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Good bye and good riddance to diets

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Da Grand Poobah - 25 Aug 2009 19:08 GMT
So long low carb, so long calorie counting and don't let the door hit
you on the fat a.s on the way out.

I won't bother to repeat the all too familiar story of losing weight
and gaining that and a bit more back.  I've finally "discovered" the
solution that every last single one of you reading this knows deep
down in your heart.

All "diets" fail.  Short of stapling your stomache, a life-style
change is the ONLY solution to being a porker (and I would submit that
stapling IS a life-style change).

Since my doctor gave me the straight dope that I had better do
something about my weight and cholestorol or I won't live another 5
years, I've taken the plunge and am positive that I'm on the road to
wellness.  My "solution" is pretty damned simple.

A daily personal trainer -- and I'm not talking about the kind at the
gym.  Having someone to discuss with you what you ate on a daily basis
is empowering.  Of course you think you probably already know what
foods you should and shouldn't be eating.  But that is "diet"
thinking.  With someone to act as a soundboard, you can help develop
positve strategies that work for YOU.  For me it is keeping plenty of
fruits and other healthy snacks around so that I have good options and
don't have to revert to poor ones.  It is also good to have someone to
council about not depriving yourself.  Go ahead, eat that slice of
pizza when you go out tonight!  Just try and eat a healthy snack
BEFORE doing it so you limit yourself to one slice etc.

Say F U to dieting.
FOB - 25 Aug 2009 20:34 GMT
Low Carb eating is a change in life style.

| So long low carb, so long calorie counting and don't let the door hit
| you on the fat a.s on the way out.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
|
| Say F U to dieting.
Steve - 26 Aug 2009 10:07 GMT
> So long low carb, so long calorie counting and don't let the door hit
> you on the fat a.s on the way out.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Say F U to dieting.

Yawn.  Make sure to check back in 6 months from now and let us know how much
you have lost.

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Steve

Orlando Enrique Fiol - 26 Aug 2009 11:01 GMT
>Yawn.  Make sure to check back in 6 months from now and let us know how much
>you have lost.

What if losing weight is not this poster's utmost priority?

Orlando
Steve - 26 Aug 2009 15:35 GMT
>> Yawn.  Make sure to check back in 6 months from now and let us know how
>> much
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Orlando

I doubt if losing weight is anyone's utmost priority.

Signature

Steve

Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Aug 2009 01:01 GMT
>I doubt if losing weight is anyone's utmost priority.

You and others make it seem as though any sacrifice or deprivation is
compensated by weight loss. I'm suggesting that there are other ways of
balancing weight loss with aesthetic pleasure and enjoyment in food.

Orlando
Cheri - 27 Aug 2009 02:54 GMT
>>I doubt if losing weight is anyone's utmost priority.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Orlando

What sacrifice and deprivation are you talking about?

Cheri
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Aug 2009 04:29 GMT
>What sacrifice and deprivation are you talking about?

The consumption of carbs, silly. Many of you may be so hooked on LC that you
never think about the foods you no longer eat. Although I rarely crave them and
don't eat them all the time, I do not envision myself ever giving them up
permanently. Still, there are days when I wish I could eat normally, enjoying
anything I find delicious without concern for how many carbs I've already had
that day. At those moments, I usually decide to stick to my plan while feeling
deprived.

Orlando
Cheri - 27 Aug 2009 05:06 GMT
>>What sacrifice and deprivation are you talking about?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Orlando

OK, I do eat normally everyday. YMMV

Cheri
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Aug 2009 06:05 GMT
>OK, I do eat normally everyday. YMMV

Please don't get me wrong; I know that my body needs me to eat LC in order to
lose weight and stay healthy. I'm just saying that in order to accomplish these
things, I have to ignore many of my cultural associations with food and eat
somewhat abnormally. Sometimes, that feeling of eating too differently from how
I wish I could is overwhelming. At those times, I sometimes choose to eat
whatever I want at the expense of my weight loss. We should try and feel
compassion for people who have trouble simply changing their diet because it
makes sense for their bodies. People eat different foods for a host of reasons.
While there are some food addicts out here who should never be let loose with
any carbs, some of us wish we could at least sometimes eat normally.

Orlando
Hakan - 27 Aug 2009 07:46 GMT
>> OK, I do eat normally everyday. YMMV

> compassion for people who have trouble simply changing their diet because it
> makes sense for their bodies. People eat different foods for a host of reasons.
>
> While there are some food addicts out here who should never be let loose with
> any carbs, some of us wish we could at least sometimes eat normally.

This groups is all about having compassion. The people in here try to
help as they can, but the theme of the group is to help people do what
is best for them rather than what the "norms" tell them to. Where do you
believe that those norms come from?

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Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Aug 2009 08:30 GMT
> This group is all about having compassion. The people in here try to
>help as they can, but the theme of the group is to help people do what
>is best for them rather than what the "norms" tell them to. Where do you
>believe that those norms come from?

Those norms are partially formed by an industrial complex intent on keeping us
dependent on mass produced, heavily refined, sodium and sugar-laden products.
Some people's norms come from disfunctional relationships with food that
include eating for approval or emotional comfort, all the while feeling ashamed
of it. But, the important cause for these norms is cultural. Just think of how
many cultures' foods are dramatically altered by a low-carb diet. Japanese
foods, often pungent or salty, no longer get the balancing benefit of rice or
noodles. Rich Indian curries are now supposed to be consumed as is, without
rice or bread. And what to do with Mexican foods, with tortillas as a staple?
Fact is, the low-carb diet is only "natural" to northern people in cold
climates. Nearly every other culture on earth regularly consumes carbs, and all
those billions of people are not obese. So, how do they do it? Many simply
don't get enough to eat, which unfortunately keeps them malnourished but
skinny. Many others eat much smaller portions than Westerners, or they eat rich
foods packed with enough flavor to satisfy without binge eating.

Lest I digress on an excessive tangent, what I'm saying is that food is not
like drug or alcohol addiction in the sense that the body cannot live without
it. So, it is clearly ineffective to chastise people for falling off their
personal wagons when their culture is telling them to eat carbs. If carbs were
so natural to give up, people wouldn't lose a bunch of weight on one or many LC
plans, only to regain it. Bottom line, people regain weight upon returning to
their beloved foods and old eating habits. People who maintain ongoing weight
loss with LC either forgo all their carb cravings or learn how to balance
moderate carbs with low-carb options and physical exercise.

I guess I'm trying to remind some of the hard liners that it's just plain hard
to do this, and I'm aware of the standard tough-love lines I'll probably get in
response. What such intolerant people refuse to understand is that many aspects
of life give humanity a sense of meaning and purpose. Some people's identity
and happiness revolve around food. I've found that people who eat to live have
better success on all manner of diets, as opposed to people who live to eat.
Since most diets limit or forbid one or another common food group, it's hard
for people to stay on diets when they feel deprived and watch everyone around
them eating whatever they want. Of course, at some point, every overweight
person gets clear physical messages that they can no longer continue eating as
before. Had I not arrived at such a juncture, I wouldn't have started South
beach last February. But, as I read through South Beach and other low-carb
cookbooks, the differences between LC and "normal" eating are unmistakable.
Anyone who claims that LC eating is normal need only study different cultures'
foods. Cultures develop their diets based on what grows in the climate or
what's affordable on a regular basis. Born into complex cultures and societies,
people's culinary identities are wrapped up in their culture's eating habits.
So, when some of you jump down people's throats for modifying their chosen LC
plans or eating carbs in moderation, please remember that some people are
unwilling to give up food and culture for weight loss.

Orlando
Steve - 27 Aug 2009 09:25 GMT
[snip]

> Lest I digress on an excessive tangent

Too late :-)

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Steve

Kate XXXXXX - 27 Aug 2009 11:06 GMT
>> OK, I do eat normally everyday. YMMV
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Orlando

I sometimes wish that.  It's a bugger having to avoid fats, red meat,
black coffee, red wine, red meats, too much wheat, grapefruit, fruit
juices, chocolate (except in small quantities), and sugar.  Mostly I
feel irritated rather than deprived, especially when trying to eat out.
 About the only thing I crave occasionally is bread.

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Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Aug 2009 11:18 GMT
>I sometimes wish that.  It's a bugger having to avoid fats, red meat,
>black coffee, red wine, red meats, too much wheat, grapefruit, fruit
>juices, chocolate (except in small quantities), and sugar.

Finally! A post from an actual, ordinary human being who recognizes that eating
this way is difficult and counterintuitive!

>Mostly I feel irritated rather than deprived, especially when trying to eat
out.

I hate calling attention to myself by being the one on a diet, especially when
I'd give anything to eat normally.

>  About the only thing I crave occasionally is bread.

I fortunately don't crave bread very often and have gone months without wanting
it.

Orlando
Kate XXXXXX - 27 Aug 2009 11:43 GMT
>> I sometimes wish that.  It's a bugger having to avoid fats, red meat,
>> black coffee, red wine, red meats, too much wheat, grapefruit, fruit
>> juices, chocolate (except in small quantities), and sugar.
>
> Finally! A post from an actual, ordinary human being who recognizes that eating
> this way is difficult and counterintuitive!

Instinct is a little of everything.  Socialization is try before you
reject, and eat whatever your hosts give you.  Reality is that I have to
TELL hosts what I cannot eat before I let them cook for me, which, to
me, is a manefestation of extreme bad manners.  But if I don't, I get
ill - painfully, quickly, and very unpleasantly, and it takes weeks to
sort myself out again!

>> Mostly I feel irritated rather than deprived, especially when trying to eat
> out.
>
> I hate calling attention to myself by being the one on a diet, especially when
> I'd give anything to eat normally.

Yup.  But at least I don't have my sister's problems: she has to avoid
all gluten, all but a teaspoonful of oils like olive per day, and
lactose... plus red meat, red wine, coffee, all spirits, and a pile of
other stuff.  Going away for a three day conference taxed the conference
kitchens to failure point.  In what way is a cheese sandwich lactose and
gluten free, and low fat?

My goddaughter is allergic to all fruits of the prunus family: apples,
pears, peaches, apricots, etc.  She CAN eat almonds, but NOT pickled
walnuts.  And she can eat them all cooked!

I have a friend who could be hospitalized by eating something cut with a
knife used to cut a chilli and then wiped rather than diswasher washed.
 And this one is allergic to antihistimines as well!  Now THAT's hard!

>>  About the only thing I crave occasionally is bread.
>
> I fortunately don't crave bread very often and have gone months without wanting
> it.

Oh, lucky you!  Luckily, I can manage a bit, but I know it if I go over
my innards-imposed limit!

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Doug Freyburger - 27 Aug 2009 14:38 GMT
> I fortunately don't crave bread very often and have gone months without wanting
> it.

Written that way it shows you've never had a craving.  It also
suggests why your comments about low carbing are so
insanely alternating between clueless and matter-of-fact
book-citing.  There is no relationship between craving a food
and wanting a food.  One is a physical urge that can only be
resolved by physical means that does not go away with
distractions and that is not specific until a food that
addresses it is tasted.  The other is a mental desire that can
be distracted and that can be anywhere from broad to
specific.

Folks who've never tried to resolve a craving to make it go
away might never learn the difference and they tend to
conclude they are overeaters for some other reason.  Folks
who've never had a craving are unlikely to learn the difference.

I'm wheat intolerant in a way that triggers cravings.  If I have
no wheat (exact threshold determined by level of avoidance
in recent years but always a lot smaller than one bite of
bread) for more than a week then the cravings are a
temptation that is always lurking in the background to
ambush me but never active.  If I take the first bite then I
crave it like the addict that I am and it takes much effort to
turn the craving back off again.  If I'd never gone on Atkins I
would never have learned how to turn it off.

But none of that is the same as wanting wheat.  I don't want
to eat poison.  And none of it is the same as missing wheat.
When I finally learned what wheat was doing to me my attitude
towards it changed completely and forever.  But my body is
always ready to reactivate those cravings so the temptation
is always there.  And the social pressure to eat poison is
endless.
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Aug 2009 15:28 GMT
>Written that way it shows you've never had a craving.  It also
>suggests why your comments about low carbing are so
>insanely alternating between clueless and matter-of-fact
>book-citing.

It's hard to discuss this stuff with you when you take such a superior, self
righteous tone. I may not be a medical doctor, but Penn's PhD ethnomusicology
program thinks I have a working brain. I've also low-carbed for months and even
years at a time. I know what I'm talking about.

>There is no relationship between craving a food
>and wanting a food.

Of course there is. Both manifest themselves as desires; one is physical, while
the other is psychological. But, they feel equally real.

>One is a physical urge that can only be
>resolved by physical means that does not go away with
>distractions and that is not specific until a food that
>addresses it is tasted.

That is patently false. Almost all low-carb plans are built on the premise that
enough protein consumption, coupled with reduced or eliminated carb intake,
will eliminate physical cravings. Put more simply, the more protein and fat you
eat, the less you'll crave carbs.

>The other is a mental desire that can be distracted and that can be anywhere
from broad to specific.

Whether cravings are physical or psychological, the decision to satisfy or
substitute them is a tangible choice.

>Folks who've never tried to resolve a craving to make it go
>away might never learn the difference and they tend to
>conclude they are overeaters for some other reason.

I entirely agree. I don't get anymore cravings for carbs; my desires to partake
of them are purely psychological and cultural.

>Folks who've never had a craving are unlikely to learn the difference.

Part of the problem, as I've been saying all along, relates to how people
conceive of normal eating. In American culture, it's normal to eat carbs at
every meal and to snack on them throughout the day. It's considered normal to
try and satiate persistent hunger with carbs. Our entire public culinary
culture is based on that principle. Consider what caterers typically provide
for business meetings and functions, what most restaurants provide before meals
and what most vending machines stock. Of course, the hyperinsulin person
eventually figures out or is hopefully informed that eating carbs to quell
persistent hunger is like chasing a shadowy dragon; the carbs never actually do
the trick, perpetuating a vicious cycle in which the body only feels satisfied
for a short period and wants more carbs. Most people don't realize this. Most
people's friends and families don't realize this. When people overeat, it's
primarily because they're looking to food to satisfy a deep-seeded hunger. That
hunger may have nothing to do with food, as when it's truly a hunger for
emotional security or validation through food. However, as you say, that hunger
is often entirely physiological. Most people simply don't comprehend the
principle that most persistent physical hunger can only be satisfied with
protein and fat because it takes the body a longer time to metabolize them.

>I'm wheat intolerant in a way that triggers cravings.  If I have
>no wheat (exact threshold determined by level of avoidance
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>crave it like the addict that I am and it takes much effort to
>turn the craving back off again.

I honestly cannot think of any similar relationship I have to an entire food
group. Hispanic that I am, I've gone weeks and months without white rice, most
times either not eating it at all or substituting brown rice. I don't crave
wheat in any form. If I don't eat bread or pasta for months, I don't feel
deprived as long as no one around me is eating these foods.

>If I'd never gone on Atkins I would never have learned how to turn it off.

If I'd never gone on South Beach or Atkins before it, I too would have never
learned that I could live without feeling hungry all the time and eating too
much in order to satisfy that hunger.

>But none of that is the same as wanting wheat.  I don't want
>to eat poison.  And none of it is the same as missing wheat.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>is always there.  And the social pressure to eat poison is
>endless.

See, here's where we disagree. I don't look upon home made, relatively
unrefined carbs as poison. Poison is something that harms anyone who goes near
it. If millions or even billions of people can maintain normal weight eating
carbs, they must not be poison to those people and probably not even poisonous
to me. You're right that there's always social pressure to eat carbs, but it's
not a sinister plot to poison the carb-intolerant; it's simply how our culture
is set up. People consider it entirely normal to eat carbs in a way that they
would not consider alcohol or tobacco. Just think about how people continue
eating carbs long after they've given up drinking and smoking. Think about how
nearly every food plan except LC, from veganism to macrobiotics, is based
around carbs. The tendency to eat carbs, as I've said before, arises in
agrarian societies that use grains, legumes, fruits and vegetables as staples.
Surely, people couldn't have been poisoning themselves for millennia eating
that way. That brings us to the question: How has normal carbohydrate
consumption become toxic, poisonous and addictive for so many people? Part of
the answer is of course that different people have different genetic and
metabolic predispositions. But, part of the problem is indeed cultural.

The mainstream American diet is full of meat and carbohydrates; just ask an LC
vegetarian what they endure every day. Until our culture shifts away from the
model of hunger satiety with carbs, we will always feel incredible pressure to
eat carbs, especially in social settings. Writing off all those settings as
poisonous may help you stay on plan, but that model doesn't work for me. I want
to eat carbs with every meal, but my body can't handle it. I'd rather eat real
desserts than sugar free ones. I often would rather eat rice than salad. I'd
often rather drink fruit juice than plain water, diet soda or Crystal Light.
But, I choose LC alternatives because my metabolism and hyperinsulinism have
left me no choice.

Orlando
Cheri - 27 Aug 2009 16:16 GMT
>>OK, I do eat normally everyday. YMMV
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Orlando

I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but
being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that
I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I
do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more
cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle.
Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived
these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what
you're saying.

Cheri
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 28 Aug 2009 03:42 GMT
>I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but
>being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what
>you're saying.

Thanks for understanding. Most times, I don't eat that stuff either and don't
feel deprived if I'm alone. But, get me around people who are eating what I
wish I could and I start feeling miserable.

Orlando
Billy - 28 Aug 2009 06:02 GMT
> >I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but
> >being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Orlando

I can see the light. Lucky me. If you come over to me, you can see the
light too. Aren't I great?
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Doug Freyburger - 28 Aug 2009 17:00 GMT
> I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but
> being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that
> I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I
> do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more
> cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle.

One of the reasons I am a fan of Atkins more than other
popular low carb plans is it is fully cutomized.  Early on it
starts out very cautious and stresses that one bite does
hurt because early on folks still getting over their early
cravings do get set back by a single bite.  Then as you
move through the 4 phases it gets more generous and
what you eat is based on how your own body reacts to
each food added back.  If you add back some very carby
food and your body reacts poorly to that level of carbs you
pull back a bit and settle in using that level.  If you add
back some very carby food and your body reacts well to
that level of carbs you keep adding until you find your
own personal limit.

> Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived
> these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what
> you're saying.

It's very easy to refuse to try carby foods because you're
too cautious.  It's very easy to keep adding carby foods
because you've put yourself back into the vicious cycle and
end up off the plan.  The fact that there's a process to learn
how to tune your own food doesn't mean it's easy to actually
figure it out.

If anyone ever finds a system that's hard to fall off of they will
be a billionaire.  Right now the best we have is types of plan
that specific people find easy to stay on.  The best of the
best are the ones that customize to each individual.
Susan - 28 Aug 2009 17:18 GMT
> One of the reasons I am a fan of Atkins more than other
> popular low carb plans is it is fully cutomized.

As are the other plans, except for the Zone, which isn't actually low
carb.

Susan
Doug Freyburger - 28 Aug 2009 17:39 GMT
> > One of the reasons I am a fan of Atkins more than other
> > popular low carb plans is it is fully cutomized.
>
> As are the other plans, except for the Zone, which isn't actually low
> carb.

Your anti-Atkins bias is coming out again.

So on Protein Power you can end up eating several times
as many carb grams as someone else because of how
your body reacts?  Nope.  PP has carb levels determined
by what works for most not based on what works for each
individual.

So on Carbohydrate Addicts Diet you can end up eating
several times as many carb grams as someone else because
of how your body reacts?  Nope.  CAD has menu classes
that are used based on individual results but the classes
aren't that different.

So on Weight Watchers you can end up eating twice as
many exchanges as someone else because of your results
compared to theirs?  Nice to have such a fully customized
place available!

I need to read South Beach far more carefully to find out
how it's fully customized as in two different people can follow
the same directions and end up eating dramatically different
foods based on their own body's reactions.

Following the Atkins directions to find CCLL and CCLM
definitely has people eating dramatically different carb levels.
CCLLs may cluster near the 50 grams net used for everyone
by PP but I've encountered folks who have to stay under 15
and folks who can eat over 100 grams while in phase 2.  It's
part of why the question "What is low carb" keeps coming up -
It means different gram counts for different people.
Susan - 28 Aug 2009 18:09 GMT
> Your anti-Atkins bias is coming out again.

I've never been opposed to the Atkins plan; just his lack of scientific
rigor in his prounouncements and his marketing of junk food in the past.

Your Atkins or die bias is always in evidence.

> So on Protein Power you can end up eating several times
> as many carb grams as someone else because of how
> your body reacts?

  Nope.  PP has carb levels determined
> by what works for most not based on what works for each
> individual.

No, PP is fully customizable, and you end up eating as many carbs as you
tolerate without weight gain or stall or health problems.  The Eades
address health and metabolism with scientific rigor.  They address the
drop in active T3 hormone from the lowest carb phase, too.

> So on Carbohydrate Addicts Diet you can end up eating
> several times as many carb grams as someone else because
> of how your body reacts?  Nope.  CAD has menu classes
> that are used based on individual results but the classes
> aren't that different.j

CAD is dead, isn't it?  It was a seriously bad idea.  But yeah, you can
eat a LOT of carb grams at dinner, individually determined.

> So on Weight Watchers you can end up eating twice as
> many exchanges as someone else because of your results
> compared to theirs?  Nice to have such a fully customized
> place available!

WW is low carb?

Susan
Kate XXXXXX - 29 Aug 2009 00:04 GMT
>> So on Weight Watchers you can end up eating twice as
>> many exchanges as someone else because of your results
>> compared to theirs?  Nice to have such a fully customized
>> place available!

No exchanges on WW these days.  In fact, not in all the years I've
followed it.  You must be remembering a very old program.

> WW is low carb?

It can be if you want it to be.  I work best on a low wheat but
otherwise well ballanced mix of carbs and fresh veg with small portions
of meat and cheese and medium portions of fish.

Low carb isn't really a sensible option for us with a growing lad and a
type 1 diabetic, and an inability on my part to wish to cook 3 different
meals each evening.

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Orlando Enrique Fiol - 28 Aug 2009 20:41 GMT
>I need to read South Beach far more carefully to find out
>how it's fully customized as in two different people can follow
>the same directions and end up eating dramatically different
>foods based on their own body's reactions.

It's very possible; Agatston's recipes bear this out.

>Following the Atkins directions to find CCLL and CCLM
>definitely has people eating dramatically different carb levels.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>part of why the question "What is low carb" keeps coming up -
>It means different gram counts for different people.

During the first month on South Beach, I attended a few school-related
functions where I experimented with various kinds of carbs and found that none
of them stalled my weight loss. For me, it's more a question of frequency than
carb type. I can eat about anything infrequently.

Orlando
Kate XXXXXX - 27 Aug 2009 10:51 GMT
>> I doubt if losing weight is anyone's utmost priority.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Orlando
Ah, just like Weight Watchers, then...

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Orlando Enrique Fiol - 27 Aug 2009 11:16 GMT
>Ah, just like Weight Watchers, then...

I personally don't eat that way, but I can see how it's ideal for people who
simply don't want to go for intended carbless periods.

Orlando
Kate XXXXXX - 27 Aug 2009 11:21 GMT
>> Ah, just like Weight Watchers, then...
>
> I personally don't eat that way, but I can see how it's ideal for people who
> simply don't want to go for intended carbless periods.
>
> Orlando

Nice thing is that you can pick and choose what you want, but it
encourages a healthy balance, coupled with exercise.  Works for anyone
with no dietry problems, and pretty well for those of use who do have them.

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Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.katedicey.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

 
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