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How does it work?!

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pishi - 18 Nov 2006 09:12 GMT
I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't loose a pound.
How does it really work?!
Jeri - 18 Nov 2006 12:07 GMT
> I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't loose a pound.
> How does it really work?!

Not sure which "famous" diet you tried but most of the ones I can think of
have books that explain how it works. Without more information no one can
begin to give you advice on why you didn't lose weight.

I can tell you that low carb doesn't mean you can eat as much as you want.
No matter what diet you're following, in order to lose weight you have to
eat fewer calories than you burn. Low carb makes it easier and more pleasant
for most people since fat is more satisfying and filling but you can't pig
out on high calorie foods and expect to lose weight no matter how low carb
they are.

If you want to post what a typical daily menu was for you then perhaps
someone can help you.
Signature

Jeri
"Change is inevitable, except from vending machines."

jcderkoenig - 18 Nov 2006 12:35 GMT
Try eating less and doing some exercise.

>I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't loose a pound.
> How does it really work?!
jw - 18 Nov 2006 13:39 GMT
It came to pass that on 18 Nov 2006, jcderkoenig scribed thusly to all in
alt.support.diet.low-carb the following inspiration:

> Try eating less and doing some exercise.

Nah, too simple.  ;-)

Signature

jw

“It is always the simple things that change our lives. And these things
never happen when you are looking for them to happen.  Life will reveal
answers at the pace life wishes to do so. You feel like running, but life
is on a stroll. This is how God does things.”
       -- Donald Miller

Cubit - 22 Nov 2006 18:00 GMT
How ya been JC?

> Try eating less and doing some exercise.
>
>>I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't loose a pound.
>> How does it really work?!
jcderkoenig - 22 Nov 2006 19:12 GMT
Great, as always.

And you?

> How ya been JC?
>
>> Try eating less and doing some exercise.
>>
>>>I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't loose a pound.
>>> How does it really work?!
Cubit - 29 Nov 2006 22:13 GMT
I'm OK.

> Great, as always.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>>>I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't loose a pound.
>>>> How does it really work?!
Roger Zoul - 18 Nov 2006 13:33 GMT
:: I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't
:: loose a pound. How does it really work?!

Don't over tighten your belt and/or don't use such a tight grip.
Cheri - 18 Nov 2006 19:02 GMT
LOL

--
Cheri

>:: I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't
>:: loose a pound. How does it really work?!
>
>Don't over tighten your belt and/or don't use such a tight grip.
coonskin@amestwp.com - 18 Nov 2006 15:22 GMT
Using 1 year studies as the time period weight loss for all types of
diets was due to eating fewer calories.  There is some possible greater
energy cost for metabolizing different macrnutrients, but the main
reason is eating fewer calories once all is said and done.
Susan - 18 Nov 2006 15:33 GMT
> Using 1 year studies as the time period weight loss for all types of
> diets was due to eating fewer calories.  There is some possible greater
> energy cost for metabolizing different macrnutrients, but the main
> reason is eating fewer calories once all is said and done.

This is absolutely not the case.  Studies consistently show that low
carb dieters lose more weight while eating more calories than high
carb/low fat dieters.

The unexamined reason that the weight loss looks so similar at one year
is that the low carb diets call for increased carb levels for
maintenance and look more like the higher carb diets at that point.

Further, the low carb dieters lose more fat mass and preserve more lean
body mass than the higher carb, low fat dieters.

Susan
coonskin@amestwp.com - 18 Nov 2006 17:11 GMT
"The unexamined reason that the weight loss looks so similar at one year
is that the low carb diets call for increased carb levels for
maintenance and look more like the higher carb diets at that point.

Further, the low carb dieters lose more fat mass and preserve more lean
body mass than the higher carb, low fat dieters."

As said, once all is said and done at 1 year weight loss was similar for
all diets because of reduced calories, that is how in all diets it
works.  The details might vary to a degree but it is the calories in the
end.  Any energy cost for different metabolic pathway engagment is a
detail and not an fundimental explanation.
Susan - 18 Nov 2006 18:03 GMT
> As said, once all is said and done at 1 year weight loss was similar for
> all diets because of reduced calories, that is how in all diets it
> works.

Weight regulation is hormonal. Different macronutrients have different
hormonal effects.

  The details might vary to a degree but it is the calories in the
> end.

Hormones in the end that determine a) degree of hunger and b) the impact
of various types of caloric intake.

  Any energy cost for different metabolic pathway engagment is a
> detail and not an fundimental explanation.

Different calories matter differently.

Susan
Roger Zoul - 18 Nov 2006 20:04 GMT
:: Different calories matter differently.

I like that statement!
Susan - 18 Nov 2006 21:14 GMT
From another thread:

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/15

Susan
coonskin@amestwp.com - 18 Nov 2006 21:43 GMT
"http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/15"

Indeed, thermodynamics,ie. as measured by calories, describes all diet
plans.  Excessive calorie intake is stored as fat.  Reducing calorie
intake below daily energy requirements will in time cause fat stores to
be used to replace the difference.  Some differences in the calorie cost
of various metabolic pathways required in digesting various nutrients
can affect the energy process as described above.  High protein intake
is said to require more energy to metabolis by a small amount then carb
and fat,ie. it takes more caloric energy to turn proteins into forms
usable as energy sources for cells.  Once all the calorie arthmetic has
been done balancing the various combinations then we arrive at the most
basic statement of weight loss - all diets in the end cause weight loss
or gain because of the number of calories consumed.
coonskin@amestwp.com - 18 Nov 2006 21:57 GMT
"Hormones in the end that determine a) degree of hunger and b) the
impact
of various types of caloric intake."

Another way of saying that with varying "hunger" levels the calories can
vary also, less eat fewer calores, more potential to eat more calories.

  Any energy cost for different metabolic pathway engagment is a
> detail and not an fundimental explanation.

"Different calories matter differently."

Only in so far as the nutrient source of the calories is concerned.  The
final number is the sum of how many calories are consumed converting the
nutrient into an energy source usable at the cell level.  Star with "x"
amount of calories in a food, substract the energy to metobolize it
which is its energy cost, and how that food adds to the total calorie
count is found.  However in the end it is the sum in total calories that
causes weight gain as excess energy is stored in fat for later use or
loss as current energy demands fall short and the stored fat is used to
make up the difference.  Calorie balance describes it in full, all the
sums of all the energy costs is the details.
Susan - 18 Nov 2006 23:07 GMT
> "Different calories matter differently."
>
> Only in so far as the nutrient source of the calories is concerned.

You clearly slept through endcrinology 101.

I've reached my weekly limit for cement brained lack of comprehension by
usenet denizens.

Susan
coonskin@amestwp.com - 19 Nov 2006 02:22 GMT
"I've reached my weekly limit for cement brained lack of comprehension
by usenet denizens."

I'm tempted to say "don't be so hard on yourself", but I will restrain
myself.

The idea that was the conclusion of the link you provided is exactly
what I have been saying.  Don't you accept your own supporting
information?
Nicky - 19 Nov 2006 09:45 GMT
> "I've reached my weekly limit for cement brained lack of comprehension
> by usenet denizens."
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> what I have been saying.  Don't you accept your own supporting
> information?

Coonskin, did you actually read the cite? Here's the start of the
conclusion:
"Thermodynamics is not the limiting factor behind the concept of metabolic
advantage. On the contrary, thermodynamics guarantees inefficiency in all
metabolic processes and is silent on the possibility that inefficiency may
be augmented in some instances."

In the body of the closely-argued text, they describe 4 and mention a
further mechanism where metabolic advantage has been apparent in
experimental studies. These include low carb and protein based diets.

He's not sure whether the observed metabolic advantage is coming from a
dietary source or from endogenous (internal) mechanisms, hence the
fence-sitting; he's absolutely clear that such an effect exists.

Nicky.

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coonskin@amestwp.com - 19 Nov 2006 22:44 GMT
"Coonskin, did you actually read the cite? Here's the start of the
conclusion:
"Thermodynamics is not the limiting factor behind the concept of
metabolic
advantage. On the contrary, thermodynamics guarantees inefficiency in
all
metabolic processes and is silent on the possibility that inefficiency
may
be augmented in some instances."

In the body of the closely-argued text, they describe 4 and mention a
further mechanism where metabolic advantage has been apparent in
experimental studies. These include low carb and protein based diets.

He's not sure whether the observed metabolic advantage is coming from a
dietary source or from endogenous (internal) mechanisms, hence the
fence-sitting; he's absolutely clear that such an effect exists."

I read that conclusion also, it says in other words what I was saying.  
"Metabolic advantage" is with regard to possible "advantage" in weight
loss because some nutrients require more energy, calories, to metabolize
then do others.  This follows your part above:

"The presence of high quantities of dietary protein (often a feature of
low carbohydrate diets) is known to stimulate protein turnover, an
energetically costly process. However, it is unclear whether this is the
only factor, or whether it is necessary for metabolic advantage to
occur."

I used the exact same example of how different pathways have differing
energy costs.  A high protein diet uses more energy to get to cells then
does a carb or fat diet.  But this only pushes the decimal point about
some when the sum of all energy costs are totaled and subtracted from
total calorie intake.

All of this changes the fundimental truth not at all, weight loss in the
end depends on consuming fewer calories then are required for daily
activity including basic metabolism.  In principle a higher protein diet
will be a bit faster given the same calorie intake because more of those
calories are consumed in using protein compared to fat and carbs.  If a
low carb diet works it is because of this fundimentl process of mucking
about with the energy costs of different nutrition sources and related
metabolic advantages different sources engage.

A calorie is a calorie at the cell usage level.  But how many calories
are consumed getting those calories to the cell differrs depending on
how much the original source of them has to be modified to get them to
the cells and the cost in calories to carry out that process.  All
calories do not reach the cells in the same amount depending on the food
source containing them.  A low carb idet also consumes more calories to
shift internal metabolism to consuming stored fat also which is an
additional calorie cost to make it happen..
Doug Freyburger - 20 Nov 2006 15:36 GMT
> > The unexamined reason that the weight loss looks so similar at one year
> i> s that the low carb diets call for increased carb levels for
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> As said, once all is said and done at 1 year weight loss was similar for
> all diets because of reduced calories

Notice how you're carefull to pick a specific time frame in order to be
technically correct on your stated point while at the same time
ignoring the facts for earlier time frames.

In many studies, low carbers without caloric restriction lose 4%
more than low fatters with caloric restriction.  The reason that loss
at twice that length of time has reached the same levels is the
metabolic advantage of ketosis is proportional to the amount of
excess fat remaining to lose.  A year later so many test subjects
have bottomed out in both test groups that rates no longer
mismatch.  What these studies show is that if you're willing to
stick with a low fat plus calorie restircted diet for longer than
someone on a low carb non-restricted diet, you'll lose anyways.

> that is how in all diets works.

A stance you reach by carefully ignoring one set of facts and
selecting another set of facts without paying heed to why the
numbers start different and end different.

> The details might vary to a degree but it is the calories in the
> end.  Any energy cost for different metabolic pathway engagment is a
> detail and not an fundimental explanation.

That's also incorrect on several levels.

1) Different fuels are burned using different metabolic pathways and
they do have different efficiencies.  Include digestion and calories
have even greater inefficiencies.  Calories are a poor measurement
that happens to be easy to look up in a table.  In a way, calories
are rather like the scale reading that way.

2) Weight is caused by amount of stored body fat plus amount of
lean plus other.  If stored body fat is withdrwan from storage it
is weight lost whether it is burned for fuel or not.  Low insulin and
high glucagon levels of ketosis draw fat from storage.  Calories
get wasted.  Do enough studies on where it goes and I suggest
you'll find where that 4% number above comes from.  Also, low
carbers lose less lean that low fatters.

3) Calories-in is not all there is to the equation.  Calories-out is
also a variable.  It's why exercise is stressed.  It's also why there
is so much discussion of "starvation mode".  What "starvation
mode" is (other than something denied by folks who like to
define stuff out of existance) is a reduction in basal metabolism.
Carefully track basal metabolism in dieters and you'll discover some
fun stuff.  For example low carb reduces it less than low fat.  But
also extreme approaches to local carb reduce it more than mild
approaches to low carb.
coonskin@amestwp.com - 20 Nov 2006 21:07 GMT
My remarks in various posts in this thread encompass all of the below.
1 year was used to illustrate that at the longest time of studies
comparing various diets with high protein/low carb results were similar
and could be explained by fewer calories consumed compared to daily
energy needs.  Up to 6 months the high protein/low carb diets have a
small advantage as below.  Thereafter differences start to disappear to
the 1 year point as above.

During those first 6 months it is reasonable to assume weight loss with
high protein/low carb has higher energy costs for metablizing the
different macronutrients, the energy costs of shifting to stored fat and
protein intake, plus differential water loss not discussed before.  By 6
months those higher energy costs have been consumed and the advantage
starts to disappear.

Even considering the advantage for differing energy costs for different
ratios of macronutrients, weight loss in the end, the 1 year point used
as proxy for same, is because there was a deficit in energy as measured
by calories made up by stored energy sources.  This is valid and
accounts for the loss inspite of the tinkering done to evoke differing
energy costs.  Bty, exercise level can be one energy cost and is easily
added to the sum with ease.

Atkins wanted to distinguish his diet from others in part by suggesting
some magic was at hand that calorie deficit did not account for in his
results.  High protein/low carb diets are now more generally accepted as
working with some caloric advantage over others but with no reason to
evoke some magical biophysics to describe the final result as compared
to other equally caloric deficit diets.  The 4 percent advantage for the
first 6 months means for the same deficit another dieter will have to
consume less to have the same weight loss results.  At one year things
have changed.

> Notice  how you're carefull to pick a specific time
frame in order to be
>technically correct on your stated point while at the same time
>ignoring the facts for earlier time frames.
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>also extreme approaches to local carb reduce it more than mild
>approaches to low carb.
Curly C - 26 Nov 2006 08:01 GMT
I eat about 4000 calories a day and I am very lean. When I was eating
high carb, I would gain weight if I went over 2500 calories. Without
insulin present, it is darn near impossible to add fat to your body. If
you eat too much though, you will have a harder time losing (even on 0
carb) but you won't gain any fat either.

I would keep the calories up but start exercising too. If you don't like
to exercise, then you must reduce the calories but stay as close to 0
carbs as you can.
tunderbar@hotmail.com - 20 Nov 2006 16:52 GMT
> I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't loose a pound.
> How does it really work?!

If you actually had tried a famous low-carb diet:

1) you would know how it "really" works
2) you would have "loosed" lots of pounds.

Therefore we must conclude that you are a troll and a liar and a sh.t
disturber.

So go back to your hole in the ground and let us adults have real
discussions in peace.

TC
ephedralover@hotmail.com - 22 Nov 2006 19:23 GMT
> I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't loose a pound.
> How does it really work?!

Eat like Atkins, Die like Atkins. Bad diet, bad results.
jcderkoenig - 22 Nov 2006 19:30 GMT
So following the Atkins plan will cause you to die of a major head injury
after 72 years?

Amazing.

>> I tried a famous low-carb diet for 3 month and didn't loose a pound.
>> How does it really work?!
>
> Eat like Atkins, Die like Atkins. Bad diet, bad results.
ephedralover@hotmail.com - 22 Nov 2006 19:34 GMT
After you have multiple heart attacks, oran failures and are grossly
obese, yes.

> So following the Atkins plan will cause you to die of a major head injury
> after 72 years?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> > Eat like Atkins, Die like Atkins. Bad diet, bad results.
jcderkoenig - 22 Nov 2006 19:51 GMT
What flavor of kool-aid was it?

> After you have multiple heart attacks, oran failures and are grossly
> obese, yes.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> >
>> > Eat like Atkins, Die like Atkins. Bad diet, bad results.
ephedralover@hotmail.com - 22 Nov 2006 20:19 GMT
Grape-Low Carb-High Grease.

> What flavor of kool-aid was it?
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >> >
> >> > Eat like Atkins, Die like Atkins. Bad diet, bad results.
Bob (this one) - 22 Nov 2006 22:32 GMT
> After you have multiple heart attacks, oran failures and are grossly
> obese, yes.

<LOL>

Another Wizard of the Whole Truth......

Pastorio

>> So following the Atkins plan will cause you to die of a major head injury
>> after 72 years?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>>> Eat like Atkins, Die like Atkins. Bad diet, bad results.
 
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