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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / May 2006ketos does not fall
I have been doing Atkins for 3 weeks now and check my ketons every week, I am staying away from carbs, sugars, grain type products etc. I am not always eating 20 gm of carbs, sometimes less than 10 a day to adjust my keton level but it is not changing, any suggestion, thanks Every week? Try checking it 2x per day - and see if that shows positive results.  Signature______ joliett >I have been doing Atkins for 3 weeks now and check my ketons every week, I >am staying away from carbs, sugars, grain type products etc. I am not >always eating 20 gm of carbs, sometimes less than 10 a day to adjust my >keton level but it is not changing, any suggestion, thanks Try to weigh at the same time every day, or at least within the same daily food phase. By that I mean before breakfast and after daily coffee, or something predictable like this. I suspect that if you are not within the desired ketone range before your first meal each day, then you are getting more carbs than you are counting, or maybe you are eating something that is upsetting the cart. Watch alcohol, sugar alcohols, artificial sweeteners, and cheese. Otherwise, you just missed the stick;) Jimmy > Every week? Try checking it 2x per day - and see if that shows positive > results. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >always eating 20 gm of carbs, sometimes less than 10 a day to adjust my > >keton level but it is not changing, any suggestion, thanks > Try to weigh at the same time every day, or at least within the same daily > food phase. By that I mean before breakfast and after daily coffee, or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > alcohol, > sugar alcohols, artificial sweeteners, and cheese. Cheese? Any positive litmus test for ketones is good enough. You do not need to achieve a dark purple reading. Keto sticks are helpful, but not a sure thing. > I have been doing Atkins for 3 weeks now and check my ketons every week, I > am staying away from carbs, sugars, grain type products etc. I am not > always eating 20 gm of carbs, sometimes less than 10 a day to adjust my > keton level but it is not changing, any suggestion, thanks > Any positive litmus test for ketones is good enough. You do not need to > achieve a dark purple reading. > > Keto sticks are helpful, but not a sure thing. Agreed. The test strios are not very accurate. For example, the level of ketones in your urine is directly affected by the amount of water you drink. Testing after a hot day when doing yard work and sweating a lot and not drinking a lot will produce a much higher test reading than a day when you have been drinking lots of fluid and not sweating. > > I have been doing Atkins for 3 weeks now and check my ketons every week, > I > > am staying away from carbs, sugars, grain type products etc. I am not > > always eating 20 gm of carbs, sometimes less than 10 a day to adjust my > > keton level but it is not changing, any suggestion, thanks > I have been doing Atkins for 3 weeks now Please - Atkins is something specific. If you aren't doing what it is, please don't use the term for your own homegrown low carb plan. There's nothing wrong with making low carb up as you go but please call it your own design. > and check my ketons every week, You should be checking daily if you are attempting to be on what Atkins actually is. At least daily - Early on evrey time you urinate is best. You want to find out what time of day the sticks read the darkest because in around 2 weeks the body adjusts and the sticks move lighter. You want to be prepared for this natural progression of events and know when you're most likely to get any results at all on the sticks. > I > am staying away from carbs, sugars, grain type products etc. I am not > always eating 20 gm of carbs, sometimes less than 10 a day Atkins is something specific and there are quotas of carb to reach. Your counts are fine for someone who says they are doing their own low carb plan so please call it that. > to adjust my keton level but it is not changing You appear to be confused on what levels there are - There are only two levels positive and negative. Trace or darker on the sticks is positive, unchanged on the sticks is negative, and the sticks are inaccurate enough (and our carb counts are inaccurate enough) that it is common to read negative a few times in a row while still in ketosis. Note there's something important in the part about positive being trace or darker - Darker readings on the stick are not better if you actually are trying to be on Atkins. For what Atkins actually is in the directions you want positive and that's it. Something else that is tempting to believe that is false: Eating a lower carb count does NOT make the sticks darker. Doesn't matter that it's obvious; obvous does not equal true. Go below some carb count (your CCLL) and you're in ketosis and registering positive. Go lower and the sticks don't get darker. There's real biochemistry behind why cutting carbs lower and lower doesn't increase ketosis levels. Insulin suppresses ketosis and insulin is released in response to dietary carbs. But low insulin is NOT the cause of ketosis. Once the insulin level is low enough that it stops suppressing ketosis further reduction doesn't bring further non-suppression. What increases ketosis is the hormone glucagon and that's released by the body in indirect response to dietary fat. Controlling dietary fat intake is what makes ketosis more or less not controlling dietary carbs. Glucagon is why the instructions of Induction state that combinin low fat with low carb with derail your progress - With low fat there isn't enough glucagon to pull fat out of storage so insulin levels don't matter. If there's nothing to suppress the suppression action is irrelevant. > > I have been doing Atkins for 3 weeks now > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > what Atkins actually is. At least daily - Early on evrey time > you urinate is best. First you blast the guy about Atkins being specific. Then you claim he has to be using ketone test strips daily to be doing Atkins. As I recall, Dr Atkins said you could use them, but never said they had to be used at all to do Atkins. You want to find out what time of day > the sticks read the darkest because in around 2 weeks the > body adjusts and the sticks move lighter. You want to be [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > inaccurate enough) that it is common to read negative a few > times in a row while still in ketosis. Apparently the manufacturers of the strips believe there is more than just positive and negative as there is a color guide right on the bottle to the amount of ketones. > Note there's something important in the part about positive > being trace or darker - Darker readings on the stick are not [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and registering positive. Go lower and the sticks don't get > darker. I'm not so sure about this. What's the basis for this claim? > There's real biochemistry behind why cutting carbs lower and > lower doesn't increase ketosis levels. Insulin suppresses [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > storage so insulin levels don't matter. If there's nothing to > suppress the suppression action is irrelevant. > > > to adjust my keton level but it is not changing > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > just positive and negative as there is a color guide right on the > bottle to the amount of ketones. The sticks are made to tell diabetics if they should get checked for ketoacidosis so the color guide on the label is for them not for low carbers who happen to use a tool not designed for us. > > Something else that is tempting to believe that is false: > > Eating a lower carb count does NOT make the sticks darker. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'm not so sure about this. What's the basis for this claim? Try it and see. Gather some data from yourself and from others. > > > > to adjust my keton level but it is not changing > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Try it and see. Gather some data from yourself and from others. See, Doug there you go again. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Once again, yout spew crap as if it were established fact. And when asked what the basis for your assertion is, your answer is that I should gather data? >From the limited data I have, I think the above is likely false. But, I realize that I don't really have any convincing data, one way of the other. The difference is, I recognize that and don;t go running around spewing crap as if it were fact. > See, Doug there you go again. I was willing to give you the benefit of > the doubt. Once again, yout spew crap as if it were established fact. > And when asked what the basis for your assertion is, your answer is > that I should gather data? When you don't believe or don't like something you call it crap. > From the limited data I have, I think the above is likely false. But, > I realize that I don't really have any convincing data, one way of the > other. The difference is, I recognize that and don;t go running > around spewing crap as if it were fact. You don't have any data whatsoever. My data isn't gathered in an auditted experimental process and so it needs to be improved on but it still beats yours. Pick a carb count below your CCLL to have you in ketosis with a margin. Stay there 4+ weeks. Test daily starting then. Start decreasing your carb count every few days adn test daily while doing so. See what happens. The sticks don't get darker all the way down to zero. Because carb count doesn't control how dark the sticks get just whether they turn or not. Gather the data and you'll see it's about the biochemistry not your dataless beliefs. > > See, Doug there you go again. I was willing to give you the benefit of > > the doubt. Once again, yout spew crap as if it were established fact. > > And when asked what the basis for your assertion is, your answer is > > that I should gather data? > > When you don't believe or don't like something you call it crap. No, I call it crap when it's presented as fact and in reality, you have no link, no reference, nothing credible to back it up, as you did in this case. Remember when you outlined as fact for everyone exactly how Dr. Agatston came up with the South Beach Diet? You even claimed he worked at Atkins Center with Dr Atkins. When challenged, that all fell apart as a total fabrication based on pure conjecture. You took something that was mere speculation and presented it as fact. In reality, Agatston never worked even worked at Atkins Center. > > From the limited data I have, I think the above is likely false. But, > > I realize that I don't really have any convincing data, one way of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > auditted experimental process and so it needs to be improved on > but it still beats yours. You're right, that I don't have any real valid data that I collected. The difference is, I realize that and would never present anything along those lines as fact. You fail to see how dangerous or improper this is. You state something as if it were proven fact. Unless someone challenged you, others reading this would be left with the impression it is fact. In reality, it's YOUR OPINION. If you stated that your scientific prognostications are based on data consisting of internet newgroup postings most people would just dimiss your so called data and conclusions as worthless. If you made posts that said, "based on my own experience with testing strips, I think...." then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But clearly you have a problem seperating fact from limited personal observation or conjecture. And base on that, I wouldn't trust any of your so called data or conclusions period. > Pick a carb count below your CCLL to have you in ketosis with a > margin. Stay there 4+ weeks. Test daily starting then. Start [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the sticks get just whether they turn or not. Gather the data and > you'll see it's about the biochemistry not your dataless beliefs. I'm the one with dataless beliefs? LOL. I'm not the one matter of factly stating things that are based on conclusions drawn from God knows what. Let's look at some of the other crap you spewed and compare it to Atkins from DANDR latest edition: Doug: "You should be checking daily if you are attempting to be on what Atkins actually is. At least daily - Early on evrey time you urinate is best. " Atkins: "You don;t have to use LTS, but doing so can be an extremely convenient aid to doing Atkins" Doug: "You appear to be confused on what levels there are - There are only two levels positive and negative. " Atkins "The more ketones you excrete, and therefore the greater the degree of ketosis you are in, the darker the color." Doug: "Atkins is something specific and there are quotas of carb to reach. Your counts are fine for someone who says they are doing their own low carb plan so please call it that. " The OP stated he was not always eating 20g of carb, but sometimes was less than 10g. That is perfectly consistent with Atkins induction, because the 20g is a limit, not a required number to hit. And if it ain't kindly provide the page reference that shows otherwise. Don't bother, cause we know it aint coming. Doug: You were asked by Trader4 the following which you just ignored..... ----------------------------------------- Doug Wrote: >You should be checking daily if you are attempting to be on >> what Atkins actually is. At least daily - Early on evrey time >> you urinate is best. Trader4 wrote: First you blast the guy about Atkins being specific. Then you claim he has to be using ketone test strips daily to be doing Atkins. As I recall, Dr Atkins said you could use them, but never said they had to be used at all to do Atkins. ----------------------------------------------- Several of us are concerned with how you "Invent" Atkins as you go along. DANDR 2002 edition.... Page 137 "You don't have to use LTS [ Lyposis (or Ketosis)Testing Strips such as Ketostis ] but doing so CAN be an extremely conveninet aid to doing Atkins." "in general, the LTS will no longer turn pink or purple once you are taking in 50 or more grams per day of carbohydrates, so they are of no use as people get above that level of carbohydrate intake." So, here Dr, Atkins says "You don't have to use " .... ketosis sticks ... You say that he OP should be checking daily (according to Atkins). Looks like "invention", Sounds like "Invention" . You perhaps have an explanation that we uninformed can not comprehend. Jim You are amazing. Sometimes I just chuckle.... and forget that you have this obsession. Other times, I feel it is important to call a duck a duck, incase some poor newbie hasn't yet figured you out. Signature1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book 2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book 3) Don't Diet Without Supplemental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins book 4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other) > Doug: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Several of us are concerned with how you "Invent" Atkins as you go along. Call it what you will. Some of the stuff I write exceed what is within the books - using them more often early on. Other of the stuff I write is in the books - using the sticks on a daily basis. > DANDR 2002 edition.... Page 137 This is a problem. The versions of the books disagree. As such if anyone cites anything someone's going to dig through other versions to find the disagreement. It's why I end up blowing people off when asked for cites. > "You don't have to use LTS [ Lyposis (or Ketosis)Testing Strips such as > Ketostis ] but doing so CAN be an extremely conveninet aid to doing Atkins." As opposed to the 1972 edition where he was clear that the entire process resolves around ketosis. Consider my standard advice about the strips - View them as training wheels. They read darker in the first couple of weeks, lighter in later weeks. The early darker readings correlate with the early more intense symptoms so they teach what those symptoms are. The later lighter readings point to the later fainter symptoms. Some use the sticks to learn to recognize the fainter symtpoms so they no longer need the sticks. For others the symptoms get so faint they can't tell without the sticks. So if you don't use the sticks and learn to tell your own ketosis on your own without them, great. Now take a step back and compare what I write on the topic with the blind dumb reaction that Doug is just making sh.t up. My stance is far better founded in the books and the experience of years tracking what happens. > "in general, the LTS will no longer turn pink or purple once you are > taking in 50 or more grams per day of carbohydrates, so they are of no > use as people get above that level of carbohydrate intake." This is a statement of what the most common CCLL is. Simple as that. The fact is there are people who still test positive higher than 100 grams per day. Either these people are lying, or Dr A didn't have a bloody clue what he was talking about, or there's need to figure out what he wrote based on the actual facts. The actual facts say that lots of people fall out of ketosis near 50 but some don't even get into ketosis at 20 and some stay in over 100. In other words the actual facts say that my interpretation is the one to use. > So, here Dr, Atkins says "You don't have to use " .... ketosis sticks ... If you just look at the words in the book as some sort of holy writ that mean exactly what you want them to mean independent of what actually happens in the real world. As compared to looking at what happens it the real world, looking at the good doctor's words, understanding that how poorly the books were worded has much to do with the negative media coverage, concluding the his writing skills weren't up to expressing what he was attempting to convey, understanding that he did know what happens, and correlating what happens in the real world to puzzle out what he was attempting to say. But no, people want it to be so simple that they can cite the holy writ, utterly ignore what happens in actual practice, and pull out quote bites to support their incorrect stances. Because people want to believe what they want to believe. But wanting to believe something doesn't make it true. > You say that he OP should be checking daily (according to Atkins). > > Looks like "invention", Sounds like "Invention" . > > You perhaps have an explanation that we uninformed can not comprehend. Read the book. Understand the writing skills failure. See what happens in actual practice. Put the failed words beside the actual events. Puzzle over it for a while. Figure out an interpretation that matches actual events. State them. Have people quote bites of the holy writ telling you you're making stuff up. > > Doug: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the stuff I write is in the books - using the sticks on a daily > basis. Unbelievable fabricattion is what I call it. You don;t see the difference between where an Atkns book ends and your own conjecture begins. And you think you can explain this crap away per the above. You weave this stuff to make it look like you are explaining Atkins. In reality, those less experienced are left not knowing where Atkins ended and your made up crap begins. > > DANDR 2002 edition.... Page 137 > > This is a problem. The versions of the books disagree. As such > if anyone cites anything someone's going to dig through other > versions to find the disagreement. It's why I end up blowing > people off when asked for cites. I as well as others have asked you for references many times. We never get one. Not because there are many that conflict with each other. That would make it easy for you to provide a reference. Instead you never can provide a reference for your claims. Instead you come up with lame excuses. And now you have the nerve to point the finger at Dr. Atkins and claim that he is the one giving out conflicting advice? Unbelievable! > > "You don't have to use LTS [ Lyposis (or Ketosis)Testing Strips such as > > Ketostis ] but doing so CAN be an extremely conveninet aid to doing Atkins." > > As opposed to the 1972 edition where he was clear that the > entire process resolves around ketosis. And this proves what? Show us where Atkins said you have to test your urine daily or even more frequently to do Atkins right, as you claimed to the newbe. > Consider my standard advice about the strips - View them as > training wheels. They read darker in the first couple of weeks, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > So if you don't use the sticks and learn to tell your own > ketosis on your own without them, great. It gets better and better. Now we have two alternatives. Use the strips or learn how to recognize the fainter symptoms so we can tell if we are in ketosis. Another ridiculous assertion. How can anyone "learn" to tell they are in ketosis? And you don't need to tell in the first place period. > Now take a step back and compare what I write on the topic > with the blind dumb reaction that Doug is just making sh.t up. > My stance is far better founded in the books and the experience > of years tracking what happens. You are unable to provide a single credible link, as Jbuch and I have requested for any of this. So, yes, you are making it up. Remember the story you made up of exactly how Dr. Agatston, of South Beach fame, arrived at his diet? You even wove in that he worked at Atkins Center. When I challenged, that, as frequently happens , there was no link, no proof, it was pure conjecture, presented as fact. > > "in general, the LTS will no longer turn pink or purple once you are > > taking in 50 or more grams per day of carbohydrates, so they are of no [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > stay in over 100. In other words the actual facts say that my > interpretation is the one to use. And now you attack Dr. Atkins as the one who didn;t have a clue? Again, unbelievable arrogance. In the excerpt above, Dr. Atkins started off with "In general the LTS will no longer turn pink or purple once you are taking in 50 grams" Sound reasonable and accurate to me and consistent with my own experience. I suppose you're going to tell us you have better "data" > > So, here Dr, Atkins says "You don't have to use " .... ketosis sticks ... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > what happens, and correlating what happens in the real world > to puzzle out what he was attempting to say. And now Dr. Atkins is just a poor writer who needs Doug to find the true meaning of his words and explain it to the dumb masses. Give me a break. What you are doing is frequently misquoting Dr. Atkins or taking part of what he said and they weaving it with conjecture without telling anyone where one ends and the other begins. > But no, people want it to be so simple that they can cite the > holy writ, utterly ignore what happens in actual practice, and > pull out quote bites to support their incorrect stances. Because > people want to believe what they want to believe. But wanting > to believe something doesn't make it true. Oh my! LOL How stupid do you think we all are? > > You say that he OP should be checking daily (according to Atkins). > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that matches actual events. State them. Have people quote > bites of the holy writ telling you you're making stuff up. And wrap it all up by blaming your lies on Atkins. Seems most of us here understood him fine. It's only you who seek to use this as a very poor excuse for your sorry attempt to pass off made up crap as the truth. >> > Doug: >> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > In reality, those less experienced are left not knowing where Atkins > ended and your made up crap begins. Relax. You're one hundred percent correct, but his mind isn't open to what you're saying. He does not wish to see a difference between stating an opinion or belief as fact and stating it as an opinion or belief. You (and others) have pointed this out to him repeatedly on clear, certain and simple terms which anyone could understand if only they were willing. > Apparently the manufacturers of the strips believe there is more than > just positive and negative as there is a color guide right on the > bottle to the amount of ketones. Sure, but it's a concentration. So if you drink a lot, it's a lighter concentration and if you don't it's darker. This has to do with how much you're drinking, not how many ketones you're producing. You're in ketosis or you're not. >I have been doing Atkins for 3 weeks now and check my ketons every week, I >am staying away from carbs, sugars, grain type products etc. I am not >always eating 20 gm of carbs, sometimes less than 10 a day to adjust my >keton level but it is not changing, any suggestion, thanks Who cares about the Keto rating? It means nothing. What does the scale and your waistband say? > >I have been doing Atkins for 3 weeks now and check my ketons every week, I > >am staying away from carbs, sugars, grain type products etc. I am not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Who cares about the Keto rating? It means nothing. What does the scale and > your waistband say? There is also the possibility that his test strips have simply gone bad. They are not as reliable as they get older and especially if they are exposed to excess moisture (like keeping them in the bathroom). SignatureSaffire 205/140/135-140 (aka JUST RIGHT!) Atkins since 6/14/03 Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333 *** This post originated in alt.support.diet.low-carb -- its appearance in any other forum is deceptive and unauthorized. *** |
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