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So slow.....

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Martin Barrett - 26 Jan 2009 11:46 GMT
Hi,

Been low carbing again for the last month, and the weight loss is steady
but slow - around 1 pound per week.
I know - I know - this is good - but it never was this slow before I
fell off the wagon end of last year.

Especially annoyed as my TSH is .3 and free T4 over the top of the
scale, so am borderline hyperT - which I would have thought would help
with weight loss. Apparently not.
(makes me irritable and fuzzy headed and sleepless though)

Moan over - back to my 20g carbs a day and the anti candida diet (no
dairy or fruit or alcohol - just meat/fish and veggies/salad)

Martin
trader4@optonline.net - 26 Jan 2009 14:50 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Martin

Imcreasing excercise has been known to work.
Doug Freyburger - 26 Jan 2009 16:31 GMT
> Been low carbing again for the last month, and the weight loss is steady
> but slow - around 1 pound per week.
> I know - I know - this is good ...

It may well be there's never been a dieter in history satisfied
with their rate of loss.  Nah, there's gotta be someone out
there who is - I've just yet to encounter one in ten years of
low carbing ... ;^)

I think wanting faster than you can get is a part of the deal.
I also think that knowing that on an intellectual level helps
a little but when it comes down to it what helps is to stay
on plan and see lack of regain and new lows on a realistic
time cycle.  No one likes realistic time scales but realistic
time scales are what actually happens.

> - but it never was this slow before I
> fell off the wagon end of last year.

I wonder how true that really is compared to the factors
that apply.  Stuff like seeing the initial carb loss that
includes the water it was dissolved in, having more to lose
giving faster loss rates, being more willing to follow the
directions simply because that's what the book says to
do next ...
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 26 Jan 2009 19:07 GMT
martin.barrett@itv.com wrote:
>Been low carbing again for the last month, and the weight loss is steady
>but slow - around 1 pound per week.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Moan over - back to my 20g carbs a day and the anti candida diet (no
>dairy or fruit or alcohol - just meat/fish and veggies/salad)

Too much fat in addition to those carbs might be stalling you. Try consuming
only lean protein in addition to cutting the carbs.

Orlando
trader4@optonline.net - 26 Jan 2009 20:01 GMT
> martin.barr...@itv.com wrote:
> >Been low carbing again for the last month, and the weight loss is steady
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Orlando

If that's the case, then how do you explain the concept of a fat fast,
which is a technique to break stalls, which Atkins recommended.  Plus,
he's NOT even close to stalled.    Also, curious concept going from
"too much fat" to consuming only lean protein, which would be zero
fat.   I would also suggest that consuming only lean protein is a
prescription for trouble.   Fat keeps you satiated.  It was avoiding
fat and replacing it with carbs that made America fatter than ever.

Bottom line, what he's doing is working.  He's losing a pound a
week.   What the hell do you expect?   No need to screw it up.
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Jan 2009 06:14 GMT
>Also, curious concept going from
>"too much fat" to consuming only lean protein, which would be zero
>fat.   I would also suggest that consuming only lean protein is a
>prescription for trouble.   Fat keeps you satiated.  It was avoiding
>fat and replacing it with carbs that made America fatter than ever.

I never said zero fat; South Beach, which I prefer to Atkins, is almost like
induction during its first phase, except that only lean meats, eggs and
vegetable oils are permitted. This is mainly for people with astronomically
high cholesterol. Even lean meats and mono unsaturated vegetable oils satiate
just as much as animal or saturated fats. The true satiety comes from protein
anyway.

Orlando
Roger Zoul - 27 Jan 2009 13:16 GMT
>>Also, curious concept going from
>>"too much fat" to consuming only lean protein, which would be zero
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Orlando

What does

"Too much fat in addition to those carbs might be stalling you. Try
consuming
only lean protein in addition to cutting the carbs."

mean? It did sound as if you're saying "no fat".

How does one eat only protein anyway? Protein powder? Yuck.
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Jan 2009 15:40 GMT
rogerzoul2@hotmail.com wrote:
>How does one eat only protein anyway? Protein powder? Yuck.

From meat, fish, eggs, cheese, soy products, even certain beans and legumes.

Orlando
Roger Zoul - 28 Jan 2009 01:33 GMT
> rogerzoul2@hotmail.com wrote:
>>How does one eat only protein anyway? Protein powder? Yuck.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Orlando

Those don't give you protein only. Those give you fat, protein, and even
carbs.
trader4@optonline.net - 27 Jan 2009 14:49 GMT
> trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> >Also, curious concept going from
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> induction during its first phase, except that only lean meats, eggs and
> vegetable oils are permitted.

You didn't say zero fat, but you did say that in addition to cutting
carbs, to eat only lean protein.   That would seem to exclude the
vegetable oil and eggs.  Somehow I don't think your above statement is
what you really mean either, as I think SB's first phase is more than
just that short list.

>This is mainly for people with astronomically
> high cholesterol.

Which has what to do with Martin's issue?   It's pretty well
established that dietary cholesterol isn't very well corelated to
serum cholesterol.   For example, most people switching to Atkins see
their total cholesterol numbers either stay the same or improve, while
HDL rises.   This while eating more animal fats.   I think in the real
world dietary restrictions have to be so severe to make a significant
change in serum chol, that from a practical sense, it just doesn't
work.

>Even lean meats and mono unsaturated vegetable oils satiate
> just as much as animal or saturated fats. The true satiety comes from protein
> anyway.
>
> Orlando

Which could you eat more of?   Turkey breast or butter?  And if you
want to now include veg oils, how does that square with telling him to
eat only lean protein?
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Jan 2009 15:39 GMT
>Which could you eat more of?   Turkey breast or butter?

I'd enjoy turkey breasts much more than thinly disguised or straight butter.
Some people get off on fat, though.

>And if you want to now include veg oils, how does that square with telling him
to eat only lean protein?

I only mentioned lean protein as an alternative to the fat fast he was
proposing. Low carb doesn't necessarily equate to high saturated fat; it's just
a question of what you want to replace the carbs. Some prefer to eat absurd
amounts of green vegetables instead of carbs.

Orlando
Doug Freyburger - 27 Jan 2009 16:01 GMT
> ... Some prefer to eat absurd
> amounts of green vegetables instead of carbs.

Wow.  You have a serious language barrier.  Any plant
based foods have carbs.  Plenty of animal based foods have
carbs.

The word "absurd" in your statement above is meaningless
without some clue on what portions you mean - In surveys
of long term low carbers the largest commonality is they
replaced starchy foods with vegetables lower in carbs.
Would you say that carb eaters consume absurd amounts
of potatoes or grain or whatever?  I would say that.  Do I now
eat absurd quantities of low carb veggies?  Folks who love
junk food would say that.
trader4@optonline.net - 27 Jan 2009 23:57 GMT
> trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> >Which could you eat more of?   Turkey breast or butter?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I only mentioned lean protein as an alternative to the fat fast he was
> proposing.

I must have missed where Martin was proposing a fat fast.  All I
recall was him complaining a bit that 1 lb a week wasn't as fast as he
lost last time he went LC.

>Low carb doesn't necessarily equate to high saturated fat; it's just
> a question of what you want to replace the carbs. Some prefer to eat absurd
> amounts of green vegetables instead of carbs.
>
> Orlando
Martin Barrett - 28 Jan 2009 10:09 GMT
>> I only mentioned lean protein as an alternative to the fat fast he was
>> proposing.
>
> I must have missed where Martin was proposing a fat fast.  All I
> recall was him complaining a bit that 1 lb a week wasn't as fast as he
> lost last time he went LC.

Yes - I wasn't proposing a fat fast - although not averse to the idea.
I do enjoy a high percentage of fat in my diet, mostly from olive oil,
lard and natural fat in eggs beef etc.

I was bemoaning the fact that even though my thyroid runs fast, it
doesn't appear to help drop the pouinds ( as it does in some).

Slow has become zero this week, but I do know that weight happens in
fits and starts and is not so easily predictable.

Thanks for the ideas guys!

Martin
Doug Freyburger - 29 Jan 2009 16:00 GMT
> I was bemoaning the fact that even though my thyroid runs fast, it
> doesn't appear to help drop the pouinds ( as it does in some).
>
> Slow has become zero this week, but I do know that weight happens in
> fits and starts and is not so easily predictable.

As happens so often there's advice on this topic from Dr
Atkins that applies across the board to all dieters not just
At-kids -

A stall is 4+ weeks without a new low, without a lost
inch, without going off plan.

This definition is important because it teaches what is and
what isn't reasonable in expectations and what is and isn't
slow.  At this point you've seen 4 new lows in the last 5
weeks.  You're no where near stalled and not losing slowly.

I know it *feels* slow but when it comes down to it you
could be seeing a new low daily and it would still *feel*
slow.  Loss rates aren't about feelings.  Loss rates are
about reality and what actually happens.  It very hard to
get past the feelings but it's mandatory.  Let the feelings
rule and eventually they will sap your resolve to stay on
plan no matter what plan you're on.  You've seen a new
low very recently when viewed objectively - Focus on that
and make sure it settles in.
Martin Barrett - 30 Jan 2009 17:18 GMT
Thanks everyone for the support.
This week I'm lost zero pounds - but not down hearted as my belt is
suddenly looser.

Have a good weekend all!
Martin
Doug Freyburger - 30 Jan 2009 18:26 GMT
> This week I'm lost zero pounds - but not down hearted as my belt is
> suddenly looser.

Celebrate that more than a lost pound!  Seriously, how many
people diet to actually lose pounds not inches?  The ones who
have health issues related to severe obesity not the folks with
50 or so to lose.  For most size is the real end - slimmer body -
and the numbers on the scale are really an inaccurate side
effect of our size that just happens to be easy to measure.

I'll take a belt notch over a new low any day!
Doug Freyburger - 26 Jan 2009 20:07 GMT
> Too much fat in addition to those carbs might be stalling you. Try consuming
> only lean protein in addition to cutting the carbs.

Bad advice - Not true while on low carb.  So long as your
total calories are not out of line fat does not interfere with
loss while on low carb.  No matter that you may think it
because it's obvious, obvious does not equal true.

Fat help suppress appetite - the form where it determines
how long befor ethe next time you get hungry rather than
the form that determines how full your stomach feels - and
hence it actually leads to eating lower total calories.  Try
it and see.

There are also hormonal reasons that calorie for calorie fat
leads to better loss than protein.  Going low in fat pushes
glucagon levels low and thus pushes low the rate fat is
withdrawn from storage.  It's part of the old "fat fast"
experiment.
kickinkelly - 28 Jan 2009 15:35 GMT
I am the same way. It takes a LOT of exercise to make me lose. I eat
under 30 carbs a day and do not move a pound unless I get a lot of
exercise.

I also have a weird thyroid that says I am hyperthyroid, yet I am
chubby, sleepless, and always on the go.

WEIRD !!!

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Martin
Jeri - 29 Jan 2009 17:13 GMT
> Hi,
>
> Been low carbing again for the last month, and the weight loss is
> steady but slow - around 1 pound per week.
> I know - I know - this is good - but it never was this slow before I
> fell off the wagon end of last year.
<snip>

It's refreshing to hear someone say they know that slow and steady is good.
If you think you should be losing a bit faster I'm just going to gently
remind you that calories do count. :o) If you eat more calories than you
burn it really doesn't matter how low carb you eat you won't lose. Check
your calorie consumption and if it's too high either exercise more (best
choice) or eat less.
Signature

Jeri
"Change is inevitable, except from vending machines."

Martin Barrett - 17 Feb 2009 18:04 GMT
Well guys - have discovered something interesting.

Like I said I was losing a pound a day, but that was while I stayed
dairy free, no soda, and no coffee, not even decaff.

But in the last three weeks I have gained 3 pounds back, and all I did
was add dairy back in.

Not added back in huge amounts either.
Typically a spoon of cream on a very few berries, or a little cheese, a
few ozs a day that's all.

And I also have started to feel spaced out and brain foggy - so I'm
quite sure it's the dairy. I recognise this may be candida from googling
around.

So, today I start back dairy free - shame as I love the stuff.

thanks
Martin
Doug Freyburger - 17 Feb 2009 20:36 GMT
> Well guys - have discovered something interesting.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Typically a spoon of cream on a very few berries, or a little cheese, a
> few ozs a day that's all.

Using the eliminate-and-challenge principle to find personal
problem ingredients it doesn't take much.

> And I also have started to feel spaced out and brain foggy - so I'm
> quite sure it's the dairy.

This shows an interesting feature of eliminate-and-challenge
processes - It is much easier to notice a symptom returning
when an ingredient is added back in than it is to notice a
symptom disappearing when an ingredient is removed.  And
to think that "spaced out and brain foggy" likely used to be
your normal state back when you regularly had dairy.

Intolerance to dairy proteins and to lactose are common.  You
will want to double check at some point - In a few months of
dairy free try adding a little dairy again and see if the same
thing happens.  You don't want to drop dairy forever if you
just happened to suffer an alergy from pollen this time!  To
be extra sure a few months down the line you may want to
try it a third time "three strikes and you're out" is a lot more
certain than "one strike and you're out".

After you've done those experiments you may want to
consider some variations on the theme each a couple of
months after the previous experiement.  Try parmiaganna
as the cheese with the lowest lactose - If you have no
reaction to it you are likely lactose intolerant not dairy
protein intolerant.  Then try goat milk or cheese made
from it (several types of spreadable goat cheese are
delicious), then sheep milk or cheese mae from it (the
finest romano is made from sheep milk for example).
That will cover all the easily available options and take
about a year for trying something every other month.

> I recognise this may be candida from googling
> around.

Given how common intolerances to either dairy proteins
or lactose are, there is no reason to think this before
isolating dairy proteins and lactose.

> So, today I start back dairy free - shame as I love the stuff.

My sympathies.  I'm wheat intolerant so I need to
permanently consider wheat a personal poison to be
avoided.  The only breads I can have are ones that are
wheat free and those aren't ever low carb.  The only
pasta I can have are wheat free and those are high carb
alternate grain ones like quinoa or the Japanese
shirataki noodles.  And so on.

What helped for me - As soon as I discovered that for
me wheat is poisonous I scheduled a confirmation test
a month or two out and then a "three strikes and you're
out" triple check a month or two after that.  When both
repeat tests gave the same symptoms so I could be
certain it was wheat specifically, I decided that wheat is
toxic for me.  A personal poison.  All of the bad
symptoms it triggers are how my personal poison hits
me.  I made a huge adjustment to my attitude based
on those tests.  Wheat for me went from yummy but
missed high carb temptation to evil poison lurking on
the ingredients list lurking in there to make me sick.
Attitude *matters*.

Finding such a personal poison and permanently avoiding
the toxic stuff made a permanent improvement in my
helath level and I'm sure you'll experience the same.

Even better news - I'm more than 9 years into avoiding
toxic wheat at this point.  In my first years I avoided
anything that might even have a trace of wheat.  After
about 5 years I got a little lax and tried some cream of
vegitable soup at a restaurant without asking how it
was made.  I got tiny symptoms not huge symptoms.
Very cool - I need to actively avoid wheat my whole
life but if I get accidentally dosed by a trace amount
that 5 year of avoidance was enough that the intensity
of symptoms from an accidental dose is now lower.
There's some sort of system that regular dosing
increases the reaction and regular avoidance decreases
the reaction.
Doug Freyburger - 17 Feb 2009 20:48 GMT
> So, today I start back dairy free -

There are dairy free alternatives you may want to check
out.  "Chreese", soy based cheese alternative, milk made
from soy or nuts, tofu isn't the only bean curd that can be
found just the most common.

> shame as I love the stuff.

A common feature of food intolerances - They trigger
addictive behavior patterns.  It's not just that I love
wheat, it's that wheat is my worst binge trigger of any
food I've ever tried.

The good news is that once I had detoxed off wheat for
several weeks I found that I had stopped craving the evil
toxic stuff.  It became easy for me to avoid it.  The bad
news is one bite is enough to redose me into addictive
behavior patterns.

Avoidance is key for me when it comes to my trigger
food wheat.  I bet you will experience the same pattern
with dairy.

And yet, and yet.  Certain substitutes don't trigger
addictive behavior patterns in me.  Pasta made from
the rare grain quinoa doesn't trigger a binge in me at
all.  It's just carby enough I need to limit it to a meal
every couple of months.  But if I eat it it doesn't trigger
a desire for real wheat pasta.

My best guess is you'll be able to use substitutes to
some extent, and since they won't trigger addictive
behavior reactions you'll find it easy to only have
substitutes most weeks or most months easily
limited.

It may not seem like it now, but I think discovering a
personal poison like this is going to be very good news
for you in the long term.  Symptoms to enforce avoidance.
Getting spoiled by a permanent improvement in health.
Using substitutes that taste good but don't pressure
you to eat them more often.
 
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