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help! having trouble meeting daily calorie intake

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support@[remove_this_before.replying] - 15 Feb 2008 20:05 GMT
hi there,

i was told by my doc that my blood sugar is high, i have had
cholestrol problems for years now, and i was just given meds for high
BP.  my health totally sucks :(  so i went to a nutritionist in early
january, and am now on a high protein low-carb (almost no-carbs and no
refined sugars) diet with lots of fresh greens and veggies. to date, i
have lost 23 lbs :)) with another 90 or so to go, if you go by the
tables.

my dilemma is i cannot seem to get my calorie intake where it should
be. ive read based calories on 10-12x your current weight and subtract
from there. i weight 245 right now, down from 268, so my low-end would
be 2,450 for maintenance. have to say, i have trouble even getting up
to the 2,000 mark without all my lovely carbs and such. some days i
average less than 1,000, am not really hungry, and i am worried a bit.

doc said to eat 'as much protein' as i like. but man, ive read that
isnt really a good thing either...my diet consists of mostly fish and
some chicken, and veggies have negligible calories.

what to do so i don't stall or plateau? protein drinks or caloric
supplementation?

thanks...md
FOB - 15 Feb 2008 20:18 GMT
Don't worry until you do plateau.  You don't mention any fats, you can add
some to up you calories, put some olive oil dressing on your salads, eat
some meats with higher fat content, put butter on your veggies.  Most people
would be very happy staying below 2,000.  1,000 is fine as long as it's not
every day.

| hi there,
|
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
|
| thanks...md
UsenetID - 15 Feb 2008 20:19 GMT
> hi there,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> thanks...md

Congratulations on having a nutritionist that's up to date!

Eat fat.  Put butter on your veggies, mayo on your meat, etc.  If your diet
includes "almost no-carbs" you have to be getting your energy from
somewhere - fat is a great source and, if you're anything like me (which
you're probably not :).) you will lose weight faster and easier eating more
fats in conjunction with low carb.

Signature

Sherry
lowcarb.owly.net

support@org.org - 16 Feb 2008 00:42 GMT
>Congratulations on having a nutritionist that's up to date!
>
>Eat fat.

odd to hear that from the ones who have responded so far, that seems
contrary to the plan. but reading further it does appear to be true.
my nutrition doc recommended only using an oil from australia called
MacNut. it is macadamia nut oil, and the nutritionals are great for a
fat. he said olive oil is fine too, but at lower temperatures. was
shocked to hear him say to fry lots of things and eat lots of the oil.
i have more reading to do i see.

thanks.
Doug Freyburger - 16 Feb 2008 13:42 GMT
supp...@org.org wrote:

> >Eat fat.
>
> odd to hear that from the ones who have responded so far, that seems
> contrary to the plan. but reading further it does appear to be true.

It certainly runs the opposite of what most people find obvious.  But
obvious does NTO equal true.  Consider Aaron Baugher's post about
people a century ago losing fast by eating untrimmed steaks with
butter but cutting out root starchy and sweet stuff.  Calories and fat
content are nowhere near as simple as the folks who try to avoid fat.
Keeping the carb low enough it's an entirely different ball game.

> my nutrition doc recommended only using an oil from australia called
> MacNut. it is macadamia nut oil, and the nutritionals are great for a
> fat.

I've tried it.  Nice but unnecessarily expensive IMO.

> he said olive oil is fine too, but at lower temperatures.

I have no idea why temperature matters to him.

> was
> shocked to hear him say to fry lots of things and eat lots of the oil.
> i have more reading to do i see.

Yup.  How fat works runs contrary to what most people believe so
it takes a lot of reading (very specifically with your preconceived
notioins turned off, extremely difficult) and experimentation.
Hollywood - 16 Feb 2008 17:52 GMT
> supp...@org.org wrote:
> > he said olive oil is fine too, but at lower temperatures.
>
> I have no idea why temperature matters to him.

Probably something to do with smoke points.
Mac Nut will smoke at nearly 400*. Very heat stable.
Olive Oil, around that number, depending on press
and refinement. Unrefined, lower, EVOO 400+.

Maybe oxidization?

I dunno.

Maybe lipid profile.

The more I consider, the murkier this recommendation
becomes. I would ask the nutritionist for a little more
background on the oil suggestions.
support@org.org - 17 Feb 2008 07:17 GMT
>> supp...@org.org wrote:
>> > he said olive oil is fine too, but at lower temperatures.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>becomes. I would ask the nutritionist for a little more
>background on the oil suggestions.

sorry. i should have elaborated on that. it was due to the breakpoints
of the oils at high heat levels. doc felt that EVOO needs a more
delicate temp when cooking, but macnut can stand the heat.
Doug Freyburger - 15 Feb 2008 21:12 GMT
> i was told by my doc that my blood sugar is high, i have had
> cholestrol problems for years now, and i was just given meds for high
> BP.  my health totally sucks :(  so i went to a nutritionist in early
> january, and am now on a high protein low-carb (almost no-carbs and no
> refined sugars) diet with lots of fresh greens and veggies.

A bit on wording - If you're eating plenty of veggies you are by no
means eating "almost no carbs".

> to date, i have lost 23 lbs :))

In under two months that's extremely fast loss.

> with another 90 or so to go, if you go by the tables.

The tables run 10 pounds too low in most cases, so call it 80 to go.

> my dilemma is i cannot seem to get my calorie intake where it should
> be. ive read based calories on 10-12x your current weight and subtract
> from there. i weight 245 right now, down from 268, so my low-end would
> be 2,450 for maintenance.

That doesn't take goal weight into account so it's a high number.
There's some sense in taking 10 times your goal, 10 times your
current, and averaging them for this month's calorie guideline.
It's simple to do and methods that are a lot more work only give
slightly better estimates.

(current 245 x 10 = 2450) + (goal 165 x 10 = 1650) / 2 = 2050 for
this month by this extremely simple minded guideline.

> have to say, i have trouble even getting up
> to the 2,000 mark without all my lovely carbs and such. some days i
> average less than 1,000, am not really hungry, and i am worried a bit.

As long as you're losing okay and you aren't hungry, is it so big a
deal that your calories are low?  This isn't exactly an emergency
on your part.  ;^)  If you have a lot of days under 1000 that's a lot
different from some days near 2000 and some days near 1000.

Since I think you should be targeting nearer to 2050 calories, your
current intake doesn't seem to be a problem in my view.

> doc said to eat 'as much protein' as i like. but man, ive read that
> isnt really a good thing either...my diet consists of mostly fish and
> some chicken, and veggies have negligible calories.
>
> what to do so i don't stall or plateau? protein drinks or caloric
> supplementation?

There's no specific need to change at all now.  As long as you aren't
hungry and you don't think it's going to generate a backlash later,
you're doing fine.

Calorie for calorie, more fat and less protein does give better loss.
But just plain adding fat without changing protein or carbs for more
calories, maybe that works maybe not.  Calories count for loss, more
fat means hunger takes longer to come back.  You could switch to
less lean meats and end up not seeing much change in your total
calories because it takes longer to get hungry so you don't eat as
often.

Feel free to have red meat if you want.  While low carbing fat isn't
a problem.  But really, you're doing fine as it is.  Take some deep
breaths and relax - all is well.
support@org.org - 16 Feb 2008 01:29 GMT
>A bit on wording - If you're eating plenty of veggies you are by no
>means eating "almost no carbs".

hi Doug,

was thinking you would respond. your info was most appreciated, and
helps move me up to another level for what i am trying to accomplish.

ok, i am concerned now about carbs in my vegetables. in terms of a low
carb diet, which vegetables are taboo?

here's what i am eating, advice appreciated from you and anyone else:

doc said no carrots or corn or potatoes or rices. if it is sweet or
mashy in the mouth, can't have it. all refined sugars out the door
(but i've noticed how so many foods hide sugar in their recipes with
all sorts of names. more discouraging than i had imagined.)

so i stick to asst leaf lettuces, spinach, broccoli, radish, asst.
peppers, mushrooms, cucumber, green squash, olives, chives, asst
sprouts, bok choy, cabbages, kale, green beans, asparagus, celery, and
the occasional tomato. i may have missed a couple. i try to buy
organic when what i need is available. i've added nuts to my diet.

doc ok'd me to eat fruit, except bananas, but feel this should be down
the road more.

he recommended flax oil with cider vinegar as a dressing, but ive
always preferred my salads dry. i love tofu and i realize that does
have carbs. as i mentioned in another post, for fats i use macadamia
nut oil and olive oil for cooking.

he said any amount of protein as desired, i eat alot of fish and
chicken, some pork and red meat, tofu, and eggs. very limited dairy
products, which i am missing.

i drink water, but need to step it up. i read 64oz a day PLUS 8oz for
every 25 pounds overweight. 90oz, now that is a lot of water :o

as for the weight loss, i quit smoking cigarettes almost 2 years ago,
i gained roughly 25lbs so think that's what is coming off right now.
my primary physician said i should expect dramatic loss at first, then
it gets more difficult. right now, i'm living a dream.

thanks.,,
FOB - 16 Feb 2008 02:53 GMT
Tofu's not bad, more protein than carbs.  Your veggies are good.  Didn't see
cauliflower on the list, it's good and versatile, good with some cheese on
top which adds a little oil.  Cheese is good stuff both plain and in things.
Asparagus is good, too.

Don't worry about drinking that much water, just make sure you are well
hydrated.

| hi Doug,
|
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
|
| thanks.,,
Marengo - 16 Feb 2008 08:18 GMT
>Tofu's not bad, more protein than carbs.  Your veggies are good.  Didn't see
>cauliflower on the list, it's good and versatile, good with some cheese on
>top which adds a little oil.

Yes!  Cauliflower is one of my staples.  In my local grocery store
I've found Hunt's "No Sugar Added Italian Style Sauce;" it comes in a
26 oz can and only has 6g carbs and 35 calories per 1/2 cup.  I put it
on a pile of steamed cauliflower with Romano cheese and it's a great,
tasty nutritious low carb pasta substitute.  There's so much that can
be done with cauliflower.
---
Peter
270/227/180
Marengo - 16 Feb 2008 08:12 GMT
> for fats i use macadamia
>nut oil and olive oil for cooking.

If your doctor wants  you to eat "healthy" fats, I would highly
recommend "Smart Balance Buttery Spread!"  It has zero carbs per
tablespoon, tastes like butter, is non-hydrogenated, has no transfats,
and was formulated to have the ideal ratio of OMega-6 to Omega-3 fatty
acids.  Smart Balance has about equal proportions of saturated fat,
poly- an dmon-unsaturated fats.  I use it a lot, and feel that it's
played a big part in getting my cholesterol and triglycerides under
control while still getting all the fats I need and the buttery taste
that's so good.  Maybe you could ask your nutritionist about it.
---
Peter
270/227/180
Doug Freyburger - 16 Feb 2008 14:03 GMT
supp...@org.org wrote:

> ok, i am concerned now about carbs in my vegetables. in terms of a low
> carb diet, which vegetables are taboo?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> doc ok'd me to eat fruit, except bananas, but feel this should be down
> the road more.

Whether you're on Atkins or not, they are a good source for info.

Here's what that plan suggests to eat in the first two weeks:

http://www.atkins.com/articles/atkins-phases/phase-one/acceptable-foods/

Atkins uses the "carb ladder" to show what foods are at what carb
density.  Stuff like meat being near zero, bread being extremely high.
It's a good learning tool for what to consider next if it is time to
increase your carb grams:

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/atkinsdiet/qt/carbladder.htm

This page includes the "Power of Five" list.  It gives a view of the
portion
sizes of stuff to give five grams of carb.  Wanna trade a portion of
brocolli
half the size of your head for the equivalent in apples?  This could
show
you how to estimate how to do that:

http://www.atkins.com/articles/atkins-phases/phase-two/how-to-follow-phase-two-p
art-2/


This page includes the "Power of Ten" list.  It gives a view of the
portion
sizes of stuff to give ten grams of carb.  Same principle with denser
veggies:

http://www.atkins.com/articles/atkins-phases/phase-three/how-to-do-pre-maintenan
ce-part-1/


What veggies to eat depend on individual tuning on Atkins so if you
aren't on his plan the details aren't all that important.  But his
tables
are useful to anyone interested in counting carbs.

> he said any amount of protein as desired, i eat alot of fish and
> chicken, some pork and red meat, tofu, and eggs. very limited dairy
> products, which i am missing.

Reasons for limiting dairy - It has carbs and it's easy to ignore
those
carbs.  It has very high calories per serving size and calories do
count
even though they count less than on other plan types.  There's a
temptation to have the skimmed products that are low fat and high
carb.  Some folks have unknown mild dairy intolerance.

> my primary physician said i should expect dramatic loss at first, then
> it gets more difficult. right now, i'm living a dream.

The first two weeks does include water loss.  The body stores carbs
as glycogen and that glycogen is dissolved in water.  Burn off the
stored carb, drop the water it was dissolved in.  Then once gone
the loss is fat.  It means the loss rate in the first two weeks has
no relationship at all to later rates and is to be ignoed.  Loss in
weeks 4 on does give a good view of how the rest of the plan will go.
support@org.org - 17 Feb 2008 08:27 GMT
>Whether you're on Atkins or not, they are a good source for info.
>
>Here's what that plan suggests to eat in the first two weeks:

<snipped>

excellent advice, and looks like i have some reading to do

to all the cauliflower lovers, my better half and i were just debating
that tonight at Whole Foods (a great store if you have one nearby). i
will have to pick up a head, the idea with red sauce sounds good.

i have also been looking at the healthier spreads like benecol and
smart balance, ive never been much of a butter or spread user. but
figure i can do the daily dose off the spoon or in a cooked dish.

thanks everybody.
Hollywood - 17 Feb 2008 15:39 GMT
On Feb 17, 2:27 am, supp...@org.org wrote:

> i have also been looking at the healthier spreads like benecol and
> smart balance, ive never been much of a butter or spread user. but
> figure i can do the daily dose off the spoon or in a cooked dish.

Not necessarily a good idea.

The idea isn't to go low fat (benecol). It's to reduce carbs. Fats
aren't
particularly relevant, but if you stick with EVOO and MacNut,
you should be fine.
Marengo - 16 Feb 2008 08:00 GMT
>hi there,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>thanks...md

October 25th I weighted 270.  Today, Feb. 16, I weigh 227.  I've been
losing an average of 2.5  pounds per week by limiting my calories to
under 1500.  43 pounds lost so far with no stalls yet in just under 4
months.

I'm controlling my carbs, but not as drastically as I did a few years
ago when I tried to stick to <20 per day. I'm doing my own hybrid plan
based on my own experience; but t's probably more like South Beach
than anything else.   I'm keeping my carbs around 100 to 125g daily
(still considered low carb by USDA standards), and that includes maybe
25 - 50g of fiber each day.  I limit my carbs to low-glycemic
vegetables, fruits and high-fiber whole grains;  absolutely no simple
starches or sugars of any kind, and no fast foods or frankenfoods
whatsoever.  Everything I eat I prepare from fresh.  I'm eating tons
of poultry and fish.    I also add no salt to food, and keep saturated
fats to <15g per day as recommended by my cardiologist (that's just me
for health reasons, YMMV).  I'm eating plenty of "healthy" fats with
Omega 3 fatty acids.  

I'm also getting plenty of exercise; I've begun a new physical therapy
program for an old problem that I've had.

This is only what I'm doing and don't expect anyone else to do the
same thing; nor am I preaching.   I've come to the conclusion that we
each have to find what works best for us. Our bodies all work
basically the same way, but we are each unique individuals and respond
differently.   I'm only saying all this because I don't believe that
you have to try to keep  your caloric intake high to lose weight; that
doesn't even make sense to me.  It's simple physics and
thermodynamics.  
Mty advice is don't listen to all the different things that people
will dogmatically tell you you have to do.  Find out what works for
you!.  Experiment.  If you're concerned about calorie intake, try
eating 1000, 1500, 2000, or 2500 calories and see what's best for you
and  your health.  Try different proportions of carbs, fats and
protein while keeping your carbs reasonably low.   Your body will tell
you when it's right, both in weight loss and in how you feel.

All I know is that what I'm doing is working for me.  Besides the
weight loss, I'm planning my meals to be nutritionally balanced on a
daily basis and take only one multivitamin; I track everything  I eat
on Fitday and am getting all of the RDA of nutrients I need  from my
food and that one multivitamin.

Besides the weight loss, I just had new blood tests done last week and
the results were so spectacular I nearly cried.  My total cholesterol
had dropped from 235 four months ago to 117, and my LDL to HDL ratio
dropped from 3.6 to 1.5 .  My triglycerides dropped from 359  to 117
also.  (Three years ago my triglycerides were so high they couldn't be
measured; they were recorded at 650+).  And although I was diagnosed
about 4 years ago as Type II diabetic with an HbA1c of 9.0, I am still
taking no medication and controlling it completely nutritionally.  My
HbA1c last week was 5.1 (normal)  and my fasting blood glucose was 90.

Having had two angioplasties with three stent insertions last October
after a heart catheterization found two coronary arteries almost
completely  blocked, I have all the motivation in the world that I
need to continue what I'm doing for the rest of my life!  I'm enjoying
my food, enjoying planning and preparing my meals, and am even
enjoying tracking what I eat.  I have a renewed positive outlook on
life and more energy than I've had in years.  

I wish you all the best, md, and hope that you find that balance that
works for you as I have.
---
Peter
270/227/180
trader4@optonline.net - 16 Feb 2008 11:36 GMT
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:05:37 GMT,
>
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

He claims he's eating almost no carbs.   But at the same time, says
he's eating lots of vegetables.   So, it's clear he's getting more
carbs than he thinks.   I'd bet the same thing is happening with the
calories.   He may think he's only getting 1000, but I'd bet if he
carefully measures and records, he'd find that he's getting more.
That mac nut oil, for example, is loaded with calories and it's very
easy to use some here and there and not even think about it.

Not that any of this is bad.   It's working and as others have said,
I'd just stop worrying.    He can certainly add some dairy products
though, since he misses them.   Hard cheese and Hood LC Milk are two
examples.
Marengo - 16 Feb 2008 19:12 GMT
>> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:05:37 GMT,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 101 lines]
>That mac nut oil, for example, is loaded with calories and it's very
>easy to use some here and there and not even think about it.

Yep, you're probably right.  

>Not that any of this is bad.   It's working and as others have said,
>I'd just stop worrying.    He can certainly add some dairy products
>though, since he misses them.   Hard cheese and Hood LC Milk are two
>examples.

I agree.
---
Peter
270/227/180
support@org.org - 17 Feb 2008 07:39 GMT
>So, it's clear he's getting more
>carbs than he thinks.   I'd bet the same thing is happening with the
>calories.

yes, now that i read more i am sure this is correct. i'm going to just
continue on the path i am on for now. i lost another 2 lbs since my
last step on the scale. so i must be doing something right :)
jcderkoeing - 16 Feb 2008 13:44 GMT
>>hi there,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> October 25th I weighted 270.

Is English your second language, or are you just an idiot?
Cheri - 16 Feb 2008 18:14 GMT
Marengo wrote in message
<4l3dr3hb07gh4lga7dn63ivj9bs0lpuvjv@4ax.com>...

>October 25th I weighted 270.  Today, Feb. 16, I weigh 227.  I've been
>losing an average of 2.5  pounds per week by limiting my calories to
>under 1500.  43 pounds lost so far with no stalls yet in just under 4
>months.

Good for you Peter!!!! I think that is just terrific. :-)

Cheri
support@org.org - 17 Feb 2008 07:35 GMT
>Mty advice is don't listen to all the different things that people
>will dogmatically tell you you have to do.  Find out what works for
>you!.

wow, i was near in tears on your story. first let me say bravo for you
accomplishments so far. you and are on the same path, almost identical
starting weight, but me several months and more than several pounds
behind. i have not stepped up exercise yet, so thats coming up next.
your description of your latest blood work is what got me. it is a
success story that i want to be telling within the year. as the parent
of 3, youngest just turned eight on wednesday, i need to stick around
for a while.
Aaron Baugher - 16 Feb 2008 11:58 GMT
> i was told by my doc that my blood sugar is high, i have had
> cholestrol problems for years now, and i was just given meds for high
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> have lost 23 lbs :)) with another 90 or so to go, if you go by the
> tables.

Sounds like you're doing great; I wouldn't worry about calories as long
as you're losing weight and feeling good without hunger.  If you get
hungry or feel like you need more energy, add fat and protein,
especially fat.  Put butter or olive oil on your vegetables, plenty of
mayo (zero trans-fat kinds only) on burgers, bacon on salads, things
like that.  I've got a BBQ cookbook from 1965 that recommends putting a
pat of butter on top of a steak when it's finished--man, that's good!
(And the steaks in the pictures have fat like you wouldn't believe.)

One thing that struck me reading "Good Calories, Bad Calories" is how
many times he cites an experiment that went something like this:

 Dr. Smith had his patients eliminate sugars and starches and restrict
 their vegetable intake, while eating as much meat as they liked.  They
 lost an average of two pounds a week.

That has happened over and over throughout the last century, sometimes
in situations where a researcher was working with a handful of people,
and sometimes with a clinician who was treating hundreds.  Sometimes
they averaged a little less, say 1.5 pounds a week, and sometimes more,
but "two pounds a week" keeps jumping out of the book like a mantra.
And most of this was before people had carb counters or thought about
things like fiber or hidden carbs.  They simply cut out the obvious
things--bread, sweets, potatoes, flour--and routinely lost weight at a
very fast rate.

Why don't most low-carbers seem to lose weight that fast today?  I
suspect it's because we're dealing with a lot more insulin resistance
and near-diabetes, so our bodies are more resistant to making that
switch.  But the lesson, to me, is that you probably don't have to get
carried away with the details to lose weight.  For most people, just
cutting out sugars and starches will do the trick.  

If that doesn't do it, then it's time to read the books and count carbs
and things like that, but there's nothing wrong with someone starting
with the simplest plan.  That's how I lost weight the first time, years
before I'd ever heard of low-carb.  A chiropractor told me I had a lot
of food allergies, and needed to cut out wheat, potatoes, sugar, and a
few other things.  I started losing weight quickly, and had so much
extra energy I started riding my bike every day.  I don't respond that
easily now, because I went back to abusing my body with carbs after a
while and proceeded further down the diabetic brick road, but that only
means it'll take more work this time.

Signature

Aaron -- 285/253/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Marengo - 16 Feb 2008 19:23 GMT
<snip>

>  Dr. Smith had his patients eliminate sugars and starches and restrict
>  their vegetable intake, while eating as much meat as they liked.  They
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Why don't most low-carbers seem to lose weight that fast today?
<snip>

I suspect that the frankenfoods have a lot to do with it. Just as for
the past half-century there has been tons of unhealthy garbage
marketed to the obese with "low fat" stamped on the packaging, the
same thing has happened with commercially produced "low-carb" foods. I
was one who fell into that trap and would wonder why I couldn't lose
weight faster even though I was counting carbs meticulously.   I
finally found out that for me it was because I was eating so many
"low-carb"  pre-prackaged, covenient and "fast foods."   When I
started to see dramatic changes was really four months ago when I made
a complete lifestyle changed, stopped going to fast food restaurants
and buying pre-packaged foods altogether,and eating only whole or
fresh foods and taking the time to prepare meals myself from scratch.
Of course, I have to add the ubiquitous YMMV; if others can eat low
carb bars, cookies, candies, fast food burgers, etc., then more power
to them.  For me, I've found that gettng back to the basics was the
key.
---
Peter
270/227/180
support@org.org - 17 Feb 2008 07:47 GMT
>Put butter or olive oil on your vegetables, plenty of
>mayo (zero trans-fat kinds only) on burgers, bacon on salads, things
>like that.  I've got a BBQ cookbook from 1965 that recommends putting a
>pat of butter on top of a steak when it's finished--man, that's good!
>(And the steaks in the pictures have fat like you wouldn't believe.)

this type of thinking still amazes me. clearly, i need to take my own
definition of a healthy lifestyle for life to a higher level of
thinking. good thing i am a protein addict.
trader4@optonline.net - 17 Feb 2008 13:01 GMT
On Feb 17, 2:47 am, supp...@org.org wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 05:58:27 -0600, in alt.support.diet.low-carb Aaron
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> definition of a healthy lifestyle for life to a higher level of
> thinking. good thing i am a protein addict.

It amazes me too.  I think on any reasonable approach to LC, you will
wind up getting plenty of fat without having to look to deliberately
add more by loading up with mayo.   At the end of the day, calories do
matter at some point.   And I'm not sure extra saturated fat is wise
from a health standpoint.   Even Dr. Atkins was an advocate of using
healthy oils in his later years.   Oils like your macadamia nut oil or
olive oil.

There are plenty of studies that suggest a link between high sat fat
consumption with disease and shortened lifespan.   Now the argument is
that in the general population, the people who were studied were
eating a typical diet which was also high in carbs, refined foods,
etc.   That is a valid point, but it also doesn't mean that eating
high amounts of fat is thereby proven safe either.  I think some
moderation in all things is good.

Regarding using mac nut oil, I don't see the need to use mac nut oil
for general cooking because of temp concerns.   Olive oil is widely
used for cooking, sauteing for example.   And it's certainly a hell of
a lot cheaper.   You can look up the smoke points of the various oils
and decide for yourself.  I use mac nut oil sparingly for the delicate
flavor in things like salad dressing.
Marengo - 17 Feb 2008 20:03 GMT
<snip>
> I think on any reasonable approach to LC, you will
>wind up getting plenty of fat without having to look to deliberately
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>high amounts of fat is thereby proven safe either.  I think some
>moderation in all things is good.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  I know the issue of saturated fats
could be debated from here to eternity, but I take a simplistic view
on the issue.  Regardless of whether saturated fats are benign or
dangerous; one fact is undisputable:  they are the most calorie-dense
food that we can eat.  For that reason and that reason alone, it makes
good sense to me to stick to unsaturated fats and avoid butter and
lard.  Because, as you said, at the end of the day calories do matter
at some point.

Yes, my parents also used to add a glop of butter to their steaks and
hamburgers.  My dad died at 59 years old from a stroke after having
two heart attacks in his 40's, and my mom died young from a heart
attack.  They were both well overweight, and all three of their
children (including me) ended up overweight with coronary artery
disease.

While I firmly believe in a controlled carb way of eating as the
healthiest way of weight loss and lifelong plan, I see it as just
plain foolish to purposely pile on unnecessary empty calories to foods
in the form of saturated fats.  
---
Peter
270/227/180
Hollywood - 18 Feb 2008 15:34 GMT
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:01:38 -0800 (PST), "trad...@optonline.net"
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> lard.  Because, as you said, at the end of the day calories do matter
> at some point.

Are saturated fats actually more calorie dense than unsaturated fats?
I thought it was 9 kcal/g, all around, regardless of saturation or
structure.

If counting calories is the point of the exercise, the fats are
neutral
across saturation and format. Obviously, you want to avoid the
trans configured fats, and aim for more EPA/DHA omega-3 MUFA,
but from a calorie perspective, it doesn't matter. Equivalent weights
of butter and olive oil will be calorie neutral:

Butter(100g =717kcal):
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c2029.html
Olive Oil (100g = 884kcal):
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c208D.html

The difference is because butter is 18% water. Olive oil is
pure fat.

IF the grounds for avoiding sat fat is because it's more calorie
dense, your logic is flawed. If you're avoiding it because it
comes in larger servings or something, then that's a valid
calorie issue.

But, the eliminate fat because it's calorie dense logic is
what bought us 40 years of low fat dogma, and I think nearly
everyone here is pretty clear on what that bought. Optimal
health wasn't even on the shopping list.
Marengo - 25 Feb 2008 03:16 GMT
>Are saturated fats actually more calorie dense than unsaturated fats?
>I thought it was 9 kcal/g, all around, regardless of saturation or
>structure.

Yes.  There is a difference between weight and density.

Which would you rater have dropped on your head:  five pounds of
feathers or a five pound rock?  To draw a metaphor, the saturated fats
are the rock.  In other words, it takes less saturated fat to make up
that  9kcal gram, because saturated fats are denser.  An equal size
portion of saturate fat will weigh more than the same size unsaturated
fat.  Yes, it is still 9 calories per gram of each, but a gram of
saturated fat is smaller than a gram of non saturated.

I'm not saying that saturated fats are more unhealthy; I've been doing
low carb for several years and I just don't believe that it's true.
However, I do believe that calories still count, and for me personally
it makes no sense to add unnecessary calories to my foods. YMMV.

---
Peter
270/227/180
Hollywood - 17 Feb 2008 15:45 GMT
> I've got a BBQ cookbook from 1965 that recommends putting a
> pat of butter on top of a steak when it's finished--man, that's good!
> (And the steaks in the pictures have fat like you wouldn't believe.)

> --
> Aaron -- 285/253/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

So much better if you crank it as a compound butter.
Something like this:
http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,,FOOD_9936_28701,00.html
(not a big fan of Rachael Ray, but she had the first one that wasn't
for fish, so she wins this round or "Recipe Search")

Delicious.
Bada - 24 Feb 2008 17:29 GMT
> hi there,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> thanks...md

I wish I had trouble eating 1200 calories, I can eat 10,000 calories a
day, easy.
 
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