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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / July 2007Too Much Protein?
I've never been one to keep a food journal or count anything except a vague idea of how many carbs I'm getting. When you're eating very low-carb foods like meat, eggs, and greens, you know your carbs will always be under the limit, so it never seemed necessary. Whenever I stuck with low-carb religiously, I lost weight while eating as much as I wanted whenever I was hungry -- simple as that. Since getting my BG tester and scaring myself back to the righteous path, it doesn't seem to be as easy this time. The cravings are hanging around more, and even after several weeks, I find myself eating a *lot* to keep them at bay -- I'd guess 3000 calories easy. I'm not gaining weight, of course, but I don't feel like I'm losing it either; and while I've felt some increase in energy, it hasn't been as strong as before. Maybe a lot of this is because my insulin resistance has gotten worse; that seems like the most likely reason. In any case, that got me to actually paying attention to what I'm eating (though no actual journaling yet), and I've come to the conclusion that I'm eating way too much protein -- enough that the surplus is getting converted into enough glucose to keep the cravings going and maybe even keep me out of ketosis. Protein Power recommends 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd guess I'm getting well over 200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all the meat and eggs I eat. After all, if I limit myself to 30g of carbs (and I rarely get that much) and 120g of protein, here's the math just to get me up to 2000 calories a day -- and that's low for a guy my size, and definitely lower than I'm taking in now: carbs: 30g x 4 = 120 calories protein: 120g x 4 = 480 calories fat: 156g x 9 = 1400 calories There aren't many foods that give you that kind of a fat/protein ratio! Cheese comes close, but most meats don't. Even pork rinds are 8/5 protein/fat. And if you eat some foods with a high protein/fat ratio, like chicken or eggs, then you need even more on the fat side of the ledger to make those numbers work out. Nuts will do it, but they're expensive, and I can only eat so many. As I pointed out to my girlfriend as she watched me do the math, if I eat two sticks of butter every day, I'll be all set! So I'm having to change my thinking a bit, to find more ways to get fat into my diet and bring that protein number down. I've grudgingly started journaling my meals, at least for a couple weeks, to see just how much I've been overdoing it. My girlfriend (who is working into LC now, having tested her own BG) wants to try making hollandaise sauce, which looks to be very high in fat, and I'm planning to start making alfredo sauce too -- just without the noodles. I already slop plenty of mayo on everything it tastes good on, but maybe I can find more ways to use that. I'd really rather not just eat butter by the stick.  SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz Protein Power recommends > 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd guess I'm getting well over > 200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all the meat and eggs I eat. Holy sh.t. Not only does a significant amount of that convert to glucose, but it stimulates more insulin release than carbs do, just slower. Susan :: x-no-archive: yes :: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] :: :: Susan I find it very hard to believe he could be eating that much protein on a daily basis. Until he starts journaling, it's just speculation. Aaron Baugher wrote: >> Protein Power recommends 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd >> guess I'm getting well over 200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all >> the meat and eggs I eat. Susan replied: > Not only does a significant amount of that convert to glucose, but > it stimulates more insulin release than carbs do, just slower. Right. Hence my concern. But do the math: if you're taking in 120 calories in carbs (and Induction would be lower than that), if even half your other calories come from protein on a 2000 calorie diet, that'd be 940 calories, or 235 grams of protein. So if you're eating a low-carb diet, and you aren't starving yourself, you're either eating a *LOT* more fat than anyone else would consider normal or you're getting too much protein. The calories are coming from *somewhere*. Then Roger Zoul replied: > I find it very hard to believe he could be eating that much protein > on a daily basis. Until he starts journaling, it's just speculation. True. It hasn't been unusual for me to eat 6 eggs and 1.5 pounds of meat in a day, though. At 7 grams of protein per egg or ounce of meat, that's 210g right there, not counting whatever cheese or toppings might have been involved. I'll have accurate numbers soon. I'm not bragging here, or saying I've found a flaw in the system. But again, the math is pretty simple. If you're getting 120 calories from 30g of carbs, and 480 calories from 120g of protein (and that's the largest amount PP recommends for the largest people), that leaves a LOT of calories to get from fat. You won't get anywhere near that eating chicken and salads, or even burgers and salads, or even bacon and eggs. There aren't many foods that will give you a lot of (healthy) fat without also giving you plenty of protein, and the numbers say we need more fat than protein. If I had a beef with Protein Power, it would be that they talk a lot about building your meals around *a* protein source. I'm supposed to get 40g of protein per meal, which means a 6 oz. burger. Ok, so that's on my plate, now what? I've already got the protein, now what foods can I eat that will fill me up the rest of the way with fat and trace amounts of carbs and not add more protein? I'm kind of screwed at that point, unless I put a half-stick of butter on my burger. More likely, I'm going to have to back up and make the burger 4 oz., so I've got some protein left in the bank to spend on some higher-fat foods like nuts or cheese. That's fine, but it's a little more complex than just, "start with an item that covers your protein and build around it." SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz > Right. Hence my concern. But do the math: if you're taking in 120 > calories in carbs (and Induction would be lower than that), if even [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you're getting too much protein. The calories are coming from > *somewhere*. That's what the fat is for. Plus, unless you're dragging boulders up a hill all day, WTF do you need so many calories for? > True. It hasn't been unusual for me to eat 6 eggs and 1.5 pounds of > meat in a day, though. At 7 grams of protein per egg or ounce of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (healthy) fat without also giving you plenty of protein, and the > numbers say we need more fat than protein. That's what the fat is for. > If I had a beef with Protein Power, it would be that they talk a lot > about building your meals around *a* protein source. I'm supposed to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > complex than just, "start with an item that covers your protein and > build around it." I don't know why you feel you need something to "fill" you up? The idea is to eat til you're no longer hungry, not til you're filled up. Tonight, for example, my husband and I each had about 6 oz. of mahi mahi, marinated and grilled. I sauteed a lb. of baby spinach in olive oil with garlic and red pepper flakes and we split that. We each had salad of mixed baby greens with nuts, cheese and tomato with dressing. Satiating. Susan > That's what the fat is for. Plus, unless you're dragging boulders > up a hill all day, WTF do you need so many calories for? 2000 calories is "so many"? The USDA puts 2000 and 2500 calorie info on labels as examples for smaller and larger people. The rule of thumb I've seen in this group for maintenance is 10 calories/pound, which would be 2350 for me. I just tried a couple "daily calorie requirements" calculators I found online, and they say a 5'10", 235 lb., 38-year-old man who gets moderate exercise needs around 3200 calories! When the first one said that, I thought it was broken, but I'm getting that result consistently. And some days, I do drag boulders, or large fence posts and farm implements, anyway. > I don't know why you feel you need something to "fill" you up? The > idea is to eat til you're no longer hungry, not til you're filled > up. "Filled up" means the same thing as "no longer hungry" to me. I don't mean stuffed, just feeling full -- not feeling the need for more. I only get that stuffed-and-needing-to-lie-down-and-stretch-out feeling when I eat a lot of carbs. > Tonight, for example, my husband and I each had about 6 oz. of > mahi mahi, marinated and grilled. I sauteed a lb. of baby spinach in > olive oil with garlic and red pepper flakes and we split that. We > each had salad of mixed baby greens with nuts, cheese and tomato with > dressing. Sounds great. I rubbed two 4-ounce tilapia fillets with spices and fried them in lard, then ate them with some mayo and cayenne pepper. That gave me my 40g of protein, but only 27g of fat, so I'll have to work on that. Some veggies swimming in butter/cheese sauce should do the trick. SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz :: Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> writes: :: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] :: work on that. Some veggies swimming in butter/cheese sauce should do :: the trick. That gave you 160 kals from protein and 243 kcals from fat. Also, when you fry your fish, how do you really know how much fat that adds to what you eat? A better plan would be to make some kind of sauce for the fish. > > Sounds great. I rubbed two 4-ounce tilapia fillets with spices > > and fried them in lard, then ate them with some mayo and cayenne > > pepper. That gave me my 40g of protein, but only 27g of fat, so > > I'll have to work on that. Some veggies swimming in butter/cheese > > sauce should do the trick. > That gave you 160 kals from protein and 243 kcals from fat. Yep, but that's not enough fat. For every 480 calories from protein, I need 1400 calories from fat, so for 160 calories protein, I needed 467 from fat. I'm getting there, though. When I cooked the other two fillets the next day, I had green beans with butter and dipped the fish in butter too, so it was much better. > Also, when you fry your fish, how do you really know how much fat > that adds to what you eat? That's a good question. Basically, I don't, and I'm already seeing the limits of trying to track all this stuff with much accuracy. It'll be fine for me, since I only need ball-park figures, but I can't imagine trying to track my calories with any less than 10% margin for error each way. And to be sure I was eating 35g carbs in my third week of Atkins OWL, and not 30g or 40g? Not a chance. Yesterday, I started the day with four strips of bacon from a locally-butchered hog from my parents' farm (no nutrition label) and four home-raised eggs. Is the bacon thick or thin, lean or non-lean? I'd guess thick, and I could weigh it to determine that. I'd guess non-lean,because the hog was about 100 pounds over normal market weight, but the bacon looks a lot meatier than store-bought bacon, so who knows? The eggs look about extra-large, but the size varies depending on the age and health of the chickens and the weather. The chickens run around outside and eat bugs and stuff that most egg-laying chickens don't get, so does that affect the protein or fat or calorie content? Who knows. For lunch, I had the fish which soaked up an indeterminate amount of lard, which is homemade, so I don't know its exact fat content anyway. (Water content varies from batch to batch.) In this case, the green beans were from a can, so I had a label to work with, but the USDA allows a 10% margin for error each way, and then there's the rounding. So while the label says 2g net carbs per serving, that really means something between 1.35 and 2.75. And if I start eating home-grown beans that may not be the same variety as the commercially grown ones, how much will they vary nutritionally? We know that home-grown vegetables are much different from commercially grown ones in things like vitamin and mineral content, but how about the caloric components? The ground beef I used for burgers for supper was 75% fat, so that should be easy to figure -- except how much fat cooked out of them, and how much cooked into them from cooking them in lard? Again, who knows. There are enough variables here to skew a daily calorie total by hundreds. Fortunately, I'm not concerned about calories, or about fat particularly, except to make sure that a lack of fat isn't causing me to eat way too much protein. Ball-park figures are fine for me. I just want to get my protein in the 120-160 gram range and keep my carbs under 30. > A better plan would be to make some kind of sauce for the fish. Plain butter on it was pretty good, but a thicker sauce sounds great. By the way, as long as I'm ranting, why the heck does FitDay make me login several times a day? It's just a food journal, and it has tighter security than my online bank account. Good grief. SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> writes: :: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] :: :: Yep, but that's not enough fat. Yes, but it got you your protein quota and you can get the extra fat by eating a few macademica nuts. Wouldn't that be like a treat? For every 480 calories from protein, :: I need 1400 calories from fat, so for 160 calories protein, I needed :: 467 from fat. I'm not sure of your goals, but losing weight still boils down to burning more calories than you eat. Both protein and fat have properties with help diminish appetite to better allow you to lower your food intake. But what I'm really trying to say is that I personally don't believe one will last long with such a hard concentration on numbers, which I think is a problem with all these plans. With Atkins, though, you really only paying attention to carbs.....it would seem that with PP, you're worrying about carbs and protein, and trying to create some kind of balance. If you ask me, this will drive you nuts. Those of us who have lost weight by courting calories more or less just follow low carb and limit calories to a point where we get a rate of weight loss we are happy with. That usually means enough protein. LCers generally don't end up losing muscle mass - they mostly gain it. I'm getting there, though. When I cooked the other :: two fillets the next day, I had green beans with butter and dipped :: the fish in butter too, so it was much better. ::: Also, when you fry your fish, how do you really know how much fat ::: that adds to what you eat? :: :: That's a good question. Basically, I don't, and I'm already seeing :: the limits of trying to track all this stuff with much accuracy. That's why I avoid frying anything. For me, every thing goes in the oven or on the Foreman grill. I simply don't fry anything...too messy and you have no idea of what calories you're getting. So, somethings you'll want to avoid if you want to make tracking easier. :: It'll be fine for me, since I only need ball-park figures, but I :: can't imagine trying to track my calories with any less than 10% :: margin for error each way. And to be sure I was eating 35g carbs in :: my third week of Atkins OWL, and not 30g or 40g? Not a chance. Well, few people around here actually do Atkins at the level of finding those critical carb levels. Notions like those are the subjects of books written by doctors who need something to fill the pages...people like to see a plan....any plan....and they want it to seem well devised... In the real world, however, one doesn't really need to do that to be successful with weight loss, or control of diabetes, or to simply live a LC life. Hence, there is LC theory and there is LC practice. IMO, LC practice via Atkins means that you simply control carb intake to maintain weight loss or control BG. The controled carb intake enables appetite suppression which helps one to eat less. Skill develops over time which further enables one to successfullly adopt a LC lifestyle that works into the long term (important for maintenance and BG control). I can tell you that worrying about 30g or 40g is not what's most important. However, controlled carb intake to levels that help avoid cravings and allow weight loss and control of BG is what's important. :: Yesterday, I started the day with four strips of bacon from a :: locally-butchered hog from my parents' farm (no nutrition label) and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] :: egg-laying chickens don't get, so does that affect the protein or fat :: or calorie content? Who knows. Well, if you're tracking for the purpose of weight loss, it's good to simplify things. Buy store-bought bacon since generally those terms in question will likely apply. :: For lunch, I had the fish which soaked up an indeterminate amount of :: lard, which is homemade, so I don't know its exact fat content :: anyway. (Water content varies from batch to batch.) That works for living a LC lifestyle and control of BG...but it may not work so well for weight loss....that depends. It would have worked for me when I weighed 367 lbs, but it would never work for me now. In this case, :: the green beans were from a can, so I had a label to work with, but :: the USDA allows a 10% margin for error each way, and then there's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :: grown ones in things like vitamin and mineral content, but how about :: the caloric components? See, the mere act of counting will likely result in your having better control of what goes in. If weight loss is your goal, you'll eventually notice if you're losing. If not, it may be more that you're eating too much rather than eating too many carbs. Likely, if you're counting and controling intake, the actual carb level won't be a problem. Moreover, please don't assume that they only reason you want to eat is because of too many carbs (or too much protein). Others may disagree with me on this issue, but some people just like to eat. Plain and simple. Blaming that desire on too many carbs is to ignore who we really are. BTW, I'm one of those people who like to eat. :: The ground beef I used for burgers for supper was 75% fat, so that :: should be easy to figure -- except how much fat cooked out of them, :: and how much cooked into them from cooking them in lard? Again, who :: knows. There are enough variables here to skew a daily calorie total :: by hundreds. Use the numbers for cooked beef and don't worry. If weight loss is your goal, you adjust intake and output to produce weight loss. Sure, you'll have inaccuracies in every thing you monitor, but you can still make it work. :: Fortunately, I'm not concerned about calories, or about fat :: particularly, except to make sure that a lack of fat isn't causing me :: to eat way too much protein. I'm dubious of these claims. There is lot of research on the appetite suppression properties of protein. I've not seen one thing published (research-wise) that says that too much protein ramps up appetite because of conversion to glucose. Ball-park figures are fine for me. I :: just want to get my protein in the 120-160 gram range and keep my :: carbs under 30. That seems rather simple compared to your discussion in this post! :) ::: A better plan would be to make some kind of sauce for the fish. :: :: Plain butter on it was pretty good, but a thicker sauce sounds great. I had a great recipe for Talipia. I'll see if I can find it. :: By the way, as long as I'm ranting, why the heck does FitDay make me :: login several times a day? It's just a food journal, and it has :: tighter security than my online bank account. Good grief. In practice, it's no big deal. I make fitday.com my homepage. As browsers will remember your username/password, it's just a matter of clicking the sign-in button. > Yes, but it got you your protein quota and you can get the extra fat > by eating a few macademica nuts. Wouldn't that be like a treat? Sure, although I'd rather have pecans or almonds. They'll work too. Considerably more expensive than hamburger for the frugal LCer, though. > But what I'm really trying to say is that I personally don't believe > one will last long with such a hard concentration on numbers, which > I think is a problem with all these plans. With Atkins, though, you > really only paying attention to carbs.....it would seem that with > PP, you're worrying about carbs and protein, and trying to create > some kind of balance. If you ask me, this will drive you nuts. Yeah, I don't plan to be that particular about it; I was just realizing how difficult it would be to ever know exactly how much you're getting of everything, especially calories. It's no wonder "just cutting back" on calories almost always fails, no matter how much people will tell you to do it. If you're eating 2000 calories and you want to cut back to 1900, it'd be extremely difficult to verify that you were doing it. As you say, PP requires you to track two numbers, protein and carbs, but both are limits: less than X grams carbs and more than Y grams protein. That leaves you a lot of room to maneuver. Atkins OWL, with its requirement that I eat 30g of carbs one week and 35g the next, would be a lot harder to do accurately, at least with my eating and cooking style. But that's why there are multiple plans, right? > Well, if you're tracking for the purpose of weight loss, it's good > to simplify things. Buy store-bought bacon since generally those > terms in question will likely apply. No thanks. I like to know where my food comes from as much as possible. It's ok, though. If I keep my carbs under control for a couple months and my weight doesn't drop, I can cut one piece of bacon out of my breakfast without needing to know how many calories it has. > That works for living a LC lifestyle and control of BG...but it may > not work so well for weight loss....that depends. It would have > worked for me when I weighed 367 lbs, but it would never work for me > now. Sure, it may not. Since finding out about my BG issues, I've finally been able to shift from thinking of this as a diet I need to do for six months, to a way of eating for the rest of my life. So for now, my main concern is training myself to eat this way all the time and be satisfied with it. That's why I've been exploring things like Splenda that I didn't bother with before. If I were only doing this as a diet long enough to lose 40 pounds, it wouldn't matter that much if the meals were boring and repetitive and I never got a dessert; but as a way of eating for the rest of my life, I'm going to need more variety. There's a good chance that I'm going to lose weight in the process -- my mom told me yesterday my face is looking thinner -- so I'm not going to focus on that unless I have a genuine stall. If that happens, that'll be the time to start thinking about calories or other causes. > :: By the way, as long as I'm ranting, why the heck does FitDay make me > :: login several times a day? It's just a food journal, and it has > :: tighter security than my online bank account. Good grief. > In practice, it's no big deal. I make fitday.com my homepage. As > browsers will remember your username/password, it's just a matter of > clicking the sign-in button. Sure, I've done that, but it's still an annoying extra click-and-wait. SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz > By the way, as long as I'm ranting, why the heck does FitDay make me > login several times a day? It's just a food journal, and it has > tighter security than my online bank account. Good grief. I have a program in my online briefcase that I use for journaling. It's compact, stable and most importantly it works on your local system. You can download a copy and use it if you'd like. Here's a link: http://briefcase.yahoo.com/kd6tas >> By the way, as long as I'm ranting, why the heck does FitDay make me >> login several times a day? It's just a food journal, and it has >> tighter security than my online bank account. Good grief. I don't know what you mean Aaron? Why *must* you login several times a day? :: Bill Eitner wrote: ::: Aaron Baugher wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :: I don't know what you mean Aaron? Why *must* you login several :: times a day? I think he would prefer that he not have to "re-login" after leaving the fitday screen open for a long period of time. If you walk away from an open fitday screen, it logs you out and forces you to re-login again. >>> Bill Eitner wrote: >>>> Aaron Baugher wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > from an open fitday screen, it logs you out and forces you to > re-login again. Ahhh thanks Roger:) I didn't understand that:) I paid for the the one on my own computer so I don't have that problem! > I have a program in my online briefcase that I use for > journaling. It's compact, stable and most importantly > it works on your local system. You can download a copy > and use it if you'd like. Here's a link: > http://briefcase.yahoo.com/kd6tas Thanks, I'll take a look. No Windows here, but it might work in an emulator. Fitday is very nice, though. I was just laughing at the fact that it forces re-login-on-idle sooner than sites like Ebay, where someone logging in as me could cost me lots of money. SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz :: Aaron Baugher wrote: :::: Protein Power recommends 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] :: you're getting too much protein. The calories are coming from :: *somewhere*. LC is mostly considered a high-fat diet by calories. :: Then Roger Zoul replied: ::: I find it very hard to believe he could be eating that much protein ::: on a daily basis. Until he starts journaling, it's just speculation. :: :: True. It hasn't been unusual for me to eat 6 eggs and 1.5 pounds of :: meat in a day, though. Good grief, man. So, are you riding 100 miles a day on your bike, too? At 7 grams of protein per egg or ounce of :: meat, that's 210g right there, not counting whatever cheese or :: toppings might have been involved. I'll have accurate numbers soon. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: (and that's the largest amount PP recommends for the largest :: people), that leaves a LOT of calories to get from fat. Yeah, so? Remember, fat kicks in a 9 kcals per gram. Why do you worry about how many calories come from fat? You won't :: get anywhere near that eating chicken and salads, or even burgers :: and salads, or even bacon and eggs. There aren't many foods that :: will give you a lot of (healthy) fat without also giving you plenty :: of protein, and the numbers say we need more fat than protein. Not true. Try putting olive oil on salads or using dressings. Bacon isn't a high source of protein. I've been journaling a long time and I know it's easy to get adequate protein and plenty of fat calories, too. :: If I had a beef with Protein Power, it would be that they talk a lot :: about building your meals around *a* protein source. I'm supposed to :: get 40g of protein per meal, which means a 6 oz. burger. Ok, so :: that's on my plate, now what? Get your protein requirement in *mostly* and fill in with fat... I've already got the protein, now what :: foods can I eat that will fill me up the rest of the way with fat and :: trace amounts of carbs and not add more protein? I think you're worrying about it too much. I'm kind of screwed :: at that point, unless I put a half-stick of butter on my burger. :: More likely, I'm going to have to back up and make the burger 4 oz., :: so I've got some protein left in the bank to spend on some higher-fat :: foods like nuts or cheese. That's fine, but it's a little more :: complex than just, "start with an item that covers your protein and :: build around it." Well, those are general guidelines. I think you'd do well to remember that many meats have as much fat as protein, if not more. And 4 oz of burger does *mostly* cover your protein requirement. > Right. Hence my concern. But do the math: if you're taking in 120 > calories in carbs (and Induction would be lower than that), if even [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you're getting too much protein. The calories are coming from > *somewhere*. > I'm not bragging here, or saying I've found a flaw in the system. But > again, the math is pretty simple. If you're getting 120 calories from [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (healthy) fat without also giving you plenty of protein, and the > numbers say we need more fat than protein. Yup. This is why I always say that it's a high-fat diet. I only aim at 1400-1600 calories/day... but keeping my carbs under 50g and my protein around 80-100 g means my diet needs to be more than half fat by calories. I frankly get most of that from dairy. That is not the healthiest fat there is out there, but it's the one I can eat in large enough quanitity to get the calories in. Fullfat cottage cheese, cream cheese, ricotta, yogurt and hard cheeses. And a good bit of heavy cream for my coffee a few times a day. My protein powder shakes aren't very high-fat so I add cream and lecithin to them. I can't have low-fat meals and ever catch up. I don't eat veggies without salad dressing, mayo, butter or some other kind of fat slathered on top of them. Salads are usually topped with cheese, eggs and/or nuts or seeds. I eat the better fats too... lotsa nuts, avocados, etc. I don't just eat dairy. But dairy is how I get the calories up. When I first started reading this group, years ago, there was a group of people posting about sipping oil. Seriously... to get the fat content up. I didn't find that an appetizing idea, myself. Never tried it. > If I had a beef with Protein Power, it would be that they talk a lot > about building your meals around *a* protein source. I'm supposed to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > complex than just, "start with an item that covers your protein and > build around it." I don't personally think ANY of the books have appropriate diet advice. PP is a great book for understanding the protein bit of the equation. Atkins is OK for understanding about carbs. Bernstein is great for understanding diabetes. IMO, all their diets suck. And it kind of HAS to be that way. None of them knows me well enough to make a diet for me, something I can live with long-term. Bernstein wants me to eat 30g carb/day forever. That's all well and fine, but back before I was on insulin, I discovered my bg stayed pretty much the same at 30g or 50g. So... there was no benefit to me in going to the lower number. The higher number gives me room for a cup of berries or melon and I don't particularly want to live without fruit for the rest of my life. And frankly, lots of the food he suggests are kinda gross. I don't want to eat soy-based fake bacon, thanks very much. If I have to eat that crap, I'd rather just have the heart attack now, thanks. But I recommend Bernstein to every diabetic I know. I gave his book to a few people last Christmas. He does a GREAT job of teaching about diabetes, and you don't have to eat what he says to learn from him. Understanding all of this stuff is only the first part of the equation - knowing your own best numbers for carbs, protein and calories (which defines how much fat you need). The second part is figuring out how to translate those numbers into a diet that is palatable, enjoyable, and that you can live with long- term. That's what makes the ideal diet - the one you can stick with and ENJOY sticking with. You have to *live* with your diet. No book can possibly know that I love avocados but don't like fish. I am the one who has to figure out how to fit the information on how to eat into my own life. > Yup. This is why I always say that it's a high-fat diet. It's inescapable when you do the math. It's interesting that none of the books really get into that. Some say not to worry about fat, but they gloss over it as much as possible. I can understand that, as a self-preservation move: if you state clearly in your book that people will be eating 100+ grams of fat a day, you'll be pilloried. Imply it and let people figure it out for themselves, and the usual suspects won't make the connection. > I only aim at 1400-1600 calories/day... but keeping my carbs under > 50g and my protein around 80-100 g means my diet needs to be more > than half fat by calories. Right now my goal is 30 carb, 120 protein, 155 fat. If I'm able to raise my carbs after I hit my goal without hurting my BG, the fat may come down a little, but I'd guess it'll still be 50% or a bit more. > I frankly get most of that from dairy. That is not the healthiest > fat there is out there, but it's the one I can eat in large enough > quanitity to get the calories in. Fullfat cottage cheese, cream > cheese, ricotta, yogurt and hard cheeses. And a good bit of heavy > cream for my coffee a few times a day. I should use a lot more cream cheese, especially since I make it myself. A 3-egg cream cheese omelet instead of 4 scrambled eggs would help. > When I first started reading this group, years ago, there was a > group of people posting about sipping oil. Seriously... to get the > fat content up. I didn't find that an appetizing idea, myself. > Never tried it. I remember that too; never sounded very tasty to me either. SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz > jackiepa...@gmail.com writes: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and let people figure it out for themselves, and the usual suspects > won't make the connection. Doing the arithmetic is straightforward, but the different numbers come from different plans. Not defining all of the numbers may be how low carb plans manage to ignore mentioning they are high fat. My target weight is 180 (per PP 170-180) so my target calories are 1800 (per assorted books on portion control dieting). My CCLL is 50 and my CCLM is 100 per the Atkins proces. I am in ketosis at 50 (total, I started before net), out out ketosis at 55+, and my appetite increases near 110. When I count protein grams I tend to eat near 100 when I try to keep my fat-to-protein ratio high. 1800 - (50*4) = 1600 after carbs. 1600 - (100*4) = 1200 after protein. 1200/9 = 133 grams of fat daily while losing. 1800 - (100*4) = 1400 after carbs. 1400 - (100*4) = 1000 after protein. 1000/9 = 111 grams of fat per day in maintenance. In practice I end up with more protein grams and fewer fat grams much of the time. And that 1800 is rarely a single day hit. My daily calories bounce a lot but the 1800 isn't far from my weekly average when I'm eating right. A count of fat grams that has 3 digits seems to be how the numbers work out for a lot of people. If I were writing a book to make a living off the writing proceeds, I wouldn't do that sort of arithmetic either. But if I were to write a book for money it would be in my working field of computer IT. If I ever write a low carb book it would be for fun and to contribute so I would include this sort of arithmetic, and I'd never be invited to any TV show ... > Right now my goal is 30 carb, 120 protein, 155 fat. If I'm able to > raise my carbs after I hit my goal without hurting my BG, the fat may > come down a little, but I'd guess it'll still be 50% or a bit more. Sure. Increase carbs and it's going to come from the fat. Pick the right carbs and they are filling and don't trigger cravings. Pick the wrong carbs and say goodbye to counts ... > I should use a lot more cream cheese, especially since I make it > myself. A 3-egg cream cheese omelet instead of 4 scrambled eggs would > help. Dr A mentioned cream cheese as part of the fat fast in one edition of his book. > > When I first started reading this group, years ago, there was a > > group of people posting about sipping oil. Seriously... to get the > > fat content up. I didn't find that an appetizing idea, myself. > > Never tried it. > > I remember that too; never sounded very tasty to me either. I tried it one week. Not for the taste. The first day it was easy. Each day after that it got harder and harder. In under a week I could not even down a shot glass by holding my nose to force a swallow. (But use that oil mixed with carbs, it's a cookie and I couldn't stop until the bag is gone ...) >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Susan Actually, protein is converted to glucose ONLY if the body needs it. Here is a quote from "Diabetes Solution" by Bernstein, M.D. "Protein foods are only about 20 percent protein by weight (6 grams per ounce", the rest being fat, water, or undigestible "gristle." The liver, instructed by the hormone glucagon, can ...very slowly... transform as much as 52 percent of the above 6 grams per ounce into glucose IF blood sugar descends too low or the body's other amino acid needs have been met." > Actually, protein is converted to glucose ONLY if the body needs it. > Here is a quote from "Diabetes Solution" by Bernstein, M.D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > glucose IF blood sugar descends too low or the body's other amino > acid needs have been met." Interesting. So, what happens if you eat more protein than your body needs for protein purposes, but it doesn't need glucose either? (Mainstream wisdom says every calorie gets used somehow, but I think we know better than that.) Does it just pass on through you? Can much protein be stored for long? SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz >> Actually, protein is converted to glucose ONLY if the body needs it. >> Here is a quote from "Diabetes Solution" by Bernstein, M.D. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Interesting. So, what happens if you eat more protein than your body > needs for protein purposes, but it doesn't need glucose either? What happens to any macronutrient that is surplus? It's converted and stored as bodyfat. > (Mainstream wisdom says every calorie gets used somehow, but I think we > know better than that.) Does it just pass on through you? Can much > protein be stored for long? Protein can be stored as muscle but there has to be a stimulus to cause muscle tissue accumulation. On the other hand, a caloric surplus is all that is required for bodyfat accumulation. > > Actually, protein is converted to glucose ONLY if the body needs it. > > Here is a quote from "Diabetes Solution" by Bernstein, M.D. Reading the quote below, it isn't only. > > "Protein foods are only about 20 percent protein by weight (6 grams > > per ounce", the rest being fat, water, or undigestible "gristle." That 6 grams per ounce is also cited in PP by Drs Eades. > > The liver, instructed by the hormone glucagon, can ...very slowly... > > transform as much as 52 percent of the above 6 grams per ounce into > > glucose IF blood sugar descends too low That half of the if phase is the part that applies to the only - If blood sugar falls too low, the options are to burn fat in ketosis to generate its 10ish% energy via glucose and/or to use glucogenisis from protein to generate its 50ish% energy via glucose. > > or the body's other amino acid needs have been met." But this half of the if clause is about glucogenisis when the body doesn't need more glucose, or independent of any need for more glucose. As long as the amino acid needs have been satisfied the rest is used in glucogenisis. Or maybe converted to fat instead of to glucose? I suspect the path is to synthesize fat from the excess glucose not directly from protein. > Interesting. So, what happens if you eat more protein than your body > needs for protein purposes, but it doesn't need glucose either? So let's say your body needs 100 grams of protein in a day but you ate 200 grams of protein that day. The first 100 grams are used for amino acids. The second 100 grams is converted at 50ish% efficiency to roughly 50 grams of glucose, with the process running slowly enough to take the whole day. Compare that your body needs 50 grams of fat but you ate 100 grams that day. The first 50 grams are used in cell membranes, nerves and such. The other 50 grams is converted to glycerol and fatty acids. The glycerol is made into glucose for about 10% of the energy or 11 grams of glucose. The fatty acids are converted into some acetyl-CoA and some ketones. > Does it just pass on through you? Some might. Dr Atkins appears to have claimed that a lot of calories get excreted while in ketosis but the evidence to back up the claim is poor or missing. > Can much protein be stored for long? There has to be some amount of lean storage that isn't muscle. Starvation effects don't always start immediately weakening people. But how much is "much"? I've never seen any way to estimate how much can be stored against future needs and against famine but I doubt it would qualify as "much" in this context. > I've never been one to keep a food journal or count anything except a > vague idea of how many carbs I'm getting. If you don't keep track of what you're eating, then you're figting a losing battle. You're making tons of assumptions and you have absolutely no hard data whatsoever. If you're going to play, play to win not to lose. (Weight a minute (sic)... how do I say that ;-) If you're going to play the low-carb game, play by the rules if you expect to lose. (Am I getting it here?) Ummm... anyway, yah, that's total bs. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. Get it together, dude. > I'd guess 3000 calories easy. Maybe journaling would make this more than a guess? > In any case, that got me to actually paying attention to what I'm > eating (though no actual journaling yet), and I've come to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd guess I'm getting well over > 200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all the meat and eggs I eat. The protein power protein number is a minimum. You are allowed to eat roughly as much as you want, as long as you aren't eating when satiated. I have a protein recommendation around yours (125-145, depending on workout activity), and I log. On my biggest protein day ever, I believe I was around 275g. And when I go big protein, we're talking large prime rib. I tweaked the diet a little after reading the Testosterone Advantage Plan and was looking at 1.5-2g/kg of bodyweight, which was working out to 200g/day, or 40/ meal. That was a LOT of protein. Two shakes, 7 ounces cooked roast beef or turkey, 2 ounces of almonds, big a.s steak or pork chops. What I'm getting at is you might want to crank up the fitday for a week to actually know. 300 is hard unless you are eating prime rib, massive steaks or large amounts of protein shakes. At 7g/egg, it takes a Cool Hand Luke style number to get you to 300 (43, actually, but it's to CHL what Pete Rose's streak was to Dimaggio's). > After all, if I limit myself to 30g of carbs (and I rarely get that > much) and 120g of protein, here's the math just to get me up to 2000 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > protein: 120g x 4 = 480 calories > fat: 156g x 9 = 1400 calories In terms of nutrient breakdown, that's a lot of fat. Eat more protein (I eat in the 130-160/day range), don't trim fat, and don't worry about calories until you are having real problems. (That's overly dismissive... what I mean is, figure the protein, establish that there's really something wrong and it's not working right, and then worry about calories). I should mention, you shouldn't be using the PP(LP) protein minimum if you aren't using their carb number (30-40, and those are ceilings). Aaron, since we're in a similar space, at least in terms of macro goals, this is a link to my fitday journal. I warn you. I am a picky eater and I don't log spices, rubs, or sauces (I don't make carby sauces either). http://fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=maxlharris (please note, I am not particularly interested in commentary on what I do/don't eat. I am only sharing so Aaron can see how you get your calories on >125g protein and <40g carbs...) :: I have a protein recommendation around yours (125-145, depending on :: workout activity), and I log. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: meal. That was a LOT of protein. Two shakes, 7 ounces cooked roast :: beef or turkey, 2 ounces of almonds, big a.s steak or pork chops. I find I can drive my protein intake up greatly without lots of added calories by eating chicken breast (baked, skinless). Just a FYI. They get very boring after a while, though. > I find I can drive my protein intake up greatly without lots of > added calories by eating chicken breast (baked, skinless). Just a > FYI. They get very boring after a while, though. Do you really have to *try* to get your protein intake up, though? Once one goes LC, doesn't one generally get enough protein automatically by eating the alternatives? SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> writes: :: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :: Once one goes LC, doesn't one generally get enough protein :: automatically by eating the alternatives? As I'm always LC, I can force my protein intake even higher, up to 250g+ by eating lots of chicken breast. That's why I find it hard to believe that you could routinely eat 300g of protein a day. It take real effort to do that, considering that most meats come with plenty of fat too. > The protein power protein number is a minimum. You are allowed to > eat roughly as much as you want, as long as you aren't eating when > satiated. Maybe as far as the diet goes, and like I said, I'm not gaining weight and I feel pretty good. But I'm still concerned that excessive protein will convert into too much blood sugar to be healthy, and could be causing the cravings I'm still getting. > In terms of nutrient breakdown, that's a lot of fat. Eat more protein > (I eat in the 130-160/day range), don't trim fat, and don't worry > about calories until you are having real problems. (That's overly > dismissive... what I mean is, figure the protein, establish that > there's really something wrong and it's not working right, and then > worry about calories). Agreed. I'll be testing my blood sugar more often too, to see if the amount of protein I'm eating causes any spikes. > I should mention, you shouldn't be using the PP(LP) protein minimum > if you aren't using their carb number (30-40, and those are > ceilings). Yes, I'm using their limit of 30. > Aaron, since we're in a similar space, at least in terms of macro > goals, this is a link to my fitday journal. I warn you. I am a picky > eater and I don't log spices, rubs, or sauces (I don't make carby > sauces either). Thanks very much! If you're able to run your protein in the 150-200 range that much without any trouble, maybe I'm worrying about it too much. BG tests will tell me for sure, but even if I'm eating 200g of protein and not getting spikes, I'd like to replace some of that with fat. I just don't need extra glucose running around in my blood stream, even if I'm handling it okay at the moment. My Fitday journal starts now! SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz :: Thanks very much! If you're able to run your protein in the 150-200 :: range that much without any trouble, maybe I'm worrying about it too [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: stream, even if I'm handling it okay at the moment. My Fitday :: journal starts now! Significant exercise! > The protein power protein number is a minimum. You are allowed to eat > roughly > as much as you want, as long as you aren't eating when satiated. Yeah, but you can't overeat protein. Your body converts about half of the excess protein to glucose. If you overeat protein, it's pretty much the same thing as eating more carb. It both raises your bg and knocks you out of ketosis. I'm on insulin now and I have to calculate *both* the amount of carb and the amount of protein in a meal to figure out how much insulin to take. Doing it once in a while is unlikely to really effect a weight-loss diet very much. But doing it consistently will. :: On Jul 24, 7:14 am, Hollywood <maxlhar...@gmail.com> wrote: :: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] :: Doing it once in a while is unlikely to really effect a weight-loss :: diet very much. But doing it consistently will. I've never noticed any affect on my BG as a result of eating too much protein. Of course, figuring what too much is is an issue on its on. I've been up near 300 g on various ocassions. When you say it raises BG, does it really do it like a carb hit will? A big carb hit will cause a rapid increase in BG - a spike to high levels over a short period of time. If eating extra protein, does that, I'd be surprised. I'd expect a much more slow rise, perhaps not evening to damaging levels. And perhaps it would knock one out of ketosis....but ketosis isn't so much of an issue if you're not dieting, but instead using LC to control T2DM. So, I'm wondering if eating extra protein can serve as a means to effectively "carb load" and replenish glycogen stores without eating a lot of carbs. Gotta go. > I've never noticed any affect on my BG as a result of eating too much > protein. Of course, figuring what too much is is an issue on its on. I've [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Gotta go. Protein raises bg much more gradually than carb. It's WAY less spiky... more of a slow, gradual rise. If you're testing 1 and 2 hr postprandial numbers, you may not even see the effects of protein much as they're not coming until later. Still, overeating it *can* knock you out of ketosis cause your body turns excess protein into glucose. I think some of the folks who stall are experiencing this. And yes, this means protein replenishes glycogen, though much more slowly than carbs do. But if you overeat protein regularly, you'd pretty much keep your glycogen stores up all the time. I don't think you overeat protein cause I bet there is a correlation between high protein intake and your biking. You're burning up excess protein just as you can burn up excess carb - hence they're not really "excess" at all. Those who take insulin need to account for both carb and protein intake. For example, if I eat 12 g carb and 3 oz protein for lunch, I'll need less insulin for that meal than for a 12 g carb dinner that has 5 oz protein. That I need a larger dose of insulin to cover the extra protein makes it obvious to me that protein raises my bg. (Also, different types of insulin work with different speeds, so it's a very complex situation overall - but that's for another newsgroup.) Fat has a very small effect on bg and therefore can mostly be ignored on it's own. A a high fat meal slows down the bg rise due to carbs. But the increase of bg due to fat itself is practically nearly nil and can practically be ignored. The overall rise is the same whether I eat a lot of fat or a little fat, just it's spread out over more time. This is one of the explanations for Dawn Phenomenon, that the liver dumps it's glycogen at night when bg goes low. Lots of people on extremely low-carb, like the Bernstein diet, still experience DP - the glycogen is coming from somewhere. Before I began insulin, my bg was running high ALL THE TIME - even when I was completely fasting for several days. The glucose has to come from somewhere - I suspect I was burning muscle mass at that time. Hence turning protein into glucose... :: On Jul 25, 10:25 am, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzo...@hotmail.com> wrote: :: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] :: postprandial numbers, you may not even see the effects of protein :: much as they're not coming until later. I've tried to test for the late rise...but either I didn't eat enough it the readings were somehow masked....maybe I'll try again.... :: Still, overeating it *can* knock you out of ketosis cause your body :: turns excess protein into glucose. I think some of the folks who :: stall are experiencing this. I want this provided it doesn't send BG too high.... :: And yes, this means protein replenishes glycogen, though much more :: slowly than carbs do. But if you overeat protein regularly, you'd :: pretty much keep your glycogen stores up all the time. And that's what I'm searching for....what is the time frame for this to happen? Hours? And, what excess amount do I need to eat to be sure that it converts over to glycogen and gets stored? :: I don't think you overeat protein cause I bet there is a correlation :: between high protein intake and your biking. You're burning up :: excess protein just as you can burn up excess carb - hence they're :: not really "excess" at all. As a rule, though, I don't eat lots of protein. Typical may be around 100gs unless I start in on the chicken breasts. If I eat 300g of protein today, would that really be like eating 178g of carbs? That's a lot of protein.....I find protein heavy meals to be very boring, too. :: Those who take insulin need to account for both carb and protein :: intake. For example, if I eat 12 g carb and 3 oz protein for lunch, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: (Also, different types of insulin work with different speeds, so it's :: a very complex situation overall - but that's for another newsgroup.) So you take a slow-acting insulin to deal with a high protein intake, right? :: Fat has a very small effect on bg and therefore can mostly be ignored :: on it's own. A a high fat meal slows down the bg rise due to carbs. :: But the increase of bg due to fat itself is practically nearly nil :: and can practically be ignored. The overall rise is the same :: whether I eat a lot of fat or a little fat, just it's spread out :: over more time. I would like to think that the peak is less with more fat, but perhaps the area under the curve is the same. :: This is one of the explanations for Dawn Phenomenon, that the liver :: dumps it's glycogen at night when bg goes low. Lots of people on :: extremely low-carb, like the Bernstein diet, still experience DP - :: the glycogen is coming from somewhere. Fortunately, I haven't experienced DP yet. :: Before I began insulin, my bg was running high ALL THE TIME - even :: when I was completely fasting for several days. The glucose has to :: come from somewhere - I suspect I was burning muscle mass at that :: time. Hence turning protein into glucose... Yes. If I fast, my BG will get into the upper 60s and sit there...still buring some muscle... > :: And yes, this means protein replenishes glycogen, though much more > :: slowly than carbs do. But if you overeat protein regularly, you'd [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > happen? Hours? And, what excess amount do I need to eat to be sure that it > converts over to glycogen and gets stored? I don't think there's an easy answer for this. I think all the calculations about getting adequate protein are estimates. And I don't think anyone knows if you eat X amount of protein, how much of it exactly winds up as glucose, and how much of that glucose winds up stored as glycogen. There's just too many variables. What I'd suggest as an experiment is... presumably you know how much you gain/lose when you lose the water weight when you burn off all your glycogen as you've been low-carbing forever. So... when you know you're in ketosis, eat chicken breasts until you've gained that amount. Then you'll know how much it takes for you. But if you're not significantly overweight, your bg is relatively controlled and you exercise a lot (all of which I believe are true based on your posts), it may take a long time to get there. > As a rule, though, I don't eat lots of protein. Typical may be around 100gs > unless I start in on the chicken breasts. If I eat 300g of protein today, > would that really be like eating 178g of carbs? That's a lot of > protein.....I find protein heavy meals to be very boring, too. No, it's not that simple. Potentially, protein can yield a certain amount of glucose... but your body is not turning all your protein into glucose. It's using it as protein too. > So you take a slow-acting insulin to deal with a high protein intake, right? I told my husband today that if he's ever bored and wants to learn about insulin, I could babble on about it for several hours. ;) It's new to me, so I'm learning lots. I take Lantus every evening. It has a gradual curve... and lasts a total of 20-24 hours. That's a *very* slow-acting insulin. I take Humalog before each meal. It has a very sharp curve, starts working in 15 minutes, and is mostly done by 2-3 hours, though it has some activity up to 4-5 hours. It is a fast-acting insulin. According to everything I understand... Humalog should work better for me if taken after meals because my meals are so high fat. But I did that experiment and it doesn't work. What happens in general versus what happens in a particular individual are not the same thing. > I would like to think that the peak is less with more fat, but perhaps the > area under the curve is the same. I suspect the area under the curve is the same. But it is believed that it's the spikes that cause the most damage... so evening out the curve is a good thing. > Protein raises bg much more gradually than carb. It's WAY less > spiky... more of a slow, gradual rise. If you're testing 1 and 2 hr > postprandial numbers, you may not even see the effects of protein much > as they're not coming until later. From all the research I did in the past on this question protein actualy doesn't cause a rise at all, due to such slow digestion of it. Exception is type 1 diabetes. Susan > From all the research I did in the past on this question protein > actualy doesn't cause a rise at all, due to such slow digestion of it. > Exception is type 1 diabetes. It's been a long time since I had the research in front of me, but I recall back in graduate school seeing bg curves for normal people, Type I's and Type II's eating meals of just carb, just protein and just fat. Even the fat in non-diabetics caused a rise, but it was very tiny and slow. Looking back, I don't know how much of that may have been changes based on stuff other than the meal though. The stuff I've been reading recently about the changes in basal bg throughout the day raises some questions about what those curves actually meant. I know I have to change my insulin dosage based on the protein in my meals even if the carb is kept constant. So yes, it is having an effect. I don't see the effect at the 1 and 2 hr postprandials, but at the next meal's preprandial. >> From all the research I did in the past on this question protein >>actualy doesn't cause a rise at all, due to such slow digestion of it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > reading recently about the changes in basal bg throughout the day > raises some questions about what those curves actually meant. That's the thing; cortisol drops precipitously at around 3-4 p.m. I'm sure this is why most DMs find they tolerate more carbs in the evening and none in the a.m., when cortisol is highest. Susan :: x-no-archive: yes :: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] :: actualy doesn't cause a rise at all, due to such slow digestion of :: it. Exception is type 1 diabetes. That's been my experience, but I just can't be sure if I'm always doing the right things. Also, it may depends heavily on the diabetic, ie, progression, etc. On Jul 25, 10:23 am, jackiepa...@gmail.com wrote: > > The protein power protein number is a minimum. You are allowed to eat > > roughly > > as much as you want, as long as you aren't eating when satiated. > > Yeah, but you can't overeat protein. Your body converts about half of > the excess protein to glucose. I'm just reporting on my reading. Yours may be different. > If you overeat protein, it's pretty much the same thing as eating more > carb. It both raises your bg and knocks you out of ketosis. I don't test BG (I'm neither diabetic, nor pre-diabetic, nor possessed with any but the lowest grade OCD). > I'm on insulin now and I have to calculate *both* the amount of carb > and the amount of protein in a meal to figure out how much insulin to > take. I'm sorry, but because you have diabetes and have to monitor this stuff doesn't mean everyone does. I'm sorry you have to take hormones to level your BG, but that's not everybody. > Doing it once in a while is unlikely to really effect a weight-loss > diet very much. But doing it consistently will. Curious. How do you know your protein number? do you just add it to your carb number? Since no more than 50-some-odd percent of the protein is gonna covert to glucose via gluconeogenesis, that seems wrong. And I maintain that following the "eat until sated" while limiting carbs would make it difficult to blow out very far on protein. Of course, if you eat until you can't fit anything else, well, all bets are off on everything, carb, protein, fat, or alcohol. > I've never been one to keep a food journal or count anything except a > vague idea of how many carbs I'm getting. When you're eating very > low-carb foods like meat, eggs, and greens, you know your carbs will > always be under the limit, so it never seemed necessary. Whenever I > stuck with low-carb religiously, I lost weight while eating as much as > I wanted whenever I was hungry -- simple as that. But now you do need the numbers. Otherwise you're guessing. > In any case, that got me to actually paying attention to what I'm > eating (though no actual journaling yet), and I've come to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd guess I'm getting well over > 200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all the meat and eggs I eat. My Protein Power minimum was 76. Has a recent edition changed the process or was I more conservative about my activity level ... > After all, if I limit myself to 30g of carbs (and I rarely get that > much) and 120g of protein, here's the math just to get me up to 2000 > calories a day -- and that's low for a guy my size, and definitely > lower than I'm taking in now: Thing is excess protein grams get burnt as fuel at roughly 50% of the calories of carb. Compare with fat where roughly 10% of its calories get burned as carb. Excess protein grams matter more against carb counts. Calorie for calorie the carb impact of fat is far lower. > carbs: 30g x 4 = 120 calories > protein: 120g x 4 = 480 calories [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > girlfriend as she watched me do the math, if I eat two sticks of > butter every day, I'll be all set! Fattier meats are at least as filling calorie calorie for calorie as leaner meats. What this means is if you switch to fattier meats and you go by "full but not stuffed" you'll end up spontaneously eating smaller portions without specific effort. You'll end up eating roughly the same number of calories without specific effort. As long as you keep your carbs low! Mix high carb and that stops working (think cookies). > So I'm having to change my thinking a bit, to find more ways to get > fat into my diet and bring that protein number down. Fondue. Bits of meat on a stick, fried in oil that doesn't stick so then dipped in garlic butter. Several types of sausage are much higher in fat so they are more filling. Pepperoni, salami and so on. Not trimming your steak has it end up both higher fat and more filling. > I've grudgingly > started journaling my meals, at least for a couple weeks, to see just > how much I've been overdoing it. Knowledge is power. > My girlfriend (who is working into > LC now, having tested her own BG) wants to try making hollandaise > sauce, which looks to be very high in fat, and I'm planning to start > making alfredo sauce too -- just without the noodles. I already slop > plenty of mayo on everything it tastes good on, but maybe I can find > more ways to use that. Heavy sauces work great. Butter and lemon and so on. > I'd really rather not just eat butter by the stick. Lot's of people can't. Try it several days in a row. it took me 3 days to build up a gag reflex so I could not force it down. I tried shots of 50-50 olive/canola oil rather than sticks of butter several years ago to prove it to myself - Feel freel to conduct the same experiment on yourself. I predict you'll be able to eat a stick of butter the first day but within a few days you won't be able to swallow it. And so heavy sauces ... > My Protein Power minimum was 76. Has a recent edition > changed the process or was I more conservative about my > activity level ... My lean body weight of 169 pounds multiplied by .7 for average activity comes to 118g per day. > Thing is excess protein grams get burnt as fuel at roughly > 50% of the calories of carb. Compare with fat where roughly > 10% of its calories get burned as carb. Excess protein > grams matter more against carb counts. Calorie for calorie > the carb impact of fat is far lower. Right. That's why I do want to increase the amount of fat in my diet, and make sure I'm not drastically overdoing the protein. It'll just take a little more planning and effort, because the most common protein sources -- meat and eggs -- don't have that high a fat/protein ratio, so I'll have to supplement with things that do. > Fondue. Bits of meat on a stick, fried in oil that doesn't > stick so then dipped in garlic butter. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not trimming your steak has it end up both higher fat and > more filling. Good ideas. I always buy the fattiest ground beef at the store, so maybe I'm getting more fat and less protein there than the PP numbers; hadn't thought of that. I also just got a half a hog butchered from my parents' farm, so that means more bacon and sausage. >> I'd really rather not just eat butter by the stick. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > butter the first day but within a few days you won't be able to > swallow it. And so heavy sauces ... Homemade butter with salt tastes pretty good, but yeah, a whole stick of it would be nasty. I don't remember where I saw it, but I saw a recipe once that combined a whole bunch of spinach with a full *pound* of butter. Somehow you just kept adding both until the spinach soaked up all the butter. If I could find that again, I'd like to try it. Off to fry some fish in lard, with some mayo and hot sauce to dip it in. Then back here to journal it. SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz >>> I'd really rather not just eat butter by the stick. If you're trying to increase your fat intake by ingesting it straight, you might want to look into flax seed oil. Google this NG for info and suggestions. SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm >>>> I'd really rather not just eat butter by the stick. > > If you're trying to increase your fat intake by ingesting it straight, > you might want to look into flax seed oil. I agree. Fish oil and flax seed oil in liquid form (not tablets) taken by the tablespoon might end up benefiting you more than saturated fat. The "magic" of low carb is the anorectic effect of benign dietary ketosis that curbs hunger even in the face of severe caloric reduction. At 235 I don't lose weight on low carb at 2000-2500 calories a day either. Like me you may end up experimenting with more moderate macronutrient ratios and more meals per day in order to continue to lose weight and keep blood sugar levels under control. :: Right. That's why I do want to increase the amount of fat in my :: diet, and make sure I'm not drastically overdoing the protein. :: It'll just take a little more planning and effort, because the most :: common protein sources -- meat and eggs -- don't have that high a :: fat/protein ratio, so I'll have to supplement with things that do. This has not been my experience at all. Also, do you consider fish to be meat? Have you tried salmon? > :: Right. That's why I do want to increase the amount of fat in my > :: diet, and make sure I'm not drastically overdoing the protein. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This has not been my experience at all. Also, do you consider fish > to be meat? Have you tried salmon? I love fish. I just had some tilapia fillets for supper last night and lunch today, but they have a 1/8 fat/protein ratio. Very lean, so I deep fried them in lard and melted some butter over them. On that 2000 calorie diet, if I'm eating 30g of carbs and 120g of protein, I need 155g of fat. That's about 1.3g of fat for every gram of protein, or just over 5/4. According to FitDay, fried eggs have a 31/28 ratio -- leaner than that 5/4. Bacon is a bit fattier, about 5/3. Regular ground beef is 7/8 -- much leaner. Pork chops: 23/36, not even close! Catfish (I thought it'd be fatty): 20/27. Salmon: 10/32! Cheddar cheese is pretty close: 46/35. Bacon is the only meat I see that's actually fattier than I need, and most meats have much more protein than fat. It looks to me like a certain amount of fat has to come from condiments, oils, desserts with artificial sweetener, etc. It just isn't possible to eat "high-fat" on meat without eating "even-higher-protein" at the same time. That's why I was running into trouble when I was just slapping meat on the grill or frying pan and not bothering to add anything to it. Day 1 of journaling went pretty well: 2515 calories 16 carb 168 protein 197 fat That included bacon and eggs, fried fish with butter, hamburgers with mayo, and green beans with butter. Maybe a bit high on the protein, but at least I wasn't upside down, and I didn't have a craving all day. Good start, I think. SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> writes: :: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] :: 168 protein :: 197 fat You're counting grams here...but the largest portion of your diet comes from fat...calorie-wise. :: That included bacon and eggs, fried fish with butter, hamburgers with :: mayo, and green beans with butter. Maybe a bit high on the protein, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: -- :: Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz > You're counting grams here...but the largest portion of your diet > comes from fat...calorie-wise. Yes. I calculated my fat-gram needs by working backwards from the number of calories I had left after my 30g of carbs and 120g of protein. Since the labels give each component in grams, it's easier to set goals for grams than for calories. If I compared calories, the ratio of fat to protein would be a much bigger number: 1400 calories fat / 480 calories protein = 35/12 = 2.92 fat calories for each protein calorie 155 grams fat / 120 grams protein ~ 5/4 = 1.2 fat grams for each protein gram As a percentage of dietary calories, I'd be getting 70% (1400/2000) from fat, 24% from protein, and 6% from carbohydrates. That's why I'm not surprised that none of the books focuses on the fat, even though it's the largest part of the diet. People would scream and run away if you were straightforward about it, and you'd never get invited to be on Oprah with "The 70% Fat Diet!" SignatureAaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> writes: :: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] :: run away if you were straightforward about it, and you'd never get :: invited to be on Oprah with "The 70% Fat Diet!" Okay...this finally sounds right! :) Here you go, how to add fat to Tilapia, this is delicious. I go heavy on the coconut milk, usually make a double batch of this and use a whole can of coconut milk. Thai-Style Tilapia 1/2 cup coconut milk 6 whole almonds 2 tablespoons chopped white onion 1 teaspoon ground ginger 1/2 teaspoon ground turmeric 1 teaspoon chopped fresh lemon grass 1/4 teaspoon salt 4 (4 ounce) fillets tilapia salt and pepper to taste 1/2 teaspoon red pepper flakes, or to taste In a food processor or blender, combine the coconut milk, almonds, onion, ginger, turmeric, lemon grass, and 1/4 teaspoon of salt. Process until smooth. Heat a large non-stick skillet over medium-high heat. Season the fish fillets with salt and pepper on both sides, then place them skin-side up in the skillet. Pour the pureed sauce over the fish. Use a spatula to coat the fish evenly with the sauce. Sprinkle with red pepper flakes. Reduce heat to medium, cover, and simmer for about 15 minutes, until the puree is thickened and fish flakes easily with a fork. | I love fish. I just had some tilapia fillets for supper last night | and lunch today, but they have a 1/8 fat/protein ratio. Very lean, so [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] | but at least I wasn't upside down, and I didn't have a craving all | day. Good start, I think. > My Protein Power minimum was 76. Has a recent edition > changed the process or was I more conservative about my > activity level ... That seems pretty low, unless you're a pretty skinny guy who sits around all the time. Me right now: 210 lbs, 17% bodyfat so... 174 lbs of lean body mass I lift three times a week, Intervals twice a week, I call it somewhere between active (.7) and very active (.8), so we'll say .725 as the activity factor = 126 g PRO/day > I've never been one to keep a food journal or count anything except a > vague idea of how many carbs I'm getting. When you're eating very > low-carb foods like meat, eggs, and greens, you know your carbs will > always be under the limit, so it never seemed necessary. Whenever I > stuck with low-carb religiously, I lost weight while eating as much as > I wanted whenever I was hungry -- simple as that. I read the entire thread up to date (morning 7-26). I wanted to come back to the first post and see if I could get a clear idea of your goal/concern. This whole thing about the minimum protein recommendation in Protein Power and the trouble that you're having with it seems odd to me. > Since getting my BG tester and scaring myself back to the righteous > path, it doesn't seem to be as easy this time. You might elaborate on the BG readings and what scares you about them. For example, what is your fasting BG? > The cravings are > hanging around more, and even after several weeks, I find myself > eating a *lot* to keep them at bay -- I'd guess 3000 calories easy. When carbs are low cravings are likely to be psychological. Can you tell the difference? Even the terminology offers a clue. Physical hunger is just that--hunger, whereas the choice of the word "craving" often denotes something specific and more psychological than physical. Think about what has changed in your life since the last time you dieted successfully. Look for additional sources of stress, triggers, decreased water consumption, lower sleep quantity/quality, etc. If nothing comes up, perhaps your body is trying to tell you that low carb isn't the way for you anymore. For a clue you can try a metabolic typing test. I have a basic test in my online briefcase. You're welcome to download a copy and give it a try. Here's a link: http://briefcase.yahoo.com/kd6tas I'm a noteworthy example. I lost a lot of weight on low carb and was an enthusiastic proponent of it for a long time. Eventually it stalled out in that I had to keep going lower in calories and up with the exercise to keep it working. In time I realized that the program was becoming something that I wouldn't be able to stick with over the long term. At that time I was reading "Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle" (also in the online briefcase) and decided to make a change. I switched over to a 40/40/20 macronutrient ratio (40% carbohydrate, 40% protein, 20% fat) and 6 meals a day. With that I was able to kick the calories up to 2000-2400 (from 1300-1800) and start losing bodyfat again whereas I was stalled out on low carb. I might have been able to get the fat loss started again just by increasing the meal count without changing the macronutrient ratio. You may want to try that yourself. A larger number of smaller meals helps to keep blood sugar levels even and cravings under control. Those are usually non-issues with low carb, but yours might be a special case where it will help. And it isn't that much trouble. Simply take a typical meal and break it into two or three portions to be consumed roughly three hours apart. > I'm not gaining weight, of course, but I don't feel like I'm losing it > either; and while I've felt some increase in energy, it hasn't been as > strong as before. Maybe a lot of this is because my insulin > resistance has gotten worse; that seems like the most likely reason. How do you know that; do you have BG data from an earlier time? Of course aging does make things worse (dieting is less effective). I find that the weight loss and energy benefits are related to caloric deficit. I have more energy and lose more weight with a higher caloric deficit. Perhaps there's something similar going on with you. In the past your dieting may have been more enthusiastic leading to a larger caloric deficit and greater benefit. As we get older we work less and think about food more (greater opportunity for eating triggers). > In any case, that got me to actually paying attention to what I'm > eating (though no actual journaling yet), and I've come to the > conclusion that I'm eating way too much protein -- enough that the > surplus is getting converted into enough glucose to keep the cravings > going and maybe even keep me out of ketosis. I think I found it. I don't agree with your conclusion. The rest of the thread is based on accepting this as true when it may not be. What evidence do you have to support it? It could just as easily be that your cravings are psychological and you're not losing weight because of calorie balance (an inadequate caloric deficit). > Protein Power recommends > 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd guess I'm getting well over > 200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all the meat and eggs I eat. |
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