will make whatever diet works for her. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It depends....if she can keep normal BGs she might be fine. I'm not that sure. She might keep normal BGs because of a less impact of sugars in her metabolism. But that doesn't mean the body is not overworking anyway to keep normal BGs while there's a glucose intolerance and insulin insentivity caused by high BF I remember reading in a syndrome X article that diabetes type 2 may actually be a survival response rather than a disease as it prevents people from becoming too fat (increasing their BF mass percentage) glucose intolerance and insulin insensitivity is what would prevent us from becoming "too heavy" and impair our cardiocircolatory system. According to that theory obese people who are diabetic have actually a body which is not smart enough to "closing the doors" in the cell membranas. That's another reason why exercise is thought to be so important and keeping normal BGs may not necessarily mean the body is sensitive again. It's like calcium levels, it's true that the p.h. of the blood never becomes too acidic even when there's an electrolytes deficiency but this is because the body is pulling calcium from the bones and teeth and decreasing its absorption from the gut. What appears as a normal condition of health because of the body abolity to maintain homeostasis and hidden pathological process is actually a body overwork and self-destruction. > :::: As for believing everyone, I don't believe everyone actually I'm > :::: honrest enough to admit that I've already made my mind up. What I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Well, you were given several. You suggested me Atkins for Diabetes and someone suggested me the Sugar Busters It's two. Well, it may be enough but the thread went on for other reasons I will definitely take a look at them > :::: I will take as a compliment that you thought I was that smart to > :::: create a post to advance my "agenda" in such a subtle way [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Give her Bernstein and the others, and let her decide. you don't need to > come here and spur untruth crap, in the meantime. Untruth crap like? Didn't you realize that my supposed attack on the low carb diets and lies about the lack of plant foods in the low carb diet were just figments of your imagination ? David > Sorry but I learned to care for facts. Ever seen the success page of > Body For Life program? Well, read their forums and you will see the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > success rate in treating patients and real testimonials are not an > evidence of how healthy a diet is Sorry, but I've read the available research on Pritikin, and the definition of "success" had diabetics with BG in ranges that were still high enough to be severely damaging. In fact, the reductions were very modest, and could be completely accounted for by reducted calories and increased activity. You have to read the actual data if you want to claim to be discerning about scientific research. Protein does NOT lead to hyperinsulinemia. I know what the insulin index showed, but every clinical study to look at the question has had opposite findings in practice. Susan Susan ha scritto: > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You have to read the actual data if you want to claim to be discerning > about scientific research. Thanks, that's interesting but I also know that there are controversies on what are healthy ranges. In fact I don't think there's a single accepted level range from serum cholesterol to ferritin > Protein does NOT lead to hyperinsulinemia. I know what the insulin > index showed, but every clinical study to look at the question has had > opposite findings in practice. And how this is explained, what is supposed to be the flaw of the Insulin Score? Thanks David > Thanks, that's interesting but I also know that there are controversies > on what are healthy ranges. In fact I don't think there's a single > accepted level range from serum cholesterol to ferritin There is no controversy about what level beta cell death begins to occur (100), or that over 140 leads to cellular and organ damage. There is good evidence for greatly increased risk of CVD with every point increase along what's considered the normal spectrum of fbg, for example. There is no controversy about the fact that peripheral neuropathy occurs often in IGT, which is allegedly pre-diabetic. >>Protein does NOT lead to hyperinsulinemia. I know what the insulin >>index showed, but every clinical study to look at the question has had >>opposite findings in practice. > > And how this is explained, what is supposed to be the flaw of the > Insulin Score? I didn't say that the insulin index is flawed, though that may or may not turn out to be the case. I said we know that in clinical practice and in well designed research studies, hyperinsulinemia and its symptoms are reduced when protein and fat are substituted for dietary carbohydrate. Susan >> And how this is explained, what is supposed to be the flaw of the >> Insulin Score? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and in well designed research studies, hyperinsulinemia and its symptoms >are reduced when protein and fat are substituted for dietary carbohydrate. Yes. Davide, keep in mind that you *never* base a whole theory on *one, single* study with results that contradict all the other studies. Unfortunately, there are lots of ways to design studies so that the results you see aren't really a function of what the researcher claims. Sometimes its accidental, sometimes not. There is a fair amount of data out there, as well as lots of personal experiences, indicating that the Holt study results are not consistent with the larger body of scientific evidence. For whatever reason. There are some low carbers who do get their insulin levels measured, from what I understand. I've heard from some with PCOS who have had that done, and have experienced significant drops in serum insulin after following low-carb diets for several months or more. Frankly, the only places I've ever seen that Holt study bandied about are vegetarian or vegan sites. And yes, I'll second Susan that Ornish, McDougall, Bernard - very low fat vegan diet advocates - do not get particularly good results with T2 diabetes. For even modest lowering of bg levels, it's necessary to eat hypocalorically, consistently and significantly. Unfortunately, because of the underlying high starting insulin levels associated with a T2's typical hyperinsulimia, and the stimulation of insulin response by a high carb intake, it is exceedingly difficult for most diabetics to stay on an Ornish-type program. At best they usually end up overeating carbs to the point that they do not lower bg levels to a safe zone. BTW, I'm pretty well convinced that friend Davide has successfully trolled the ng, but it did lead to an interesting discussion. HG :: BTW, I'm pretty well convinced that friend Davide has successfully :: trolled the ng, but it did lead to an interesting discussion. No question about it. Sometimes trolls actually help things! :) > Thanks, that's interesting but I also know that there are controversies > on what are healthy ranges. In fact I don't think there's a single > accepted level range from serum cholesterol to ferritin P.S. Re: Pritikin; read the studies. The modest results were no doubt attributable to lost weight and increased activity. Susan > As I said I'm on a low carb myself and hypoglycemic but I'm not sure > how good you're doing is an evidence the diet works for everyone. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > under control with those diet convince me they're the best wat to eat > and the ones I should adopt I thinbk you are misinterpreting Jennifer's post. I've read it many times in different newsgroups and websites and agree it is *wonderful* advice - diabetics should eat to their meters. While there is huge variation in what works for one person versus another in eating to their meters, I've never heard of anyone keeping their bg down by eating high carb. The variations are more along the lines of... one person can tolerate a small serving of brown rice, and another cannot, etc. This seems to indicate that research into things like glycemic index are general and that each person needs to be their own science experiment to find out what works for them. Some folks have reported stuff like that a single slice of a particularly high-fiber bread might work in their diet. I have never heard anyone report that eating high carb works though. > I was just looking for something different than Bernstein and still low > carb. It's my aunt that must try not I and she won't be convinced by my > words without some kind of prepacked plan she can read about on a book. I do not think Bernstein is useful for the prepacked plan, myself. I think Bernstein is useful for explaining in laymen's terms how diabetes works. That knowledge is useful in devising one's own plan - but the meter is what one uses to find out what works for them. > Better to be safe than be sorry > If someone tells you that Pritikin reversed his sugar metabolism > disfunction would jump on the Pritikin wagon just because you have a > page on their site full of success testimonials? If I tried it and got good bg control, fine. Trying it for a week or two would likely raise my bg too high, but doing so for a week or two would be unlikely to cause me to instantly develop diabetic complications. Two decades ago, I originally tried an ADA-like diet eating every 3 hours, even setting an alarm to get up and eat a muffin set next to the side of my bed. It didn't work. My bg stayed relatively even without a lot of high spikes, but it also stayed over 200. Having tried all the different supplements and ways of eating is how I got myself on the plan I'm on today which is 40-50 g carb (no starch or sugar included, and I don't tolerate legumes well), 100 g protein, and a huge amount of fat. > Would you call trolls anyone who prefers to think thoroughly and want > analize the controversies before giving it a try. Would you say "wait a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > say "gee, all I need to know is that it is working for you, maybe I > should try to eat nothing but rice cake and see what happens?" It wouldn't hurt to try... not for a couple weeks anwyays. Most diabetics eat so poorly and have such poor bg control that an experiment of this sort would be unlikely to do damage beyond doing nothing. > > Why in the hell are you discussing this here? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > happen, it's my personal taste and belief. I don't like diet devoid of > plant foods like Homo Optimus for example. But it's been pointed out to you repeatedly that Bernstein's diet calls for plant foods at every meal. So who the f.ck are you arguing this with anyways? > > : There's nothing healthy nor natural in getting all the nutrients we > > : need through three big meals and no kind of primate eat in that way. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I said primate, you're not a tiger, you're not a lion, you're not a > condor. To see what is happening to bg, you kind of need to eat hours apart. If you eat meal X and test at hour 1, hour 2, then eat meal Y... X is interfering with the readings you get for Y. During the experimental phase, discovering how various foods effect your bg, your meals need to be separated by 4 hours or more. After you discover what does and doesn't work for you, you can eat in a more grazing manner if you wish. > Studies can prove it somehow, of course they can't prove whether what > works for someone will work for one another. We all agree I believe on > this. Peter recently posted the diet he has been following. He has nothing but coffee for breakfast, almost no lunch, and takes in the majority of his calories at dinner. This is pretty much contrary to most diet advice... but it works for him. It isn't always entirely about health effects, but about developing a plan one will actually stick to - that works in one's life. Once upon a time, working a corporate job with lots of overtime I had to commute to, I ate Wendy's burgers nearly daily. Wendy's was the only drive through that had big enough chunks of lettuce for me to wrap the burger in. It wasn't the healthiest possible diet, or even the yummiest, my current diet is both healthier and tastier, but it worked to fit into my life at that time. This is why I eat small amounts of lower-carb fruits daily. It does not lower my bg to do this and even raises it a few points. But it's a diet I can live with long-term. Your diet, with lots of salmon, is *not* one I could live with. I don't like fish. It doesn't matter if fish is better for me, as I'd never stick to a diet with lots of fish. I do like flax meal in hot cereal, so get my "good" fats that way. That *does* work for me. But the basic principles remain - diabetes is a disease involving problems metabolising carbohydrate. Carbohydrate is going to have to be restricted to control diabetes. > It was not directed at you. Someone replied that "on low carb your body > is fueled by ketones" Nonsense, as low carbs are not necessarily > ketogenic diets. > Mind you, I'm not saying whether I like or dislike ketogenic diets just > replying to the claim that all low carb diets are ketogenic diets. If one wishes to get technical, *all* diets are ketogenic. The biochemical pathways that make ketonses are working whether you're on low carb or not. The ketones may not be easily detectable with over-the-counter methods, but they're still there. > I would like her to be. In fact, I think becoming very active is the > only thing that will make whatever diet works for her. If she change > her diet and she remains a coach potato nothing will really change, > maybe she will control her BGs a little better but the pathological > processes will keep destroying her body While being overweight and out-of-shape is unhealthy, it is much less so than having out-of-control bg. Furthermore, no one is going to be motivated to start an exercise regime with high bg. High bg makes you feel extremely lethargic. The glucose is unavailable to the cells, so you're permanently hungry. And you don't have energy. If the person is fat too, they're doing weight-lifting even when they walk from the couch to the fridge - the smallest activities are strenuous cause you're hauling all this extra weight around. All of this is addresed in Bernstein... he first emphasizes controlling bg, then addresses weight loss, and then addresses exercise. I'm not sure what your problem with him is as all your complaints about what is missing are not missing at all. Have you ever actually read Bernstein? > I won't, that's why I asked for another low carb diabetes plan who is > not alwyas and only Bernstein ;) Protein Power by the Eades. The FAQ of this newsgroup. And Atkins, of course. > To convince her to give a low carb diet a chance I must provide her > organized info like a book or a plan but she will care only as long as [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > disagree or keep insulting me. > Since I don't like Bernstein I was looking for an alternative What don't you like about Bernstein? The emphasis on the importance of testing your bg regularly? The low-carb diet? The emphasis on plant foods at every meal? The importance he places on weight loss? The exercise advice? If you want a different recommendation, you'd have to actually express what you don't like about Bernstein, which you haven't done yet. All your complaints are not relevant to what Bernstein actually says. >Dico sul serio, di qualsiasi cosa tu abbia bisogno sarò felice di :> aiutarti Sei molto gentile, Davide...grazie.. >my aunt is sick with a diabetes her > physicians and endocrinologist can't keep under control I can understand your frustrations and desire to help your aunt. Unfortunately, If your aunt is quite sick, she must follow the advice of her physicians and endocrinologists....Does she require dialysis? Does she have nonhealing ulcers? What problems if any with anhidrosis? Is she experiencing hyperosmolar nonketotic syndromes? Does she have a diminished adrenergic symptoms? Is her diabetes a secondary diagnosis? What other illnesses does she have? Sometimes, it takes months to stabilize a diabetic..and sometimes, even the most educated cannot stop the devastating cascade of diabetes into an early death.. Diet although important is not the only consideration. Continue to take care of your health. To.wish that a simple book with the "ideal diet" could be just the motivator ...well.... Does she want your help? If so, tell her your ideas, but more importantly listen to her ideas...good fortune..if she is not quite sick, then..non c'e' fretta.. The only real solution is to drop a nuke on Paris. You're welcome. Wow, I'm glad that everyone found my post so interesting as the more replies the better My original intent was just this: my aunt is sick with a diabetes her physicians and endocrinologist can't keep under control; I've observed that high carb diets like Ornish usually play havoc with sugar metabolism and I was looking for something low carb about diabetes that my aunt could read to take finally care of her deadly problem. As I said she's not going to take my words for it and will only give a different diet and lifestyle a chance if she reads it in a book or validated nutritional program. No matter what, the allopathic doctors whose hands she's putting her life in are just going to ask her to consume and high carb diet and take her pills. When I looked for dietary guidelines my aunt could follow I came across Dr Bernstein Diebetes Solution but it didn't convince me. Many here have repeated in this thread that Dr Bernstein diet control insulin levels by decreasing the consumption of foods that requires insulin or cause an insulin spike This is an old and wrong notion: it's not just carb foods that cause an insulin spike you may eliminate all food containing a minimal trace of carbs eating just fish, meat and eggs and still have insulin over the roof and this is a problem for diabetics as much as high BGs are. I will check my reference again as someone said there was a problem tracing it, I know it's just one study but you must also consider that no one before had the good idea to check the actual insulin produced and required by the body when a food was eaten, it was guessing founded on the incomplete belief that only food containing manny carbs could result in a massive production of insulin. I'm sorry but Dr Bernstein success with his diet doesn't prove much as we know we can find people who had success with all kinds of diet, that's the only reason I mentioned Pritikin. I don't consider is diet healthy with all the nonsense about the danger of cholesterol, the unsubstantiated fear of necessary fat and the focus on potatoes, pasta and so on. But he saved his life with that diet. That's just to say that one anecdotal personal success doesn't make a rule that can be applied to everyone I agree with Jennifer point of view that eventually each diet must be personalized and even for people with sugar metabolism problem there are different degree of glucose tolerance. If Jennifer had written a book it would be easier to convince my aunt. I was also suggested an alternative book to Dr Bernstein plan and I will take a look at it. As for PETA & Company, I'm not in any way affiliated with them. You could trance my posting history over the net through my isp and you will see that I've always supported a low carb diet, which is the diet I'm following right now and I've researched in Paleolithic diets and SCD diet as well. I've no agenda, except the semipresumptuos belief that I could be the one saving the life of my aunt. It's true I have a problem with a diet that is mostly meat, eggs, butter and fish Even though I'm on a low carb diet and I know that cholesterol and fats are not demons I'm not a fan of super low carbs diet and I don't believe the agenda behind the meat and egg diet: claiming that we're carnivorous animals that should be eat nothing but animal foods like a tiger ignoring all the plant/gathering characteristics of our body. As I believe we have both animal food eating and plant eating characteristics and hence we're omnivorous and only because we're omnivorous we spread all over the world and could choose from the widest dietary spectrum, while both carnivorous and herbivorous are more depedent on a limited environment and could never adapt to such different climate, lifestyle, environmentes as we did I don't believe we should eat healthwise as carnivores and I'm wary of diets where virtually all calories are provided by animal foods. Even Sears diet can be considered low carb compared to maintream diaetary guidelines as there are debated between zoners and atkins followers so I don't believe that my antipathy for meat and egg diets is enough to make me a traitor of the low carb lifestyle or an activist with some hidden agenda, as if I had the time for stupid games like that I don't agree that many small meals is an outdated advice of the ADA just for high carb eaters. First of all is not an orthodox mainstream advice and more studies showing the huge impact small frequent meals have on health have been published just recently and last time I checked all mainstream nutritional associations like ADA, USDA, AHA whatever were suggesting three big meals. There's nothing healthy nor natural in getting all the nutrients we need through three big meals and no kind of primate eat in that way. The impact of eating small meal thorough the day still applies to a low carb diet. I don't know why I've been answered that in a low carb diet the body is fueled by ketones but it is not true as low carb doesn't mean 0 carbs or very low carbs necessarily, many are in a low carb diet without being on ketosis and people who have a very active lifestyle often go out of ketosis by increasing their carb intake of a dozen of grams I still believe that there can't be health without a lean muscular body with a low fat mass and the impact of small frequent meals is so important for those who exercise that I've never seen a very active low carber eating three big meal, even if the diet is just eggs and butter. As for believing everyone, I don't believe everyone actually I'm honrest enough to admit that I've already made my mind up. What I was looking for is a plan that reflects my mind organized and published in a book as between me and a book my aunt will always choose to listen to the book. I will take as a compliment that you thought I was that smart to create a post to advance my "agenda" in such a subtle way Hey Kit, good luck for your language lessons. If you have whatever question or you're not sure of certain words or sentences don't esitate to email me (the email I'm using is my true working email, for those that don't believe me you can send me insults by email and you'll see you won't be ignored :p) You're doing great Dico sul serio, di qualsiasi cosa tu abbia bisogno sarò felice di aiutarti Thanks for all your replies David :: Roger Zoul ha scritto: :: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] :: specified but I guess is 90795% animal food and only 10/5% plant :: food. I find this hard to understand....it's not about the numbers of foods you can eat, but the quantity. It takes a lot of broccoli to get a significant amount of carbs. ::::: I'm actually afraid that Dr Bernstein diet could worsen the ::::: condition Dr Bernstein claims that the exclusion of all foods [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] :: insulin output and for type 1 the focus would be decreasing the :: amount of insulin needed to be injected Well, if a T1 produced no insulin and only gets it by injection, then what is the issue there? T2s are different, with produced insulin either not working or too little to control BG levels. It's doubtful there is too much insulin simply as a result of eating mostly animal food. ::::: Then why beef raises insulin more than rice? ::: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] :: when carbs are eaten, some even believe that no carbs = no insulin. :: But this is not true Yes, we know that protein is converted to glucose at a rate of 58%, so insulin will be produced on diets high in protein. But that process is slow and generally for T2s, is such that BG levels never get too high. ::::: It should be known so far that the author of the Glycemic Index ::::: realized the GI was not a good predictor of insulin output so he [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] ::::: food with meat and other animal foods may worsen the condition ::::: instead of improving it. :::: Holt SA et al Am J Clin Nutr 1997;66:1264-76 Are you sure about this cite? I can't pull this article. For one thing, 1997 is volume 30, not 66. There is no article that starts on page 1264, either. ::: This is a curious paragraph. I've been following a LC woe for ::: almost 5 years and have not seen any worsening of my T2 condition. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: high in foods that are believed to prevent insulin secretion and :: actually have rises insulin secretion more than sugar. You know, most foods such as beef are higher in fat than in protein... If someone :: believes that only carbs make the body produce insulin they would :: also believe that the solution to lower insulin secreation is eating :: just beef and nothing else. :: They think: beef = no carb = no insulin. :: This mode of thinking would instead produce opposite effect since :: beef rises insulin more than other high carbs food. Where are you getting this notion? From that one paper? Most beef is high in fat which only converts to glucose at 10% rate. :: It's a very easy to interpret study: low carb foods may rise insulin :: as high or even more than high carb food because it's physiologically [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: Only fats are neutral and can lower the insuling rising effect of :: high carb foods and high proteins foods. Animal foods are not 100% protein...most meats are fatty, unless you select the lean cuts. ::::: Dr Bernstein says that all low glycemic carb foods will raise ::::: postprandial glycemia in all diabetics and we just need to check [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] :: The same amount of food consumed in more regular small meals lowers :: glucose levels even more The question of what is big and small is what matters. A BIG meal that is too much food should be contrasted to a meal that is sufficient to fuel the body. Eating 3 sufficient meals that are low in carbs will not cause problems. Eating 3 BIG meals that result in overeating could. :: Besides this diet may indeed normalize BGs levels, but if it doesn't :: normalize insulin levels it's just half the solution it says to be I don't think any T1s eating this diet are going to produce too much insulin (or any)...and for T2s the conversion rate will be slow enough that the partly functioning pancreas can handle the load. Of course, overeating can cause it's own problems. ::::: If you are diabetics and have a glucometer just check the effect ::::: of eating 50 grams of pearled barley alone and 50 grams of pearled [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] :: and eggs diet and this is not true and I know people who have gained :: fat weight with those diets. Right. One can gain weight eating on a LC diet since a lot of protein will convert to glucose and drive the need for insulin. But that's not nearly as great as what happens if one eat just a little bit of carbs. Also, most people will find it hard to consistently overeat a diet high in fat and protein. ::::: Eating timing and carb timing is more important than banning this ::::: or that macronutrient from the diet and as a matter of fact the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] :: :: But there can't be health without exercising, being an option or not I don't think that is proven beyond normal day to day functioning. :: Even on low carb diets if there's not exercise the weight loss is :: mostly muscle and even a thin person may have a body which is mostly :: fat. There are studies which contradict this, I believe. As it is well know even a difference or 2% in fat mass :: percentage may decrease sugar and insuling sensitivity and this is :: matters even for those who don't consume carbs at all. :: This is why it is so important to exercise, because lowering BF :: percentage is the best way to increase insulin sensitivity and sugar :: sensitivity, losing weight without exercising often does not result :: in lowering BF percentage at all even if the weight drops Again, I don't believe this is proven at all. You're saying that the body eats it muscle if one loses weight without exercising, while sparing fat. I don't accept that for any diet that is sufficient in dietary protein. Dieting in generally will result in muscle loss, but those on a LC diet will generally have less muscle loss. Some studies have even found evidence of muscle GAIN on low carb diets. :: I don't think diabetes is a disease related to carbs alone and the :: evidence is that while eating food low in carbs may control blood :: gluose levels they don't appear to control insulin levels so well I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to support this claim of yours. What drives insulin levels so high? and :: people on meat and eggs diet may still have insulin spikes and :: hypoglycemia thereafter or sugar problems while population who [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: This is the only reason why while a low carber myself I'm wary of Dr :: Bernstein approach You do realize that Bernsteins is a T1 and has been for many, many years. He's also an MD. If his diet didn't work, I think he'd be dead by now. Also, he treats patients with his diet. If your claim was true, he'd be guilty of killing many of them. ::: When the body ::::: exercises and requires fuel it becomes more sensitive to glucose [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] :: carb gurus and books and it's an important point in keeping diabetes :: under control even if certain commercial books don't mention it Bernstein's diet is strict, even by LC standards. However, it won't worsen the diabetic condition. I think you've simply got some details mixed up. ::: effect of ::::: exercise and balanced small meals rather than Dr Bernstein diet? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] :: Thanks for the replies :: David Anyhow, you don't need to recommend Bernstein...Atkins or LC works just fine for many folks. |Well most plant foods are completely forbidden. That leaves very little |room for anything that is not animal food. A ratio is not specified but |I guess is 90795% animal food and only 10/5% plant food. OK, I had some suspicions when I first read your original post but gave you the benefit of the doubt. There was something that just ddn't make sense with your post. But now I understand, I'm convinced that you're an advocate for either PETA or one of the grain company promoters that we've been getting here lately. You not-to-subtley went from a "concern" for your aunt's diabetes to vegan/PETA's traditional argument against eating animal meat. It's not normally a coherent thought process. We're not dumb. In fact, your headers fit the profile exactly. Google post so can't be traced, Y yahoo e-mail address. Fits the pattern. What gives you away is that you've obviously done a tremendous amount of research and are very knowledgeable in the things you're discussing. You don't need to come to a low-carb diet newsgroup to get validation for the things you've obviously already decided, and then argue against eating meat once the answers to your questions are posted. Why bother? It a pretty slick new way of presenting the vegan/grain/macrobiotic/PETA point of view, but it's not as if it hasn't been done before here. Why not try alt.support.low-fat? They'll love you over there and you can swap all kinds of stories about cutting down on animal fats and increasing grains. But the diabetics will still be getting insulin spikes and crashes and will still lose their fingers, toes, kidneys and eventually hearts much faster than those of us diabetics following a low sugar, low starch way of eating. :: It a pretty slick new way of presenting the :: vegan/grain/macrobiotic/PETA point of view, but it's not as if it :: hasn't been done before here. Yes, and there appears to be a helper amist, too. :: It a pretty slick new way of presenting the :: vegan/grain/macrobiotic/PETA point of view, but it's not as if it :: hasn't been done before here. I'm a new poster to these sites..I didn't know what PETA was...as I re-read the postings and apparent confrontational questionings, your point seems valid..Or he could be just a frustrated nephew.."nipote" in Italian..trying to help his zia (aunt) Ha scritto is pretty basic..Italian 1..My Italian 2 summer classes start in one more week..So my posting times will be decreasing..just like my bg levels on a low carb diet.. Ciao... > :: It a pretty slick new way of presenting the > :: vegan/grain/macrobiotic/PETA point of view, but it's not as if it > :: hasn't been done before here. > > Yes, and there appears to be a helper amist, too. There seems to be a lot of clever "cranks" that invent odd stories that lead into some of the strangest discussions. This is one of the better ones of this type in the last month. Perhaps we could have a prize or award for this stuff. Signature1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book 2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book 3) Don't Diet Without Supplemental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins book 4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other) |> :: It a pretty slick new way of presenting the |> :: vegan/grain/macrobiotic/PETA point of view, but it's not as if it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | |Perhaps we could have a prize or award for this stuff. Great idea! Kind of like American Idol, we can call it American Troll. We can all vote and have a winner each month! |:: It a pretty slick new way of presenting the |:: vegan/grain/macrobiotic/PETA point of view, but it's not as if it |:: hasn't been done before here. | |Yes, and there appears to be a helper amist, too. Yeah, when somebody who's never posted here before starts off by asking a question like "Does anybody know a better alternative to ____?" as this guy did, it's invariable that not long after, their hand puppet (also never before seen on the NG) comes along with a seemingly innocent answer. The pattern is that sometimes it takes several posts by them to segue to whatever agenda they're pushing or whatever they're selling. But it invariable comes out. Just like bad politicians. As jbuch pointed out, this one is more intriguing than most and has a clever little twist to it. Will be interesting to follow and see what the punch line ultimately is. SignaturePeter <snip> > In fact, your headers fit the profile exactly. Google post so can't > be traced, Y yahoo e-mail address. Fits the pattern. <snip> Just an FYI....... Google posts can be traced quite easily. The OP is posting on a dial up connection through EASY-IP-TIWS, Telecom Italia S.p.A., Ancona, IT. I'm not saying the post is legit, just that it can be traced. Carry on. :o) > But there can't be health without exercising, being an option or not > Even on low carb diets if there's not exercise the weight loss is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sensitivity, losing weight without exercising often does not result in > lowering BF percentage at all even if the weight drops Bernstein addresses exercise at length, recommending it for everyone, so I'm unsure why you think it is ignored. Sometimes people *can't* exercise because of injury or such though. And quite frankly, if someone is severely overweight, it's difficult to do so until the weight starts coming off. > I don't think diabetes is a disease related to carbs alone and the > evidence is that while eating food low in carbs may control blood [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not genetics as when they move to US and eat a SAD american diet they > develop diabetes like everyone else. Diabetes is by definition a problem metabolizing carbohydrate. There's no getting around that. Also, your notion that there's no plant food is completly false. Bernstein recommends plant food at every single meal. The point is not avoiding plant foods, but avoiding the starchy ones. And generally speaking, the starchy ones have fewer nutrients than the non-starchy ones, so there's no real downside to eating non-starchy plants. It's not an animal-based diet. I have already confessed to not being on Bernstein per se, or Atkins, or Eades, or any of them. Rather I'm on a home-grown low-carb diet. The *bulk* of my diet by volume is plant foods, primarily vegetables, but some fruit too. If you measure by calories, my diet is primarily animal food, but most of what I eat is veggies. A typical day: Breakfast - 1/2 cup cottage cheese OR 1/4 cup ricotta cheese OR 2 TB cream cheese OR 3/4 cup yogurt 1/2 cup watermelon or honeydew or cantalope or strawberries or cranberries or blueberries hot cereal made with 3 TB flaxmeal, 3 TB protein powder, 1 TB lecithin heated with 2/3 cup water, then add a bit of cinnamon and heavy cream Lunch - 1 cup of butterhead lettuce, 1 cup of radicchio, 1/2 sliced cucumber, 1/2 sliced tomato, 1/2 diced onion, handful of alfalfa sprouts, 2 or 3 cloves of roasted garlic, a hard-boiled egg, a bit of grated cheese & 1 TB ranch salad dressing Dinner - 4 oz meat, 8 oz cooked vegetables, 1 TB butter, 2 TB herbs There's a few cups of coffee with heavy cream and sweetener throughout the day and lots of water too. I ate more meat before I was on low-carb, though less dairy, so the amount of animal foods probably came out about even. And while I ate more plant food, it was stuff like bread and potatoes, I ate nowhere near this amount of vegetables before low-carbing, so I get a lot more nutrition from my plant foods now. > Hello > My aunt is diabetic and I'm looking for an alternative to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > A lower carb approach is what I want to propose to her but I'm not > still sure what kind of diet The best diabetic food plan for your aunt... is her own personalized one. Here's the advice I give all those who want to get their glucose under control. Sounds like you're planning a move to take control of your diabetes... good for you. There is so much to absorb... you don't have to rush into anything. Begin by using your best weapon in this war, your meter. You won't keel over today, you have time to experiment, test, learn, test and figure out just how your body and this disease are getting along. The most important thing you can do to learn about yourself and diabetes is test test test. More than most anything, what you eat will affect your diabetes and your blood glucose numbers. And more than anything you eat, carbs will affect your diabetes and your blood glucose numbers. So, the most important information you can begin to compile about yourself, is how your body handles carbs. This sounds like you would need a low carb food plan right? You don't... what you need to uncover is YOUR Personalized Carb Number. Which actually works better for most everyone. Because low to one person is wildly high to another, but waaaaay too low for someone else. Is low carb less than 30g a day? Is it anything less than the Pyramid reccomendations? Finding your Personalized Carb Number is easy. Here's how you can figure out your own Personalized Carb Number. The single biggest question a diabetic has to answer is: What do I eat? Unfortunately, the answer is pretty confusing. What confounds us all is the fact that different diabetics can get great results on wildly different food plans. Some of us here achieve great blood glucose control eating a high complex carbohydrate diet. Others find that anything over 75 - 100g of carbs a day is too much. Still others are somewhere in between. At the beginning all of us felt frustrated. We wanted to be handed THE way to eat, to ensure our continued health. But we all learned that there is no one way. Each of us had to find our own path, using the experience of those that went before, but still having to discover for ourselves how OUR bodies and this disease were coexisting. Ask questions, but remember each of us discovered on our own what works best for us. You can use our experiences as jumping off points, but eventually you'll work up a successful plan that is yours alone. What you are looking to discover is how different foods affect you. As I'm sure you've read, carbohydrates (sugars, wheat, rice... the things our Grandmas called "starches") raise blood sugars the most rapidly. Protein and fat do raise them, but not as high and much more slowly... so if you're a T2, generally the insulin your body still makes may take care of the rise. You might want to try some experiments. First: Eat whatever you've been currently eating... but write it all down. Test yourself at the following times: Upon waking (fasting) 1 hour after each meal 2 hours after each meal At bedtime That means 8 x each day. What you will discover by this is how long after a meal your highest reading comes... and how fast you return to "normal". Also, you may see that a meal that included bread, fruit or other carbs gives you a higher reading. Then for the next few days, try to curb your carbs. Eliminate breads, cereals, rices, beans, any wheat products, potato, corn, fruit... get all your carbs from veggies. Test at the same schedule above. If you try this for a few days, you may find some pretty damn good readings. It's worth a few days to discover. Eventually you can slowly add back carbs until you see them affecting your meter. The thing about this disease... though we share much in common and we need to follow certain guidelines... in the end, each of our bodies dictate our treatment and our success. The closer we get to non-diabetic numbers, the greater chance we have of avoiding horrible complications. The key here is AIM... I know that everyone is at a different point in their disease... and it is progressive. But, if we aim for the best numbers and do our best, we give ourselves the best shot at heath we've got. That's all we can do. Here's my opinion on what numbers to aim for, they are non-diabetic numbers. FBG under 100 One hour after meals under 140 Two hours after meals under 120 or for those in the mmol parts of the world: Fasting Under 6 One hour after meals Under 8 Two hours after meals Under 6.5 Recent studies have indicated that the most important numbers are your "after meal" numbers. They may be the most indicative of future complications, especially heart problems. Listen to your doctor, but you are the leader of your diabetic care team. While his /her advice is learned, it is not absolute. You will end up knowing much more about your body and how it's handling diabetes than your doctor will. Your meter is your best weapon. Just remember, we're not in a race or a competition with anyone but ourselves... Play around with your food plan... TEST TEST TEST. Learn what foods cause spikes, what foods cause cravings... Use your body as a science experiment. You'll read about a lot of different ways people use to control their diabetes... Many are diametrically opposed. After awhile you'll learn that there is no one size fits all around here. Take some time to experiment and you'll soon discover the plan that works for you. Best of luck! Jennifer Jennifer ha scritto: > > Hello > > My aunt is diabetic and I'm looking for an alternative to the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > You don't... what you need to uncover is YOUR Personalized Carb Number. <megacut> > Best of luck! > > Jennifer Thanks a lot for your reply and help Jennifer, I appreciate yours taking the time to write such a detailed and useful answer I agree with you about personalizing your diet and I will attempt to have my aunt performing the test your suggested, it will be of great help and maybe it will wake up her from the allopathic medicine hypnosis David I am amazed at this discussion about diabetes. I understand that a diet to suit your aunt's intake of insulin should be arranged by a hospital dietician. Her doctor or nurse can advise on the amount of carbohydrate that she requires.and advice a low fat intake.Yes excercise is also important.and regular small meals every three hours will keep sugar levels as they should be. Margaret :: I am amazed at this discussion about diabetes. I understand that a :: diet to suit your aunt's intake of insulin should be arranged by a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: hours will keep sugar levels as they should be. :: Margaret This is an interesting post. Did you read the OPs original statement? > :: I am amazed at this discussion about diabetes. I understand that a > :: diet to suit your aunt's intake of insulin should be arranged by a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is an interesting post. Did you read the OPs original statement? Yes a diet by a hospital dietician is what is in order....almost killed my T2 father with their recommendations, but they know best! Rick ::::: I am amazed at this discussion about diabetes. I understand that a ::::: diet to suit your aunt's intake of insulin should be arranged by a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] :: Yes a diet by a hospital dietician is what is in order....almost :: killed my T2 father with their recommendations, but they know best! And the OP claimed his aunt has an endo and their treatment is not working well. |I am amazed at this discussion about diabetes. I understand that a diet |to suit your aunt's intake of insulin should be arranged by a hospital [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] |levels as they should be. |Margaret Meals every three hours are only necessary when diabetics are eating foods that they should not be -- which cause a spike in insulin and swings in their blood sugar. Foods such as sugar, grains, sugary fruits, starchy vegetables. In that case they need to limit quantities in order to prevent damage being done to their bodies by eating those bad foods. On a low-carb diet, the body is supplied with a steady supply of fuel from ketones manufactured in the body. There is no resultant insulin spike to cause the extreme blood glucose swings found in eating a diet full of grains, sugars and starches. No need to eat small meals at certain intervals. Great, isn't it? :-) ::: I am amazed at this discussion about diabetes. I understand that a ::: diet to suit your aunt's intake of insulin should be arranged by a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] :: eating a diet full of grains, sugars and starches. No need to eat :: small meals at certain intervals. Great, isn't it? :-) The OP is claiming large amounts of insulin get released which can then cause hypos. Hypos can be dangerous. |::: I am amazed at this discussion about diabetes. I understand that a |::: diet to suit your aunt's intake of insulin should be arranged by a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] |The OP is claiming large amounts of insulin get released which can then |cause hypos. Hypos can be dangerous. All I can say is my last HbA1c was 5.1 a couple of weeks ago. That's one very happy anecdote for me and my controlled carb, high-fat eating plan. And I haven't passed out yet from insulin swings as I've seen another diabetic do a an hour and a half after eating their meal of dry bread, baked potato with margarine, corn and baked beans with molasses followed by a good sized bowl of low-fat ice cream. > |::: I am amazed at this discussion about diabetes. I understand that a > |::: diet to suit your aunt's intake of insulin should be arranged by a [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > baked potato with margarine, corn and baked beans with molasses > followed by a good sized bowl of low-fat ice cream. Dr. Parsons, who wrote about the Niacin solution to high cholesterol, argued in his book that in his experience people could use diet to cut cholesterol, but it only worked WHILE weight loss was occurring. Because of your long history of LC, and evidently cholesterol control as well, is your experience different from what the doctor alleges? In YMMV, does your mileage indicate cholesterol improvement by diet even under long term stable weigth? Signature1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book 2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book 3) Don't Diet Without Supplemental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins book 4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other) :: Marengo wrote: ::: On Mon, 1 May 2006 05:09:48 -0400, "Roger Zoul" [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] :: In YMMV, does your mileage indicate cholesterol improvement by diet :: even under long term stable weigth? It does in my case....Numbers improved even while weight is stable. IMO, those who say that number improve only because of weight loss are full of BS. Factors like HDL are highly influenced by diet and exercise, IME. > I am amazed at this discussion about diabetes. I understand that a > diet to suit your aunt's intake of insulin should be arranged by a > hospital dietician. Her doctor or nurse can advise on the amount of > carbohydrate that she requires.and advice a low fat intake.Yes > excercise is also important.and regular small meals every three > hours will keep sugar levels as they should be. Hi, good cop. SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- http://www.myspace.com/aaronbaugher "If you hear hoofbeats, you just go ahead and think horsies, not zebras." |Hello |My aunt is diabetic and I'm looking for an alternative to the |allopathic diet her endocrinologist prescribed to her, which is |basically eat all the sh.t you want as long as you take insulin |injection. <snip> |My questions are: do you know a diabetes solution low carb alternative |that deals more with actual insulin output, effect of exercise and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] |Thanks |David I don't understand your premise. Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution deals with every point you mentioned; that's what the book is all about: Insulin control, the effects of exercise and the positive effects of low carb on the metabolism. What more are you looking for? If I'm reading your right, maybe you're looking for independent confirmation that it actually works? If you read his book, you'll know that Dr. Bernstein himself is a type I diabetic,a nd was given basically a death sentence many years ago by his doctors. He found the way to stop -- or at least slow way down -- the dangerous metabolic effects of his diabetes, that's what his book is about. Twenty to thirty years later he's still alive and healthy thanks to his low-carb approach, which help make his medications more effective. I'm T2 diabetic and I know it's a bit different, but since being diagnosed as such with an HbA1c of 9.0 (very high blood sugar over a 90 day measured period), my diabetes has been controlled with just my low-carb diet with no meds. That's not possible of course with a Ti whose body makes no insulin, but it still prevents the blood sugar spikes and valleys which are so dangerous in a diabetic. The several small meals a day recommended by the ADA is as outdated as saying that the world is flat. The whole purpose of it was to try to keep the blood sugar swings to a minimum by eating very small portions several times a day. It's not just the high blood sugar that's dangerous, it's the crash that follows the peaks that are dangerous also). Low carb eating has the same effect by eliminating the foods that cause the blood sugar spikes. When a diabetic eliminates sugar, pasta, potatoes, corn, bread and sugary fruits (simple starches) from their diets it lessens the need for more insulin to rush in to process all the sugar going into the bloodstream. And it prevents the crash that follows that insulin rush. T1 diabetics are able to use less insulin and other medications when following a lc way of eating according to Dr. Bernstein, for this reason. Again, I'm not sure why you're asking the question other than for validation. These issues are very clear in his book and make a lot of sense. And they work. By contrast, my sister is diabetic also and she follows the opposite diet that I do: She follows a macrobiotic, vegan diet eating mostly grains, vegetables and fruit. Abot two hours after she eats she's dizzy and takes glucose tablets because of the insulin crash. She's losing weight and her HbA1c is basically good now -- but why go through the spikes and valleys of that type of diet when it's completely unnecessary by following a ketogenic, low sugar/low starch diet? Good luck to your aunt. > Hello > My aunt is diabetic and I'm looking for an alternative to the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > diet because of his claims (often wrong imo) that lead to a diet which > is basically just animal food and may not be that healthy for everyone. Sounds like you aren't going to trust anybody. Therefore, probably, nobody can help you. > I'm actually afraid that Dr Bernstein diet could worsen the condition > Dr Bernstein claims that the exclusion of all foods that contain quite [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > Thanks > David Signature1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book 2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book 3) Don't Diet Without Supplemental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins book 4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other) |
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