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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / April 2008

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carbs going to glycogen in muscles

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John - 19 Apr 2008 15:25 GMT
I have read some info where if you have had very, very low carbs for a
long time and have been on a high fat diet and exercise then you
eventually deplete all the glycogen in your muscles and in your liver.

Also I have read when you eat carbs these carbs are used to restore
the glycogen in your muscles and liver first and then any excess carbs
could be converted to fat.  Okay is this true ? and if so how do you
calculate how many carbs you need to fill up your muscles ?  What is a
good formula to use ... ?  And how long does the process take to fill
up your muscles ?

Thanks !
jcderkoeing - 20 Apr 2008 01:03 GMT
Most people can restore most of their stores of muscle glycogen within a 24
hour period. If one continues to ingest carbs, then the liver glycogen will
start to be restored again also.  It takes about 2 or 3 days of low carb to
deplete the stores of muscle glycogen again, for the most part, if you
haven't also filled your liver glycogen.  One confounding factor is
fructose.  Ingested fructose goes toward filling liver glycogen directly.
This is a gross generalization, and a lot of it depends on  how much you eat
and how much you exercise and what your bodyfat percentage is and a host of
other things.  But it's close enough to provide a general formula.

>I have read some info where if you have had very, very low carbs for a
> long time and have been on a high fat diet and exercise then you
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Thanks !
Doug Freyburger - 21 Apr 2008 19:19 GMT
> I have read some info where if you have had very, very low carbs for a
> long time and have been on a high fat diet and exercise then you
> eventually deplete all the glycogen in your muscles and in your liver.

Using diet most rather than all.  The liver keeps producing
glycogen to keep going all the way to none.  But the amount
left is far lower than a carb eater has in storage.  Using
exercise it's possible to bonk.  That's when the muscles
run out of glycogen.  But they start immediately building up
small stores again.  You don't normally want to drive yourself
to bonk as for loss that doesn't help.

> Also I have read when you eat carbs these carbs are used to restore
> the glycogen in your muscles and liver first

Viewing liver and muscles as separate tanks that get
filled at different priorities and different rates.

> and then any excess carbs
> could be converted to fat.  Okay is this true ?

This is true as long as you're taking in enough calories for
it to be true.  While low carbing calories matter less, while
low fatting calories matter more.  Calories matter in both
cases but "a calorie is a calorie is a calorie" does not
apply.  So go low enough in calories and high enough in
carbs and you end up on a low fat plan losing.

By the way, one way to estimate an Atkins CCLM or
maintenance quota is to gradually carb up until the water
retention swing shifts up.  That shows the muscle and/or
liver tank has filled.  It also turns carb cravings back on.
And it takes effort to deplete the stored glycogen as well.

> and if so how do you
> calculate how many carbs you need to fill up your muscles ?  What is a
> good formula to use ... ?

On Atkins - See how much you lost in Induction.  Make
the exaggerated assumption that it's all glycogen and
water.  Carbs are 4 calories to the gram and glycogen
is stored using 3-4 times the mass of water as glycogen.
So call it a calorie per gram of lost water.  If your Induction
loss was 8 pounds, that's about 3600 calories or 900
grams of carb.  This will definitely be a high estimate -
Some of the loss will have been fat, some might have
been water retention bloat caused by an undetected
food intolerance (lose 20 during Induction and some is
definitely bloat).  So half it and call it somewhere near 400
grams of carb.

> And how long does the process take to fill
> up your muscles ?

Based on the wild estimate above it will be in the range
of 1-2 days of reversing from low-carb/high-fat to
high-carb/low-fat.  Guess what, this is the length of time
folks who do cycles like CKD do it.  Funny how that works
out, folks doing the arithmatic and so on.

Here's why I think you don't want to do this often or maybe
even at all: If you had carb cravings when you started low
carbing, doing a recharge like that will turn them back on
full strength.  Then you'll spend a few days low carbing
struggling with cravings.  Each cycle like that errodes the
motivation.
jcderkoeing - 22 Apr 2008 01:32 GMT
John <qjohnny2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Based on the wild estimate above it will be in the range
>of 1-2 days of reversing from low-carb/high-fat to
>high-carb/low-fat.  Guess what, this is the length of time
>folks who do cycles like CKD do it.  Funny how that works
>out, folks doing the arithmatic and so on.

That would be arithmetic?

>Here's why I think you don't want to do this often or maybe
>even at all: If you had carb cravings when you started low
>carbing, doing a recharge like that will turn them back on
>full strength.  Then you'll spend a few days low carbing
>struggling with cravings.  Each cycle like that errodes the
>motivation.

Some people enjoy the cycles and become more motivated because of them,
rather than struggling.

It probably has a lot to do with how much they exercise and how commited
they are to exercising.

Funny how that works out.
Doug Freyburger - 22 Apr 2008 18:06 GMT
> >Here's why I think you don't want to do this often or maybe
> >even at all: If you had carb cravings when you started low
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Some people enjoy the cycles and become more motivated because of them,
> rather than struggling.

It is true that some people have little or no carb cravings.
Apparently those folks have no clue or sympathy for the
difficulty of getting through the cravings.

> It probably has a lot to do with how much they exercise and how commited
> they are to exercising.

And with just happening to be blessed with a lack of carb
cravings.

> Funny how that works out.

Sure, lack of sympathy for what's difficult works just like that.
jcderkoeing - 23 Apr 2008 00:47 GMT
"jcderkoeing" <jcderkoe...@ibm.com> wrote:
> "Doug Freyburger" <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Some people enjoy the cycles and become more motivated because of them,
> rather than struggling.

->It is true that some people have little or no carb cravings.
->Apparently those folks have no clue or sympathy for the
->difficulty of getting through the cravings.

Some people have carb cravings like everyone else, but also know that it'll
pass in a day or two if they stick to the program.

> It probably has a lot to do with how much they exercise and how commited
> they are to exercising.

->And with just happening to be blessed with a lack of carb
->cravings.

Or not.

> Funny how that works out.

->Sure, lack of sympathy for what's difficult works just like that.

One can be sympathetic, (or even empathetic), without floating excuses for
all to use.  Is it possible for people with carb cravings to butch up in
order to achieve their goals?  Or are you saying that everyone that has carb
cravings should rule out a more efficient and effective diet program so that
they'll never have to feel even a twinge or pang on the road to success?
Doug Freyburger - 23 Apr 2008 15:20 GMT
> One can be sympathetic, (or even empathetic), without floating excuses for
> all to use.  Is it possible for people with carb cravings to butch up in
> order to achieve their goals?  Or are you saying that everyone that has carb
> cravings should rule out a more efficient and effective diet program so that
> they'll never have to feel even a twinge or pang on the road to success?

It is a given that overcoming carb cravings can be done
once and only once by doing most popular low carb
programs.  It is also a given that people who did
experience carb cravings the first time can, if they
chose, experience those cravings again and again and
again if they do cycling.  That's crazy because it's
extra stress for no gain.  There are strategies that stay
low that work just fine.  There are even folks who've built
up to doing marathons while staying in the ketotic range.
Bob - 24 Apr 2008 00:45 GMT
>> One can be sympathetic, (or even empathetic), without floating excuses  
>> for
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> low that work just fine.  There are even folks who've built
> up to doing marathons while staying in the ketotic range.

Doug, just ignore that idiot.

In the meantime, I'm going to see how many rides (17-20 miles, with a  
'hard' ride of 7 hills and an easy ride of 4 hills) I can while eating  
very low carb.  In the past, I tried to add carbs in at certain times, but  
that not only derailed my progress in terms of weightloss but also made me  
hungrier.  For those of us who are insulin resistant, eating carbs is  
simply a bad thing.

Signature

Bob in CT

jcderkoeing - 24 Apr 2008 01:14 GMT
"jcderkoeing" <jcderkoe...@ibm.com> wrote:

> One can be sympathetic, (or even empathetic), without floating excuses for
> all to use. Is it possible for people with carb cravings to butch up in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that
> they'll never have to feel even a twinge or pang on the road to success?

--It is a given that overcoming carb cravings can be done
--once and only once by doing most popular low carb
--programs.

You just now made that up.

--It is also a given that people who did
--experience carb cravings the first time can, if they
--chose, experience those cravings again and again and
--again if they do cycling.  That's crazy because it's
--extra stress for no gain.

Obviously you don't exercise enough to understand what the gain is.

--There are strategies that stay
--low that work just fine.  There are even folks who've built
--up to doing marathons while staying in the ketotic range.
 
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