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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / June 2007

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lissa - 23 Jun 2007 23:44 GMT
I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
basically right in the same spot.  When I stopped it, I lost 4 lbs
within the next few days. I guess my body just wasn't ready for the no
carb diet.  Ever heard of this?
lissa
Jeri - 24 Jun 2007 01:29 GMT
> I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
> a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
> basically right in the same spot.  When I stopped it, I lost 4 lbs
> within the next few days. I guess my body just wasn't ready for the no
> carb diet.  Ever heard of this?
> lissa

First, why would you eat a no carb diet? Did you read any of the low carb
books (Atkins, Protein Power, Sugar Busters, Carbohydrate Addict's Diet, Dr.
Bernstein's Diabetes Solution)? Not a single one of them advises eating no
carb.

Second, calories count even if some people may not have to count calories.
In other words, if you eat more calories than you burn it doesn't matter how
few carbs you eat you will still gain weight.
Signature

Jeri
"Change is inevitable, except from vending machines."

lissa - 24 Jun 2007 04:23 GMT
> > I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
> > a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Jeri
> "Change is inevitable, except from vending machines."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got the no carb diet from a doctor- and had asked 2 more doctors
what they thought about it- no prob they said.  I did follow this diet
with great success about 6 years ago.  I was doing it the same, and
was surprised that it wasn't working for me this time.  I was on this
diet for 4-5 months 6 years ago, and lost 65 lbs then. Hence my
surprise that it wasn't working. Oh well.
lissa
Hannah Gruen - 24 Jun 2007 09:53 GMT
"lissa" <kuulrunnins@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> > I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.

> I got the no carb diet from a doctor-

Well, then, you either got bad &/or insufficient information from that
doctor, or you seriously misunderstood.

There really is effectively no such thing as a "no carb" diet. Even if there
were, it would be fairly difficult to do and not as healthy as a "low carb"
diet. All the major, popular ketogenic or near-ketogenic diets are "low
carb," not "no carb."

I'd seriously advise you to get hold of a book about a LOW-carb diet, and
read it carefully. Atkins or Eades (Protein Power) are both good sources of
information.

HG
Roger Zoul - 24 Jun 2007 10:12 GMT
:: I got the no carb diet from a doctor- and had asked 2 more doctors
:: what they thought about it- no prob they said.

I find this really hard to believe...you got 3 doctors to bless a NO carb
diet? Which three?

 I did follow this
:: diet with great success about 6 years ago.  I was doing it the same,
:: and was surprised that it wasn't working for me this time.  I was on
:: this diet for 4-5 months 6 years ago, and lost 65 lbs then. Hence my
:: surprise that it wasn't working. Oh well.
:: lissa

And you quit and regained 65 lbs?  This is why you need to read the damn
book.
Jeri - 24 Jun 2007 13:05 GMT
>>> I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month
>>> and
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> surprise that it wasn't working. Oh well.
> lissa

I don't believe for a minute that you got three doctors to approve a zero
carb diet. Either it wasn't zero carb or they had no idea what foods contain
carbs. Zero carb would mean you ate nothing but pure meat and fat and for
4-5 months....no vegetables, fruits, nuts, eggs, seafood (other than fish).

How many calories are you currently eating and how much do you weigh? How
much exercise are you getting?
Signature

Jeri
"Change is inevitable, except from vending machines."

jcderkoeing - 24 Jun 2007 04:04 GMT
>I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
> a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
> basically right in the same spot.  When I stopped it, I lost 4 lbs
> within the next few days. I guess my body just wasn't ready for the no
> carb diet.  Ever heard of this?

What you describe is very common among those that are too idiotic to
understand and follow a low carb diet.

You must leave the group immediately.

HTH
lissa - 24 Jun 2007 04:25 GMT
> >I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
> > a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> HTH

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And you, well you are just nasty!

lissa
AnonomissX aka ~Melodie~ - 24 Jun 2007 17:41 GMT
>> >I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
>> > a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> lissa

Hey girl, High five!!

Now go and do yourself a BIG favor:

INVEST in the book "Protein Power" by Drs Dan and Mary Eades.
READ the book, take 1-2 weeks if you need or want.
THEN follow a protein/low carb diet.
THEN you will have invested your time and money wisely.

Signature

~Melodie~ Aka AnonomissX

ElBob-O - 24 Jun 2007 22:32 GMT
> > What you describe is very common among those that are too idiotic to
> > understand and follow a low carb diet.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree. This is not appropriate language for most discussion groups,
especially a support group.
jcderkoeing - 24 Jun 2007 22:58 GMT
> > What you describe is very common among those that are too idiotic to
> > understand and follow a low carb diet.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

>I agree. This is not appropriate language for most discussion groups,
>especially a support group.

You're right, ElBlob-O, calling someone nasty is beyond the pale.
Cubit - 24 Jun 2007 15:52 GMT
Did you read the book?

"Doctor Atkins New Diet Revolution"

Also, weight changes need to be judged over about 4 weeks.  Anything shorter
is probably just random body changes.

>I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
> a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
> basically right in the same spot.  When I stopped it, I lost 4 lbs
> within the next few days. I guess my body just wasn't ready for the no
> carb diet.  Ever heard of this?
> lissa
Aaron Baugher - 26 Jun 2007 13:37 GMT
> Did you read the book?
>
> "Doctor Atkins New Diet Revolution"

I hate to nitpick (no, really!) but it bugs me to see DANDR described
as "the book," which seems to happen fairly often.  It's one of the
books, certainly one of the most important ones in the field, but
hardly THE book.  I think 'Protein Power' is also very good, but I
don't think you can get the full picture from any single one of them.

Signature

Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Susan - 26 Jun 2007 14:47 GMT
> I hate to nitpick (no, really!) but it bugs me to see DANDR described
> as "the book," which seems to happen fairly often.  It's one of the
> books, certainly one of the most important ones in the field, but
> hardly THE book.  I think 'Protein Power' is also very good, but I
> don't think you can get the full picture from any single one of them.

At least Protein Power is completely accurate on the science.  Atkins'
books are so bombastic, self referencing, dumbed down and wrongheaded
that I find him very hard to read.

Susan
Roger Zoul - 26 Jun 2007 16:30 GMT
:: "Cubit" <no@not.not> writes:
::
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
:: hardly THE book.  I think 'Protein Power' is also very good, but I
:: don't think you can get the full picture from any single one of them.

It is THE book in the sense that it sort of started it all and has the
"lion's share" or "mind's share" in terms of what people think they think of
low carb.  It's certainly not the only book or even the best book as far as
low carb is concerned.
Doug Freyburger - 26 Jun 2007 20:21 GMT
> > Did you read the book?

As long as you select one of the popular ones it almost
doesn't matter which one.

> > "Doctor Atkins New Diet Revolution"

That is the most popular among the good choices.

> I hate to nitpick (no, really!) but it bugs me to see DANDR described
> as "the book," which seems to happen fairly often.  It's one of the
> books, certainly one of the most important ones in the field, but
> hardly THE book.

It is the most popular, but just how much popular
equals good is open to debate - MacDonalds is the
world's most popular restaurant.  It is also the
starting point of any of the modern plans.

The plan as described in DANDR has one additional
advantage over most of the other low carb plans - It
describes a process not a menu once you have
completed the first 14 days.  What each person eats
on Atkins is completely customized according to the
results from the foods you've eaten.  Problem foods are
avoided and carb counts are set according to your own
body's reactions.

Because of that customization it works for a very large
percentage of people who actually follow its directions.
Doctor Atkins claimed that it worked for 100% of people
though that claim is definitely an exaggeration.

But also because of that customization relatively few
people actually follow the directions.  What most people
call Atkins misses its big advantage, maybe because
the directions are hard to understand, maybe because
few believe the sort of advice that describes a process
not a menu.

> I think 'Protein Power' is also very good,

Like any of the popular books it has its limitations.
The science is better than DANDR but Drs Eades did
end up rethinking their science and reversed there
stance on at least one topic - ratios of essential
fatty acids to target.

Which brings up an interesting target - If the fully
customized process of DANDR actually works for the
few who do it, does it really matter that the science
is poor in the book itself?  Dr A didn't have to
understand the science to design a process that
worked.  He had to gather data on what works and
refine his process based on that data.  He never did
publish any data.

> but I
> don't think you can get the full picture from any single one of them.

The best low carb plan will draw from the strengths of
several well known plans.  Carb counting from Atkins,
protein counting from Eades and so on.
Roger Zoul - 26 Jun 2007 20:39 GMT
:: Aaron Baugher <aaron_baug...@yahoo.com> wrote:
::: "Cubit" <n...@not.not> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
:: world's most popular restaurant.  It is also the
:: starting point of any of the modern plans.

Make that fast food joint...

:: The plan as described in DANDR has one additional
:: advantage over most of the other low carb plans - It
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
:: few believe the sort of advice that describes a process
:: not a menu.

Why don't you write up your take on what the Atkins process is?  I'd buy a
copy....

::: I think 'Protein Power' is also very good,
::
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
:: few who do it, does it really matter that the science
:: is poor in the book itself?

To some it will.....to most it won't.

::  Dr A didn't have to
:: understand the science to design a process that
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
:: several well known plans.  Carb counting from Atkins,
:: protein counting from Eades and so on.

How many of the roll-your-own plans work?  How many plans like there are
there?
Aaron Baugher - 27 Jun 2007 13:02 GMT
> The plan as described in DANDR has one additional
> advantage over most of the other low carb plans - It
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> avoided and carb counts are set according to your own
> body's reactions.

> Because of that customization it works for a very large
> percentage of people who actually follow its directions.
> Doctor Atkins claimed that it worked for 100% of people
> though that claim is definitely an exaggeration.

> But also because of that customization relatively few
> people actually follow the directions.  What most people
> call Atkins misses its big advantage, maybe because
> the directions are hard to understand, maybe because
> few believe the sort of advice that describes a process
> not a menu.

It's always seemed too picky to me.  As I understand it, you increase
your carbs weekly by 5g/day until you stop losing weight, right?  That
assumes a scale that's more accurate than most, and more accurate carb
counting than is necessary in Induction or on other plans.  It's much
easier to keep your carbs *below* XX/day than to keep them *at* XX/day
plus-or-minus a couple.  That kind of accuracy means charting
everything you eat, which is a lot of extra trouble.  

It also assumes fairly accurate food labeling, which you simply can't
count on.  The can of sauerkraut I just bought says 1g/serving, which
really means .5-1.5, or an error margin of 50%.  (And that doesn't
count the additional 10% margin that the USDA allows.)  If you apply
that to a 40g daily menu, you could really be eating anywhere between
20g-60g.  You might think you had 35g yesterday and 40g today, but you
really had 45g yesterday and 25 today!  Granted, things that come in
bigger servings don't have error margins that high, so a real menu
will never have that large a range, and days will average out somewhat
over a week, but thinking that you can accurately count your carbs
closer than 5g/day seems overly optimistic, to me.

>> I think 'Protein Power' is also very good,

> Like any of the popular books it has its limitations.
> The science is better than DANDR but Drs Eades did
> end up rethinking their science and reversed there
> stance on at least one topic - ratios of essential
> fatty acids to target.

Yes, my girlfriend recently read through the PP Life Plan booklet, and
she mentioned that they said something about trimming meat and not
eating too much fat, which surprised me, because I think they've
gotten over that by now.  I think when a lot of these people got
started, they understood carbs=bad, but didn't realize just how much
they were going to end up challenging the rest of the diet orthodoxy.
If you do the math on PP, it's clear that you're going to have to get
at least 60-70% of your calories from fat, but it's like they couldn't
really bring themselves to say that out loud when they first started
creating their plan.

> Which brings up an interesting target - If the fully
> customized process of DANDR actually works for the
> few who do it, does it really matter that the science
> is poor in the book itself?

Not really.  I'm sure the process has worked for many people who
didn't read the science, and for even more who never researched enough
elsewhere to understand the science anyway.  Astronomers who thought
the Earth was the center of the universe were able to predict eclipses
and the movement of the stars just as well as we can now.

If I wrote a book recommending an all meat and broccoli diet, and
said it would make you lose weight because the meat gives you the lean
energy of the animal's spirit and because broccoli has magic powers,
it'd be hogwash, but people who followed it would lose weight.

> Dr A didn't have to understand the science to design a process that
> worked.  He had to gather data on what works and refine his process
> based on that data.  He never did publish any data.

Sure, that's inductive reasoning, which can be just as valid as
deductive.  Start by observing and collecting data, look for patterns,
and build a theory based on the patterns.  The problem that usually
appears with this method is that the researcher already *has* a theory
in mind, so instead of letting the patterns lead to a theory, he ends
up massaging the data to get patterns that fit the theory he already
has.  (See: global warming, HIV-AIDS, the Piltdown Man, etc.)  

It works when the researcher is truly objective and open to any theory
that fits the patterns, or sometimes because he gets lucky and his
theory happens to have been right in the first place.

Signature

Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Bill Eitner - 24 Jun 2007 19:33 GMT
> I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
> a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
> basically right in the same spot.  When I stopped it, I lost 4 lbs
> within the next few days. I guess my body just wasn't ready for the no
> carb diet.  Ever heard of this?

    Need more info.

    Were you keeping a journal or using a software program like
    Fitday?  If so, you can provide enough data so that we can
    try to figure out what went wrong.  Include as much data
    as possible including height, weight, age, bodyfat percentage
    activity level, sleep quantity and quality, waking body
    temperature, recent illness--anything that might provide
    a clue.

    It's odd that you lost weight within a few days of stopping.
    Low carb diets cause water loss.  When carbs are reintroduced
    there's usually a period of water weight gain.  There's
    also the "woosh" concept where weight loss stalls and then
    all of a sudden you see a significant loss.  It seems like
    that's what may have happened.

    As for leaving the group, if you really think low carb isn't
    for you anymore, alt.support.diet might be more appropriate.

    Further, it may be time for you to put some time in developing
    a diet that will work.  What I mean by that is experiment with
    caloric levels, macronutrient ratios and exercise variations
    until you figure out what works best *for you*.  That's the
    method proven to work best in the long run.  There are some
    tools in my online briefcase that can help with that.  Here's
    a link: http://briefcase.yahoo.com/kd6tas
    The diet and exercise journal software is like fitday and can
    be downloaded and used offline on your local system.  The
    metabolic typing test gives you an idea which of the three
    basic diet types (low carb, low fat, or moderate) might be
    the best one to start with.  From there you can experiment
    further by fine tuning within a basic diet type or even cycling
    between types to see if you can improve results and increase
    variety.  The micronutrient chart is from Protein Power
    Lifeplan.  It provides an excellent jumping off point into
    micronutrient supplementation for weight loss and other issues.
    The eating log is a basic excel spreadsheet that can be used
    for maintenance and/or when one wants to try an instinctive,
    portion controlled approach.  It focuses mostly on mindfulness
    and emotions during the eating experience rather than on
    consumption statistics.  It's an end-stage tool for those who
    have paid their dues and feel that they can handle that level
    of dietary freedom.

    In summary, in my opinion, one-size-fits-all diets often fail.
    Lasting success calls for knowledge, data and persistence.
    The dieter has to be into it enough to do their own homework.
    Use a journal to gather raw data, experiment with the variables,
    and persist through thick and thin.  Eventually what's best for
    a particular dieter is teased out of the mass of possibilities.

    Good luck with this new phase of your adventure,

    Bill Eitner
Pat - 25 Jun 2007 01:18 GMT
"lissa"  so long as you don't include an exhortation to visit your "blog
spot," you can stay.

Now, go read the book.
XiaoZhen - 25 Jun 2007 04:48 GMT
> I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
> a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
> basically right in the same spot.  When I stopped it, I lost 4 lbs
> within the next few days. I guess my body just wasn't ready for the no
> carb diet.  Ever heard of this?
> lissa

Low carb support, I do hope, is a group for all low carbs. I read a
lot about food that real people eat.

I didn't do the total low carb, but added a lot of vegetables and cut
some fat, and lost 14 kgs in a year.
I have been maintaining my 49 to 51kg for almost a year now.

Xiaozhen
Roger Zoul - 25 Jun 2007 12:17 GMT
:: I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month and
:: a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds down-
:: basically right in the same spot.  When I stopped it, I lost 4 lbs
:: within the next few days. I guess my body just wasn't ready for the
:: no carb diet.  Ever heard of this?
:: lissa

Are you a troll?  If not, then you don't need to leave the group.  It will
be wise for you to read  & learn about low carb lifestyle, however.

Consider adding some exercise to your life and consider using a logging tool
such as fitday.com or something else.
Aaron Baugher - 26 Jun 2007 13:30 GMT
> I have had to stop my low carb/no carb plan.  After about a month
> and a half, I just was not losing weight. 2 pounds up, two pounds
> down- basically right in the same spot.  When I stopped it, I lost 4
> lbs within the next few days. I guess my body just wasn't ready for
> the no carb diet.  Ever heard of this?

I'm not sure if this is a troll or a massive case of confusion, but
I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and answer it seriously.

First of all, I've heard many people say that they (or a friend) went
on a "no-carb" diet, when that wasn't true at all.  The only foods on
a no-carb diet would be unprocessed muscle meats (nothing like hot
dogs or liver; they contain carbs), butter, and oil.  That's it.  If
you ate any eggs, cheese, vegetables, sour cream, anything else at
all, it was not no-carb.  Now, it *is* possible to eat a no-carb diet,
at least for a while, but people who know what they're talking about
call that a "meat fast" or "fat fast" (depending on how they do it),
so saying "low carb/no carb" as if there's not a huge freakin'
difference between the two just makes you look clueless.

Second, I think someone else already pointed this out, but it would be
almost impossible for what you have described to happen.  When you eat
few (or no) carbs, your body gradually removes and burns excess
glucose that it has stored away, which it used water to store.  That
means that low-carbers normally see an immediate loss of a few pounds
of water weight in the first week of the diet.  It also means that if
you go from low-carb to high-carb, you'll pick those few pounds right
back up as your body replenishes those stores.  (It's easy to get
dehydrated in the process, as those of us who have fallen off the diet
a few times can tell you.)  Perhaps your scale is broken.

If your diet didn't seem to be working, wouldn't it have made sense to
ask for help with it while you were doing it?  It's not too late,
though, if you really want to understand what you're doing.  Read a
couple of the books people have recommended -- commonly available at
libraries and used book stores -- and post a few typical daily menus
from your low-carb efforts, and people here will be glad to help you
figure out what went wrong.

Signature

Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

 
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