Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / February 2008
Do I need special Vitamins on this diet/woe/wol ???
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Cheese Wheels - 04 Feb 2008 14:21 GMT Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? If so, which ones and in what dosage?
thank you,
trader4@optonline.net - 04 Feb 2008 14:38 GMT > Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? > If so, which ones and in what dosage? > > thank you, Atkins recommended taking a multi-vitamin, at least during induction. During induction, your diet is more limited, with vegeteables restricted, etc. As you move on to more carbs and more food choices, the vitamin is no more necessary or beneficial than on any other diet.
H.L - 04 Feb 2008 15:34 GMT > Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? > If so, which ones and in what dosage? > > thank you, This is a matter of debate in several alternative diet plans. In my mind, the answer is no. Humans survived with far less degenerative diseases for ages without eating any pills. The low carbohydrate diet plan is a way to eat more of what we have evolved to eat. Even Atkins himself points this out quite clearly in his books.
It is far more important to get enough water and exercise. A proper diet is not in itself a ticket to thriving health. It needs to be properly joined with a reasonably healthy way of life.
The modern craze for supplements is driven in large by effective marketing. The vitamine industry made a lot of money convincing people that they need to take a lot of this and that. I find it wrong by the Atkins center to sell any supplements at all.
DigitalVinyl - 20 Feb 2008 15:43 GMT >> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? >> If so, which ones and in what dosage? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >plan is a way to eat more of what we have evolved to eat. Even Atkins >himself points this out quite clearly in his books. Actually Atkins, in his book, EXPRESSLY recommends specific supplements. For instance, Low Carbing often produces severe muscle cramps. He mentions the 2 or 3 nutrients that in short supply cause this. I experienced them and taking the supplement fixed the problem. I believe is is caused by the lack of bread in a typical low-carber diet.
Most people don't realize that since the 1930s virtually every industrialized nation uses bread as a vitamin and nutritional supplement (called enrichment or enriched breads in the U.S.) in the population. When white flour became mass-produced and enabled the mass product of white breads after the turn of the century, it caused several diseases through the population, both here and all other industrialized nations. It would take 30 years to understand what, they first thought were infectious diseases, were actually deficiencies in the diet. The over-processed white flour lacked most of the nutrition of real flour--because the nutrious parts were largely perishable and had to be removed to enable longer shelf life. So to say nutrient supplements aren't valueable is ridiculous, since virtually none of us can return to a life where we live close to the land and survive solely upon what we and our neighbors grow and eat no mass produced food. And there is no evidence that the land, in each limited range of ecosystems provides the diversity to long and healthy lives. The earth runs in a yearly cycle. Mankind has chosen a weekly cycle to live life by. We can't conserve energy and sleep more in winter, we have jobs.
If you look at nature, the animal kingdom largely survives on numbers. Animals breed heavily to ensure the survivial of the entire species, not the survival on the individual. If the natural method of life is what you are seeking than that includes a high mortality rate and an equally high procreative stance. So the human race needs to survive, it doesn't matter if the individual dies.
ALso there is no evidence that "Humans survived with far less degenerative diseases for ages." It is a fact that people live longer now, we has census records dating back 200 years in this country telling us how long people survived. It is a fact that women and infants survive childbirth more now than back in the "good ole days" when everyone lived without medical knowledge. Medical records based upon ignorance (that frogs jumped in our throats at night" or "demons possessed us") doesn't qualify as proof of much more than the ignorance of that time. So I'm really not convinced of what EXACTLY is wrong with our modern diet. I think, as I mention above, there is evidence that processed foods are poorer quality and lack a complexity of nutrition that nature provides. But how many of us are going to grow our own wheat, grind, mill, and bake our own breads?
Your statement sounds like you discourage vitamins as not worth it, and that appears reckless.
> It is far more important to get enough water and exercise. A proper >diet is not in itself a ticket to thriving health. It needs to be >properly joined with a reasonably healthy way of life. Too much water can literally kill you, and will stress the body. There is no medical basis whatsoever to the assertion that people need to drink 8 glasses of water a day--an often repeated recommendation. It appears to have been made up in gym-cultures and propigated as an urban myth about what constitutes health. SO whether 2 glasses of water or 14 glasses of water is right is completely unknown. Telling people to drink water is more empty than you see the push for vitamins.
>The modern craze for supplements is driven in large by effective >marketing. The vitamine industry made a lot of money convincing people >that they need to take a lot of this and that. I find it wrong by the >Atkins center to sell any supplements at all. I agree that, like pharmeceuticals, vitamins and supplements should be restircted and controlled in advertising and claims. On the other side, the govenrment and doctors are dragging their feet on pushing for understanding and advancement of nutrition. Pharmeceutical companies will never go there because there is no patent worth owning. It is one of, if not the most important area of public health and one where not enough progress is being made cause it simply isn't as marketable as telling everyone that they must reduce their cholesterol number below X and the only way to do it is by taking our #1 profit making pill for the rest of your life.
DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email) 350/288/225 month-start: 292 monthly-goal: 8 since: 12/01/2004 Low Carb started Jan 12, 2004.
Hakan Lane - 23 Feb 2008 20:33 GMT >>> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? >>> If so, which ones and in what dosage? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> plan is a way to eat more of what we have evolved to eat. Even Atkins >> himself points this out quite clearly in his books.
> Actually Atkins, in his book, EXPRESSLY recommends specific > supplements. For instance, Low Carbing often produces severe muscle > cramps. He mentions the 2 or 3 nutrients that in short supply cause > this. I experienced them and taking the supplement fixed the problem. > I believe is is caused by the lack of bread in a typical low-carber > diet. I don't agree with those recommendations. If you found that out, that is good for you. My muscle cramps can not be described as severe.
> Most people don't realize that since the 1930s virtually every > industrialized nation uses bread as a vitamin and nutritional [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > largely perishable and had to be removed to enable longer shelf life. > So to say nutrient supplements aren't valueable is ridiculous, Did you read about Weston Price's travels among native people? Vilhjalmur Stefansson's discoveries of no heart disease among Eskimos? Lutz paleolithic no bread diets? It is usually discovered that the health of many native populations rapidly decline after switching to a Western high carbohydrate, high sugar diet. Man evolved without nutritional supplements.
> ALso there is no evidence that "Humans survived with far less > degenerative diseases for ages." It is a fact that people live longer [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of nutrition that nature provides. But how many of us are going to > grow our own wheat, grind, mill, and bake our own breads? I agree with this point. The problem with deficiencies is often that the quality of modern foods is not what it used to be. The problem still does not come even close to what the lack of exercise in modern lifestyle does to deteriorate health. Although I don't know about the original poster's habits, I feel that it would be better for most to save their money on supplements and focus on moving their bodies more instead. As far as health goes, we live longer because we have better health care and an abundance of food where they were poorer in older days, but our health can hardly be described as stronger. Look at the rates of diabetes, heart disease and the regression of muscle strength of the average individual. Again, primitive populations can in several cases live long lives with almost zero incidence of these problems.
> Your statement sounds like you discourage vitamins as not worth it, > and that appears reckless. That is the approach that I take for my own health .
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Aaron Baugher - 04 Feb 2008 16:18 GMT > Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? > If so, which ones and in what dosage? Many people take potassium, because it's unusually scarce in low-carb foods and potassium deficiency can cause cramps, irregular heartbeat, and other fun stuff. A great source is Lite Salt. Just season your food with it, and you'll probably be all set. Potassium supplements, for some reason, contain a maximum of 99mg (3% RDA), so it's harder to get very much from pills, but try them if you simply don't like salt flavor. Some blood pressure and heart medications cause potassium retention, by the way, so if you're on anything like that, find out first.
If you think fiber matters, you might want to keep an eye on that. Low-carbers may actually get more fiber than high-carbers; it just depends. It's not hard to get more fiber from berries and vegetables than from white bread. Many LC foods, both natural and processed, are LC precisely *because* they're high in fiber, so large amounts of fiber are possible without supplements.
Other than that, there's no reason for a low-carb diet to need any more supplementation than a "normal" diet. In fact, some of the most nutrient-dense foods are low-carb: nuts, eggs, dark green vegetables, spices, meat. If you didn't think you needed supplements before LC, you shouldn't think you need them now.
However, I supplement some things (besides Lite Salt) for specific reasons. Because my adrenals have been hurting for a long time, I'm taking a B-complex and additional pantothenic acid. For my brain, and because the Drs. Eades spend an entire chapter praising it, I'm taking enough magnesium to provide at least a 1-1 ratio with the calcium I get from food. Because it's winter and it's hard to get much sun, I'm taking vitamin D. For general health and repair of damaged tissue, I'm taking fish oil, plus E every day to help process the omega-3s.
That's my personal list; others' will be different. None of those are *because* I'm low-carbing, but they work along with it. I'd be taking more things if I didn't have such a hard time swallowing pills.
 Signature Aaron -- 285/253/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz
Doug Freyburger - 04 Feb 2008 21:08 GMT > Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? Specific ones? No. Even on Atkins Induction there should be enough variety of veggies to cover mineral and vitamin needs as well as enough other food to handle all of the macronutrients.
On the other hand I think of supplements as a belt and suspenders issue that apply to anyone low carber or not. Modern farming methods do selectve breeding for yield not nutrition and fertilizers are for crop yield not final mineral content. Eating a variety of veggies should handle it but taking supplements takes care of it just in case.
> If so, which ones and in what dosage? Up to you. I like a general purpose multi that's better than Centrum, plus the few items that don't fit in the tablet plus stuff specific to my own medical history or family medical history.
I look for a generic labelled "Compare to Theragram-M", plus extra C, Cal/Mag and EFA (fish oil) as the stuff that doesn't fit in the multi.
I also take stuff based on specific family medical history in attempts to prevent medical issues my relatives have had. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but it's worth a try.
Cubit - 05 Feb 2008 20:27 GMT > Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? > If so, which ones and in what dosage? > > thank you, I had figured I needed lots of supplementation to be safe. However, in Gary Taubes' book, the account of the Inuit, and the all meat experiments done on Stephenson and the other guy, seem to suggest that the standards of RDA and DV were developed in the context of likely powerful anti-nutrient characteristics of carbs.
Tom G. - 06 Feb 2008 03:18 GMT >> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? >> If so, which ones and in what dosage? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of RDA and DV were developed in the context of likely powerful > anti-nutrient characteristics of carbs. Also the "25 egg per day man" would have been only getting less than 11% of vitamin K, 5% of niacin, 0% vitamin C, 63% of the needed calcium, and 31% of required magnesium. Yet, he survived for 15 years on his diet. ( Not sure how he died. Car accident? Does anyone here know?) Eggs have everything that is needed to make a whole animal. Not just enough to maintain it's size, but actually build everything from scratch and grow. Raw bison meat, according to Fitday, contains 0 amounts of vitamin A, D, C, E, B6, B12, thiamin and folate. Many natives, explorers and pioneers lived off of pemmican for months at a time. Maybe most of the vitamins that are needed according to RDA, are needed only on a high carb diet.
Cubit - 06 Feb 2008 05:25 GMT >>> Should I be taking certain supplements or vitamins on this diet? >>> If so, which ones and in what dosage? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Maybe most of the vitamins that are needed according to RDA, are needed > only on a high carb diet. I tried to Google the egg man. Apparently, he was 88 years old in 1991. I could not find out what ultimately happened to him.
Aaron Baugher - 06 Feb 2008 16:18 GMT > Maybe most of the vitamins that are needed according to RDA, are > needed only on a high carb diet. That's pretty much my conclusion.
There are changes in the mineral content from what our ancestors got, though, even if we try to eat the same paleo diet they did. For the most part, our water just doesn't have the same mineral content that theirs did. Our grain-fed livestock and anhydrous ammonia-fed vegetables don't have the same nutritional breakdown theirs did. Even if all your meat is grass-fed and all your vegetables are organically grown in compost in your backyard, the breeds and varieties have changed.
So I have no problem with the notion that I need some supplements, but probably not the same ones and in the same amounts that we're told.
 Signature Aaron -- 285/253/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz
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