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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / February 2008

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Do I need special Vitamins on this diet/woe/wol ???

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Cheese Wheels - 04 Feb 2008 14:21 GMT
Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?
If so, which ones and in what dosage?

thank you,
trader4@optonline.net - 04 Feb 2008 14:38 GMT
> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?
> If so, which ones and in what dosage?
>
> thank you,

Atkins recommended taking a multi-vitamin, at least during
induction.   During induction, your diet is more limited, with
vegeteables restricted, etc.   As you move on to more carbs and more
food choices, the vitamin is no more necessary or beneficial than on
any other diet.
H.L - 04 Feb 2008 15:34 GMT
> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?
> If so, which ones and in what dosage?
>
> thank you,

This is a matter of debate in several alternative diet plans. In my
mind, the answer is no. Humans survived with far less degenerative
diseases for ages without eating any pills. The low carbohydrate diet
plan is a way to eat more of what we have evolved to eat. Even Atkins
himself points this out quite clearly in his books.

It is far more important to get enough water and exercise. A proper
diet is not in itself a ticket to thriving health. It needs to be
properly joined with a reasonably healthy way of life.

The modern craze for supplements is driven in large by effective
marketing. The vitamine industry made a lot of money convincing people
that they need to take a lot of this and that. I find it wrong by the
Atkins center to sell any supplements at all.
DigitalVinyl - 20 Feb 2008 15:43 GMT
>> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?
>> If so, which ones and in what dosage?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>plan is a way to eat more of what we have evolved to eat. Even Atkins
>himself points this out quite clearly in his books.

Actually Atkins, in his book, EXPRESSLY recommends specific
supplements. For instance, Low Carbing often produces severe muscle
cramps. He mentions the 2 or 3 nutrients that in short supply cause
this. I experienced them and taking the supplement fixed the problem.
I believe is is caused by the lack of bread in a typical low-carber
diet.  

Most people don't realize that since the 1930s virtually every
industrialized nation uses bread as a vitamin and nutritional
supplement (called enrichment or enriched breads in the U.S.) in the
population. When white flour became mass-produced and enabled the mass
product of white breads after the turn of the century, it caused
several diseases through the population, both here and all other
industrialized nations. It would take 30 years to understand what,
they first thought were infectious diseases, were actually
deficiencies in the diet. The over-processed white flour lacked most
of the nutrition of real flour--because the nutrious parts were
largely perishable and had to be removed to enable longer shelf life.
So to say nutrient supplements aren't valueable is ridiculous, since
virtually none of us can return to a life where we live close to the
land and survive solely upon what we and our neighbors grow and eat no
mass produced food. And there is no evidence that the land, in each
limited range of ecosystems provides the diversity to long and healthy
lives. The earth runs in a yearly cycle. Mankind has chosen a weekly
cycle to live life by. We can't conserve energy and sleep more in
winter, we have jobs.

If you look at nature, the animal kingdom largely survives on numbers.
Animals breed heavily to ensure the survivial of the entire species,
not the survival on the individual. If the natural method of life is
what you are seeking than that includes a high mortality rate and an
equally high procreative stance. So the human race needs to survive,
it doesn't matter if the individual dies.

ALso there is no evidence that "Humans survived with far less
degenerative diseases for ages."  It is a fact that people live longer
now, we has census records dating back 200 years in this country
telling us how long people survived. It is a fact that women and
infants survive childbirth more now than back in the "good ole days"
when everyone lived without medical knowledge. Medical records based
upon ignorance (that frogs jumped in our throats at night" or "demons
possessed us") doesn't qualify as proof of much more than the
ignorance of that time. So I'm really not convinced of what EXACTLY is
wrong with our modern diet. I think, as I mention above, there is
evidence that processed foods are poorer quality and lack a complexity
of nutrition that nature provides. But how many of us are going to
grow our own wheat, grind, mill, and bake our own breads?

Your statement sounds like you discourage vitamins as not worth it,
and that appears reckless.

> It is far more important to get enough water and exercise. A proper
>diet is not in itself a ticket to thriving health. It needs to be
>properly joined with a reasonably healthy way of life.

Too much water can literally kill you, and will stress the body. There
is no medical basis whatsoever to the assertion that people need to
drink 8 glasses of water a day--an often repeated recommendation. It
appears to have been made up in gym-cultures and propigated as an
urban myth about what constitutes health. SO whether 2 glasses of
water or 14 glasses of water is right is completely unknown.  Telling
people to drink water is more empty than you see the push for
vitamins.

>The modern craze for supplements is driven in large by effective
>marketing. The vitamine industry made a lot of money convincing people
>that they need to take a lot of this and that. I find it wrong by the
>Atkins center to sell any supplements at all.

I agree that, like pharmeceuticals, vitamins and supplements should be
restircted and controlled in advertising and claims. On the other
side, the govenrment and doctors are dragging their feet on pushing
for understanding and advancement of nutrition. Pharmeceutical
companies will never go there because there is no patent worth owning.
It is one of, if not the most important area of public health and one
where not enough progress is being made cause it simply isn't as
marketable as telling everyone that they must reduce their cholesterol
number below X and the only way to do it is by taking our #1 profit
making pill for the rest of your life.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/288/225  month-start: 292 monthly-goal: 8 since: 12/01/2004
Low Carb started Jan 12, 2004.
Hakan Lane - 23 Feb 2008 20:33 GMT
>>> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?
>>> If so, which ones and in what dosage?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> plan is a way to eat more of what we have evolved to eat. Even Atkins
>> himself points this out quite clearly in his books.

> Actually Atkins, in his book, EXPRESSLY recommends specific
> supplements. For instance, Low Carbing often produces severe muscle
> cramps. He mentions the 2 or 3 nutrients that in short supply cause
> this. I experienced them and taking the supplement fixed the problem.
> I believe is is caused by the lack of bread in a typical low-carber
> diet.  

I don't agree with those recommendations. If you found that out, that
is good for you. My muscle cramps can not be described as severe.

> Most people don't realize that since the 1930s virtually every
> industrialized nation uses bread as a vitamin and nutritional
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> largely perishable and had to be removed to enable longer shelf life.
> So to say nutrient supplements aren't valueable is ridiculous,

Did you read about Weston Price's travels among native people?
Vilhjalmur Stefansson's discoveries of no heart disease among Eskimos?
Lutz paleolithic no bread diets? It is usually discovered that the
health of many native populations rapidly decline after switching to a
Western high carbohydrate, high sugar diet. Man evolved without
nutritional supplements.

> ALso there is no evidence that "Humans survived with far less
> degenerative diseases for ages."  It is a fact that people live longer
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> of nutrition that nature provides. But how many of us are going to
> grow our own wheat, grind, mill, and bake our own breads?

I agree with this point. The problem with deficiencies is often that
the quality of modern foods is not what it used to be. The problem still
does not come even close to what the lack of exercise in modern
lifestyle does to deteriorate health. Although I don't know about the
original poster's habits, I feel that it would be better for most to
save their money on supplements and focus on moving their bodies more
instead. As far as health goes, we live longer because we have better
health care and an abundance of food where they were poorer in older
days, but our health can hardly be described as stronger. Look at the
rates of diabetes, heart disease and the regression of muscle strength
of the average individual. Again, primitive populations can in several
cases live long lives with almost zero incidence of these problems.

> Your statement sounds like you discourage vitamins as not worth it,
> and that appears reckless.

That is the approach that I take for my own health .

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Aaron Baugher - 04 Feb 2008 16:18 GMT
> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?
> If so, which ones and in what dosage?

Many people take potassium, because it's unusually scarce in low-carb
foods and potassium deficiency can cause cramps, irregular heartbeat,
and other fun stuff.  A great source is Lite Salt.  Just season your
food with it, and you'll probably be all set.  Potassium supplements,
for some reason, contain a maximum of 99mg (3% RDA), so it's harder to
get very much from pills, but try them if you simply don't like salt
flavor.  Some blood pressure and heart medications cause potassium
retention, by the way, so if you're on anything like that, find out
first.

If you think fiber matters, you might want to keep an eye on that.
Low-carbers may actually get more fiber than high-carbers; it just
depends.  It's not hard to get more fiber from berries and vegetables
than from white bread.  Many LC foods, both natural and processed, are
LC precisely *because* they're high in fiber, so large amounts of fiber
are possible without supplements.

Other than that, there's no reason for a low-carb diet to need any more
supplementation than a "normal" diet.  In fact, some of the most
nutrient-dense foods are low-carb: nuts, eggs, dark green vegetables,
spices, meat.  If you didn't think you needed supplements before LC, you
shouldn't think you need them now.

However, I supplement some things (besides Lite Salt) for specific
reasons.  Because my adrenals have been hurting for a long time, I'm
taking a B-complex and additional pantothenic acid.  For my brain, and
because the Drs. Eades spend an entire chapter praising it, I'm taking
enough magnesium to provide at least a 1-1 ratio with the calcium I get
from food.  Because it's winter and it's hard to get much sun, I'm
taking vitamin D.  For general health and repair of damaged tissue, I'm
taking fish oil, plus E every day to help process the omega-3s.

That's my personal list; others' will be different.  None of those are
*because* I'm low-carbing, but they work along with it.  I'd be taking
more things if I didn't have such a hard time swallowing pills.

Signature

Aaron -- 285/253/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Doug Freyburger - 04 Feb 2008 21:08 GMT
> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?

Specific ones?  No.  Even on Atkins Induction there should be
enough variety of veggies to cover mineral and vitamin needs
as well as enough other food to handle all of the macronutrients.

On the other hand I think of supplements as a belt and suspenders
issue that apply to anyone low carber or not.  Modern farming
methods do selectve breeding for yield not nutrition and fertilizers
are for crop yield not final mineral content.  Eating a variety of
veggies should handle it but taking supplements takes care of it
just in case.

> If so, which ones and in what dosage?

Up to you.  I like a general purpose multi that's better than Centrum,
plus the few items that don't fit in the tablet plus stuff specific to
my own medical history or family medical history.

I look for a generic labelled "Compare to Theragram-M", plus extra
C, Cal/Mag and EFA (fish oil) as the stuff that doesn't fit in the
multi.

I also take stuff based on specific family medical history in attempts
to prevent medical issues my relatives have had.  Maybe it will work,
maybe not, but it's worth a try.
Cubit - 05 Feb 2008 20:27 GMT
> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?
> If so, which ones and in what dosage?
>
> thank you,

I had figured I needed lots of supplementation to be safe.  However, in Gary
Taubes' book, the account of the Inuit, and the all meat experiments done on
Stephenson and the other guy, seem to suggest that the standards of RDA and
DV were developed in the context of likely powerful anti-nutrient
characteristics of carbs.
Tom G. - 06 Feb 2008 03:18 GMT
>> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?
>> If so, which ones and in what dosage?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of RDA and DV were developed in the context of likely powerful
> anti-nutrient characteristics of carbs.

  Also the "25 egg per day man" would have been only getting less than 11%
of vitamin K, 5% of niacin, 0% vitamin C, 63% of the needed calcium, and 31%
of required magnesium. Yet, he survived for 15 years on his diet. ( Not sure
how he died. Car accident? Does anyone here know?) Eggs have everything that
is needed to make a whole animal. Not just enough to maintain it's size, but
actually build everything from scratch and grow.
  Raw bison meat, according to Fitday, contains 0 amounts of vitamin A, D,
C, E, B6, B12, thiamin and folate. Many natives, explorers and pioneers
lived off of pemmican for months at a time.
  Maybe most of the vitamins that are needed according to RDA, are needed
only on a high carb diet.
Cubit - 06 Feb 2008 05:25 GMT
>>> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet?
>>> If so, which ones and in what dosage?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>   Maybe most of the vitamins that are needed according to RDA, are needed
> only on a high carb diet.

I tried to Google the egg man.  Apparently, he was 88 years old in 1991.  I
could not find out what ultimately happened to him.
Aaron Baugher - 06 Feb 2008 16:18 GMT
>   Maybe most of the vitamins that are needed according to RDA, are
> needed only on a high carb diet.

That's pretty much my conclusion.

There are changes in the mineral content from what our ancestors got,
though, even if we try to eat the same paleo diet they did.  For the
most part, our water just doesn't have the same mineral content that
theirs did.  Our grain-fed livestock and anhydrous ammonia-fed
vegetables don't have the same nutritional breakdown theirs did.  Even
if all your meat is grass-fed and all your vegetables are organically
grown in compost in your backyard, the breeds and varieties have
changed.

So I have no problem with the notion that I need some supplements, but
probably not the same ones and in the same amounts that we're told.

Signature

Aaron -- 285/253/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

6packer - 08 Feb 2008 06:31 GMT
ABS everybody wants them.  Then why don't people do something about
it? i made a blog that i really hope will help and motivate you to
achieve this goal www.superrippedabs.blogspot.com  The key to getting
abs is through Patience and Persistence. If you put your mind to it
you can achieve anything (i know its cliche, but it's very true!)
 
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