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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / November 2008

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Statins

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FOB - 27 Oct 2008 22:16 GMT
My SO's doctor wants to put him on a statin, I know there are a lot of
people here who have read a great deal about the subject.  I am trying to
convince him not to, his cholesterol is really not very high, but he has
faith in his doctor.  Could someone recommend a book or website that might
convince him, something not too long or technical to read?
Susan - 28 Oct 2008 01:58 GMT
> My SO's doctor wants to put him on a statin, I know there are a lot of
> people here who have read a great deal about the subject.  I am trying to
> convince him not to, his cholesterol is really not very high, but he has
> faith in his doctor.  Could someone recommend a book or website that might
> convince him, something not too long or technical to read?

Lots of citations to back his assertions:

> http://www.spacedoc.net/

Susan
FOB - 28 Oct 2008 02:47 GMT
Thanks.

| x-no-archive: yes
|
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
|
| Susan
Michael - 28 Oct 2008 06:31 GMT
> My SO's doctor wants to put him on a statin, I know there are a lot of
> people here who have read a great deal about the subject.  I am trying to
> convince him not to, his cholesterol is really not very high, but he has
> faith in his doctor.  Could someone recommend a book or website that might
> convince him, something not too long or technical to read?

I think you may be on the wrong track.

Statins have numerous good side effects besides lowering cholesterol and
decreasing strokes and heart attacks.

Regular long term statin use produces a huge reduction in the risk of
alzheimers. It significantly reduces mortality from pneumonia.

I personally have taken high dose Zocor for almost ten years. I did have
 exertional angina from going up a single flight of stairs. After 10
years of Zocor, I have to go up three flights of stairs to get angina.
It has significantly improved my quality of life. To get this benefit,
my dose was 40 mg per day. My overall cholesterol was last measured at
105. Sometimes it is actually below 100.

So, I think you should consider more carefully your decision to
discourage your SO from taking this drug. If one does not react
adversely to this drug, the benefits are great.

I am 65, and buy this drug now very cheaply in the generic form,
simvastatin.

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=31074
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/E/8059/23591.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE49R0M120081028
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/statins-reduce-risk-alzheimers-disease/sto
ry.aspx?guid={D2E107C5-816C-45BA-9BA6-948067DD67B8}&dist=hppr

Susan - 28 Oct 2008 16:46 GMT
>> My SO's doctor wants to put him on a statin, I know there are a lot of
>> people here who have read a great deal about the subject.  I am trying
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Statins have numerous good side effects besides lowering cholesterol and
> decreasing strokes and heart attacks.

And some awful and insidious ones, since LDL cholesterol is what all our
adrenal steroid hormones are made from.  This HPA axis disregulation is
probably why statins promote higher cancer incidence, breast development
in some men, and fatigue and cognitive dementia.

> Regular long term statin use produces a huge reduction in the risk of
> alzheimers. It significantly reduces mortality from pneumonia.

Statin use promotes cognitive dementia.

> I personally have taken high dose Zocor for almost ten years. I did have
>  exertional angina from going up a single flight of stairs. After 10
> years of Zocor, I have to go up three flights of stairs to get angina.
> It has significantly improved my quality of life. To get this benefit,
> my dose was 40 mg per day. My overall cholesterol was last measured at
> 105. Sometimes it is actually below 100.

Older folks with the lowest cholesterol and LDL have the highest
mortality rates.

Susan
Michael - 28 Oct 2008 20:25 GMT
Susan,

The studies show the exact opposite of what you said here.
For men, statins lower the risk of mortality from prostate cancer.

See: http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/5/344
http://www.pharmalot.com/2008/07/statins-may-protect-against-dementia-study/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070520140914.htm

Please quote the studies that show any overall increased mortality from
taking statins long term.

All the double blind studies I read show only decreased mortality in the
aged.

His doctor is doing the right thing.

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Older folks with the lowest cholesterol and LDL have the highest
> mortality rates.

Again the studies indicate the exact opposite of your statement.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7CWH-4R32XR6-2&_user=1
0&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&
md5=618bed719a58c88cf98d16f1d579909c


> Susan
Susan - 28 Oct 2008 20:46 GMT
> Susan,
>
> The studies show the exact opposite of what you said here.
> For men, statins lower the risk of mortality from prostate cancer.

When you read studies supplied by the sellers, you don't get honest
risk/benefit appraisal.  Only now, after 30 years of accumulated statin
damage, is the U.S. NIH undertaking to study just how badly statins
suppress adrenal function.  That's sickening, particularly as drug
companies are pushing these drugs on children. All of our sex hormones,
electrolyte balancing hormones and stress hormones are manufactured from
LDL.

http://www.spacedoc.net/medwatch_reporting.html

Susan
Michael - 29 Oct 2008 00:20 GMT
I still have not seen any references from you for any double blind study
 that supports your statements.

As you must know, large double blind studies are the reference by which
medicine is practiced.

Your statements below are simply not supported by any studies. At least
none that I and perhaps you know of.

Where's the beef?

Contradicting large double blind studies requires very credible evidence
to the contrary. Your personal statements about this do not constitute
anything close to a large double blind study.

I certainly do not want to get personal about this Susan, but surely you
must agree that all real science is done by experiments (studies) that
are repeatable by others. When studies conducted by different
researchers come up with the same results, this has always been the gold
standard for reality. It is mine.

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 29 Oct 2008 01:07 GMT
> I still have not seen any references from you for any double blind study
>  that supports your statements.

Then you haven't read the peer reviewed citations provided on the web
site I sent you to that summarizes the findings in lay language.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.

Susan
FOB - 29 Oct 2008 02:29 GMT
I have more faith in the line of studies Susan cites than yours.  I just
don't think it's worth the risk of nasty side effects to try to "cure" a
problem that doesn't exist.  I printed out some things for him (he's not
computer friendly) and at the present he seems inclined to decline the
statins.  He's 76 years old and very healthy.  He went to the doctor because
he had a tightness in his chest.  The cardiologist says if it was his heart
it would be lower and that it's likely from shoulder problems he's had--he
was beaten up once which injured his shoulder and then dislocated it in a
fall.  They put him through all sorts of stress tests and everything looked
fine.  I just think he's a bit of a hypochondriac though he doesn't like to
take medicine.

| Again the studies indicate the exact opposite of your statement.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7CWH-4R32XR6-2&_user=1
0&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&
md5=618bed719a58c88cf98d16f1d579909c

trader4@optonline.net - 29 Oct 2008 14:02 GMT
> I have more faith in the line of studies Susan cites than yours.  I just
> don't think it's worth the risk of nasty side effects to try to "cure" a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> | Again the studies indicate the exact opposite of your statement.
> |http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7CWH-4R32XR...

I don't want to get into the whole statin debate, as there are merits
to both sides of the argument.   But I think it is worth commenting on
how people read what they want to read into a news report on a new
study and how it then gets added to the list of alleged benefits of a
particular drug.  In this case, I took a look at the Reuters story
about the link between statins and decreased mortality from pneumonia
where a new study in Denmark found a 31 % lower risk in dying from
pneumonia when patients had been on statins.   But, it also says:

" Some studies have linked statin use with decreased risk of severe
sepsis -- infection of the bloodstream -- or death associated with
infections, but there had been conflicting findings on pneumonia,
according to Dr. Reimar Thomsen of Aarhus University and Aalborg
Hospital in Denmark."

So, if there have been conflicting findings in other studies, it isn't
clear to me that this new study does anything to settle the issue and
end the conflict.   To do a fair analysis, one would have to look at
all the other studies done and not rely on just this latest one.
However a story like this can do wonders to promote the drugs and it
would be interesting to see who paid for the study.

Also, it's interesting that Michael says that double blind studies are
the standard by which medicine is practiced.   Yet the Denmark
pneumonia study was not a double blind study.   It was only
statistical data extracted from hospital records.    And I'd offer
just one possible alternative reason why patients on statins could do
better following hospitilazation for pneumonia.   Taking statins means
they have been under a doctors care for some period of time and that
could be an important difference, that, if not properly accounted for,
could skew this studies results.  Consider two different patients
admitted at the hospital.   One that has been under regular doctor's
care.   That person could have other health issues that have been
properly addressed and are under control, could take more interest in
taking better care of themselves, and be in better overall health,
etc.   Patient B shows up having not been to a doctor in 20 years and
is a homeless person living on the street.     Which do you think
would have the higher mortality?  And then, assuming you are going to
do the study correctly and totally fairly,  you have the enormous
problem of how to correctly adjust for this when using hospital
records from years gone by.  And then you have the issue of personal
biases or expectations perhaps entering in to the decisions of how to
adjust the data.
wifezilla@gmail.com - 28 Oct 2008 20:54 GMT
"According to a number of papers, statin drugs seem to increase levels
of vitamin D in those who take them, which makes me wonder if any
benefits that statins provide don’t come from this increase in vitamin
D levels. If so, it would be a whole lot cheaper and a whole lot safer
to simply take vitamin D3 supplements.

This issue reminds me of a talk on the mechanism of action of statins
that I sat through at a medical meeting in Napa, California about 10
years ago. At that time researchers knew that along with their
cholesterol-lowering capabilities statins also acted as anti-
inflammatory agents. Statins increase the production of nitric oxide,
an extremely short acting substance that has relaxing and anti-
inflammatory effects on the lining of the arteries. The researcher
giving the talk was from Harvard, and he had done a study in which he
compared the nitric oxide releasing ability of l-arginine (an amino
acid) and a statin drug. He found that the way that statins increased
the production of nitric oxide mimicked the way l-arginine did the
same thing. He proudly announced that his research showed for the
first time how statins really worked to exert their anti-inflammatory
effects. I wondered at the time why he didn’t just recommend that
patients be given l-arginine - a natural substance with virtually no
side effects - instead of statins? I would have asked the question,
but this was a mainstream medical meeting, and I figured if I asked
that question I might be stoned."

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statins/statins-and-vitamin-d/
Susan - 28 Oct 2008 21:04 GMT
> "According to a number of papers, statin drugs seem to increase levels
> of vitamin D in those who take them, which makes me wonder if any
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statins/statins-and-vitamin-d/

Well, they may have an anti inflammatory mechanism, but they also
promote inflammation by suppressing production of cortisol and other
adrenal steroids.

Susan
Martin Levac - 13 Nov 2008 15:22 GMT
> "According to a number of papers, statin drugs seem to increase levels
> of vitamin D in those who take them, which makes me wonder if any
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statins/statins-and-vitamin-d/

Eh, a fellow low carber!
nobody@nowhere.invalid - 30 Oct 2008 16:03 GMT
>  Could someone recommend a book or website that might
>  convince him, something not too long or technical to read?

http://www.thincs.org
Martin Levac - 13 Nov 2008 15:15 GMT
> My SO's doctor wants to put him on a statin, I know there are a lot of
> people here who have read a great deal about the subject.  I am trying to
> convince him not to, his cholesterol is really not very high, but he has
> faith in his doctor.  Could someone recommend a book or website that might
> convince him, something not too long or technical to read?

There's nothing good about statins. Except that it makes a lot of money
for a lot of people.

Cholesterol is essential to life. All cells are made of cholesterol to
some extent. The brain is made of a good portion of cholesterol. Without
cholesterol, a fetus is non-viable. Statins make women stupid. It
provides no benefit whatsoever to anybody except men with existing heart
disease under the age of 65. And even this is so small as to be
insignificant compared to a whole bunch of other therapies for much less
money.

Hypercholesterolemia? WTF does that even mean?!? There is no correlation
between cholesterol and heart disease. If anything, a high cholesterol
is beneficial and a low cholesterol is detrimental. Cholesterol is not
what causes heart disease. Insulin is atherogenic i.e. it causes
atherosclerosis i.e. heart disease. Carbohydrates drive insulin drives
fat accumulation. Carbs drive insulin drives heart disease.

Yeah, statins are bad for your SO.
Martin Levac - 13 Nov 2008 15:16 GMT
> My SO's doctor wants to put him on a statin, I know there are a lot of
> people here who have read a great deal about the subject.  I am trying to
> convince him not to, his cholesterol is really not very high, but he has
> faith in his doctor.  Could someone recommend a book or website that might
> convince him, something not too long or technical to read?

Forgot to add a link to a source of critical thinking on the subject:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/
 
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