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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2008Tell me not to worry about this :-)
Here's the real question... why on earth are we not losing weight? And I already know what the answer is: Don't worry about it as long as you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, and check again in a couple of weeks. But here's the more detailed story, such as it is. After a bumpy start to changing ways of eating (partly because of the holidays, partly because of it taking a while to convince my husband that we were on the right track, partly because of being really sick with some virus from hell for two straight weeks), we've been on a pretty strict 20-30 net carbs/day for a couple of weeks. Some variation, a few days closer to 40, but nothing above that. Not much of anything that could count as hidden carbs, other than Splenda in tea. Around 1800-2000 calories/day, which is a calorie level at which both of us should be able to lose weight by any measure (I'm not really counting calories, but I use a nutrition tracking program, so I know what they are). Lots of protein (following Protein Power more than Atkins, though I've read both). Plenty of water. And the general upshot of all of this is that neither of us is losing any weight. At all, in a couple of weeks. On one level, I sort of don't care, because the fact of the matter is that I feel better, I look better, my depression has subsided, I'm not tired all the time, and so on... I'm in this for life. And I can see a lot of what I'd call the adjustment things getting better... I'm not nauseated all the time, as I was in the beginning, not so headachy, so on. But my husband is much more severely obese than I am, and he really need to take off a little weight fairly quickly, because he's hit that point where it's hard for him to move around much at all. So while neither of us is looking for (or expecting) a quick fix, the lack of scale movement is a little worrisome, particularly for him. So it would be nice to know that this is "normal", if there is such a thing, or if anyone has any suggestions about what the problem could be (if there actually IS a problem). Nina nina, have you read all this? http://www.grossweb.com:80/asdlc/faq.htm i would suggest that you pay close attention to any article that talks about calories and not eating enough! best of luck! rosie > Here's the real question... why on earth are we not losing weight? > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Nina On Jan 22, 8:21 am, "readandpostrosie" <READANDPOS...@YAHOO.COM> wrote: > nina, > have you read all this? [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > - Show quoted text - You don't think eating 1800-2000 calories a day for someone trying to lose weight is enough? I'd say that to not lose a single pound in a couple weeks when at 20-30g of carb a day is unusual. Normally, you would lose at least several pounds in the first few days, most of that water. Are you on any medications that could account for this? I'd suggest posting a list of your daily diet for a couple days, as there may be some carbs there that you are missing. >On Jan 22, 8:21 am, "readandpostrosie" <READANDPOS...@YAHOO.COM> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >You don't think eating 1800-2000 calories a day for someone trying to >lose weight is enough? I do think it's enough, possibly more than enough, although both of us are enough overweight that we (in theory) should have to eat a lot more than that just to maintain. (Never seems to work like that, though...) >I'd say that to not lose a single pound in a couple weeks when at >20-30g of carb a day is unusual. Normally, you would lose at least >several pounds in the first few days, most of that water. Are you on >any medications that could account for this? I'd suggest posting a >list of your daily diet for a couple days, as there may be some carbs >there that you are missing. I can do that, but I figure it would just bore everyone silly. :-) I am pretty sure that I'm not missing any carbs, although I do put a fair amount of Splenda in my tea, and that's the only thing I don't really count. Neither of us are taking any medications that would account for it. I sort of keep expecting some more water weight loss, especially since I feel sort of intermittently bloated, but so far, not really. I still think that it's probably a matter of waiting it out and waiting for our metabolisms, which are probably very screwed up, to sort themselves out. > "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I can do that, but I figure it would just bore everyone silly. :-) Data beats speculation. You've already posted your current weights and heights to Roger Zoul. You have near 100 pounds to lose, your husband well over 100 pounds to lose. At that level most drop 5-20 pounds of water in the first two weeks then skip 1-2 weeks then resume fat-only loss in the range of 8 per month after that. The fact that you aren't losing like that must have a cause and that cause will be visible in the data. Post what you ate and drank, in what quantities, on what days. It matters and it can not be summarized in either calorie or carb counts. There are plenty of foods that have incorrect counts on their labels for various reasons. Data, data, data. At this point you're speculating and folks are speculating back at you. Post the data and the real work can begin. >> "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >and folks are speculating back at you. Post the data and the real >work can begin. Ok. :-) May take me a while to do that, though. > On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:02:08 -0800 (PST), "trad...@optonline.net" > [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Start your own online business. Sell ebooks/software. Full reprint rights. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Make money with your own website. Keep 100% of all profits. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn tons of cash online selling ebooks/software. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 The best online income opportunity. Operate your own ebusiness. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn big money by selling ebooks/software with your own website. Keep all profits for yourself. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 On Jan 22, 9:02 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net> wrote: > On Jan 22, 8:21 am, "readandpostrosie" <READANDPOS...@YAHOO.COM> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > several pounds in the first few days, most of that water. Are you on > any medications that could account for this? I'd suggest posting aStart your own online business. Sell ebooks/software. Full reprint rights. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Make money with your own website. Keep 100% of all profits. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn tons of cash online selling ebooks/software. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 The best online income opportunity. Operate your own ebusiness. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn big money by selling ebooks/software with your own website. Keep all profits for yourself. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 > list of your daily diet for a couple days, as there may be some carbs > there that you are missing.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - On Jan 22, 9:02 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net> wrote: > On Jan 22, 8:21 am, "readandpostrosie" <READANDPOS...@YAHOO.COM> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Start your own online business. Sell ebooks/software. Full reprint rights. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Make money with your own website. Keep 100% of all profits. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn tons of cash online selling ebooks/software. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 The best online income opportunity. Operate your own ebusiness. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn big money by selling ebooks/software with your own website. Keep all profits for yourself. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 >nina, >have you read all this? Yes, I have... sigh, I think I've read about everything in the universe at this point. All I do is read! >http://www.grossweb.com:80/asdlc/faq.htm > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >> >> Nina > On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:21:05 -0600, "readandpostrosie" > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Start your own online business. Sell ebooks/software. Full reprint rights. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Make money with your own website. Keep 100% of all profits. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn tons of cash online selling ebooks/software. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 The best online income opportunity. Operate your own ebusiness. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn big money by selling ebooks/software with your own website. Keep all profits for yourself. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 What do each of you weigh and how tall are both of you? Any post that includes caloric levels needs to include that too. We can't know if you're doing anything right if we have no idea what you're doing. A couple of week is not a long time. And when you say you're not really counting but you are...well, it doesn't make sense to me. You either are or you're not. I seriously doubt that either of you are eating too few calories. What are your activity levels? Doing any walking or stationary bike riding? > Here's the real question... why on earth are we not losing weight? > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Nina >What do each of you weigh and how tall are both of you? Any post that >includes caloric levels needs to include that too. We can't know if you're >doing anything right if we have no idea what you're doing. I don't think that this is actually about caloric levels at all... I just threw them in because it's one more piece of data, plus I read the occasional food diary that makes it look like people are trying to eat, say, less than 1000 calories a day or something like that, or are using low carb as a reason to say, I can have 20 burgers.... either of which might be a reason for problems. >A couple of week is not a long time. And when you say you're not really >counting but you are...well, it doesn't make sense to me. You either are or >you're not. I am not really counting calories, but since I track carbs in a nutrition program that *also* counts calories, I do know what they are. I can also tell you every vitamin and mineral in the universe, etc., because the program tracks them, but I'm not exactly counting them either! >I seriously doubt that either of you are eating too few calories. No, I don't think so, either. >What are your activity levels? Doing any walking or stationary bike riding? My husband can't really do much of anything. He has a couple of broken ribs from a car accident last summer that seem to have re-cracked themselves, and he's on very limited activity. I do aerobics a few times a week, and I lift weights, and I'm generally very active, anyway, mostly on my feet. >>What do each of you weigh and how tall are both of you? Any post that >>includes caloric levels needs to include that too. We can't know if >>you're >>doing anything right if we have no idea what you're doing. > > I don't think that this is actually about caloric levels at all... Why? I > just threw them in because it's one more piece of data, plus I read > the occasional food diary that makes it look like people are trying to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > etc., because the program tracks them, but I'm not exactly counting > them either! So, you're saying that you are limiting carbs without worrying about calories. So, are you looking at your average calorie level at all? Over a two-week period, what is the average calorie level for your and your husband? >>I seriously doubt that either of you are eating too few calories. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > broken ribs from a car accident last summer that seem to have > re-cracked themselves, and he's on very limited activity. Then, his only real option is to limit both carbs and calories. I do not believe that the two are of you are so special that both low carb and low calorie won't produce weight loss. And it's only been a couple of weeks, so it's doubtful that your metabolisms have dropped so far that you can't lose weight. > I do aerobics a few times a week, and I lift weights, and I'm > generally very active, anyway, mostly on my feet. What do you weigh? You do realize that we don't know you...so stating your weight won't be a problem here. It's not like we are going to judge you because if it. Many women can't lose weight eating 1800 kcals a day, you know. A 300+ lb man typically can...but if he's been sedentary for years perhaps even he cannot. If he moves around a lot, his chances are much better. Do either of you ever get hungry (even a little bit before meals) at your current food intake? >>>What do each of you weigh and how tall are both of you? Any post that >>>includes caloric levels needs to include that too. We can't know if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Why? Let me rephrase that. I don't think that we're eating an inappropriate calorie level. Clearly there is some level of calories that is important. > I >> just threw them in because it's one more piece of data, plus I read [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >two-week period, what is the average calorie level for your and your >husband? Average caloric intake for the last 2 weeks = 1800-2000 calories. I *am* looking at calorie levels, but mostly as a check to make sure that they are not extraordinarily high or low. A lot of the literature seems to suggest that overly high calorie levels will probably not cause you to gain weight on a low-carb diet, but you won't lose either. I kind of doubt that we are eating far too many calories, though. >>>I seriously doubt that either of you are eating too few calories. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >it's doubtful that your metabolisms have dropped so far that you can't lose >weight. No, I don't think so, either. But we come from a history of a couple of years of (very unsuccessful, I might add) low-fat dieting... and lots of other things. I think that, if anything, it's more that things have gotten sufficiently out of whack that it may take a little time to adjust. >> I do aerobics a few times a week, and I lift weights, and I'm >> generally very active, anyway, mostly on my feet. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >perhaps even he cannot. If he moves around a lot, his chances are much >better. I don't really care about stating my weight. I weigh about 290 lbs, 5' 8", large frame, and I've always been able to lose weight at this calorie level as long as I keep moving. My husband weighs about 530 lbs, 5' 11". He's actually down from nearly 600 two years ago... long story. He'd be moving around a lot more if he could, but at the moment, it's trying too hard to exercise at this weight that is actually increasing a number of physical problems. >Do either of you ever get hungry (even a little bit before meals) at your >current food intake? Yes, we do. Not starving hungry, as we did on a low fat diet. Why do you ask? >>>>What do each of you weigh and how tall are both of you? Any post that >>>>includes caloric levels needs to include that too. We can't know if [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > inappropriate calorie level. Clearly there is some level of calories > that is important. After reading the info you have written below, I agree. >> I >>> just threw them in because it's one more piece of data, plus I read [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > won't lose either. I kind of doubt that we are eating far too many > calories, though. Certainly you're not eating far too many calories. However, your levels may be such that your rate of loss is slower than you'd expect. But then again, do you truly know what to expect? Guidelines on metabolic rate are just that... I say stay the course for now as long as the two of you feel fine. Try to do everything right for an extended time before coming to conclusions. >>>>I seriously doubt that either of you are eating too few calories. >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > things have gotten sufficiently out of whack that it may take a little > time to adjust. That may very well be true - especially given the info you have supplied below. >>> I do aerobics a few times a week, and I lift weights, and I'm >>> generally very active, anyway, mostly on my feet. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > moment, it's trying too hard to exercise at this weight that is > actually increasing a number of physical problems. I do think that it might be wise for him to concentrate mainly on controling his diet at this point. Trying to do too much would definitely work toward the negative for him at that weight. >>Do either of you ever get hungry (even a little bit before meals) at your >>current food intake? > > Yes, we do. Not starving hungry, as we did on a low fat diet. Why do > you ask? I think that if you're a bit hungry before meals and you don't overeat as a result (and it sounds as if you're not) then you'll eventually show weight loss, especially if you're on a LC diet with no hidden carbs. Have you tried the liquid Splenda? Perhaps you're getting too many extra carbs with the packets... I suggest you stay the course (after re-checking for hidden carbs) and if no progress shows up in a couple more weeks, start easing the calories down a bit lower. <snipped a lot of the middle> >Certainly you're not eating far too many calories. However, your levels may >be such that your rate of loss is slower than you'd expect. But then again, >do you truly know what to expect? Guidelines on metabolic rate are just >that... That's one of those things that just drives me crazy. You know, if you take any of those standard "how many calories can you eat" calculators, and you put in a really high weight, it will tell you that you can maintain at, say, 4500 calories. If this were true, my husband would have been creating a calorie deficit over the last two years sufficient to lose a pound every two days or so. Metabolic rates differ, insulin resistance differs, everything in the universe differs... and when you get high enough in weight, I don't think a simple linear formula (particularly on calories) works anymore. >I say stay the course for now as long as the two of you feel fine. Try to >do everything right for an extended time before coming to conclusions. That's my gut feeling too (no pun intended!). >>>>>I seriously doubt that either of you are eating too few calories. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >his diet at this point. Trying to do too much would definitely work toward >the negative for him at that weight. That's the problem. It's actually hard to convince him that he shouldn't be trying to exercise... there's a very long history of some major depression problems, and it's like coming out of a fog and finding yourself double your weight. You want to do something about it. But in the short run, it's counterproductive. >>>Do either of you ever get hungry (even a little bit before meals) at your >>>current food intake? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >progress shows up in a couple more weeks, start easing the calories down a >bit lower. I actually just ordered the liquid Splenda a few days ago; I can't seem to find it in the stores here anywhere. That's the main source of hidden carbs that I can think of... we eat almost nothing packaged, but I do drink a lot of tea! Thanks, Roger. Input really helps. I actually feel ok about all of this, but he's worrying. And I worry about him, for obvious reasons. > <snipped a lot of the middle> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > differs... and when you get high enough in weight, I don't think a > simple linear formula (particularly on calories) works anymore. I agree 100%. >>I say stay the course for now as long as the two of you feel fine. Try to >>do everything right for an extended time before coming to conclusions. [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > finding yourself double your weight. You want to do something about > it. But in the short run, it's counterproductive. It can be hard to change a person who believes s/he ought to be doing a particular thing. Perhaps redirection is a better solution. For me, stationary cycling was a godsend, because it is very low impact. It can be done slowly, with little resistance, and over extended periods of time. I've seen those little jobs that seem to be nothing more than two pedals - which can be spun - attached to a stand. You can sit and pedal. Even that would be good for him as his legs would provide the resistance he needs to burn calories. It can add up if you do it every day while sitting at a desk or while watching the tube. It would help boost the metabolism, too. And let no one tell you that easy workouts don't count in the battle against weight. Just be sure you're controling the diet first as you don't have to burn calories you don't take in. Another possibility might be to simply move the arms in some pattern (up/down, right/left, in/out) while sitting. Even that will burn calories for a large person. You guys will just have to work through it. I can tell you from 1st hand experience that getting hurt via exercise can be a big show-stopper. Many people when they first start exercise tend to over do things. I say go real easy and work on getting the habit developed. Regular...consistent...and practicing doing things right over extended periods of time. The longer you can stay the course the better you'll be at it (that doesn't mean that you have to be perfect all the time and that you can't deviate from course a bit once in a while). Losing weight involves skill -- much more important than will-power. It takes time to develop these skills. Confidence will increase with time and success. Workouts can start becoming more intense and varied, too. In time, though. >>>>Do either of you ever get hungry (even a little bit before meals) at >>>>your [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > of hidden carbs that I can think of... we eat almost nothing packaged, > but I do drink a lot of tea! I'm not sure where in the world you live...but in the states, I've never seen any available other than on the web. > Thanks, Roger. Input really helps. I actually feel ok about all of > this, but he's worrying. And I worry about him, for obvious reasons. Invite him here. I, and I'm sure others here, understands how he feels. >It can be hard to change a person who believes s/he ought to be doing a >particular thing. Perhaps redirection is a better solution. For me, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >with time and success. Workouts can start becoming more intense and varied, >too. In time, though. This has just been the MOST frustrating thing, because it's so hard for him to do any kind of exercise at all. Can't do the stationary bike, too much stomach in the way (recumbent, same problem, plus it's hard to find equipment that's ok for his weight). We do have one of those pedal things, which is actually far more work than one would imagine, but then he recracked his ribs somehow, and doing just about anything is an issue. We were in a very serious car accident last summer; he broke an arm and three ribs; the ribs seemed to have healed and then he recracked them. The arm won't heal; he's going to need surgery but can't really have it at this weight... or if he did, the arm wouldn't heal properly, still, because it's hard to keep enough weight off it. Can't walk much... ribs again plus knees become painful fast. So I am trying like hell to convince him to mostly still STILL and not hurt himself for a month or so until everything heals more... and maybe a little weight melts away. 20-30 lbs. makes a lot of this considerably better. He gets very frustrated, and there are only so many times that I can say, really, it will get better, be patient. >>>>>Do either of you ever get hungry (even a little bit before meals) at >>>>>your [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Invite him here. I, and I'm sure others here, understands how he feels. I'm trying to convince him to come here, but... well, again, long story, but it's been a long road to get him to the point of really beginning to care about his weight, and I think he's not quite ready to leap into talking about it. Or something like that. He wanted me to post this question, though, and I've read him a lot of the responses, so who knows? >>It can be hard to change a person who believes s/he ought to be doing a >>particular thing. Perhaps redirection is a better solution. For me, [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > heals more... and maybe a little weight melts away. 20-30 lbs. makes > a lot of this considerably better. Yes, I agree that exercise is ill-advised for him. The focus should only be on weight loss, which means figuring out how to ge the scales to move. > He gets very frustrated, and there are only so many times that I can > say, really, it will get better, be patient. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > beginning to care about his weight, and I think he's not quite ready > to leap into talking about it. I was exactly the same way. For some reason, for me anyway, if I can't talk about the problem then I can't address it. Merely talking about it was enough to get a focus started that allowed me to deal with it. > Or something like that. He wanted me > to post this question, though, and I've read him a lot of the > responses, so who knows? One advantage of the net is that he can talk without having others look at him and thus try to act as judges. Of course, we still have those who enjoy taking potshots, but they are really taking shots in the dark, huh? Good luck, Nina. > On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:05:49 -0500, "Roger Zoul" > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > I do aerobics a few times a week, and I lift weights, aStart your own online business. Sell ebooks/software. Full reprint rights. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Make money with your own website. Keep 100% of all profits. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn tons of cash online selling ebooks/software. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 The best online income opportunity. Operate your own ebusiness. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn big money by selling ebooks/software with your own website. Keep all profits for yourself. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 nd I'm > generally very active, anyway, mostly on my feet. > Here's the real question... why on earth are we not losing weight? > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > be (if there actually IS a problem). > Start your own online business. Sell ebooks/software. Full reprint rights. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Make money with your own website. Keep 100% of all profits. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn tons of cash online selling ebooks/software. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 The best online income opportunity. Operate your own ebusiness. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn big money by selling ebooks/software with your own website. Keep all profits for yourself. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 > Nina > Here's the real question... why on earth are we not losing weight? > > And I already know what the answer is: Don't worry about it as long as > you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, and check again in a > couple of weeks. Yep, two weeks is really too soon to be measuring success, but you hear about the "whoosh" so much, it'd be disappointing not to get one, right? > But here's the more detailed story, such as it is. > After a bumpy start to changing ways of eating (partly because of the > holidays, partly because of it taking a while to convince my husband > that we were on the right track, partly because of being really sick > with some virus from hell for two straight weeks), we've been on a > pretty strict 20-30 net carbs/day for a couple of weeks. Some > variation, a few days closer to 40, but nothing above that. Well, Atkins says to start just below 20, and PP starts at below 30. Even Schwarzbein starts some people with diabetes or major insulin resistance as low as 45 (including fiber). Forty may simply be too high for you, especially when you're just getting started and may still be very insulin resistant, and since sometimes inaccuracies in labeling and/or counting can mean that 40 is really 50 or 60. For example: > Not much of anything that could count as hidden carbs, other than > Splenda in tea. So you've been "pretty" strict for a couple weeks with "not much" in the way of uncounted carbs. Please believe me when I say that I'm not trying to be mean here and am only trying to help, but that sounds kind of vague. I've been there; I know how vagueness can sabotage the plan. I've told myself I was just getting a few extra carbs when the true numbers were far higher. Why not count the Splenda and anything else that might be hiding in that "not much," get the real total down to a max of 30 every day (since you mentioned later that you're mostly doing PP), and see how that goes? Food intolerances are another possibility; things like wheat can cause some people to bloat up and really hang onto weight. I'd cut out all grains, MSG-type substances, and possibly dairy for a while and see how that goes. I'd cut out the Splenda too, but that's easy for me to say, since I prefer my tea unsweetened. :-) > Around 1800-2000 calories/day, which is a calorie level at which > both of us should be able to lose weight by any measure (I'm not > really counting calories, but I use a nutrition tracking program, so I > know what they are). Lots of protein (following Protein Power more > than Atkins, though I've read both). Plenty of water. Since you're using a tracking program, I'd guess it'd be easy to post your menu from a couple of typical days. No, it won't bore us; that's often very illuminating. > And the general upshot of all of this is that neither of us is losing > any weight. At all, in a couple of weeks. On one level, I sort of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > call the adjustment things getting better... I'm not nauseated all the > time, as I was in the beginning, not so headachy, so on. That's great; a noticeable improvement in something like depression in just two weeks is excellent! > But my husband is much more severely obese than I am, and he really > need to take off a little weight fairly quickly, because he's hit that > point where it's hard for him to move around much at all. So while > neither of us is looking for (or expecting) a quick fix, the lack of > scale movement is a little worrisome, particularly for him. > So it would be nice to know that this is "normal", if there is such a > thing, or if anyone has any suggestions about what the problem could > be (if there actually IS a problem). I don't know that I'd call it normal, but it isn't drastically abnormal either. Most people do lose a few pounds of water weight in the first week or so, so if you haven't, that suggests to me that your carbs aren't quite low enough or some food intolerance is keeping you bloated. I'll chime in with the others who said, post that menu, and we'll see what we can figure out from there.  SignatureAaron -- 285/253/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz >> Here's the real question... why on earth are we not losing weight? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Yep, two weeks is really too soon to be measuring success, but you hear >about the "whoosh" so much, it'd be disappointing not to get one, right? That's right. I want my whoosh! Or something anyway. I'm actually totally sick of hearing how whoever lost 15 lbs. in one week or whatever. Yeah, it's water weight, but it's not like it wouldn't be a nice little psychological boost... >> But here's the more detailed story, such as it is. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >max of 30 every day (since you mentioned later that you're mostly doing >PP), and see how that goes? I know you're not trying to be mean. :-) I should say that what I mean by "pretty" strict is that although in the first few days we were closer to 40, we've been in the 20-30 range or less since then, and that when I say "not much" in the way of uncounted carbs I mean that I haven't been counting the Splenda, and that's it. The only reason why I haven't been counting that is that it's not in my tracking program and of course the label info says no carbs, which we know to be untrue, and, ok, I've been too lazy to track down the right info. I realize that what I originally said is pretty vague... more a matter of writing totally different sorts of things most of the time! >Food intolerances are another possibility; things like wheat can cause >some people to bloat up and really hang onto weight. I'd cut out all >grains, MSG-type substances, and possibly dairy for a while and see how >that goes. I'd cut out the Splenda too, but that's easy for me to say, >since I prefer my tea unsweetened. :-) I have to say that the *only* thing that I truly have an issue with giving up is my tea, with which I like Splenda and a little cream. I quit smoking, I quit drinking, I don't eat all sort of things.... I just want my damn tea! Anyway, we don't eat any grains at the moment, and we're both MSG intolerant so we don't eat anything that we know has it in it, and we're very light on dairy, although I agree that it's a possible culprit. >> Around 1800-2000 calories/day, which is a calorie level at which >> both of us should be able to lose weight by any measure (I'm not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >your menu from a couple of typical days. No, it won't bore us; that's >often very illuminating. Not that easy, really... it doesn't cut and paste, and so it's pretty tedious. But what we eat every day is roughly the same: Breakfast: 2 eggs, 2 slices bacon, 1 chicken sausage (2 carbs, 120 cal for the sausage) Lunch: 6-8 oz of whatever protein I have in the refrigerator, grilled, and either a small green salad or some vegetables left over from the night before. Dinner: About 8 oz of whatever protein, and then some vegetables... broccoli or cauliflower or green beans generally. Sometimes we have a few (1/3 cup) fried onions if it's steak. Extras: I use butter on vegetables, olive oil in various cooking, cream in tea, and Splenda in tea. Sometimes we split a ChocoPerfection bar in the evening (about 1 net carb and 100 cal. for half the bar). Occasionally we snack on a few pork rinds. If we're really hungry before bed, we have a piece of leftover chicken or a little cheese, something like that. All of that averages out to about 1800-2000 calories and 18-28 net carbs, depending mostly on how many vegetables. We eat almost nothing that comes in a package, so it's hard to find a lot of hidden carbs, unless I'm totally missing something. >> And the general upshot of all of this is that neither of us is losing >> any weight. At all, in a couple of weeks. On one level, I sort of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >That's great; a noticeable improvement in something like depression in >just two weeks is excellent! Well, I've been eating what I'd call "loosely" low carb for nearly 2 months now (that is, I cut out pretty much all white stuff and all grains, upped the protein and reduced the vegetables and fruit), and so a lot of that improvement has been sort of longer term. But I'm astonished how much better I feel in terms of both depression and fatigue. I am never, ever going to eat differently from this, and I know everyone says that, but when you see that kind of improvement in lifelong serious medical issues, it's hard not to be a complete fanatical convert, I think. >> But my husband is much more severely obese than I am, and he really >> need to take off a little weight fairly quickly, because he's hit that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I'll chime in with the others who said, post that menu, and we'll see >what we can figure out from there. Thanks, Aaron! > I realize that what I originally said is pretty vague... more a matter > of writing totally different sorts of things most of the time! It's difficult writing to practice. > I have to say that the *only* thing that I truly have an issue with > giving up is my tea, with which I like Splenda and a little cream. I > quit smoking, I quit drinking, I don't eat all sort of things.... I > just want my damn tea! You quit smoking? How recently? Quitting smoking usually means gaining roughly 20 pounds. If you quit in the last month maintaining is excellent. Think of it in terms like this - You have beat 20 pounds of gain. > Breakfast: 2 eggs, 2 slices bacon, 1 chicken sausage (2 carbs, 120 > cal for the sausage) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > broccoli or cauliflower or green beans generally. Sometimes we have a > few (1/3 cup) fried onions if it's steak. Great stuff. > Extras: I use butter on vegetables, olive oil in various cooking, > cream in tea, and Splenda in tea. Sometimes we split a > ChocoPerfection bar in the evening (about 1 net carb and 100 cal. for > half the bar). Occasionally we snack on a few pork rinds. If we're > really hungry before bed, we have a piece of leftover chicken or a > little cheese, something like that. The bar has numbers on the label I definitely don't believe. Many brands of bars use sugar alcohols or glycerine and then claim zero carb counts for them. I do not accept such claims. >> I realize that what I originally said is pretty vague... more a matter >> of writing totally different sorts of things most of the time! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >maintaining is excellent. Think of it in terms like this - You have >beat 20 pounds of gain. Actually, I quit smoking years ago, so I can't write it off to that. And didn't gain weight, weirdly enough. >> Breakfast: 2 eggs, 2 slices bacon, 1 chicken sausage (2 carbs, 120 >> cal for the sausage) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >brands of bars use sugar alcohols or glycerine and then claim zero >carb counts for them. I do not accept such claims. These are oliogofructose (probably misspelled), which is essentially ground chicory fiber, if I understand it correctly, and so no sugar alcohols.... which mostly I react badly to anyway. It's about the only thing of that sort that I'm willing to eat, and even that is pretty occasional. > That's right. I want my whoosh! Or something anyway. I'm actually > totally sick of hearing how whoever lost 15 lbs. in one week or > whatever. Yeah, it's water weight, but it's not like it wouldn't be a > nice little psychological boost... Absolutely; I don't blame you a bit. The "whoosh" is typically more like 3-7 pounds, though. > Anyway, we don't eat any grains at the moment, and we're both MSG > intolerant so we don't eat anything that we know has it in it, and > we're very light on dairy, although I agree that it's a possible > culprit. > But what we eat every day is roughly the same: > Breakfast: 2 eggs, 2 slices bacon, 1 chicken sausage (2 carbs, 120 > cal for the sausage) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > broccoli or cauliflower or green beans generally. Sometimes we have a > few (1/3 cup) fried onions if it's steak. > Extras: I use butter on vegetables, olive oil in various cooking, > cream in tea, and Splenda in tea. Sometimes we split a > ChocoPerfection bar in the evening (about 1 net carb and 100 cal. for > half the bar). Occasionally we snack on a few pork rinds. If we're > really hungry before bed, we have a piece of leftover chicken or a > little cheese, something like that. Yeah, that list looks pretty good. I don't know anything about that chocolate bar, so it would be my first suspect, just assuming it has some sort of artificial sweetener in it. Onions are fairly carby, but you're counting them. Bacon and sausage have some trace carbs, but they shouldn't add up to much. > All of that averages out to about 1800-2000 calories and 18-28 net > carbs, depending mostly on how many vegetables. We eat almost nothing > that comes in a package, so it's hard to find a lot of hidden carbs, > unless I'm totally missing something. It sure doesn't look like you're eating too much. You said your husband is over 500 pounds; isn't he awfully hungry on that few calories? Since he's only been at it two weeks, it's way too soon for him to start *forcing* his caloric intake up *or* down, but if he's hungry, there'd be nothing wrong with him eating more protein and fat. > Well, I've been eating what I'd call "loosely" low carb for nearly 2 > months now (that is, I cut out pretty much all white stuff and all [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > lifelong serious medical issues, it's hard not to be a complete > fanatical convert, I think. Yeah, I think what happens is, after a while people get used to feeling better and forget all the symptoms they had before, and then the commitment wavers. Sounds like you're on the right track, though. SignatureAaron -- 285/253/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz >> That's right. I want my whoosh! Or something anyway. I'm actually >> totally sick of hearing how whoever lost 15 lbs. in one week or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Absolutely; I don't blame you a bit. The "whoosh" is typically more >like 3-7 pounds, though. Anything would be nice. >> Anyway, we don't eat any grains at the moment, and we're both MSG >> intolerant so we don't eat anything that we know has it in it, and [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >you're counting them. Bacon and sausage have some trace carbs, but they >shouldn't add up to much. The chocolate is sweetened with oligofructose (however you spell it) which is chicory fiber and is 2 net carbs/bar and does not contain sugar alcohols (and that's a rare thing for us to have anyway). I count the carbs in the bacon/sausages... I don't think I'm missing anything. >> All of that averages out to about 1800-2000 calories and 18-28 net >> carbs, depending mostly on how many vegetables. We eat almost nothing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >*forcing* his caloric intake up *or* down, but if he's hungry, there'd >be nothing wrong with him eating more protein and fat. That's what I keep telling him. He's actually not hungry most of the time, a refreshing change after a year and a half of being starving at 2300 calories, low fat, as the dietician recommended. AND not losing weight, sigh. He occasionally does eat a little more than me because he gets hungrier, but that's usually stuff like tuna on low carb crispbread, something like that. Not much more than I'm eating. I really think that calorie requirements don't increase linearly... I mean, in theory, he could eat nearly twice as much as me, but that does NOT work. >> Well, I've been eating what I'd call "loosely" low carb for nearly 2 >> months now (that is, I cut out pretty much all white stuff and all [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >better and forget all the symptoms they had before, and then the >commitment wavers. Sounds like you're on the right track, though. For me, this is such an easy way to eat that I feel pretty confident about it, but, well, famous last words.... > But what we eat every day is roughly the same: In pattern but not detail, right? Different meats, different veggies, different cooking methods, different spices from day to day does equal variety. You want variety. > Breakfast: 2 eggs, 2 slices bacon, 1 chicken sausage (2 carbs, 120 > cal for the sausage) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > really hungry before bed, we have a piece of leftover chicken or a > little cheese, something like that. All great given the prior discussion of the bars. > All of that averages out to about 1800-2000 calories and 18-28 net > carbs, depending mostly on how many vegetables. We eat almost nothing > that comes in a package, so it's hard to find a lot of hidden carbs, > unless I'm totally missing something. If you want to take some action, any action, because you feel frustrarion at inaction, there is one thing I can suggest - Keeping the same total calories and carb counts for the day, try more fat and less protein. Slightly smaller portions of slightly less lean meats. Much smaller portions of much less lean meats. Or anywhere in that spectrum. It's a lession from the original experiment that set Dr Atkins on his low carb path - There was an experiment where a group ate 0 calories, a group ate 1000 calories of 90% carb, a group ate 1000 calories of 90% protein, and a group ate 100 calories of 90% fat. All groups lost, but the 90% fat group lost more than even the 0 calorie group. For the same total calories, more fat and less protein works better for loss. This is far from the obvious, but the obvious has lead to an explosive epidemic of obesity. Stuff that works best often goes in the face of the obvious. >> But what we eat every day is roughly the same: > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >explosive epidemic of obesity. Stuff that works best often goes >in the face of the obvious. Interesting. I haven't seen that study. Thanks, Doug! > tea. Around 1800-2000 calories/day, which is a calorie level at which > both of us should be able to lose weight by any measure (I'm not Firstly, you can only vouch for your own caloric intake; unless you follow your husband's every move, you don't really know what /he's/ taking in. Secondly, surely you don't think that you both need exactly the same caloric intake? 1800-2000 calories is in the ballpark of energy balance for the average woman who is mildly active. At this intake level, your body has no reason to dip into fat stores for energy, since there is no caloric deficit. If you're seriously overweight, your body can sustain quite a large caloric deficit. Figure about 30 calories for every pound of body fat per day. E.g. 50 pounds of body fat: 50 x 30 = 1550 kcal. This means that you are carrying 50 pounds of body fat, then (in dietary deficit conditions), your fat stores can supply as much as around 1500 calories of energy per day. Perhaps you're mistakenly calculating your intake based on your weight. Metabolic rate calculations should be based on lean mass only, not total mass. > On one level, I sort of > don't care, because the fact of the matter is that I feel better, I > look better, my depression has subsided, I'm not tired all the time, > and so on... These improvements could be attributed to the cessation of overeating. However, to lose fat, you have to more than just stop overeating. You have to undereat, do significant exercise, or a combination of both. >> tea. Around 1800-2000 calories/day, which is a calorie level at which >> both of us should be able to lose weight by any measure (I'm not > >Firstly, you can only vouch for your own caloric intake; unless you >follow your husband's every move, you don't really know what /he's/ >taking in. I have a pretty good idea, and neither of us is interested in lying about it. >Secondly, surely you don't think that you both need exactly the same >caloric intake? No, of course I don't think that. It just happens to be about what we eat. >1800-2000 calories is in the ballpark of energy balance for the >average woman who is mildly active. At this intake level, your body [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >weight. Metabolic rate calculations should be based on lean mass only, >not total mass. Yes, I know. I calculated this correctly. >> On one level, I sort of >> don't care, because the fact of the matter is that I feel better, I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >However, to lose fat, you have to more than just stop overeating. You >have to undereat, do significant exercise, or a combination of both. I wasn't overeating to begin with. This is actually about exactly the calorie level that I've been eating for two years. The main difference is the composition. <sigh> Some people lose slower than others. You want to google and read Sapphire's experience. Took her forever! Isn't your husband diabetic? Are his numbers controleld now? What's his fasting running? How about postprandials? Until his blood glucose is normalized, he may not lose weight. If he's still pumping out high levels of insulin to overcome his insulin resistance, he's likely to have trouble losing fat. Is he on meds? Metformin? Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >Some people lose slower than others. You want to google and read >Sapphire's experience. Took her forever! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Is he on meds? Metformin? He's not on meds, and I know you're going to scream (I do!) but he's not testing. Yeah, I know. I'm working on it. :: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:38:05 -0500, Jackie Patti <jpatti@ccil.org> :: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] :: He's not on meds, and I know you're going to scream (I do!) but he's :: not testing. Yeah, I know. I'm working on it. Well, at least he is on low carb, right? >:: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:38:05 -0500, Jackie Patti <jpatti@ccil.org> >:: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Well, at least he is on low carb, right? It's a start, although of course I'd like it even more if he were really leaping into it wholeheartedly and reading everything he could get his hands on and so forth. But this is someone who was so severely depressed six or seven years ago that he was seriously planning on not being around a lot longer. Very seriously. We've only been married about a year and half, and a LOT has gotten better, but it's not like it's all sorted out. Kind of what I was saying in another bit of this thread about his not being all that willing to talk about all of this yet. Anyway, his A1c readings and so forth have been low enough to keep him off meds, although I *know* that his blood sugar swings around with food (infinitely less so these days), and so I'm just hoping that he will continue to take more and more interest in getting himself well. If the weight would start coming off, that would be a big plus. :: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:33:41 -0500, "Roger Zoul" :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] :: himself well. If the weight would start coming off, that would be a :: big plus. I think Doug's advice about shifting his diet more to fat vs protein with particularly good for your hubby. Some folks (ie, some Type 2 DMs) will see a pronounced effect on BG when they eat a certain amount of protein, even if it not more than what some would consider adequate. And who knows, the shift might affect what happening with the scales. >:: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:33:41 -0500, "Roger Zoul" >:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >it not more than what some would consider adequate. And who knows, the >shift might affect what happening with the scales. I've been sitting here looking very carefully at what we've been eating for the last week, and I'm guessing that we are possibly eating too much protein, although fat has been about 65%-70% of calories most days. I'm still wondering if he's just not eating enough calories, although mostly he's never hungry these days, so it's hard to get him to eat more. (A truly weird turn of events, I have to say, after a year and a half of constantly saying, we have to be eating less.) >>:: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:33:41 -0500, "Roger Zoul" >>:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > to eat more. (A truly weird turn of events, I have to say, after a > year and a half of constantly saying, we have to be eating less.) A free-roaming critter simply will not starve itself! Barring some serious mental disorder, of course. And those in that group are usually very thin. Your hubby not being hungry much on 1800-2000 kcals is a demonstration of the true magic of low carb. If he keeping eating at this level his stomach will have to strink, BTW. There is no way that he won't eventually lose weight. He is simply not eating too little food. In fact, his calorie level being as it is is probably helping to control his BG, too. There is simply no way this isn't good for him. IMO. >>>:: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:33:41 -0500, "Roger Zoul" >>>:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >level being as it is is probably helping to control his BG, too. There is >simply no way this isn't good for him. IMO. I think mostly he would just love to think of himself as a free range critter. :-) "Nina" <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net> wrote in I'm still wondering if he's just not eating enough calories, > although mostly he's never hungry these days, so it's hard to get him > to eat more. (A truly weird turn of events, I have to say, after a > year and a half of constantly saying, we have to be eating less.) Nina, here is my experience as a type 2 diabetic. First up, no matter when I was huge or only a few pounds to lose, I cannot lose weight on more than 1200 calories per day and I am fairly active. even on 1200 I cannot lose weight if the mix isn't right. For example I lose nothing on extremely low carb and I lose little if I only have 3 meals a day. I am a grazer and it works very well for both weight loss and glucose control. Little and often. If I don't eat plenty of low carb veggies per day I plateau. Typically a day for me is a couple of eggs fro brekky with some sautéed mushrooms and a little cooked tomato (not much). Lunch is always a very large salad with some kind of protein (canned fish, deli meat like ham etc, chicken breast, eggs - whatever). Dinner I have some cooked plain meat with some cooked low carb veggies and small side salad. salads always have a home made vinaigrette (olive oil and a bit of balsamic vinegar infused with garlic). My snacks I have around every 2 hours. Might be a couple of dried apricots and a wedge of blue cheese or brie. A few olives, some celery and 1/2 a hard boiled egg. maybe some cut up raw veggies dipped in a little salsa, hummus, cottage cheese etc. I also eat a few nuts at a time (walnuts in my case). I drink plenty of water and fill up on sugar free jelly. Each of my meals is individually low carb which is great for my diabetes and as a whole probably no more than 80 gr net carbs a day over about 9 meals/snacks. The weight pours off me with that plan. I lost 45 kg. Sometimes food combinations really do need moving around. Mostly protein and very little carb for example seems to slow my metabolism right down. >"Nina" <ninaNOSPAM@economika.net> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >made vinaigrette (olive oil and a bit of balsamic vinegar infused with >garlic). The interesting thing, sort of, is that I would describe this as almost exactly what we were eating for the last year and a half, *except* that (in the pre-low carb days) we'd usually have a little potato or rice or something for dinner. Lunch, exactly the same. Dinner, pretty much identical. >My snacks I have around every 2 hours. Might be a couple of dried apricots >and a wedge of blue cheese or brie. A few olives, some celery and 1/2 a hard [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Sometimes food combinations really do need moving around. Mostly protein and >very little carb for example seems to slow my metabolism right down. Wow. 45 kg. is excellent. Thank you very much for writing this all out. It's so hard to know. Everyone's metabolism is different. I have this feeling that we're going to be playing with this for a while until we get it right. >> Some people lose slower than others. You want to google and read >> Sapphire's experience. Took her forever! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > He's not on meds, and I know you're going to scream (I do!) but he's > not testing. Yeah, I know. I'm working on it. I'm not the blood glucose police. ;) And I'm aware when one is depressed or ill or feels like crap, one doesn't always do what is best for one's self. Such is life - motivation isn't always there. But my thinking is if he's got high postprandials, he might consider going on metformin. It appears metformin lowers insulin resistance and makes weight loss easier. Though I don't tolerate it myself, it seems to be the best diabetes drug out there. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >>> Some people lose slower than others. You want to google and read >>> Sapphire's experience. Took her forever! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I'm not the blood glucose police. ;) :-) I'm trying not to be the blood glucose police... or, actually, the food police... either, but wow, it's really hard some days. Sigh. >And I'm aware when one is depressed or ill or feels like crap, one >doesn't always do what is best for one's self. Such is life - >motivation isn't always there. I think that maybe maybe maybe it's actually getting there for him. We have been on a VERY long road to this, but, well... I'm hoping. I think that the low carb eating also helps with some mood issues. It certainly does for me, anyway. So if he feels better, it will all work better. >But my thinking is if he's got high postprandials, he might consider >going on metformin. It appears metformin lowers insulin resistance and >makes weight loss easier. Though I don't tolerate it myself, it seems >to be the best diabetes drug out there. He is one of those people who invariably ends up with whatever the least-likely side effect on the list is... he tolerates almost no medication well at all. We had just an awful series of experiences with various doctors trying to get him to take a series of statins, and we're trying to keep him off whatever they want to give him because of a heart arrhythmia that doesn't seem to want to go away (and worries me a lot). So... well, if I can ever get him to test consistently, we could see. But I'm not optimistic. (One battle at a time, I guess.) |
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