Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / October 2007
more Taubes stuff
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Jackie Patti - 26 Oct 2007 13:12 GMT Davis blogged about him today.
Bernstein mentioned him on his teleconference last night.
I still haven't finished the book myself yet...
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Jim - 26 Oct 2007 13:21 GMT > Davis blogged about him today. > > Bernstein mentioned him on his teleconference last night. > > I still haven't finished the book myself yet... It is a slow read, isn't it?
I find that I have to go back often and reread chapters and sections, just because I can't remember all of the new stuff I am being exposed to.
I haven't worked this hard on a book for a very long time.
My experience was encountering information and references that required giving up a number of "self evident truths" that have been passed around.
Have you had the same experience, or had you been current enough on this research that you had avoided these kinds of "self evident truths"?
Alan Wright - 26 Oct 2007 17:41 GMT > > Davis blogged about him today. > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Have you had the same experience, or had you been current enough on this > research that you had avoided these kinds of "self evident truths"? This was my experience reading the book as well. Stick with it, it just gets better and better right to the end.
Alan
Jackie Patti - 27 Oct 2007 18:34 GMT > Have you had the same experience, or had you been current enough on this > research that you had avoided these kinds of "self evident truths"? For the most part, I am finding most of the arguments familiar from much low-carb reading over the course of more than a decade at it. On the other hand, he puts it all together in an interesting way, so I'm finding it an enjoyable read.
There have also been a few tidbits that I was not aware of, or had never thought about properly. For example, the bit about all monosaccharides contributing to glycation of proteins - it had never occured to me before that fructose would contribute to making the HbA1c not directly related to blood glucose readings.
All-in-all, I'd say it's definetly worth reading.
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Jean Genie - 28 Oct 2007 07:32 GMT > Davis blogged about him today. > > Bernstein mentioned him on his teleconference last night. > > I still haven't finished the book myself yet... 'Davis'? Would you mind pointing to Davis?
Jackie Patti - 28 Oct 2007 12:59 GMT >> Davis blogged about him today. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > 'Davis'? Would you mind pointing to Davis? http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/
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Jackie Patti - 28 Oct 2007 15:42 GMT I had to powerhouse my way through Taubes today as it's due back at the library and can't be renewed as there's a waiting list for it cause they only got 5 copies.
I was very impressed at his ability to cover the Kreb's cycle, lipolysis, etc and manage to translate it to laymen's language. My college biochemistry textbook was easily twice as thick as this and didn't have to "translate" for laymen. Course, it had a lot more details, but... the thing is no one remembers all that stuff anyways. Most you remember is stuff like the Kreb's cycle produces ATP in the mitochondria... and Taubes manages to cover all the bits one actually remembers. It might be somewhat tough reading for some laymen, but he does manage to make the basic metabolism of carbohydrate and fat pretty accessible for non-chemists (he has much less on the metabolism of protein though).
He doesn't just discuss insulin and I'm not sure why people come away from the book thinking that. He makes a big deal out of the importance of the hypothalamus-pituitary axis in regulating both appetite and fat storage. He discusses the importance of the sex hormones with regards to fat storage also. He provides a summary of the hormones known to regulate fat storage as of 1965 includes: epinephrine, norepinephrine, ACTH, glucagon, TSH, melanocyte-stimulating hormone, vasopressin and growth hormone as well as insulin. That being said, he doesn't address adrenal hormones beyond epinephrine and norepinephrine hardly at all. He discusses some experiments with rats with their adrenals surgically removed, but it's basically about aldosterone (though he doesn't refer to the hormone by name). Not a word about cortisol anywhere.
I'm not sure why people come away from the book thinking he says not to exercise. Rather, he points out that fat storage is related to calories in and calories out pretty directly. He simply points out there's some confusion about what is the cause and what is the effect - which variables are independent in that equation. He also points out that exercise is not the entirety of "calories out" as basal metabolism is also effected. He seems to believe that excess fat storage causes a reduction in both basal metabolism and the natural desire to exercise - lean people burn calories at a higher rate even when sleeping and naturally enjoy moving more. But nowhere does he say that exercise is not good.
I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever read. Lots of information I've run across in many different places is all organized here, as well as a few studies I wasn't familair with. Beats the heck out of Protein Power, which is no longer my favorite low-carb book now that GCBC is available. In between finishing reading it and returning it to the library, I ordered a copy from Amazon as it's a good reference book that should sit on my desk next to Bernstein and my book of food counts.
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RRzVRR - 29 Oct 2007 11:08 GMT > I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever read. > Lots of information I've run across in many different places is all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > reference book that should sit on my desk next to Bernstein and my book > of food counts. Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic Diet - A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner"?
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Jim - 29 Oct 2007 12:23 GMT >> I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever >> read. Lots of information I've run across in many different places is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic > Diet - A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner"? I just read a small extract from Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Diet-Complete-Dieter-Practitioner/dp/0967145600/ ref=sr_1_2/103-2145203-0980629?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193656453&sr=8-2
It looks very interesting, but after reading Taubes to the end, I am ready to read a couple of relaxing novels before embarking on anything medically heavy again.
Thanks for the tip.
Jackie Patti - 29 Oct 2007 15:52 GMT >> I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever >> read. Lots of information I've run across in many different places is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic > Diet - A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner"? No. I've read a lot of Lyle's stuff, mostly articles, the forums on his web site and one e-book, but not that book.
In general, my impression is that Lyle is more into recent research and quite a bit more technical than Taubes is. I've also not seen Lyle address some of the specific stuff Tubes did - or not from the same viewpoint anyway.
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RRzVRR - 30 Oct 2007 01:55 GMT >>> I think this is the best and most thorough low-carb book I've ever >>> read. Lots of information I've run across in many different places is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > address some of the specific stuff Tubes did - or not from the same > viewpoint anyway. There's a lot in the book that most LC eaters may never need to know (pre bodybuilding contest plans which come up late in the book), but it does a very good job at explaining the basics of fuel systems and LC.
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Roger Zoul - 31 Oct 2007 01:23 GMT > Jackie Patti wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > bodybuilding contest plans which come up late in the book), but it does a > very good job at explaining the basics of fuel systems and LC. It seems a bit old research wise, though. I'd like to see a new edition.
RRzVRR - 31 Oct 2007 10:39 GMT >> Jackie Patti wrote: >>>> Did you ever read Lyle McDonald's book, "The Ketogenic [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It seems a bit old research wise, though. I'd like to see a new edition. I would as well.
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RRzVRR - 29 Oct 2007 12:50 GMT Since this was off the beaten path, I thought some might find the exchange between Taubes the NYT Book reviewer Kolata interesting.
My thought was that Kolata won't acknowledge the concept of human behavior (and/or addiction) effecting dieting... let alone how that behavior (and/or addiction) would be hard to overcome if it receives a constant bombardment of messages from the educational, media & medical communities encouraging the addiction.
================= October 7, 2007
Gina Kolata is a medical reporter for The Times and the author of ''Rethinking Thin: The New Science of Weight Loss and the Myths and Realities of Dieting.'
GOOD CALORIES, BAD CALORIES
Gary Taubes is a brave and bold science journalist who does not accept conventional wisdom. In ''Good Calories, Bad Calories,'' he says what he wants is a fair hearing and rigorous testing for ideas that might seem shocking.
His thesis, first introduced in a much-debated article in The New York Times Magazine in 2002 challenging the low-fat diet orthodoxy, is that nutrition and public health research and policy have been driven by poor science and a sort of pigheaded insistence on failed hypotheses. As a result, people are confused and misinformed about the relationship between what they eat and their risk of growing fat. He expands that thesis in the new book, arguing that the same confused reasoning and poor science has led to misconceptions about the relation between diet and heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer, dementia, diabetes and, again, obesity. When it comes to determining the ideal diet, he says, we have to ''confront the strong possibility that much of what we've come to believe is wrong.'' The best diet, he argues, is one loaded with protein and fat but very low in carbohydrates.
Taubes spent five years working on the book, which runs to more than 450 pages. The bibliography alone goes on for more than 60 pages. He also says he interviewed more than 600 doctors, researchers and administrators, though he adds that ''the appearance of their names in the text ... does not imply that they agree with all or even part of the thesis set forth in this book.'' Taubes does not bow to the current fashion for narrative nonfiction, instead building his argument case by case, considering the relationship between dietary fat and heart disease, carbohydrates and disease, diet and obesity. As a result, the book can be hard to read, tedious in many places and repetitious.
Yet much of what Taubes relates will be eye-opening to those who have not closely followed the science, or lack of science, in this area. (Disclosure: At one point he approvingly cites my articles on the lack of evidence that a high-fiber diet protects against colon cancer.) For example, he tells the amazing story of how the idea of a connection between dietary fat, cholesterol and heart disease got going and took on a life of its own, despite the minimal connection between dietary cholesterol and blood cholesterol for most people. He does not mince words. ''From the inception of the diet-heart hypothesis in the early 1950s, those who argued that dietary fat caused heart disease accumulated the evidential equivalent of a mythology to support their belief. These myths are still passed on faithfully to the present day.'' The story is similar for salt and high blood pressure, and for dietary fiber and cancer.
In fact, Taubes convincingly shows that much of what is believed about nutrition and health is based on the flimsiest science. To cite one minor example, there's the notion that a tiny bit of extra food, 50 or 100 calories a day -- a few bites of a hamburger, say -- can gradually make you fat, and that eating a tiny bit less each day, or doing something as simple as walking a mile, can make the weight slowly disappear. This idea is based on a hypothesis put forth in a single scientific paper, published in 2003. And even then it was qualified, Taubes reports, by the statement that it was ''theoretical and involves several assumptions'' and that it ''remains to be empirically tested.'' Nonetheless, it has now become the basis for an official federal recommendation for obesity prevention.
But the problem with a book like this one, which goes on and on in great detail about experiments new and old in areas ranging from heart disease to cancer to diabetes, is that it can be hard to know what has been left out. For example, Taubes argues at length that people get fat because carbohydrates in their diet drive up the insulin level in the blood, which in turn encourages the storage of fat. His conclusion: all calories are not alike. A calorie of fat is much less fattening than a calorie of sugar.
It's known, though, that the body is not so easily fooled. Taubes ignores what diabetes researchers say is a body of published papers documenting a complex system of metabolic controls that, in the end, assure that a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. He also ignores definitive studies done in the 1950s and '60s by Jules Hirsch of Rockefeller University and Rudolph Leibel of Columbia, which tested whether calories from different sources have different effects. The investigators hospitalized their subjects and gave them controlled diets in which the carbohydrate content varied from zero to 85 percent, and the fat content varied inversely from 85 percent to zero. Protein was held steady at 15 percent. They asked how many calories of what kind were needed to maintain the subjects' weight. As it turned out, the composition of the diet made no difference.
As I read Taubes's book, I kept wondering how he would deal with an obvious question. If low-carbohydrate diets are so wonderful, why is anyone fat? Most people who struggle with their weight have tried these diets and nearly all have regained everything they lost, as they do with other diets. What is the problem?
On Page 446, he finally tells us. Carbohydrates, he says, are addictive, and we've all gotten hooked. Those who try to break the habit start to crave them, just as an alcoholic craves a drink or a smoker craves a cigarette. But, he adds, if they are addictive, that ''implies that the addiction can be overcome with sufficient time, effort and motivation.''
I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. =============== October 28, 2007
In her review of “Good Calories, Bad Calories” (Oct. 7), Gina Kolata dismisses a central thesis of my book — that weight gain is determined by the hormonal regulation of fat tissue and not by calories-in-minus-calories-out — by claiming that I ignore “definitive studies,” which she then proceeds to seriously misrepresent. Rudolph Leibel and Jules Hirsch did not, as Kolata says, do the studies in the “1950s and ’60s,” when Leibel would have still been making his way from grade school through medical school. Rather, the study — singular — published in 1992, was a reanalysis of data gathered (on only 16 subjects) originally by Edward Ahrens of Rockefeller University. Ahrens was not studying weight regulation, ironically, but the ability of carbohydrates to elevate triglyceride levels and so increase heart disease risk. The Leibel-Hirsch paper itself argues against the use of the term “definitive” to describe it — i.e., it is rife with caveats. Among them, that Ahrens’s subjects could have gained 15 pounds a year from a unique fattening effect of carbohydrates — 150 pounds of excess fat in a decade — and Leibel and Hirsch’s analysis would have been unable to detect it. Moreover, only one of Ahrens’s subjects was obese, which means, as Leibel and Hirsch explain, that “similar results might not have been obtained in a group of obese individuals or lean individuals susceptible to obesity.” Since the hypothesis I discuss in “Good Calories, Bad Calories” is intended to explain the cause of obesity in precisely these individuals, it is odd to undercut my credibility by accusing me of leaving out a study that did not actually address that issue.
Kolata also evokes the authority of “diabetes researchers” who allegedly say that all we need to know about fattening is that “a calorie is a calorie is a calorie.” What makes this particularly curious is that diabetes researchers, more so than those in any other medical discipline, are intimately aware of the radically different effect of proteins, carbohydrates and fats on insulin secretion and so on the progression and symptoms of diabetes. They’re also all too aware that insulin makes diabetics fat. As James Rosenzweig, director of the office of disease management at the Joslin Diabetes Center in Boston, phrased it, using the technical terminology, weight gain on insulin therapy can “result from the direct lipogenic effects of insulin on adipose tissue, independent of food intake.” Put simply, insulin causes us to accumulate fat in our fat tissue (what Rosenzweig means by “lipogenic”) regardless of whether we consume more calories. The question Kolata does not address is why this would be accepted as a cause of fattening in diabetics, but rejected as a potential cause of fattening in the rest of us. And since insulin is secreted primarily in response to the carbohydrates in our diet, why would we dismiss with such alacrity, as Kolata does, the notion that carbohydrates may be the fundamental cause of weight gain and obesity?
At a time when obesity and diabetes are now considered to be epidemic in America, it seems peculiar that Kolata would not be willing to examine more rigorously any reasonable alternative hypotheses for the continuing epidemics, rather than dismiss them with this kind of faux science that my book makes clear is too often found in the work of both researchers in the field and, regrettably, journalists who cover it regularly.
Gary Taubes =========================================
Gina Kolata replies:
Jules Hirsch, who in fact says he did do the study, said he and Rudolph Leibel published the data in 1992 precisely to counteract arguments like those made by Gary Taubes. And while the study was initiated to answer another question, it also addressed the question of whether calories from carbohydrates and calories from fats are different in terms of their calorie-for-calorie contribution to body weight. Taubes says in his book that calories from carbohydrates are intrinsically more fattening, so this is a central question. The authors conclude: “Variations in fat intake from 0 percent to 70 percent of total energy under conditions of equal energy intake produced no significant changes in body weight over periods of observations averaging 33 days.” In other words, a calorie was a calorie was a calorie.
As Taubes amply documents in his book, low-carbohydrate diets have been popularized periodically since the 19th century. Best-selling book after best-selling book promoted them. Yet if they work so well, why are so many people still searching for an effective way to lose weight?
Taubes says the reason people fail on low-carbohydrate diets is that they have not overcome their addiction to carbohydrates. But that begs the question, and Taubes provides no scientific evidence to back up that claim.
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Hollywood - 29 Oct 2007 14:25 GMT > Since this was off the beaten path, I thought some might > find the exchange between Taubes the NYT Book reviewer [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > from the educational, media & medical communities > encouraging the addiction. What I thought was most interesting in Kolata being assigned to review the book is that she is excoriated, personally, throughout the book. She and the rest of the Times nutrition/health staff are raked throughout the book, with the lone good thing said about anyone at the Times said about Kolata. Since the NYTimes book reivew regularly farms out reviews to qualified outsiders, I think this is something the Times ombudsman might want to take a look at, because the old painted lady's credibility as a source for quality information without biases (much less grudges) is at stake.
Very curious. If I were Taubes, in my response, I might've brought this issue up. Raise all the facts, then speculate on Kolata's real motivations (she has a book out, after all, that probably looks very stupid with Good Calories, Bad Calories on the market, which both presents the flaws with her underlying theories, the flaws with her reporting over a 20 year span, and an alternative hypothesis that blows her book out of the water). I dunno about you, but with all that going on, can she really read it with unvarnished eyes?
Jim - 29 Oct 2007 14:59 GMT >>Since this was off the beaten path, I thought some might >>find the exchange between Taubes the NYT Book reviewer [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > blows her book out of the water). I dunno about you, but with > all that going on, can she really read it with unvarnished eyes? MEOW ! ~
But the suggestions of misreading the literature are more than a mere catfight.
Well, there is an essential aspect called "do you know more about the scientific method than a five year old?"
The book is a massive statement that the medical/nutrition industry is far from scientific, as have been most of the conventional nutrition writers.
In her book, she portrayed the massive criticism of Banting as did Taubes. Yet, she neglected the entire role of poor quality science, I believe.
Taubes referenced 7 of her works, but not her recent book, which may have been too recently published to get into the slow book publishing/printing/distributing cycle.
Taubes lists himself only twice in the bibliography.
RRzVRR - 30 Oct 2007 01:49 GMT >> Since this was off the beaten path, I thought some might >> find the exchange between Taubes the NYT Book reviewer [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > quality information without biases (much less grudges) is at > stake. I guess they thought Jane Brody would be just too amusing?
> Very curious. If I were Taubes, in my response, I might've brought > this issue up. Raise all the facts, then speculate on Kolata's real [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > blows her book out of the water). I dunno about you, but with > all that going on, can she really read it with unvarnished eyes?
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Cubit - 29 Oct 2007 15:53 GMT An interesting debate. My personal experience is that a calorie is a calorie, but, but, the type and quantity of calorie influences eating behavior.
It is odd that the best study they can find where subjects were hospitalized to prevent cheating had only 16 subjects. Bad science.
I experimented with increasing calories within the very low carb context. Over a month, there seemed to be a weight gain consistent with the calories. I had read once, that the body had a maximum capacity for absorbing fat in a day. If so, I should have been able to have one very high fat day and get away with it. -not so My Fitday monthly averages stayed consistent in the relationship of calories and weight.
Perhaps, the factors Taubes taut influence where the fat goes on the body. That could confuse things.
I expect to get his book for Christmas.
> Since this was off the beaten path, I thought some might find the exchange > between Taubes the NYT Book reviewer Kolata interesting. [quoted text clipped - 188 lines] > question, and Taubes provides no scientific evidence to back up that > claim. Susan - 29 Oct 2007 16:28 GMT > An interesting debate. My personal experience is that a calorie is a > calorie, but, but, the type and quantity of calorie influences eating > behavior. A calorie is not a calorie:
BioMed Central Page 1 of 5 (page number not for citation purposes) Nutrition Journal Review Open Access "A calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of thermodynamics Richard D Feinman*1 and Eugene J Fine1,2 Address: 1Department of Biochemistry, State University of New York Downstate Medical Center, Brooklyn, NY 11203 USA and 2Department of Nuclear Medicine, Jacobi Medical Center, Bronx, NY 10461 USA Email: Richard D Feinman* - rfeinman@downstate.edu; Eugene J Fine - efine@downstate.edu * Corresponding author Abstract The principle of "a calorie is a calorie," that weight change in hypocaloric diets is independent of macronutrient composition, is widely held in the popular and technical literature, and is frequently justified by appeal to the laws of thermodynamics. We review here some aspects of thermodynamics that bear on weight loss and the effect of macronutrient composition. The focus is the so-called metabolic advantage in low-carbohydrate diets – greater weight loss compared to isocaloric diets of different composition. Two laws of thermodynamics are relevant to the systems considered in nutrition and, whereas the first law is a conservation (of energy) law, the second is a dissipation law: something (negative entropy) is lost and therefore balance is not to be expected in diet interventions. Here, we propose that a misunderstanding of the second law accounts for the controversy about the role of macronutrient effect on weight loss and we review some aspects of elementary thermodynamics. We use data in the literature to show that thermogenesis is sufficient to predict metabolic advantage. Whereas homeostasis ensures balance under many conditions, as a general principle, "a calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of thermodynamics. Review The recent awareness of an epidemic of obesity coincides with, and may have contributed to a dramatic increase in the popularity of a variety of low carbohydrate diets. This rapid switch in dietary habits of a significant part of the population, and the virtual revolution in the food industry, is unusual in that it stands in direct opposition to long-standing recommendations of the majority of the nutritional and medical establishment (e.g. [1,2]). Despite isolated examples, such as a recent editorial by Walter Willet pointing to the need to understand low carbohydrate diets [3], there is still little real acceptance by nutrition professionals or health organizations. One aspect of these diets that has been especially controversial is the so-called metabolic advantage – the idea that more weight may be lost calorie for calorie compared with diets of higher carbohydrate content. We recently reviewed the literature on metabolic advantage [4]. We showed that there is a sufficient number of reports in the literature to establish the existence of metabolic advantage and we tabulated results from ten or so studies demonstrating that low carbohydrate diets can lead to greater weight loss than isocaloric low fat diets. The reports we cited have frequently been met with the criticism that the data could not be right because they would violate the laws of thermodynamics ([5,6]). An example is the recent demonstration of metabolic advantage in a small, pilot study [7] which, despite its preliminary status, was extremely well controlled. Three groups were studied: A low carbohydrate group (LoCHO = 1800 Published: 28 July 2004
Nutrition Journal 2004, 3:9 doi:10.1186/1475-2891-3-9 Received: 21 April 2004 Accepted: 28 July 2004 This article is available from: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/3/1/9 © 2004 Feinman and Fine; licensee BioMed Central Ltd. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0), which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited. Nutrition Journal 2004, 3:9 http://www.nutritionj.com/content/3/1/9 Page 2 of 5 (page number not for citation purposes) kcal for men; 1500 kcal for women), a low fat group (LoFat, 1800 and 1500); a third group also consumed a low carbohydrate diet but an additional 300 kcalories were provided (LoCHO+300, 2100 and 1800). The order of average amount of weight lost was LoCHO = 23 lbs, LoCHO+300 = 20 lbs LoFat = 17 lbs. This work received a good deal of attention in the popular press. Media reports, however, included comments of experts that "It doesn't make sense, does it?" "It violates the laws of thermodynamics. No one has ever found any miraculous metabolic effects." ([5]). If this is an accurate quotation, it is odd indeed. Miraculous, or otherwise, a metabolic effect was found. In the absence of an identifiable methodological error, experimental data has to be accepted and numerous investigations, in fact, serve as precedents for Greene et al.'s findings (Reviews: [4,8]). In our previous review of metabolic advantage [4] we showed that there is, in fact, no theoretical violation of the laws of thermodynamics, and we provided a plausible mechanism. In general the pathways for gluconeogenesis that are required in order to supply obligate glucose (e.g. to brain and CNS), in combination with increased protein turnover, could account for the missing energy. Here, we simplify the thermodynamic argument and review some of the relevant principles. We show, moreover, that wellestablished data in the traditional nutritional literature predict metabolic advantage and no one should be surprised. The ironic conclusion is that the principle that weight gain on isocaloric diets must always be independent of macronutrient composition would violate the second law of thermodynamics. What do we mean by "a calorie is a calorie?" Because it is a colloquial phrase, it is important to understand exactly what it is meant by "a calorie is a calorie." The most common meaning is that is it impossible for two isocaloric diets to lead to different weight loss. Frequently, the concept is justified by reference to the "laws of thermodynamics", but an explicit connection has never been spelled out. More recently, Buchholz & Schoeller [10] appear to identify "a calorie is a calorie" with the first law of thermodynamics. They also admit that high protein / low carbohydrate diets can lead to greater weight loss than isocaloric low fat diets in agreement with our assessment [4]. Nonetheless they maintain that "a calorie is a calorie," now justifying it by their connection of the phrase to the concept of energy conservation. It is important to point out that no study of isocaloric diets has ever claimed that the first law of thermodynamics is not true. Buchholz & Schoeller [10] have limited themselves by only including the first law and, therefore, do not understand how the differential weight loss could occur and think it "deserves further study." Our major point here is that there is more than one law of thermodynamics and that a more accurate understanding of the role of the second law shows that differential weight loss is not inconsistent with any physical principle. Thermodynamics The idea that "a calorie is a calorie" comes from a misunderstanding of the laws of thermodynamics. There are two laws of thermodynamics. (The zeroth law that establishes the concept of temperature and the third law that describes absolute zero are not relevant here). When speaking of "the laws of thermodynamics" it is important to be sure that one is including the second law. The first law is very different in character from the second law [9,11,12]. The first law is a conservation law: it says that the form of energy may change, but the total is always conserved. The second law is a dissipation law: it defines a quantity, the entropy, S, which we traditionally identify with disorder or high probability. The second law says that in any (real) irreversible process, the entropy must increase (ΔS > 0); balance is not expected. Entropy is, in fact, identifiable with irreversibility. It is important to understand that it is the second law that drives chemical reactions. The first law is a bookkeeping law and tells us that the total energy attributed to work, heat and changes in chemical composition will be constant. It does not tell us whether such a reaction will occur, or if it does, what the relative distributions of the forms of energy will be. To predict the tendency of the reaction to occur, we must employ the second law that says the entropy must increase. In a chemical reaction, at constant temperature and pressure, the entropic and energetic effects are combined into the change in the Gibbs free energy, ΔG, whose sign predicts the direction of reaction, and whose magnitude indicates the maximum amount of work realizable from the reaction. PFaigthuwreay 1s for oxidation of macronutrients Pathways for oxidation of macronutrients. Nutrition Journal 2004, 3:9 http://www.nutritionj.com/content/3/1/9 Page 3 of 5 (page number not for citation purposes) Application of ΔG' To understand the implications of "a calorie is a calorie," that energy yield could be path-independent and the same for all diets consider that it implies that carbohydrate and protein are equivalent fuels as shown in Figure 1. The diagram indicates that, because it is a state variable, the free energy (ΔG') for Path 1 must be equal to that for path 2 + 3. If the ΔG' values for path 1 and path 2 are taken to be their calorimeter values, they will be approximately equal (~4 kcal/g, path 1 corrected for ureagenesis). This means that ΔG' for path 3, the conversion of protein to carbohydrate (also corrected) must be about zero. There exists at least one condition where this is not true, the standard state; it is generally considered that gluconeogenesis from one mole of alanine requires about 6 ATP [13,14]. Of course free energies are concentration dependent, so in vivo values will differ from standard state values but they are continuous functions of the concentrations and there will be numerous conditions under which ΔG' is not zero. In other words, assuming that protein and carbohydrate are energetically equivalent leads to a contradiction. Inefficiency The second law was developed in the context of the industrial revolution and the attempt to understand the efficiency of machines. The law describes the theoretical limits on the efficiency of engines and applies as well to living (irreversible) systems. The second law says that no machine is completely efficient. Some of the available energy is lost as heat and in the internal rearrangement of chemical compounds and other changes in entropy. In other words, although the first law holds even in irreversible processes – energy is still conserved – the second law says that something is lost, something is unrecoverable. The efficiency of a machine is dependent on how the machine works and, for a biochemical machine, the nature of the fuel and the processes enlisted by the organism. A simple example is the inefficiency of low-test gasoline in high compression gasoline engines. If a "calorie is a calorie" were true, nobody would pay extra for high test gasoline. (The calorimeter values of a gasoline will be the same whether or not it contains an antiknock compound). In weight loss diets, of course, inefficiency is desirable and is tied to hormonal levels and enzyme activities TFhigeu dreep 2endence of effective calories on % carbohydrate in a 2000 kcal diet The dependence of effective calories on % carbohydrate in a 2000 kcal diet. Effective calories were determined by subtracting the losses due to thermogenesis as described in the text. Nutrition Journal 2004, 3:9 http://www.nutritionj.com/content/3/1/9 Page 4 of 5 (page number not for citation purposes) Efficiency and thermogenesis In nutrition, one component of inefficiency is measured in thermogenesis (thermic effect of feeding), or the heat generated in processing food. There is a large literature on this subject and the general conclusion, as summarized in a recent review by Jéquier [15], is that thermic effects of nutrients is approximately 2–3 % for lipids, 6–8 % for carbohydrates, and 25–30% for proteins. It is interesting that this data itself might be enough to explain metabolic advantage. Here we took the average of Jéquier's values (2.5, 7 and 27.5 % for fat, CHO and protein) and calculated the effective energy yield for a 2000 kcal diet. If we assume a diet composition of CHO:fat: protein of 55:30:15, within the range of commonly recommended diets, the calculated effective yield is 1848 kcal. We now consider the effect of reducing carbohydrate progressively and substituting the calories removed equally between fat and protein. Figure 2 shows that the wasted calories due to thermogenesis increase as carbohydrate is reduced and reach 100 kcal at 21 % carbohydrate. This value of 100 kcal is recommended by several professionals as the goal for daily weight reduction (e.g. [16]). Notably, at 8 % CHO, the value for the early phase of the Atkins [17], South Beach [18] or Protein Power diets [19], 140 kcalories are lost as heat. Now, there will be metabolic accommodations and one can't predict that the ratios will stay the same over a long term diet, but the calculations show that the possibility of metabolic advantage should not come as a surprise. Recommendations for fighting obesity frequently call for small reductions in calories [16]. In fact, given the resistance of steady state systems to small perturbations it is doubtful that this is a promising strategy. Nonetheless, taking the goal at face value, if it could be achieved by a simple change in macronutrient composition, such a method would seem worthy of serious consideration. The arguments above show that such a phenomenon is possible. There are plausible arguments for how it could take place and substantial experimental evidence for its occurrence [4]. Conclusions A review of simple thermodynamic principles shows that weight change on isocaloric diets is not expected to be independent of path (metabolism of macronutrients) and indeed such a general principle would be a violation of the second law. Homeostatic mechanisms are able to insure that, a good deal of the time, weight does not fluctuate much with changes in diet – this might be said to be the true "miraculous metabolic effect" – but it is subject to many exceptions. The idea that this is theoretically required in all cases is mistakenly based on equilibrium, reversible conditions that do not hold for living organisms and an insufficient appreciation of the second law. The second law of thermodynamics says that variation of efficiency for different metabolic pathways is to be expected. Thus, ironically the dictum that a "calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of thermodynamics, as a matter of principle. The analysis above might be said to be over-kill although it is important, intellectually, not to invoke the laws of thermodynamics inappropriately. There are also, however, practical consequences. The seriousness of the obesity epidemic suggests that we attack it with all the means at our disposal. Metabolic advantage with low carbohydrate diets is well established in the literature. It does not always occur but the important point is that it can occur. To ignore its possibilities and to not investigate the precise conditions under which it appears would be cutting ourselves off from potential benefit. The extent to which metabolic advantage will have significant impact in treating obesity is unknown and it is widely said in studies of low carbohydrate diets that "more work needs to be done." However, if the misconception is perpetuated that there is a violation of physical laws, that work will not be done, and if done, will go unpublished due to editorial resistance. Attacking the obesity epidemic will involve giving up many old ideas that have not been productive. "A calorie is a calorie" might be a good place to start. Competing interests None declared. References 1. Saltos E: The Food Pyramid-Food Label Connection. [http:// vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fdpyrmid.html]. 2. American Heart Association guidelines for weight management programs for healthy adults. AHA Nutrition Committee. Heart Dis Stroke 1994, 3:221-228. 3. Willett WC: Reduced-carbohydrate diets: no roll in weight management? Ann Intern Med 2004, 140:836-837. 4. Feinman RD, Fine EJ: Thermodynamics and Metabolic Advantage of Weight Loss Diets. Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders 2003, 1:209-219. 5. Rolls BJ: . quoted in October 13, 2003 CBS News [http:// www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/15/health/main540776shtml] . 6. Bray GA: Low-Carbohydrate Diets and Realities of Weight Loss. JAMA 2003, 289:1853-1855. 7. Greene P, Willett W, Devecis J, A. Skaf: Pilot 12-week feeding weight-loss comparison: Low-fat vs. low-carbohydrate (ketogenic) diets. Obesity Research 2003, 11:A23. 8. Westman EC, Mavropoulos J, Yancy WS, Volek JS: A Review of Low-carbohydrate Ketogenic Diets. Curr Atheroscler Rep 2003, 5:476-483. 9. Kondepudi D, Prigogine I: Modern Thermodynamics. From Heat Engines to Dissipative Structures. Chichester, John Wiley & Sons; 1998. 10. Buchholz AC, Schoeller DA: Is a calorie a calorie? Volume 79. Am J Clin Nutr; 2004:8995-9065. 11. Caplan S. Roy, Essig A: Bioenergetics and linear nonequilibrium thermodynamics. The steady state. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; 1983. 12. Carter W. Craig: About Thermodynamics. [http://pruffle.mit.edu/ 300/Syllabus_web/node5html] 2002. 13. Voet D, Voet JG: Fundamentals of Biochemistry. 3rd edition. New York, John Wiley & Sons; 2004. 14. Devlin TM: Textbook of Biochemistry with Clinical Correlations. Fifth edition. New York, John Wiley Sons, Inc.; 2002. Publish with BioMed Central and every scientist can read your work free of charge "BioMed Central will be the most significant development for disseminating the results of biomedical research in our lifetime." Sir Paul Nurse, Cancer Research UK Your research papers will be: available free of charge to the entire biomedical community peer reviewed and published immediately upon acceptance cited in PubMed and archived on PubMed Central yours — you keep the copyright Submit your manuscript here: http://www.biomedcentral.com/info/publishing_adv.asp BioMedcentral Nutrition Journal 2004, 3:9 http://www.nutritionj.com/content/3/1/9 Page 5 of 5 (page number not for citation purposes) 15. Jequier E: Pathways to obesity. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 2002, 26 Suppl 2:S12-7. 16. Hill JO, Wyatt HR, Reed GW, Peters JC: Obesity and the environment: where do we go from here? Science 2003, 299:853-855. 17. Atkins RC: Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution. New York, Avon Books; 2002. 18. Agatston A: The South Beach Diet. New York, Random House; 2003. 19. Eades MR, Eades MD: Protein Power. New York, Bantam Books; 1996.
Roger Zoul - 31 Oct 2007 01:21 GMT Thanks for a nice review....I need to get back to my copy...I got distracted recently with a new computer and what is soon to be a new bike! :)
>I had to powerhouse my way through Taubes today as it's due back at the >library and can't be renewed as there's a waiting list for it cause they [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > reference book that should sit on my desk next to Bernstein and my book of > food counts.
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