On Mar 29, 10:05 pm, monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
> "During six years of follow-up, 166 cases of CHD were diagnosed and
> matched with 327 controls
> for age, smoking status, fasting status and date of blood drawing."
> This is not controlled properly, though it might pass for "science"
> these days.
What's the problem with the control group? The only known a priori
difference is the presence of CHD. If you then measure trans fat
levels and the ones with CHD have the highest it's a clear
correlation.
> They took the people who developed "CHD" and then
> compared them to people without CHD, who they deemed to be similar.
Since it hasn't been published yet, you don't actually know what they
did.
> For all we know, there could have been a large number of people with
> high trans fatty acid levels and no CHD.
We do know. They found a strong correlation between trans fat and CHD,
therefore there can't have been "a large number" with the exact
opposite.
> If you want to "believe," be
> my guest.
If you want to dismiss the data and stick to your faith-based view, be
my guest. Just stop posting your fantasies as the scientific truth.
> However, if you want to claim that an unsaturated bond is
> healthy in a configuratiion that is more likely to be degraded by free
> radicals, whereas another unsaturated bond is very uhealthy, even
> though it is more resistant, you are writing yourself a fairly tale.
Your claim of trans double bonds being more resistant has never been
backed up by a citation, but feel free to give one, otherwise you're
the one spinning the fairytale.
> Notice how MattLB does not address my point. Where does it say that
> they accounted for oxidized cholesterol or antioxidant intake?
I did address your point: "They weren't looking at the effects of
antioxidants, they were doing a prospective study on whether there's a
relationship between trans fat
levels and heart disease. "
Your argument may be that everyone who had high trans fat also had low
antioxidants/oxidized cholesterol and that's what's really to blame,
but you've no evidence for that, whereas there is evidence for high
trans fat being associated with CHD.
> In fact, not all the naturally-occurring antioxidants contained in
> "natural" foods are even known
Equally irrelevant.
> Note that as I said, I don't necessarily disagree with their findings,
> but it is the mechanism that makes no sense.
What mechanism are you talking about? Their study isn't looking for a
mechanism, just a correlation.
> There is no reason to
> blame a trans fatty acid unless you also blame an unsaturated fatty
> acid with the same number of bonds.
For general lipid peroxidation that's true, but physiologically it's
naive and untrue.
> Trans fatty acids are naturally-
> occurring,
Not in human tissues. They have to come from the diet - that's why
they're such a useful measurement when relating disease to diet.
> but in small amounts, just as most humans ate diets very
> low in PUFAs until recently.
Obviously not true for any seaside communities.
> might want to take a look at what Shils and Young have to say about
> trans fatty acids in their massive nutrition textbook (written for
> professionals). They point out that fish oil is much worse in the
> atherosclerotic context. This was documented decades ago in
> experiments that did control properly.
But would have had inferior measuring techniques. Also trans fatty
acids weren't prevalent decades ago, nor was the oxLDL mechanism for
atherosclerosis known.
> Nother MattLB claims can
> change that fact. Get the book and see for yourself.
Which edition are you talking about?
MattLB