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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2009Davinci Syrup, is it a scam?
I have been recently diagnosed with type 2. My wife makes me pancakes in the morning. Each one is quite large. It is made with soy flour, splenda, eggs, and cream. The only carb count comes from the soy flour. It amounts to 8 grams of carbs. Each time I have eaten that pancake my BG shot up. I was using Davinci syrup in generous quantities because it claims zero carbs for 1/4 cup. I could not believe that 8 carbs could effect me so dramatically. Today I had the same exact pancake with butter, cinnamon, and splenda. My carb count dropped from 109 before breakfast to 103 20 minutes after breakfast. Can anyone offer an explanation that does not involve fraud on the part of the pancake syrup manufacturer? I've heard that some people have a response just to the taste of sweetness. DaVinci syrup just has Splenda, no carbs. | I have been recently diagnosed with type 2. My wife makes me pancakes | in the morning. Each one is quite large. It is made with soy flour, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | Can anyone offer an explanation that does not involve fraud on the | part of the pancake syrup manufacturer? > I've heard that some people have a response just to the taste of sweetness. > DaVinci syrup just has Splenda, no carbs. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > | Can anyone offer an explanation that does not involve fraud on the > | part of the pancake syrup manufacturer? There is another ingredient in the syrup, and that is cellulose gum. I did a bit of googling and it seems that 90% of it is supposed to be excreted. But it isn't clear to me exactly how much is known about it and exactly what happens to it when it's ingested. An interesting experiment would be to eat the same meal with a homemade syrup of just Splenda and some flavoring to see what happens. Preferably using liquid Splenda so it's truly zero carbs. Also, a lot of folks on here, some of whom are diabetic, use DaVinci syrups and this is the first time I've heard of any problems attibuted to it. BTW, you are sure you have the sugar free version, right? I think they do make both kinds, as I think I made the mistake of buying the wrong version once since it looks so similar? >> I've heard that some people have a response just to the taste of sweetness. >> DaVinci syrup just has Splenda, no carbs. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >syrups and this is the first time I've heard of any problems attibuted >to it. I'm one of them. I bought an entire case of DaVinci Syrups a couple of years ago and have used them frequently -- my favorite use is on snow cones that I make with an inexpensive machine I bought at Wal*Mart, Great, carb free snacks. Personally, I've never had a BG response to the SF DaVinci Syrups. > I have been recently diagnosed with type 2. My wife makes me pancakes > in the morning. Each one is quite large. It is made with soy flour, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Can anyone offer an explanation that does not involve fraud on the > part of the pancake syrup manufacturer? I don't pretend to know anything about diabetes but I do know that Davinci makes both sugar and sugar free types of syrups. Are you sure you grabbed the right bottle? Also, powdered Spenda (either bulk or packets) has carbs from the fillers so if there's enough of it in your pancake you're getting carbs from more than just the soy flour. > > I have been recently diagnosed with type 2. My wife makes me pancakes > > in the morning. Each one is quite large. It is made with soy flour, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Except he says he ate the same pancakes made with Splenda that had even MORE Splenda on top instead of the Davinci syrup and his BG went down. Which rules out the Splenda completely. I'd like to hear back if he checks the bottle. Using the regular Davinci instead of SF was my thought too. I thought they made both and it was Davinci where I almost bought a bottle of the regular because they look so similar. The only other thing going on here that I can think of is that in his test without Davinci he put cinnamon on top of the pancakes instead. Cinnamon has a stabilizing effect on BG levels and some take it as a natural way to help control BG. So, that could have an effect on what he's seeing in the second test. I checked the bottle and it is indeed carb free. I also carefully read all the ingredients. I realize that the test I made cannot have real scientific value unless it is repeated over and over. Splenda appears to have have no effect on my BG. Perhaps the cinnamon is having a good effect. At this point I just don't know. >>> I have been recently diagnosed with type 2. My wife makes me pancakes >>> in the morning. Each one is quite large. It is made with soy flour, [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > natural way to help control BG. So, that could have an effect on > what he's seeing in the second test. > I checked the bottle and it is indeed carb free. I also carefully read > all the ingredients. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Splenda appears to have have no effect on my BG. Perhaps the cinnamon > is having a good effect. At this point I just don't know. There is another possibility. Unlikely perhaps but maybe there was a mistake made at the factory and bottles were mislabeled. If you have any urine glucose test strips put a drop of syrup on one and see if it registers as sugar.  SignatureJeri "You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses." ~Ziggy~ Jeri, I don't have any strip, but I will sure buy some now. That is a great idea. Finally I have something I can do about this. I live in rural America. I must order Davinci syrup over the internet. As a result I have a full case sitting in my basement that I am now afraid to touch. The sugar test strips should solve the riddle. Many thanks for this great idea. >> I checked the bottle and it is indeed carb free. I also carefully read >> all the ingredients. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > glucose test strips put a drop of syrup on one and see if it registers as > sugar. > Jeri, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Many thanks for this great idea. I can't take the credit. If I recall correctly, a long time ago someone on this newsgroup posted that she always took glucose test strips with her when she ate out to make sure the soda she ordered was really sugar free after getting the full sugar version on more than one occaision. I hope you can get to the bottom of your BG spikes whatever the cause may be. SignatureJeri "You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses." ~Ziggy~ > I have been recently diagnosed with type 2. My wife makes me pancakes in > the morning. Each one is quite large. I will correct your carb count in case that makes a difference. "Quite large" isn't an amount but it suggests that the carb count is not what you think it is. I think you have been tricked by the US rounding down policy on labels and a wish to believe stuff is true zero when it's not. Anything half a gram down can be rounded to zero on US labels. > It is made with soy flour, You already know the carb count of this. > splenda, Not zero carb. Splenda packets are a half gram of sugar filler each and other brands of AS tend to be closer to one gram each than to half. If you're using bulk Splenda that's also not zero carb. It uses sugar as a filler so even though its lighter and fluffier than regular sugar to make a volume per volume replacement it ends up plenty carby. Whatever portion they picked to claim it's zero, they picked it because it is 0.4 to 0.5 grams. Count how many portions your pancake uses and the actual carb count is half that many grams of sugar. I see commercials advertizing a new formulation of Splenda packets that have a gram of fiber. I wonder if that replaces the half gram of sugar filler? If so that's a good thing. > eggs, Half gram each. > and cream. At 6 grams per cup this is 0.4 grams per tablespoon so a half gram per tablespoon. > The only carb count comes from the soy flour. It amounts to 8 grams of > carbs. I don't know the portions of the other ingredients but the actual carb count is going to be different. Especially if you're using plenty of Splenda thinking it's true zero when it has sugar as its filler. > Each time I have eaten that pancake my BG shot up. I was using > Davinci syrup in generous quantities because it claims zero carbs for > 1/4 cup. Claims are often nonsense. Davinci has a history of being pretty good about making cliams that are true so I don't think it is the Davinci havng hidden carbs or carbs that are not counted. > I could not believe that 8 carbs could effect me so dramatically. Today > I had the same exact pancake with butter, cinnamon, and splenda. My carb > count dropped from 109 before breakfast to 103 20 minutes after breakfast. Extra Splenda would increase the real carb count and do it with sugar. > Can anyone offer an explanation that does not involve fraud on the part > of the pancake syrup manufacturer? Depending on the portions involved your carb count could be off by a lot. I think another explanation is more likely. If you read around in studies in the last several years you will find articles that show artificial sweeteners travelling down the digestive tract tend to trigger insulin release. I don't think any of the studies used Splenda but it isn't much of an extrapolation. Sweetness triggering insulin even if it isn't real sugar, it might be what's happening. The experiment to try this is not hard. Make the pancake with nothing in it sweeter than cream. Make one that's rich not sweet and use your meter to see the result. No unexplained blood sugar swings, then switch to the rich pancakes because it was the sweetness that caused it not the actual carb count. The pourable Splenda has 24 g carb/cup. || I have been recently diagnosed with type 2. My wife makes me || pancakes in the morning. Each one is quite large. [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] | blood sugar swings, then switch to the rich pancakes because | it was the sweetness that caused it not the actual carb count. > > I have been recently diagnosed with type 2. My wife makes me pancakes in > > the morning. Each one is quite large. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > Depending on the portions involved your carb count could be off > by a lot. > I think another explanation is more likely. If you read around in > studies in the last several years you will find articles that show [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > triggering insulin even if it isn't real sugar, it might be what's > happening. None of that explains why he gets a spike when he uses the Davinci syrup but NOT when he eats the same pancakes with all the same ingredients, plus even more Splenda on top instead of the Davinci. > The experiment to try this is not hard. Make the pancake with > nothing in it sweeter than cream. Make one that's rich not > sweet and use your meter to see the result. No unexplained > blood sugar swings, then switch to the rich pancakes because > it was the sweetness that caused it not the actual carb count. "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net> wrote: > None of that explains why he gets a spike when he uses the Davinci > syrup but NOT when he eats the same pancakes with all the same > ingredients, plus even more Splenda on top instead of the Davinci. One of the principles of the Atkins process is that every body is different and it has different reactions to different chemicals. One reason for the carb ladder and the OWL process is to add ingredients back in one by one to find what we have reactions to. Find an ingredient that we have a reaction to, drop that item on your personal list of foods to be avoided. Items on the personal list might be there because of some reaction that is like an intolerance, that triggers addictive behavior patterns, that has a glycemic load high enough to trigger an insulin response. Why doesn't matter, just that once an igredient is known to be problematic it should be avoided. Michael now knows that something in Davinci syrup is problematic for him even though it is not problematic for anyone else reporting so far. Custom tuned to the individual body's reaction to individual ingredients, classic Atkins process. And since he knows that Splenda packets or bulk (he has not specified which) aren't a problem then he knows it's whatever filler there is in the syrup. > > The experiment to try this is not hard. Make the pancake with > > nothing in it sweeter than cream. Make one that's rich not > > sweet and use your meter to see the result. No unexplained > > blood sugar swings, then switch to the rich pancakes because > > it was the sweetness that caused it not the actual carb count. Right. Straightforward experiment. Remove all of the suspects and confirm there's no problem. Next step would be to add in the suspect ingredients one by one until he knows what is and isn't a problem. I don't know what liquid filler is used by Davinci just that so far Michael's the first I recall saying it's a problem. Everyone's different so if it's a problem for Michael it doesn't matter that it isn't a problem for anyone else. One size does not fit all. Michael, Also consider trying Sweetfreeze and mixing it yourself with ingredients you're confirmed don't cause a problem. Or you can punt and go rich not sweet. > "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > One of the principles of the Atkins process is that every body > is different and it has different reactions to different chemicals. But in this case we're talking about getting a spike when he eats the same pancakes with Davinci and not getting it when he eats the same pancakes with Splenda applied on top instead. So, why pontificate on the carb count of soy flour, eggs and all the rest when they were held constant? > One reason for the carb ladder and the OWL process is to add > ingredients back in one by one to find what we have reactions [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > response. Why doesn't matter, just that once an igredient is > known to be problematic it should be avoided. And again, that has zippo to do with what we're talking about here. Personally, I don't have reactions to any particular food. Nor did Atkins say you had to add foods back one by one and judge reactions to each addition. He pretty much said you increase carbs by 5g steps until find your CCL. Don;t make it more complicated than it is. > Michael now knows that something in Davinci syrup is > problematic for him even though it is not problematic for > anyone else reporting so far. Custom tuned to the individual > body's reaction to individual ingredients, classic Atkins > process. I wouldn't say he knows that for sure. It's only happened one time. And depsite all the people who use Davinci, this is the first incident we've heard of. I like the suggestion to test the syrup with glucose strips to verify that it is in fact correctly bottled as sugar free. And I'd also like to see him test his BG reaction to just the syrup a couple more times. > And since he knows that Splenda packets or bulk (he has > not specified which) aren't a problem then he knows it's > whatever filler there is in the syrup. That's the first thing here you've said that makes any sense. If it is indeed being caused by the DaVinci, then the cellulose gum would be the likely candidate. > > > The experiment to try this is not hard. Make the pancake with > > > nothing in it sweeter than cream. Make one that's rich not [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > with ingredients you're confirmed don't cause a problem. Or you > can punt and go rich not sweet. Well, before I did any more speculating, if I were him I would repeat the same breakfast and see if he gets the same response. One random happening does not constitute a database. | None of that explains why he gets a spike when he uses the Davinci | syrup but NOT when he eats the same pancakes with all the same | ingredients, plus even more Splenda on top instead of the Davinci. Thank you all, I am certainly learning a lot very quickly here. I appreciate how helpful and knowledgeable you all are. I realize I do not have a database, yet. I do not want to repeat this spike again. So, I will wait until I have my BG down to "normie level". Then I will start testing with Davinci again. Right now I have simply stopped eating these pancakes at all. My wife drove here BG back to normie levels by eating zero carb (not quite zero I guess because eggs have 1/2 gram) for 3 months. She lost a lot of weight. I need to do the same. I will just extrapolate from her experience that maybe it will work for me. I just read a study about BG spikes. They concluded that a single large spike continues to do damage to the body for two weeks. I am not willing to test right now and look at large spikes. I will wait until I get my readings to normal and then look for what should be smaller spikes. I will report these here. I had a BG reading this morning of 109 before eating. This is an improvement but not normal. I have a way to go. My wife tested hers and it was 98. Doug was pretty enlightening about the hidden carbs (at least to me) in some of the foods I have been eating. >> I have been recently diagnosed with type 2. My wife makes me pancakes in >> the morning. Each one is quite large. [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > blood sugar swings, then switch to the rich pancakes because > it was the sweetness that caused it not the actual carb count. You never indicated how much that "spike" was. A conservative goal is 140 1 hour post meal, 120 2 hours. I suppose 40 points from 100 would look like a big spike but when you read the numbers of some really out of control people, 40 is a pretty small swing. Have you seen http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14045621.php | Thank you all, | [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] || blood sugar swings, then switch to the rich pancakes because || it was the sweetness that caused it not the actual carb count. > You never indicated how much that "spike" was. A conservative goal is 140 1 > hour post meal, 120 2 hours. I suppose 40 points from 100 would look like a > big spike but when you read the numbers of some really out of control > people, 40 is a pretty small swing. Those aren't actually conservative goals in medical fact, they're conservative in terms of conventional recommendations, which don't reflect the available science. 140 is the level at which cellular/organ damage occurs, even if it's only a brief elevation. So to go higher would be a Very Bad Idea. Those of us who strive for excellent control aim to keep post meal spikes minimal, and consider 40 to be a warning about meal composition. Susan Somewhere I did mention the spike, but I don't know how far back it was anymore. OK, my readings before breakfast was 120. My reading 20 minutes after finishing that pancake with syrup was 157. that is a 37 point spike. Yucko. I am doing better now. I repeated the pancake test once more without the syrup. It was covered with splenda and cinnamon. My before reading was 109, my after was 103. The same pancake with no syrup actually decreased my reading. Michael > You never indicated how much that "spike" was. A conservative goal is 140 1 > hour post meal, 120 2 hours. I suppose 40 points from 100 would look like a [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] > || blood sugar swings, then switch to the rich pancakes because > || it was the sweetness that caused it not the actual carb count. > Somewhere I did mention the spike, but I don't know how far back it was > anymore. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Michael I don;t see why you keep adding cinnamon to the mix. If you want to establish whether it's the Davinci, you need to keep things constant except for testing with and without the Davinci. Cinnamon is an especially poor thing to add, because it's actually taken as a natural supplement to help control blood sugar. Cinnamon is an > especially poor thing to add, because it's actually taken as a natural > supplement to help control blood sugar. Yabbut, it doesn't work. I mean, I know lots of folks who've seen a diff from chromium, alpha lipoic acid, silymarin, and I've seen it myself. But never anyone who's tried cinnamon and seen the diff on a test meter. Susan > Somewhere I did mention the spike, but I don't know how far back it was > anymore. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > reading was 109, my after was 103. The same pancake with no syrup > actually decreased my reading. Michael, most of us over on the diabetic group have a rule about not eating any carbs at any meal with a pre test reading of 110 or above. That may solve this issue for you, in practice. Susan Yes,Susan I agree this sounds like a good rule. It never occurred to me but it sounds like the smart thing to do. Did I mention, I'm so happy, my FBG this morning was 97. A new benchmark for me. Michael > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Susan > Yes,Susan > > I agree this sounds like a good rule. It never occurred to me but it > sounds like the smart thing to do. > > Did I mention, I'm so happy, my FBG this morning was 97. 97 what? Don't believe in units? :) I would ditch the soy flour and replace it with almond meal, then test your bg. > I would ditch the soy flour and replace it with almond meal, then test > your bg. Again, someone who apparently doesn't understand the issue. He gets a spike when he has pancakes with Davinci. He doesn't get it with the SAME PANCAKES plus Splenda and cinnamon on top. So, why start looking at the soy flour in the pancakes, which is something lots of us here use with no apparent BG issues? Thanks for paying attention to my posts trader4, Right now I do not have my morning FBG under control. Yesterday I had a reading of 97. I thought well, I must being getting better already. Not so. Today it was 114. I am keeping my carb intake to rock bottom until I see some very serious progress. That means no pancakes until my FBG is under control. I will report back about this matter some more after I feel I am able to indulge in carbs at all. Michael >> I would ditch the soy flour and replace it with almond meal, then test >> your bg. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > looking at the soy flour in the pancakes, which is something lots of > us here use with no apparent BG issues? >> Yes,Susan >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 97 what? Don't believe in units? :) milligrams glucose per deciliter blood plasma? > Yes,Susan > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Did I mention, I'm so happy, my FBG this morning was 97. A new benchmark > for me. Michael, you've made very rapid progress in a very short time. Keep up the good work and eat your veggies! :-) Susan |
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