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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2009Atkins diet and type 2 diabetes
My father came down with type 2 when he was 66 years old in 1986. My wife was diagnosed in 1999. I went on the Atkins diet with her in the same year. I did so in hope that I might dodge the type 2 bullet. A few days ago a realized that my hopes about this were unrealistic. I measured my BG and it was 126 in the morning before eating. I then ate a meal that comprised a total of 12 grams of carbohydrates. After 20 minutes my BG rose to 157. I have no symptoms at this point, but it is clear that I have developed the disease at the same age that my father did. 9 years of low carb diet did not serve as a prophilactic. I have now stopped the maintenance diet and reverted to the induction diet. This diet reversed the damage done by uncontrolled type 2 in my wife. It also made her BG reading normal. So now I am stuck with the induction diet. I realize this is a great improvement over the normal treatment which always results in a downhill spiral. I don't want to eventually be shooting insulin. I'll take the induction diet permanently before I want to start using a needle. Disappointed in Michigan. How many carbs a day were you eating iun maintenance? | My father came down with type 2 when he was 66 years old in 1986. | My wife was diagnosed in 1999. I went on the Atkins diet with her in [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] | | Disappointed in Michigan. > How many carbs a day were you eating iun maintenance? > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > | > | Disappointed in Michigan. Start a sensible program. Check out www.sabbaticaldiet.com Low carb works only for 6 months. >> How many carbs a day were you eating iun maintenance? >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Low carb works only for 6 months. Bull! Cheri > Low carb works only for 6 months. ROFL! Low carb works for as long as you stay on it. In studies, where participants added carbs after induction periods, low carb results were more similar to other diet results because the carb levels were more similar. I've controlled my diabetes without meds for 10 years, eating low carb. Susan FOB, I was averaging about 100 grams of carbohydrates per day. Maybe If I had stayed on the induction diet for 9 years I would not now have type 2. My bad. I have been on meat and water since the discovery of my high numbers. My BG readings are already improving. I realize it will take at least a couple of months of this to straighten myself out. What my wife found is that after 3 months of meat and water, she could pass a BG tolerance test. Meaning, that her BG would only rise to 130 with this test instead of nearly 300 when first diagnosed. I interpret this change as a definite physiological improvement. Her health improved dramatically. She had been showing just about every symptom that be attributed to type 2. She even had shortness of breath and chest pain with the slightest exertion. All that went away and now as I type this she is outside shoveling the snow from our driveway. There are always trolls here (possibly peta crazies) who try to tell us completely irrational things about the Atkins diet. Of course they have zero experience with this diet but claim to be experts. I have been on Atkins for close to 10 years I think now. If I can only be on it for 6 months, I must be dead now. My wife must be doubly dead because she has limited her carb intake to below 50 grams per day. I put these crazies in the category of religious nuts, because their own ideas about eating have become their religion and they are hell bent to evangelize. These people need to create their own newsgroup where they can proclaim their religion to the world. > How many carbs a day were you eating iun maintenance? > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > | > | Disappointed in Michigan. > FOB, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > with the slightest exertion. All that went away and now as I type this > she is outside shoveling the snow from our driveway. As someone who's been able to control type 2 for many years without meds, despite having high cortisol, I want to encourage you to eat colorful, leafy veggies, too! They won't raise your bg, but they'll certainly improve your antioxidant intake, nutrition and add variety you're missing. The very real physiological improvements your wife (and I) experience from treating high bg with low carb is due to improved insulin receptor function; even though protein has a higher insulin index than carbs, it's a slow, steady secretion, rather than the gushers provoked by high carbs, overwhelming and desensitizing receptors, thereby requiring even more insulin the next time and the time after that, etc... Most type 2s are diabetic for many years before diagnosis. One reason for this is that the fasting test is the last number to rise, many years after post meal numbers have been in the diagnostic range, untested and undetected. I've been DM for over 15 years, have never yet had a fasting bg in the diagnostic range. Susan > FOB, > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > | > > | Disappointed in Michigan. Man, your life sound stressful. You need to do this and do that and check this and +++++ Well, my friend Diabetes was cured following this religious nut diet. And he was was not doing this and that and +++++ Low carb is only a temporary relief. Be honest, I bet you are aging very fast. That how low carb people look to me.OLD Some folks are just meant to be plonked without reading. Susan >> FOB, >> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > Low carb is only a temporary relief. Be honest, I bet you are aging > very fast. That how low carb people look to me.OLD So true. :-) > x-no-archive: yes > > Some folks are just meant to be plonked without reading. > > Susan >> Man, your life sound stressful. You need to do this and do that and >> check this and +++++ Well, my friend Diabetes was cured following this >> religious nut diet. And he was was not doing this and that and +++++ >> Low carb is only a temporary relief. Be honest, I bet you are aging >> very fast. That how low carb people look to me.OLD >Man, your life sound stressful. You need to do this and do that and >check this and +++++ Well, my friend Diabetes was cured following this >religious nut diet. And he was was not doing this and that and +++++ >Low carb is only a temporary relief. Be honest, I bet you are aging >very fast. That how low carb people look to me.OLD Cured, huh? Wow -- that's impressive. And checking this and no doing this and that, either, eh? That sounds like front page news -- which front page would I find that on? You obviously know nothing about low carb -- or diabetes, either, for that matter. But please, stick around. There are a few here who would enjoy playing with you until you decide to quit embarrassing yourself. And you look like a troll to me. | Man, your life sound stressful. You need to do this and do that and | check this and +++++ Well, my friend Diabetes was cured following this | religious nut diet. And he was was not doing this and that and +++++ | Low carb is only a temporary relief. Be honest, I bet you are aging | very fast. That how low carb people look to me.OLD >> FOB, >> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > Low carb is only a temporary relief. Be honest, I bet you are aging > very fast. That how low carb people look to me.OLD Bull! And...there is no cure for diabetes. Cheri It seems to me there is probably an optimum place somewhere between 100 grams and 20, lots of type 2s control their diabetes with LC eating. Part of it is in the timing, your test was done with carbs in the morning which is when they affect you the most. I'd suggest you hop over to alt.support.diabetes. The people there who eat to their meter will help you out. There are a lot of low carb veggies and some fruits that have stuff that meat doesn't that are good for you. I am pre diabetic and pretty much follow a good diabetic diet. I test for new foods to see how much they affect me then I know whether they are a good part of my diet or not. Susan posts there and she has a lot of knowledge. | FOB, | [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] | These people need to create their own newsgroup where they can | proclaim their religion to the world. Thanks FOB and everyone else except for the troll common senseless nutjob I will subscribe to the diabetes newsgroup. I am sure there is some good knowledge to pick up there. I have not yet tried a large salad. I might try tomorrow and of course measure before and after. I know there is significant carb count in even green leafy vegetables. I just don't know how it will effect me. I will try because I really liked salads. I think just about everything else is off the table for me now. Someday I might be able to try fruit again. But I will avoid that much dose of sugar for now. I suppose I might be classified as pre-diabetic. I have no symptoms except that awful 157 reading. Maybe I am just kidding myself. I think I really just have diabetes. I do know that we all have different body chemistries. I will need to test foods like you said to see their effect on me. I will look for Susan's postings on the alt.support.diabetes group. Thanks again for the comments. > It seems to me there is probably an optimum place somewhere between 100 > grams and 20, lots of type 2s control their diabetes with LC eating. Part [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > | These people need to create their own newsgroup where they can > | proclaim their religion to the world. >I know there is >significant carb count in even green leafy vegetables. I just don't know >how it will effect me. I will try because I really liked salads. Hi, Michael -- I guess it depends on what you consider "significant." I'm looking at a bag of iceberg/romain lettuce right now (there are better choices, but this is what I could get) and there are only about 7g net carbs in the entire 11 ounce bag, which contains about three servings. Three ounces of fresh spinach is only about 1g net carb, which is a *lot* of spinach. There are almost no carbs in salad greens, which is why they are on the Atkins Induction list. So I'm curious to know why you think the carbs would be so high? When I'm making up a salad, I don't even include the carb counts for the greens in my calculations, because they are basically insignificant compared to the other things that might go in there, like tomatoes, onions, avocados, cheese, and the dressing. I'm in pretty much the same boat you are. If I keep to induction levels, my BG is very stable and controlled. As my weight goes down, I can successfully tolerate more. I did have a disasterous experiment yesterday -- a >20g dinner spiked me 70 points :-( -- but it had nothing to do with a salad. So don't be afraid of the greens. They're a low-carber's best friend. If you don't have a carb counting book -- which I'm sure you must have -- you can also use Fitday.com to find out what the carb counts are in foods. Welcome. I hope to read more about your successes. BlueBrooke, Thanks for the encouragement. I will try a salad today and report back on what happened. This morning before eating my BG was 134, the worst ever. I had bacon and eggs. 20 minutes after eating my BG was 99. This is the second time this has happened. I started before with a high BG level at an evening meal and eating a carb free dinner dropped my BG down to 98. This does not make any sense to me. I will not argue with success but the mechanism that might cause this is a complete mystery to me. >> I know there is >> significant carb count in even green leafy vegetables. I just don't know [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Welcome. I hope to read more about your successes. > BlueBrooke, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > carb free dinner dropped my BG down to 98. This does not make any sense > to me. Because maybe you don't know that the release of insulin has complex stimuli. It's not only blood glucose. The mere presence of food in the digestive tract stimulates insulin. Some amino acids from dietary protein stimulate insulin too. If you eat something that doesn't raise your blood glucose, the insulin release which is triggered will probably lower blood glucose. No-brainer. Ok Kaz, It was a mystery to me until now. Thanks for letting me understand this mechanism a little better. BlueBrooke, I had my first salad since my self diagnosis. It was a large salad with tuna and very low carb salad dressing. Also, it was a whole can of solid white tuna. The salad vegetables were sliced green pepper, cauliflower, iceberg lettuce, and broccoli. My beginning reading was 109. The reading 25 minutes after finishing this salad was 98. I am so so happy about this. I feel like I need to be able to eat salads now and then. And yes, you were right about this. I am so glad you were right. I knew the carb count from all these vegetables was significant, but obviously the source of the carbs can effect us differently than if these carbs were from sugar. >> BlueBrooke, >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > No-brainer. > BlueBrooke, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I will not argue with success but the mechanism that might cause this is > a complete mystery to me. Protein induces a very strong insulin response, and in type 2s, it does not raise glucose, the way carbs do. Hence, your bg drops. Susan > >I know there is > >significant carb count in even green leafy vegetables. I just don't know > >how it will effect me. I will try because I really liked salads. It doesn't sound like you understand what a "green leafy vegitable" is. My favorite example is cauliflower because it's so easy to find cauliflower that's not green and that doesn't have leaves. As with so many food categorizations you need to know what it looks like on the farm. Consider that the Atkins Induction phase also makes a distinction between fresh and aged cheeses where you need to know how that cheese was made. There are two Atkins lists for Induction. One is the 10% carb by weight list that contains asparugus, brocolli, cauliflower and so on. Those are the green leafy veggies. The other one is the 5% or less carb by weight list that contains various types of lettuce, cucumber (it's a fruit not a veggie!), radishes and so on. > I guess it depends on what you consider "significant." I'm looking at > a bag of iceberg/romain lettuce right now (there are better choices, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are on the Atkins Induction list. So I'm curious to know why you > think the carbs would be so high? If you deduct fiber, even doing the green leafy veggies the portions can get large. To get over 50 grams in a day it can seem like the portion size of cauliflower to get there is as big as your head. But try that with the ones on the salad list and the portion sizes to get to 50 really are bigger than your head. > When I'm making up a salad, I don't even include the carb counts for > the greens in my calculations, because they are basically > insignificant compared to the other things that might go in there, > like tomatoes, onions, avocados, cheese, and the dressing. When staying low I'll make my salad of several types of leaves, radishes, cukes, maybe a little hard aged cheese like grated parmiagan. Those don't add up much. > I'm in pretty much the same boat you are. If I keep to induction > levels, my BG is very stable and controlled. As my weight goes down, > I can successfully tolerate more. I did have a disasterous experiment > yesterday -- a >20g dinner spiked me 70 points :-( -- but it had > nothing to do with a salad. I'm still tolerant in the range of 50 in a meal, 100 in a day. But type 2 by age 70 does run in my family so I know I should start tapering down by the time I hit 60. > So don't be afraid of the greens. They're a low-carber's best friend. > If you don't have a carb counting book -- which I'm sure you must have > -- you can also use Fitday.com to find out what the carb counts are in > foods. On the 6 month comment - It does happen to some people who stay at Induction levels that they fall out of ketonuria and stop losing about 6 months in. It's on the extremely long list of why Induction in the book is two weeks. Been there, done that, got that teeshirt. And even though it's true there also happens to some people that they can stay at 20 for years without this happening, the conservative approach is to follow the directions. But guess how many type 2 diabetics see the six month thing happen? Bingo! The 6 month comment is a troll tactic when it doesn't include all sorts of caveats and exceptions, but it does happen to some. Thanks Doug for your comments. I truly appreciate the time and knowledge that people here have offered me. I am still feeling a little bit of shock about the whole thing. I foolishly thought I was not going to get type 2. Now I have to go to my doctor to be officially diagnosed so I can get free test strips. A benefit I never wanted to earn. >>> I know there is >>> significant carb count in even green leafy vegetables. I just don't know [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > but > it does happen to some. > Thanks Doug for your comments. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > doctor to be officially diagnosed so I can get free test strips. A > benefit I never wanted to earn. I.e. you have not been officially diagnosed, but only self-diagnosed. In what units are your blood glucose measurements? Kaz, I first checked my numbers about a week ago when I bought some new test strips for my wife. I thought I would just check mine even though I was sure it would be fine. It was not fine. It read 125. My numbers wandered around this range for a couple of days. Then one morning I measured myself at 120 before eating breakfast. My wife made a carefully measured breakfast for me. It contained 11 grams of carbohydrates. After 20 minutes my BG shot up to 157. Someone who has a normally functioning body will not experience this kind of jump. I know. I had tested myself a couple of years before. I could sit down and eat a meal that contained even 50 carbs with a rise of only 4 points from a starting base of 100. The 157 measurement was the one that really got me past my original denial. I kept making excuses for high readings. There is no adequate excuse for 157 except insulin resistance or a lack of insulin. >> Thanks Doug for your comments. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I.e. you have not been officially diagnosed, but only self-diagnosed. > In what units are your blood glucose measurements? >Someone who has a normally functioning body will not experience this >kind of jump. I know. I had tested myself a couple of years before. I >could sit down and eat a meal that contained even 50 carbs with a rise >of only 4 points from a starting base of 100. Ah -- well -- I'm sure someone else will come along who knows more about it than I do, but it's my understanding that 100 is too high for a "normie." So, even then, there was probably something going on. I check my son occasionally. He thinks I just like to stab him. I have no comment on that. ;-) No matter what he eats, he's in the 80's. My hubby, too. Of course, this could also just be a matter of the meter itself. I *think* the manufacturers are allowed 20%. Of course, it's all in the timing -- a four point rise how long after you ate? Thirty minutes? An hour? Two? That makes a difference. http://alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm My wife and I made a study of the timing after a meal. We did this years ago. We found that if you take your BG every 5 minutes and make a chart there will be a spike. We found that spike to be at 20 minutes. So we measure our BG looking to see the spike. Every five minutes is a lot of stabbing. My BG was measured several times in 1986 when my father came down with type 2. I always seemed to measure 100. Maybe my BG had an individual variance. My normal temperature is 96.8. So I guess we all have different norms for our bodies. After a week of the intake diet, I was finally pleased to see my morning BG at 106. I realize this is not normal. But it is better than I had been getting. Like I said, maybe after a few months of the intake diet my BG will begin behaving normally. I realize this is no cure. But I want to see my tolerance for carbohydrate intake look like my wife's. She can cheat occasionally and then she checks her BG. It barely rises. Of course cheating all the time means back in the same pickle barrel. >> Someone who has a normally functioning body will not experience this >> kind of jump. I know. I had tested myself a couple of years before. I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > http://alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm > My wife and I made a study of the timing after a meal. We did this years > ago. We found that if you take your BG every 5 minutes and make a chart > there will be a spike. > > We found that spike to be at 20 minutes. So we measure our BG looking to > see the spike. Every five minutes is a lot of stabbing. I hope you kept testing to find the peak; most folks peak between 45-60 minutes post meal. > After a week of the intake diet, I was finally pleased to see my morning > BG at 106. I realize this is not normal. But it is better than I had > been getting. Like I said, maybe after a few months of the intake diet > my BG will begin behaving normally. I think you mean 'induction,' not "intake." In any case, a small protein snack before bed can lower your fbg considerably. Susan |
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