Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / August 2009
Pinging Susan
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Walter - 19 Aug 2009 00:32 GMT Susan, do you have any insight into my VAP results? I seem to recall you had researched that some.
-Walter
Susan - 19 Aug 2009 00:46 GMT > Susan, do you have any insight into my VAP results? I seem to recall you > had researched that some. I think several folks here might. Have you posted them?
Susan
Walter - 19 Aug 2009 05:29 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan I posted them here several days ago. Here it is again:
I have been low carbing for 4 years, and despite having high cholesterol, I have been statin free for those same 4 years. I am one of those "lucky" ones that have inherited a tendency for high cholesterol regardless of diet. Low fat made no significant difference.
So after quitting statins and going low carb, my total cholesterol Has sky rocketing to the high 200s and peaking at 327 a couple of years ago. Last test was 282, with LDL of 209, and HDL of 47. This causes my GP and family no small concern since I am not treating it. I decided to take a more thorough test on my own to evaluate my cholesterol more thoroughly, since my mother has had two bypasses (first in her mid 50's) and most of my dad's family has had heart trouble, Not him so far, but he is on statins. I am 48.
I got the VAP test results (I did the test on my own) and I am not quite sure how to interpret it. Of course almost every measurement is flagged HIGH by their measurement. I don't see anything on the report that says LDL particle size. Some of the numbers are: NON HDL = 235, apoB100-Calc = 156. LDL-R = 164. Lp(a) = 24. IDL = 36. LDL Density pattern = A/B, leaning towards the pattern A side. There are more, but I am not sure which are significant.
While I was at it, I had a calcium CT scoring with the result showing 3.6 total Agatston which puts me in the low risk for CAD category. Volume was score was 4.71mm and I have no clue what that means.
I exercise regularly, still do mostly low carb, have low trig and blood sugar, have never smoked and have a BMI of 23.
Taken in total, what does all this mean, especially the VAP? I am still trying to fend off statins until I have no choice, but I don't want to be stupid either. Outside the issue of Dr and family pressure, I have been looking into renew or changing my life insurance. Some of those I looked at want to rate you on your cholesterol and whether your number is a treated or untreated number. Obviously premiums are higher if cholesterol is higher. Of course, health insurance is higher if you take statins. It's a no win situation.
Thanks
Susan - 25 Aug 2009 02:36 GMT Walter, I'll have to get back to this. It's been ages since I've read up on the VAP. On the face of it, it looks good, though, low TGLs and higher HDL is the combination most predictive for good outcomes.
Susan
>> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Thanks Susan - 25 Aug 2009 03:14 GMT Walter, here's a very useful article about what VAP testing looks for.
http://cholesterol.about.com/lw/Health-Medicine/Drugs-and-treatments/The-VAP-Tes t-Beyond-Traditional-Cholesterol-Testing.htm
Ypu don't seem to have furnished all the components or the lab reference ranges, though.
Unfortunately, it calles LDL "bad" cholesterol and HDL "good." That's stupid stuff. LDL is what all of our sex hormones and life sustaining steroids are made from to protect us during illness and stress, to regulate our electrolytes and to regulate immunity.
It's true that low TGL and high HDL combined is a marker for bouyant, non atherogenic LDL. It's also true that in large studies, LDL is the least predictive lipid of CVD and TGLs are the most predictive individual risk marker.
An HDL/TGL ratio below 3 is considered good. I have cholesterol and LDL as high as yours, yet the Harvard risk calculator rates me as below average risk for my very high HDL and low TGLs. Your HDL could be higher, but if your TGLs are under 100, probably not important.
The fact that your pattern leans toward the A pattern is another indicator that you're on the right track metabolically.
I would suggest two things, one at a time; the first is to get a cheap blood glucose monitor at Walmart (Relion, the test strips are the cheapest) and start testing your blood glucose according to this:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php
Next, depending upon your results, consider either taking 150 mg of silymarin with meals and alpha lipoic acid, time released 300 mg twice daily. ALA will reduce insulin resistance, silymarin will lower post meal glucose.
If your bg is always below 140 (actually, between 85-110 or so at all times is ideal), then try the stuff in the citations below to lower LDL and raise HDL. It does everything a statin does without any of the damage that statins do:
[Evaluation of the cholesterol-lowering effectiveness of pantethine in women in perimenopausal age]
[Article in Italian]
Binaghi P, Cellina G, Lo Cicero G, Bruschi F, Porcaro E, Penotti M.
Servizio di Cardiologia, Istitut Clinici di Perfezionamento, Milano.
Cardiovascular diseases are the main cause of death also in women. Their incidence, rapidly growing in the peri-menopausal period, is related to serum levels of total cholesterol and its LDL fraction. It was also shown that the peroxidation of LDL is an additional factor in the genesis of atherosclerotic vascular disease. As long-term treatments with synthetic lipid-lowering drugs may cause undesirable side effects, while pantethine is known to be well tolerated, we treated 24 hypercholesterolemic women (total serum cholesterol greater than or equal to 240 mg/dl), in perimenopausal age (range: 45-55 years, mean +/- SD = 51.6 +/- 2.4) with 900 mg/day of pantethine. This is a precursor of coenzyme A, with an antiperoxidation effect in vivo, and our aim was to confirm its lipid lowering activity in this particular type of patients. After 16 weeks of treatment, significant reductions of total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol and LDL-C/HDL-C ratio could be observed. No remarkable changes of the main laboratory parameters (fasting blood sugar, B.U.N., creatinine, uric acid) were seen. Efficacy percentages of the treatment were about 80%. None of the patients complained of adverse reactions due to the treatment with pantethine. In conclusion, we suggest that pantethine should be considered in the long-term treatment of lipid derangements occurring in the perimenopausal age.
PMID: 2359503 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Acta Biomed Ateneo Parmense. 1984;55(1):25-42. Related Articles, Links
[Hyperlipidemia, diabetes and atherosclerosis: efficacy of treatment with pantethine]
[Article in Italian]
Arsenio L, Caronna S, Lateana M, Magnati G, Strata A, Zammarchi G.
The hypolipidemizing effects of Pantethine were investigated by the Authors in 37 hypercholesterolemic and/or hypertriglyceridemic patients. Of these, 21 were also diabetic, in a satisfying glucidic compensation, in order to verify the action of this drug also in this metabolic condition. The study was carried out for three months and during this period the patients were given Pantethine at the dose of 600 mg/die orally. At the 30th, the 60th, the 90th day of treatment the following parameters were controlled: cholesterolemia, HDL cholesterol, apolipoproteins A and B, triglyceridemia, systolic and diastolic arterial pressure, uricemia, body weight. Thirty days after suspending the treatment, the parameters were controlled again to detect a possible "rebound" effect. The results were analyzed on the whole case-record, subdividing the patients in dislipidemic and diabetic-dislipidemic, and on the basis of the Fredrickson's classification. Pantethine induced in all groups a quick and progressive decrease of cholesterolemia, triglyceridemia, LDL cholesterol and Apolipoproteins B with increased HDL cholesterol and Apolipoproteins A. After suspending the treatment, there is a clear inversion of the state of these parameters. The Authors conclude that the present work shows that Pantethine, a natural and atoxic substance, an important component of Coenzyme A, is efficacious in determining a clear tendency towards normalization of the lipidic values.
PMID: 6232801 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Atherosclerosis. 1984 Jan;50(1):73-83. Related Articles, Links
Controlled evaluation of pantethine, a natural hypolipidemic compound, in patients with different forms of hyperlipoproteinemia.
Gaddi A, Descovich GC, Noseda G, Fragiacomo C, Colombo L, Craveri A, Montanari G, Sirtori CR.
Pantethine (P), the stable disulphate form of pantetheine, major component and precursor of coenzyme A, was evaluated within a double-blind protocol (8 weeks for P or for a corresponding placebo) in 29 patients, 11 with type IIB hyperlipoproteinemia, 15 with type IV, and 3 with an isolated reduction of high density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) levels. In type IIB patients, P (300 mg t.i.d.) determined a highly significant lowering of plasma total and low density lipoprotein (LDL) associated cholesterol (-13.5% for both parameters). In the same patients, HDL-C levels increased about 10% at the end of treatment. Switching from P to placebo was associated with a rapid return to the baseline cholesterolemia. Both in type IIB and type IV patients, plasma triglyceride levels were reduced around 30%, when P was given as the first treatment; when it was preceded by placebo, reductions were less striking (respectively, -17.8% for type IIB and -13.0% for type IV, at the end of P treatment). HDL-C levels were not increased by P, either in type IV, and in the patients with low HDL cholesterolemia. In type IV, LDL cholesterol levels showed a variable response to P: they tended to increase when below 132 mg/dl, prior to treatment, and to be reduced when above this level. This study provides evidence for a significant hypocholesterolemic effect of P, a natural compound free of overt side effects. It also indicates that P may raise HDL-C levels in type IIB patients, while moderately reducing triglyceridemia.
Publication Types: • Clinical Trial • Controlled Clinical Trial
PMID: 6365107 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol. 1986 Nov;24(11):630-7. Related Articles, Links
Lipoprotein changes induced by pantethine in hyperlipoproteinemic patients: adults and children.
Bertolini S, Donati C, Elicio N, Daga A, Cuzzolaro S, Marcenaro A, Saturnino M, Balestreri R.
Following a brief outline of current knowledge concerning atherosclerosis and its treatment, the authors describe the results obtained by treating with pantethine (900-1200 mg daily for 3 to 6 months) a series of 7 children and 65 adults suffering from hypercholesterolemia alone or associated with hypertriglyceridemia (types IIa and IIb of Fredrickson's classification). Pantethine treatment produced significant reduction of the better known risk factors (total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol, triglycerides, and apo-B) and a significant increase of HDL-cholesterol (signally HDL2) and apolipoprotein A-I. The authors conclude with a discussion of these results and of the possible role of pantethine in the treatment of hyperlipoproteinemia, in view of its perfect tolerability and demonstrated therapeutic effectiveness.
PMID: 3098691 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
: Atherosclerosis. 1984 Dec;53(3):255-64. Related Articles, Links Pantethine reduces plasma cholesterol and the severity of arterial lesions in experimental hypercholesterolemic rabbits.
Carrara P, Matturri L, Galbussera M, Lovati MR, Franceschini G, Sirtori CR.
Pantethine (P), a coenzyme A precursor, was administered to cholesterol-fed rabbits (0.5% cholesterol diet + 1% pantethine) for 90 days. At the end of treatment, plasma total cholesterol levels were reduced 64.7% and the HDL/total cholesterol ratio increased in P-treated animals; a significant rise of the apo A-I/A-II ratio was detected in HDL. VLDL lipid and protein levels were, on the other hand, reduced by P. The cholesterol-ester content of both liver and aortic tissues was not significantly affected by P. Although the total aortic area with evident plaques was reduced only 18.2%, the microscopical examination of sections from the major vessels of P-treated animals, showed a reduction in the severity of lesions, both in the aorta and in the coronary arteries. These findings suggest that P, in addition to significantly lowering plasma cholesterol levels in rabbits on an experimental diet, may modify lipid deposition in major arteries, possibly by affecting lipoprotein composition and/or exerting an arterial protective effect.
PMID: 6442152 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Clin Ther. 1986;8(5):537-45. Related Articles, Links
Effectiveness of long-term treatment with pantethine in patients with dyslipidemia.
Arsenio L, Bodria P, Magnati G, Strata A, Trovato R.
A one-year clinical trial with pantethine was conducted in 24 patients with established dyslipidemia of Fredrickson's types II A, II B, and IV, alone or associated with diabetes mellitus. The treatment was well tolerated by all patients with no subjective complaints or detectable side effects. Blood lipid assays repeated after 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12 months of treatment revealed consistent and statistically significant reductions of all atherogenic lipid fractions (total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and apolipoprotein B) with parallel increases of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and apolipoprotein A. The results were equally good in patients with uncomplicated dyslipidemia and in those with associated diabetes mellitus. The authors conclude that pantethine (a drug entity related to the natural compound, pantetheine) represents a valid therapeutic support for patients with dyslipidemia not amenable to satisfactory correction of blood lipids by diet alone.
PMID: 3094958 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Acta Biomed Ateneo Parmense. 1987;58(5-6):143-52. Related Articles, Links
[Clinical use of pantethine by parenteral route in the treatment of hyperlipidemia]
[Article in Italian]
Arsenio L, Bodria P, Bossi S, Lateana M, Strata A.
Servizio di Malattie del Ricambio e Diabetologia, Ospedali Riuniti, Parma.
Recent investigations have confirmed the effectiveness and the excellent tolerability of pantethine, a derivative of pantetheine, an essential part of the acetylation coenzyme CoA, administered P.O., in normalizing the blood lipid concentrations of patients with hyperlipidemias. A group of 18 patients with hyperlipidemias (9 M, 9 F), with an average age of 52.6 years, was submitted to pantethine parenteral treatment. After a 20 days wash-out, pantethine (400 mg/day; BID) was administered intramuscularly, for 20 days. Total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL-cholesterol, apo A-1 and B lipoprotein, uric acid in serum, glycemia, CBC, B.U.N., creatininemia, E.S.R., SGOT, SGPT, bilirubinemia, cardiac frequency, blood pressure and body weight were controlled before and after treatment. The drug showed to have a therapeutic effectiveness by a rapid and significant improvement in the blood lipid pattern with reduction of total cholesterol, triglycerides and apo-B lipoprotein and increase of HDL-cholesterol and apo A-1 lipoprotein. The tolerability of pantethine at the stated dosage and mode of administration was invariably excellent, with non complaints or visible side effects imputable to the test drug. BUN, creatininemia, glycemia, SGOT, SGPT, bilirubinemia, E.S.R., CBC, cardiac frequency and blood pressure readings showed no noteworthy changes throughout the study.
PMID: 2970754 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Vopr Pitan. 1987 Mar-Apr;(2):15-7. Related Articles, Links
[Therapeutic efficacy of pantothenic acid preparations in ischemic heart disease patients]
[Article in Russian]
Borets VM, Lis MA, Pyrochkin VM, Kishkovich VP, Butkevich ND.
The therapeutic effectiveness of the pantothenic acid drugs: calciipantothenas and pantethine, was studied in 182 patients with coronary heart disease and stable angina of effort. It is shown that both the drugs produce favourable effects on certain parameters of hemodynamics, on the metabolism of lipids, riboflavin and ascorbic acid. It is recommended that the administration of calciipantothenas in a dose of 300 mg/day, during 3 weeks, be included into the combined treatment of coronary patients with no manifest disorders of lipid metabolism. Patients with manifest hyperlipidemia should be administered pantethine in a dose of 500 mg/day.
PMID: 3590676 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Clin Nephrol. 1986 Feb;25(2):70-4. Related Articles, Links
Pantethine improves the lipid abnormalities of chronic hemodialysis patients: results of a multicenter clinical trial.
Donati C, Barbi G, Cairo G, Prati GF, Degli Esposti E.
In the course of a post-marketing surveillance program on the effectiveness and tolerability of pantethine in the treatment of hyperlipidemia, the effects of the drug were explored in 31 patients with dyslipidemia undergoing chronic hemodialysis. The mean duration of treatment was 9 months (min. 7 months, max. 24 months), with oral doses of 600 to 1200 mg of pantethine daily (mean daily dosage 970 mg). Improvement was noted in terms of total blood cholesterol in the 7 patients with basal hypercholesterolemia (p less than 0.01) and highly significant reduction of serum triglycerides. No variations of HDL-cholesterol or total Apo-A were detected. None of the patients experienced any adverse effects from the treatment. In the light of extensive experience with the drug, plus the results of this study, the authors conclude by stressing the importance of an effective and readily tolerated product, such as pantethine, for the treatment of dyslipidemia in patients on chronic hemodialysis.
Publication Types: • Clinical Trial
PMID: 3516477 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Artery. 1987;15(1):1-12. Related Articles, Links
Lowering effect of pantethine on plasma beta-thromboglobulin and lipids in diabetes mellitus.
Eto M, Watanabe K, Chonan N, Ishii K.
Second Department of Internal Medicine, Asahikawa Medical College, Japan.
Pantethine in a dosage of 600 mg for the first 3 months, and in a dosage of 1200 mg for the second 6 months was given to 16 diabetics in whom plasma beta-thromboglobulin was raised (greater than 50 ng/ml). Plasma beta-TG levels decreased significantly with pantethine treatment for 9 months. Plasma triglyceride, total cholesterol, apo E and apo CII levels decreased significantly after 9 months. Plasma LDL-C and atherogenic index (LDL-C/HDL-C ratio or apo B/apo AI ratio) tended to decrease with treatment. It is concluded that administration of pantethine may be beneficial in the prevention of diabetic angiopathy because of its lowering effect on plasma beta-TG, lipids and apolipoproteins.
PMID: 2963604 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Ter Arkh. 1991;63(11):58-60. Related Articles, Links
[The use of pantothenic acid preparations in treating patients with viral hepatitis A]
[Article in Russian]
Komar VI.
Calcium pantothemate in the daily dose 300 mg and 600 mg and pantetheine in the dose 90 mg and 180 mg per os were applied for 3-4 weeks in combined therapy of 156 patients with viral hepatitis A. In addition to the positive clinico-biochemical effect, these drugs produced an immunomodulatory action and a beneficial effect on the level of blood serum immunoglobulins and the phagocytic activity of peripheral blood neutrophils. Pantetheine provided the most pronounced therapeutic effect.
PMID: 1810066 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Clin Ter. 1989 Mar 31;128(6):411-22. Related Articles, Links
[Pantethine, diabetes mellitus and atherosclerosis. Clinical study of 1045 patients]
[Article in Italian]
Donati C, Bertieri RS, Barbi G.
After a review of the clinical studies on the treatment of diabetic patients with pantethine, the authors discuss the results obtained in a postmarketing surveillance (PMS) study on 1045 hyperlipidemic patients receiving pantethine (900 mg/day on average). Of these patients, 57 were insulin-dependent (Type I) and 241 were non insulin-dependent (Type II) diabetics. Beyond the epidemiological considerations made possible by a PMS study, the authors show that pantethine brought about a statistically significant and comparable improvement of lipid metabolism in the three groups of patients, with very good tolerability. Pantethine should therefore be considered for the treatment of lipid abnormalities also in patients at risk such as those with diabetes mellitus.
PMID: 2524328 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Vopr Pitan. 1983;(1):45-9. Related Articles, Links
[Pantothenic acid metabolic disorder and its relation to the change in energy processes in patients with ischemic heart disease and hypertension]
[Article in Russian]
Borets VM, Ovchinnikov VA, Mironchik VV, Moiseenok AG, Lis MA.
Pantothenic acid metabolism and the status of energy processes in leukocytes were examined in 171 patients with hypertension and coronary heart disease. It was shown that the patients' body supply with the vitamin decreased as the disease progressed and heart failure supervened. The deficiency of pantothenic acid was shown to be interrelated with the impairment of energy processes. Application of pantothenate in a dose of 200 mg a day for two weeks led to the increased content of pantothenic acid and to normalization of energy processes.
PMID: 6837001 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Angiology. 1987 Mar;38(3):241-7. Related Articles, Links
Effect of oral treatment with pantethine on platelet and plasma phospholipids in IIa hyperlipoproteinemia.
Prisco D, Rogasi PG, Matucci M, Paniccia R, Abbate R, Gensini GF, Neri Serneri GG.
In a single-blind, crossover, completely randomized study, the effects of oral treatment with pantethine or placebo on fatty acid composition of plasma and platelet phospholipids were investigated in 10 IIa hyperlipoproteinemic patients. A significant decrease of total cholesterol and total phospholipids was observed both in plasma and in platelets after a twenty-eight-day treatment. In plasma, pantethine induced a decrease of the ratio sphingomyelin/phosphatidylcholine. Moreover, a relative increase of n3-polyunsaturated fatty acids both in plasma and in platelet phospholipids and a decrease of arachidonic acid in plasma phospholipids were observed. These results indicate that pantethine can affect plasma and platelet lipid composition with possibly favorable influences on the determinants of cell membrane fluidity.
Publication Types: • Clinical Trial • Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 3551695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Walter - 25 Aug 2009 05:12 GMT Susan, thank you. My fasting BG is usually around 80-90. I do not check it every day, but I believe that is pretty good. I was diagnose with metabolic syndrome and was pre type II diabectic when I started the LC stuff. So BG is vastly improved.
I did not post all the the reults of my VAP because I wasn't sure which were important.
I will definately check into the pantothenic acid. I have seen those on the shelf near the vitamins, but had no clue what they were for.
I appreciate your time, effort and knowledgable opinion. Thanks again. Sorry for the top post.
-Walter
> x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 417 lines] > > PMID: 3551695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Susan - 25 Aug 2009 15:44 GMT > Susan, thank you. My fasting BG is usually around 80-90. I do not check > it every day, but I believe that is pretty good. I was diagnose with > metabolic syndrome and was pre type II diabectic when I started the LC > stuff. So BG is vastly improved. Walter, studies have shown that fasting glucose does not start to rise until most folks have been diabetic for years. The first thing to deteriorate is first phase insulin response in the first hour after eating. The fasting test has proven to miss the diagnosis of DM in 48% of men over 50 and 70% of women over 50. If you test at 45-60 minutes post first bite, those numbers would probably rise to 100%.
Test at one and two hours after your meals; that's the only way to see if you're truly diabetic or not. It's common for "pre diabetics" to develop kidney, retina and nerve damage along with elevated risk of CVD, so obviously, those are diabetic complications in people arbitrarily being called "pre diabetic" according to bad criteria.
read phlaunt.com/diabetes for more info.
> I did not post all the the reults of my VAP because I wasn't sure which > were important. jk > > I will definately check into the pantothenic acid. I have seen those on > the shelf near the vitamins, but had no clue what they were for. NOT pantothenic acid, it MUST be PANTETHINE, usually 300 mg 3x per day. Not the same thing, not the same effects.
Do not buy it or use it until you've tested your bg post meals and snacks and tried either silymarin, ALA or both along with carb reduction to control bg, which I suspect may be elevated at one hour.
Susan
Doug Freyburger - 25 Aug 2009 16:22 GMT > > I will definately check into the pantothenic acid. I have seen those on > > the shelf near the vitamins, but had no clue what they were for. > > NOT pantothenic acid, it MUST be PANTETHINE, usually 300 mg 3x per day. > Not the same thing, not the same effects. Interesting that they are alternate forms of vitamin B5 yet they have such different results. Doctor Atkins recommended B-5 for heart health - When my Dad had heart surgery at age 75 I started taking 500 mg of B-5 and I thought it was a lot. Not a lot compared to this 900 mg. I'll check which version I'm taking but I don't think it matters as such for my use as a preventative for heart health.
Susan - 25 Aug 2009 16:52 GMT > Interesting that they are alternate forms of vitamin B5 yet they > have such different results. Doctor Atkins recommended B-5 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but I don't think it matters as such for my use as a preventative > for heart health. Dr. Atkins recommended and manufactured pantethine, 450 mg, the only such product with that dosage and now it's gone.
It absolutely matters which it is, depending on your goals. Pantethine reverses the adrenal insufficiency that leads your body to overproduce LDL to compensate, hence it's LDL lowering while raising HDL, and contribution to better health overall.
See if you can provide efficacy and safety studies for the same effects for B5.
Susan
DJ Delorie - 25 Aug 2009 17:53 GMT > Dr. Atkins recommended and manufactured pantethine, 450 mg, the only > such product with that dosage and now it's gone. 600mg : http://www.netrition.com/now_pantethine.html
Susan - 25 Aug 2009 17:56 GMT >> Dr. Atkins recommended and manufactured pantethine, 450 mg, the only >> such product with that dosage and now it's gone. > > 600mg : http://www.netrition.com/now_pantethine.html Too high.
At least with the 300 mg, you could get to the 900 per day recco.
And Atkins made gel caps.
Susan
DJ Delorie - 25 Aug 2009 18:18 GMT > Too high. > > At least with the 300 mg, you could get to the 900 per day recco. Maybe you could take two caps one day, and one the next? Like, one cap every 16 hours? Breakfast, supper, lunch the next day, etc?
Better than just not taking it at all.
http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Pantethine-From-Pantesin http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Pantethine-450-mg-60-Softgels/121?at=0 http://www.houseofnutrition.com/ompali4560.html
Googled for "pantethine 450mg"
300mg: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013OXA4K http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Pantethine-300-mg-60-Softgels/333?utm_source=g&ut m_medium=x&at=0 http://www.amazon.com/Pantesin-Pantethine-300-60-Sgels/dp/B00068JQ2Y
Susan - 25 Aug 2009 18:43 GMT > Maybe you could take two caps one day, and one the next? Like, one > cap every 16 hours? Breakfast, supper, lunch the next day, etc? Actually, I had to give them up, mostly. Over stimulated my already cyclically overstimulated HPA axis. It provides the material for manufacture of adrenal steroids.
Susan
Doug Freyburger - 26 Aug 2009 15:36 GMT > > I will definately check into the pantothenic acid. I have seen those on > > the shelf near the vitamins, but had no clue what they were for. > > NOT pantothenic acid, it MUST be PANTETHINE, usually 300 mg 3x per day. > Not the same thing, not the same effects. Thanks Susan for the advice applied to using it as a preventative for heart health. I checked and the type I have been taking is pantothenic acid not pantethine. I will get pantethine the next time I'm at a vitamin specialty place and switch.
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