Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / April 2007
Re: "You on a diet"
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Sean - 19 Apr 2007 22:31 GMT On Feb 3, 7:55 am, "Hollywood" <maxlhar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 2, 5:38 pm, seanthomaske...@hotmail.com wrote: > > > On Dec 5 2006, 6:13 am, "Hollywood" <maxlhar...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Sat Fat isn't a killer if you nix > > > the carbs. > > > Saturated fat reduces the ability of the good cholesterol to remove > > the bad cholesterol from the bloodstream. So eating a lot of it can > > result in heart attack or stroke. My doctor calls it a "poison". > > > Sean > > Thanks for your timely reply. That was because I stumbled across your post while searching google groups for something else. This time the wait is due to the fact that I waited until I had my new cholesterol test results to tell you.
> That said, I have been eating a lot of sat fat (about 40G per day for > the past 5.5 months), and have DRAMATICALLY lowered my LDL-C "bad > cholesterol" while maintaining a good number for HDL-C "good > cholesterol". Like 70+ points of LDL in about three and a half months. > Oddly, no stroke, no heart attack, and My Doctor, who believed what I had a physician's assistant tell me that the heart attack or stroke comes after years of high cholesterol levels. A blood clot could still bring it on even if your cholesterol is low.
> your doctor believed, and was talking liver destroying statin drugs to > lower my cholesterol, has changed his tune. > > Additionally, you might want to check out "The Cholesterol Con" and > while you're at it, buy your doc a copy. I think that an inherent distrust of people can lead to a belief that there is a conspiracy by doctors to keep their patients from being healthy. I believe that my doctors truly want what is best for me but more than that, I believe in science. I also suspect that the advice in my Anatomy Physiology textbook and the knowledge that my doctors learned in medical school is based on multiple studies published in peer-reviewed journals, which is the gold standard of science.
The book you mention is just one book, probably published by one author, in a sea of a preponderance of evidence to the contrary. You do yourself a disservice to believe in it.
That said, I've been walking for an hour and a half a day and keeping my dietary saturated fat down to about 20% of the U.S. recommended daily allowance for the last three months. I just had my cholesterol tested and it is down 34%. The total cholesterol went from 248 to 163, well within healthy limits ( <200). My LDL cholesterol went from 159 to 88, also well within healthy limits ( <160). My triglycerides are way down, as well. All without eating very much saturated fat and while eating a diet high in unrefined carbohydrates. I've lost weight on this diet.
I've heard that the spectacular losses made on a low carb diet are due to the body loosing water due to the lack of carbohydrates. After the initial loss the rate of loss goes down to the amount of energy out - energy in, adjusting for how fast the metabolism is (really part of energy out). You can keep your metabolism higher by eating small meals every three hours and by not eating refined carbohydrates. My Anatomy Physiology book calls low-carb dieting "unwise".
> If you don't want a heart attack, eat fat and don't smoke. I agree with the don't smoke part. I am glad that your cholesterol went down, but are you sure that there isn't something that your not telling us that would explain why?
> -Hollywood > 265/225/210 Good job.
Sean
193/170/140
Bob in CT - 19 Apr 2007 22:47 GMT > On Feb 3, 7:55 am, "Hollywood" <maxlhar...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Feb 2, 5:38 pm, seanthomaske...@hotmail.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > learned in medical school is based on multiple studies published in > peer-reviewed journals, which is the gold standard of science. Oh god -- peer reviewed work in journals. We could go on for days about these.
> The book you mention is just one book, probably published by one > author, in a sea of a preponderance of evidence to the contrary. You > do yourself a disservice to believe in it. Actually, he's a free thinking individual who happened upon something that made him change his mind. You? A lemming.
> That said, I've been walking for an hour and a half a day and keeping > my dietary saturated fat down to about 20% of the U.S. recommended [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > 193/170/140 To further your knowledge, perhaps you could peruse this:
A study indicating that an increase in "good" cholesterol RAISED heart attack risk
http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0416/054.html
I don't have time to list the many other studies that indicate that lowering LDL does nothing for heart disease. Just because you and many doctors believe this to be true doesn't make it true. Another good book is http://www.newtrendspublishing.com/Ravnskov/index.html
 Signature Bob in CT
Roger Zoul - 20 Apr 2007 13:08 GMT :: On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:31:28 -0400, Sean :: <seanthomaskelly@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] :: -- :: Bob in CT It's so amazing how people can go on talking about how they believe in "science" without understanding anything about it, let alone displaying any ability whatsoever to think independently.
"I believe in what my doctors and science tell me to believe and I don't need to think."
Lemming, indeed.
Bob in CT - 20 Apr 2007 14:26 GMT > :: On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:31:28 -0400, Sean > :: <seanthomaskelly@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > > Lemming, indeed. Well, I used to believe in doctors, too, but if we listened to doctors, we'd all be on low fat. My own inability to reconcile how good I felt when I started low carbing, relative to how everyone said that I "needed" carbs for "energy" and how I "needed" a low fat diet to be healthy, lead to the downfall of my beliefs and a search for real answers. After all, I was eating basically no carbs, yet woke up one day and felt fantastic. Why? I mean, how could that happen, when it went against what basically all media and all doctors said was the correct diet? I mean, I "had" to eat grains, right? Steak was the epitome of all evil, wasn't it? All I had to do was continue to woof down rice cakes and brown rice, beans, and oats, and I'd hit nutritional nirvana. Sadly, all I hit was a skyrocketing blood glucose level and horrible blood sugar control. I was at one time every bit the lemming and just as delusional as the original poster. Because of my experience with low carb, which flew in the face of traditional teachings, I just decided to go out and do my own research in order to control my own health. I still am unsure as to what the "real" diet should be, but I have reached the conclusion that saturated fat isn't the evil its portrayed to be. Similarly, the distinction between "good" cholesterol and "bad" cholesterol is either completely wrong or a gross misconception as to what really causes heart disease. The mantra to eat more polyunsaturate fat is, I believe, questionable or entirely wrong. I do believe that eating more whole fruits and vegetables is good, and I'm trying to do so.
Anyway, those are my thoughts for now, and I have to get back to work! ;-)
 Signature Bob in CT
Aaron Baugher - 20 Apr 2007 18:21 GMT > "I believe in what my doctors and science tell me to believe and I > don't need to think." I love this quote I just found yesterday:
The most valuable truths are the ones most people don't believe. They're like undervalued stocks. If you start with them, you'll have the whole field to yourself. So when you find an idea you know is good but most people disagree with, you should not merely ignore their objections, but push aggressively in that direction.
-- Paul Graham, <http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html>
 Signature Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz
"If you hear hoofbeats, you just go ahead and think horsies, not zebras."
Roger Zoul - 23 Apr 2007 13:50 GMT :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> writes: :: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] :: :: -- Paul Graham, http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html Very good. Thanks for posting this.
Mu - 20 Apr 2007 00:45 GMT > I also suspect that the advice > in my Anatomy Physiology textbook oh my
 Signature After four months and being an American in Taipei I never want to hear “Oh your koala very cute” ever again. If there is an off chance that if I do encounter a koala, I may have to punch it in the face as a result. Even a pretty koala looks ugly with a broken nose.
Hollywood - 20 Apr 2007 15:28 GMT > On Feb 3, 7:55 am, "Hollywood" <maxlhar...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > groups for something else. This time the wait is due to the fact that > I waited until I had my new cholesterol test results to tell you. Sorry I missed this. Changing the title tends to lose the thread.
> > That said, I have been eating a lot of sat fat (about 40G per day for > > the past 5.5 months), and have DRAMATICALLY lowered my LDL-C "bad [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > comes after years of high cholesterol levels. A blood clot could still > bring it on even if your cholesterol is low. This is a fatalist's argument. Since I may have had high cholesterol since I was 22 until I was 34, I should not bother to make changes. Really, it depends on how plaque filled your gear is. I can't say. But, if I worry about this all the time, I probably won't leave the house.
> > your doctor believed, and was talking liver destroying statin drugs to > > lower my cholesterol, has changed his tune. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > learned in medical school is based on multiple studies published in > peer-reviewed journals, which is the gold standard of science. So, the idea behind the Cholesterol Con is this: Where did this idea that high cholesterol is bad come from? I think the Framingham study is the first one to provide a link between sat fat, high cholesterol and heart unhealthy folks. But, what if they miffed their read on the data, a bunch of people cite their read, not their data, and now, it's an idee fixe. The facts of the matter is, it's not a what if. It's a what happened. At least that's my understanding.
But, on peer review, med school, etc: What if it's all wrong? Is this possible? Why is it that 50% of the people with heart attacks and strokes have normal cholesterol? Why is it that people with low cholesterol have increased mortality? If those two facts don't make you wonder what they don't know, I dunno what to say to you.
> The book you mention is just one book, probably published by one > author, in a sea of a preponderance of evidence to the contrary. You > do yourself a disservice to believe in it. So, I'm willing to look at a lot and suggest that the consensus might be wrong.
In point of fact, it was a good friend, who also happened to be a new grad from USC Med School, who pointed me to Low Carb. She still fully endorses it several years down the line.
> That said, I've been walking for an hour and a half a day and keeping > my dietary saturated fat down to about 20% of the U.S. recommended [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > while eating a diet high in unrefined carbohydrates. I've lost weight > on this diet. Congrats: Here are my numbers, with time frames of testing: 8/20/06 - 295 tot / 221 LDL / 59 HDL / 75 TriG (this was the day I started PPLP) 10/8/6 - 232 / 167 / 55 / 52 (this is 7 weeks later) 11/26/6 - 211 / 145 / 56 / 51 (diet start + 14 weeks) Total changes: -84 / -76 / -3 / -24 Doc decided he didn't need to see anymore. I project that now, diet week 34, I'm under 200. Nutrient breakdown: Fat: ~50%: Lotta sat & mono fats. Little bit of poly sat. Meat is good Carb: ~5% Protein: ~45%
> I've heard that the spectacular losses made on a low carb diet are due > to the body loosing water due to the lack of carbohydrates. After the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > every three hours and by not eating refined carbohydrates. My Anatomy > Physiology book calls low-carb dieting "unwise". I'm sure you are not suggesting that I have lost 53 lbs of water, right? I've heard this before, but it doesn't happen.
In fairness, I work out. Of course, this is mandatory on Atkins (there is a chapter titled: Exercise: It's not Negotiable.) It's also very strongly recommended on Protein Power Life Plan, which I do.
In extra fairness: I eat 4-6 times a day. Again, it's not a competition, but why wouldn't I maximize my edge? I'm goal focused, so why not pick the best tools to get to goal.
> > If you don't want a heart attack, eat fat and don't smoke. > > I agree with the don't smoke part. I am glad that your cholesterol > went down, but are you sure that there isn't something that your not > telling us that would explain why? See above.
> > -Hollywood > > 265/225/210 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 193/170/140 Nice work 265/211/205
Sean - 20 Apr 2007 23:42 GMT > Sorry I missed this. Changing the title tends to lose the thread. I'm not using a newsreader, so there was no way to save the message until I had the test results, and Google Groups wouldn't let me reply to your post since it had been so long.
> > I had a physician's assistant tell me that the heart attack or stroke > > comes after years of high cholesterol levels. A blood clot could still [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But, if I worry about this all the time, I probably won't leave the > house. I think it's good to know the risk, because if I do have a heart attack or stroke, I'll call 911 right away rather than hoping that isn't the cause and waiting.
> So, the idea behind the Cholesterol Con is this: > Where did this idea that high cholesterol is bad come from? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > possible? Why is it that 50% of the people with heart attacks and > strokes have normal cholesterol? Why is it that people with low Because of the blood clots.
> cholesterol have increased mortality? If those two facts don't make > you wonder what they don't know, I dunno what to say to you. I am able to wrap my head around the idea that medical beliefs can be wrong and will be disproven in the future. Even this particular one. But since I'm just a layman I do the lemming maneuver and trust what the professionals have to say. I'm certainly not worried that my cholesterol is too low, since I believe that in the primordial environment man had to walk a lot to collect food, walking lowers cholesterol, and evolution has made us fit to survive.
> > The book you mention is just one book, probably published by one > > author, in a sea of a preponderance of evidence to the contrary. You > > do yourself a disservice to believe in it. > > So, I'm willing to look at a lot and suggest that the consensus might > be wrong. Yeah.
> Congrats: > Here are my numbers, with time frames of testing: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Doc decided he didn't need to see anymore. I project that now, diet > week 34, I'm under 200. The reason why I don't agree with you on that point is that my doctor told me it takes three months to tell what result a change in diet and/ or exercise makes on cholesterol. So I suspect that the numbers have stayed close to the same between diet start + 14 weeks and now. Provided you haven't changed anything since week 14.
> Nutrient breakdown: > Fat: ~50%: Lotta sat & mono fats. Little bit of poly sat. Meat is good > Carb: ~5% > Protein: ~45% [Lemming alert] I've heard that a diet low in fat is associated with a lower risk of cancer. Also, red meat is associated with colon cancer (it can make you bleed from there, too).
> > I've heard that the spectacular losses made on a low carb diet are due > > to the body loosing water due to the lack of carbohydrates. After the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I'm sure you are not suggesting that I have lost 53 lbs of water, > right? I've heard this before, but it doesn't happen. Oh no! Just the first few days or the first week's worth of weight loss.
> In fairness, I work out. Of course, this is mandatory on Atkins (there > is a chapter titled: Exercise: It's not Negotiable.) It's also very > strongly recommended on Protein Power Life Plan, which I do. My doctor says that exercise helps to regenerate neurons, so you'll stay smarter if you do it.
> In extra fairness: I eat 4-6 times a day. Again, it's not a > competition, but why wouldn't I maximize my edge? I'm goal focused, so > why not pick the best tools to get to goal. Good. I don't think that affects cholesterol.
> > > If you don't want a heart attack, eat fat and don't smoke. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Nice work > 265/211/205 You're almost there :)
Sean, who does understand science, since he took 3 years of it in high school
Mu - 22 Apr 2007 06:29 GMT > I think it's good to know the risk, because if I do have a heart > attack or stroke, I'll call 911 right away rather than hoping that > isn't the cause and waiting. Youth, ain't they grand?
 Signature After four months and being an American in Taipei I never want to hear “Oh your koala very cute” ever again. If there is an off chance that if I do encounter a koala, I may have to punch it in the face as a result. Even a pretty koala looks ugly with a broken nose.
Hollywood - 23 Apr 2007 14:51 GMT > > Sorry I missed this. Changing the title tends to lose the thread. > > I'm not using a newsreader, so there was no way to save the message > until I had the test results, and Google Groups wouldn't let me reply > to your post since it had been so long. No problem.
> > > I had a physician's assistant tell me that the heart attack or stroke > > > comes after years of high cholesterol levels. A blood clot could still [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > attack or stroke, I'll call 911 right away rather than hoping that > isn't the cause and waiting. Yeah, but I object to the "You're boned anyway" kind of mentality that this brings on. The key thing is the level of plaque. If they have a cheap test for this, I would look into it. But I'm not particularly worried.
> > So, the idea behind the Cholesterol Con is this: > > Where did this idea that high cholesterol is bad come from? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Because of the blood clots. Again, how do you assess risk for this? If cholesterol isn't the risk (50% of the time, people with heart attacks have normal or low cholesterol, so that's probably not it), then what is? And why obsess over sat fat if the problem with sat fat is higher cholesterol numbers (higher HDL numbers, btw)? It just doesn't add.
> > cholesterol have increased mortality? If those two facts don't make > > you wonder what they don't know, I dunno what to say to you. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > environment man had to walk a lot to collect food, walking lowers > cholesterol, and evolution has made us fit to survive. So, I'm a layperson, but I took more than a few courses about how to conduct research. Not from a medical perspective, but from a business, economics, and political economics perspective. The stats are the same, though the study subjects are different. Lemming move is good for some. Lemme suggest that the stakes are too high to accept someone else's opinion blindly.
> > > The book you mention is just one book, probably published by one > > > author, in a sea of a preponderance of evidence to the contrary. You [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > stayed close to the same between diet start + 14 weeks and now. > Provided you haven't changed anything since week 14. That's junk science though. I just showed you a change in 7 weeks that is substantial. I wasn't working out yet in October. Some walking, but nothing with lifting. It might be imprudent to want to recheck in less than 3 months (you might not see the full changes or even the extent of the direction of change), but you can see TriG numbers move in as little as 3 weeks. And PP doctors Eades suggest 6 weeks as a reasonable interval. Dr. Atkins suggested 6-8. And my doc was willing to take it at 7 and 7. So, your doc has one idea, others have other ideas. Since I can show you a <3 month change from diet and exercise, your doc's opinion is contrary to my observation. Unless of course your doct suggests 3 months because he feels it's the safe amount of time to see a difference, not the minimum. I suspect this is the case. It is different from what you said though.
> > Nutrient breakdown: > > Fat: ~50%: Lotta sat & mono fats. Little bit of poly sat. Meat is good [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > lower risk of cancer. Also, red meat is associated with colon cancer > (it can make you bleed from there, too). I've heard that fiber is really bad for your intestines. I've also heard that a diet low in fat is associated with gall stones and other gall bladder dysfunctions. So, you takes your risks whatever you do. Personally, I'll let you know if I wind up with bloody crap (none yet in a lifetime of red meat eat) and no colon cancer, yet.
> > > I've heard that the spectacular losses made on a low carb diet are due > > > to the body loosing water due to the lack of carbohydrates. After the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Oh no! Just the first few days or the first week's worth of weight > loss. So, the first ten-15 lebs, water, sure. I'll count that. But it's been more than the first few weeks at this point. Measured by various body fat calculators, I've lost most of the weight from fat, very little from lean body mass. Very cool.
> > In fairness, I work out. Of course, this is mandatory on Atkins (there > > is a chapter titled: Exercise: It's not Negotiable.) It's also very [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Good. I don't think that affects cholesterol. Lifting supposedly helps your cholesterol. Running, not so much.
> > > > If you don't want a heart attack, eat fat and don't smoke. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Sean, who does understand science, since he took 3 years of it in high > school Actually, the 205 is a second goal. I already made my first one, which was to get to 19% bf and reassess. So, I'm there and I'm moving forward. But thanks.
Wow. I'm not even gonna talk to the science courses.
Good luck with your program. You're 1/2 way there.
Sean - 29 Apr 2007 22:31 GMT > > > In extra fairness: I eat 4-6 times a day. Again, it's not a > > > competition, but why wouldn't I maximize my edge? I'm goal focused, so [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Lifting supposedly helps your cholesterol. Running, not so much. I'd be remiss if I didn't say that my doctor told me that using the leg muscles is the thing that generates HDL cholesterol, which brings down the LDL cholesterol. I reason that I think that he's right is that my cholesterol went down after I changed two things: I went from 1/2 hour of walking a day to 1 1/2 hours, and I started eating whole grains. I don't think the whole grains had anything to do with the change in cholesterol, I'm just including that to be complete.
You know, to be completely honest, I think Doc said "using the long muscles of the body" instead of "leg muscles", but I just can't remember.
Sean
Hollywood - 30 Apr 2007 13:42 GMT > > > > In extra fairness: I eat 4-6 times a day. Again, it's not a > > > > competition, but why wouldn't I maximize my edge? I'm goal focused, so [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > muscles of the body" instead of "leg muscles", but I just can't > remember. I had a link the other day about red meat and cancer, how there's no real link according to some scientists in Australia (who were probably funded by the Australian Beef Ranchers Association ;-). At any rate, it's in this month's Men's Health, in the nutrition research roundup towards the front.
Men's Health, btw, is very slowly dumping the Mediterranean diet in favor of a lower carb approach. They are still married to the ABS DIET POWER foods, which are Med Diet, but the revised Testosterone Advantage Plan that's coming out later this year is gonna be more strictly LC than 33% carbs like the first TAP (7 years ago). Since they are voracious research readers and adapters, the gradual shift away from fat phobia to carb reduction has been pretty amazing. Don't get me wrong, they are not Protein Power (although Mary Dan Eades contributed to a breakfast column last month), but they are gradually moving in that direction. The new TAP plan is likely gonna look a lot like PP with more detailed workout advice.
That said, congrats on your numbers and, as with everything, there is no ONE TRUE method. Somethings work for some, others for others, and there are some base rules.
Personally, I wouldn't do slow cardio, but I was walking 5-6 miles per day for a period in my weight loss. I was losing slowly. Then I switched from tracking my steps to doing High Intensity Intervals and the weight starting falling off again. Slow now, so it's time to tweak some things.
Rock on Sean.
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