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Protein requirements; excellent article

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Susan - 14 Nov 2009 17:58 GMT
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2666737/

Excellent review of the role and need for maintenance of more adequate
dietary protein.

Importantly, the authors point out that as calories go down, protein
consumption must not decline.

"Dietary Guidelines for Americans provide nutrition advice aimed at
promoting healthy dietary choices for life-long health and reducing risk
of chronic diseases. With the advancing age of the population, the 2010
Dietary Guidelines confront increasing risks for age-related problems of
obesity, osteoporosis, type 2 diabetes, Metabolic Syndrome, heart
disease, and sarcopenia. New research demonstrates that the meal
distribution and amount of protein are important in maintaining body
composition, bone health and glucose homeostasis. This editorial reviews
the benefits of dietary protein for adult health, addresses omissions in
current nutrition guidelines, and offers concepts for improving the
Dietary Guidelines"
Wildbilly - 18 Nov 2009 21:51 GMT
While the article below is quite good, it should be noted that fruits
and vegetables, whole cereals, and fats are good for you as well. What
apparently aren't good for you are transfats, poly unsaturated fats, and
refined carbohydrates.

If you are going to eat more protein, you should see the movie "Food
Inc." in order to see where your meat comes from, and where it could
come from. We may eat meat, but we don't have to torture it before we
kill it.

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> current nutrition guidelines, and offers concepts for improving the
> Dietary Guidelines"
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³When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist.²
-Archbishop Helder Camara

http://tinyurl.com/o63ruj
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

Doug Freyburger - 18 Nov 2009 22:40 GMT
> ... it should be noted that fruits

I like fruits.  Especially cucumbers and tomatoes.

> and vegetables, whole cereals,

Every study about whole cereals has compared them against refined
cereals.  If you want to claim that grains are beneficial to human
health - independent of world economic issues that make them madatory
which isn't the same thing as beneficial to health - we need a study
that compares a diet with grain against a diet free of grain that puts
veggies in their place.  Needless to say no grain advocating scientist
is going to conduct such a study as the outcome is obvious but would be
disliked.

> and fats are good for you as well. What
> apparently aren't good for you are transfats, poly unsaturated fats, and
> refined carbohydrates.

Certain polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential.

> If you are going to eat more protein, you should see the movie "Food
> Inc." in order to see where your meat comes from, and where it could
> come from. We may eat meat, but we don't have to torture it before we
> kill it.

So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters who
sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
ranching and more spiritual an activity among any hunter in my family.
Susan - 19 Nov 2009 01:21 GMT
> So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters who
> sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
> ranching and more spiritual an activity among any hunter in my family.

I only buy grass fed, pastured beef, no grain or corn in feedlots.
Kinder to animals, healthier for us.

Susan
Roger Zoul - 19 Nov 2009 12:53 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Susan

The deers I see running loose around here, in the early am, must be grass
fed too and I sure wouldn't mind hunting them.  I don't think it would be
legal, though.
Wildbilly - 19 Nov 2009 21:12 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Susan

http://www.environnement.ens.fr/perso/claessen/agriculture/mistake_jared_
diamond.pdf
Signature

³When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist.²
-Archbishop Helder Camara

http://tinyurl.com/o63ruj
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

BlueBrooke - 19 Nov 2009 01:37 GMT
> So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters who
> sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
> ranching and more spiritual an activity among any hunter in my family.

It's deer season here and they closed the school on Monday and Tuesday
because of it.  So I guess you could say it's popular.  Gentle or
spiritual, though, not really.  These guys are bored with tin cans and
just want to shoot something that bleeds.  

I don't hunt, my guys don't, either, so we've no interest in it at
all.  And the last time I tried to eat venison . . . ugh.  I don't
"get it," but I understand that my neighbors do.  While I do wish they
were hunting to feed their families, most of them aren't.
Susan - 19 Nov 2009 02:16 GMT
> I don't hunt, my guys don't, either, so we've no interest in it at
> all.  And the last time I tried to eat venison . . . ugh.  I don't
> "get it," but I understand that my neighbors do.  While I do wish they
> were hunting to feed their families, most of them aren't.  

The thought of someone enjoying hunting or doing it for sport grosses me
out, but the reality of it isn't nearly as cruel as the life of feedlot
animals.  So I guess if hunters eat the meat, rather than waste the life
of an animal, I'm good with that.

But not with them enjoying it.

Susan
Roger Zoul - 19 Nov 2009 12:55 GMT
> x-no-archive: Yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> But not with them enjoying it.

I agree.  Don't kill something unless you plan to serve it up on a plate.
Then you can enjoy it.

That was my rule when I was into fishing on LA.  And there were always
people who would happily accept certain sea critters that I didn't enjoy
eating (barracuda comes to mind).
BlueBrooke - 19 Nov 2009 18:24 GMT
> I agree.  Don't kill something unless you plan to serve it up on a plate.
> Then you can enjoy it.
>
> That was my rule when I was into fishing on LA.  And there were always
> people who would happily accept certain sea critters that I didn't enjoy
> eating (barracuda comes to mind).

That was the rule when Dad took us fishing, too -- you catch it, you
eat it.  Unfortunately, I don't like fish much, but Dad insisted on
taking us fishing.  I didn't think that was quite fair.  :-)

But I didn't have to clean them.  :-)
Doug Freyburger - 19 Nov 2009 18:50 GMT
>>> I don't hunt, my guys don't, either, so we've no interest in it at
>>> all.  And the last time I tried to eat venison . . . ugh.  I don't
>>> "get it," but I understand that my neighbors do.  While I do wish they
>>> were hunting to feed their families, most of them aren't.

As hunting becomes less popular something's happening to the animals in
suburban and even urban areas - They are flourishing and losing their
fear of humans.

With coyotes who hunt at night and a so concealed many don't even know
they are their it doesn't matter.  I've seen 4 coyotes in suburban
Chicago in the last 6 years but I hear them constantly.  My Dad reports
that there are now few wild turkeys near his house.  Turkeys nest on the
ground and coyotes love turkey eggs.

Collisions between deer and cars have gotten so common there have been
police assigned to cull deer in some counties.  What a waste of venison
IMO.

Bears without fear of humans are a *very* bad idea.  Reports of bears in
suburbs are gradually becoming more common.  Not good news.

>> The thought of someone enjoying hunting or doing it for sport grosses me
>> out, but the reality of it isn't nearly as cruel as the life of feedlot
>> animals.  So I guess if hunters eat the meat, rather than waste the life
>> of an animal, I'm good with that.
>
>> But not with them enjoying it.

Sport is not inconsistent with a spiritual view of hunting.  I get that
someone not raised with hunting will not get that.  Sport is
enjoyment by way of taking joy in an experience.  Joy is a religious
thing.  But sport without eating what you kill is inconsistent with a
spiritual view of hunting.

I get that there are some hunters who do not view hunting as a spiritual
exercise.  I do not get them.  Never will.  In the stone ages human
religion evolved out of hunting practices so it should be so deep in
our blood we can't see it otherwise. And yet there are people who drink
and hunt.  It's like they aren't the same species as my family.  Aliens.

> I agree.  Don't kill something unless you plan to serve it up on a plate.
> Then you can enjoy it.

If you kill it, you eat it.  This is a very strict rule in my family.
The closest I've seen is hunting on a reservation where the hunter gets
a box of the meat and the tribe members get the rest of the meat.  But
waste a bite and I'm against it.

This is why I don't like fishing for northern pike.  If something goes
wrong and I can't catch and release because the fish swallowed the hook
and was too injured to return to the water, I will have to eat that
nasty tasting thing.

> That was my rule when I was into fishing on LA.  And there were always
> people who would happily accept certain sea critters that I didn't enjoy
> eating (barracuda comes to mind).
Wildbilly - 19 Nov 2009 21:11 GMT
> >>> I don't hunt, my guys don't, either, so we've no interest in it at
> >>> all.  And the last time I tried to eat venison . . . ugh.  I don't
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> > people who would happily accept certain sea critters that I didn't enjoy
> > eating (barracuda comes to mind).

http://www.environnement.ens.fr/perso/claessen/agriculture/mistake_jared_
diamond.pdf
Signature

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist."
-Archbishop Helder Camara

http://tinyurl.com/o63ruj
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

Walter Bushell - 23 Nov 2009 14:06 GMT
> x-no-archive: Yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Susan

Men are going to enjoy hunting, it in the genes. Even stalking the wild
mushroom.

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A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

Wildbilly - 19 Nov 2009 21:07 GMT
> > So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters who
> > sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "get it," but I understand that my neighbors do.  While I do wish they
> were hunting to feed their families, most of them aren't.  

Agreed, killing as sport is sick, but if you eat meat, somebody killed
it for you. We would probably eat less meat, if we had to kill our own.
Signature

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist."
-Archbishop Helder Camara

http://tinyurl.com/o63ruj
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

Doug Freyburger - 19 Nov 2009 21:32 GMT
> We would probably eat less meat, if we had to kill our own.

Societies that hunt for their meat tend to eat a higher percentage of
their calories from meat than a lot of modern cultures.  With the
existance of "modern" ideas (under 5K years old ;^) like vegitarian
eating the trend is the opposite of your suggestion.
Wildbilly - 20 Nov 2009 06:24 GMT
> > We would probably eat less meat, if we had to kill our own.
>
> Societies that hunt for their meat tend to eat a higher percentage of
> their calories from meat than a lot of modern cultures.  With the
> existance of "modern" ideas (under 5K years old ;^) like vegitarian
> eating the trend is the opposite of your suggestion.

You didn't read the article by Jared Diamond, did you? Hunter-gatherers
were healthier than we are, but then we have antibiotics and surgical
intervention and they didn't. Which has nothing to do with what we eat.
There isn't anything wrong with eating meat. As a species, we have been
doing it for a long time. Refined carbohydrates are about a hundred and
fifty years old, and they seem to be killing us.
Signature

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist."
-Archbishop Helder Camara

http://tinyurl.com/o63ruj
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

Doug Freyburger - 20 Nov 2009 17:01 GMT
>> > We would probably eat less meat, if we had to kill our own.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You didn't read the article by Jared Diamond, did you?

Standard issue rule for any on-line activity - Don't follow any URL you
didn't ask for unless there is enough quoted from it to know following
it will be safe from malware and through the reading effort.

When posting any URL never expect anyone to follow it without posting
enough exerp from it to justify folks follow the link. In a world of
spyware and computer viruses that's how it works. you did not post any
justification at all for following the link and you posted the link
more than once making it even more problematic.

So - Is that the Diamond of "Fit for Life"?  He has his good points and
bad points.  I think he's intolerant of milk proteins given his
vociferous objection to all dairy.  If I were intolerant of milk
proteins I might be a low fatter with an attitude against dairy.
Instead I'm wheat intolerant and an inconsistant low carber with an
attitude against viewing grass seeds as a necessary staple.

> Hunter-gatherers were healthier than we are,

Yet more reason to doubt any claim that eating grain is beneficial -
Societies that start eating grain as a staple see a large decrease in
health levels.  The reasons for grain are economic not medical.
Wildbilly - 21 Nov 2009 06:20 GMT
> >> > We would probably eat less meat, if we had to kill our own.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> didn't ask for unless there is enough quoted from it to know following
> it will be safe from malware and through the reading effort.
Whatever. This is a PDF from my own computer.

> When posting any URL never expect anyone to follow it without posting
> enough exerp from it to justify folks follow the link. In a world of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> So - Is that the Diamond of "Fit for Life"?  
Nooo, this is the Diamond of "Guns, Germs, and Steel".
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393038912/ref=
sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258784083&sr=1-1

> He has his good points and
> bad points.  I think he's intolerant of milk proteins given his
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Societies that start eating grain as a staple see a large decrease in
> health levels.  The reasons for grain are economic not medical.

"The Worst Mistake In The History Of The Human Race"
by Jared Diamond, Prof. UCLA School of Medicine
Discover-May 1987, pp. 64-66
To science we owe dramatic changes in our smug self-image. Astronomy
taught
us that our Earth isn't the center of the universe but merely one of
billions of heavenly
bodies. From biology we learned that we weren't specially created by God
but evolved
along with millions of other species. Now archaeology is demolishing
another sacred
belief: that human history over the past million years has been a long
tale of progress. In
particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of agriculture,
supposedly our
most decisive step toward a better life, was in many ways a catastrophe
from which we
have never recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
inequality, the
disease and despotism,that curse our existence.
At first, the evidence against this revisionist interpretation will
strike twentieth
century Americans as irrefutable. We're better off in almost every
respect than people of
the Middle Ages who in turn had it easier than cavemen, who in turn were
better off than
apes. Just count our advantages. We enjoy the most abundant and varied
foods, the best
tools and material goods, some of the longest and healthiest lives, in
history. Most of us
are safe from starvation and predators. We get our energy from oil and
machines, not
from our sweat. What neo-Luddite among us would trade his life for that
of a medieval
peasant, a caveman, or an ape?
For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and gathering:
we
hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants. It's a life that
philosophers have
traditionally regarded as nasty, brutish, and short. Since no food is
grown and little is
stored, there is (in this view) no respite from the struggle that starts
anew each day to find
wild foods and avoid starving. Our escape from this misery was
facilitated only 10,000
years ago, when in different parts of the world people began to
domesticate plants and
animals. The agricultural revolution gradually spread until today it's
nearly universal and
few tribes of hunter-gatherers survive.
From the progressivist perspective on which I was brought
up to ask "Why did almost all our hunter-gatherer ancestors adopt
agriculture?" is silly. Of course they adopted it because agriculture
is an efficient way to get more food for less work. Planted crops
yield far more tons per acre than roots and berries. Just imagine a
band of savages, exhausted from searching for nuts or chasing wild
animals, suddenly gazing for the first time at a fruit-laden orchard
or a pasture full of sheep. How many milliseconds do you think it
would take them to appreciate the advantages of agriculture?
The progressivist party line sometimes even goes so far as to
credit agriculture with the remarkable flowering of art that has taken
place over the past few thousand years. Since crops can be stored,
and since it takes less time to pick food from a garden than to find it
in the wild,
agriculture gave us free time that hunter-gatherers never had. Thus it
was agriculture that
enabled us to build the Parthenon and compose the B-minor Mass.
While the case for the progressivist view seems overwhelming, it's hard
to prove.
How do you show that the lives of people 10,000 years ago got better
when they
abandoned hunting and gathering for farming? Until recently,
archaeologists had to resort
to indirect tests, whose results (surprisingly) failed to support the
progressivist view.
Here's one example of an indirect test: Are twentieth century
hunter-gatherers really
worse off than farmers? Scattered throughout the world, several dozen
groups of socalled
primitive people, like the Kalahari Bushmen, continue to support
themselves that
way. It turns out that these people have plenty of leisure time, sleep a
good deal, and
work less hard than their farming neighbors. For instance, the average
time devoted each
week to obtaining food is only twelve to nineteen hours for one group of
Bushmen,
fourteen hours or less for the Hadza nomads of Tanzania. One Bushman,
when asked
why he hadn't emulated neighboring tribes by adopting agriculture,
replied, "Why should
we, when there are so many mongongo nuts in the world?"
While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
potatoes, the
mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
hunter-gatherers provides more
protein and a better balance of other nutrients. In one study, the
Bushmen's average daily
food intake (during a month when food was plentiful) was 2,140 calories
and ninety-three
grams of protein, considerably greater than the recommended daily
allowance for people
of their size. It's almost inconceivable that Bushmen, who eat
seventy-five or so wild
plants, could die of starvation the way hundreds of thousands of Irish
farmers and their
families did during the potato famine of the 1840s.
So the lives of at least the surviving hunter-gatherers aren't nasty and
brutish,
even though farmers have pushed them into some of the world's worst real
estate. But
modem huntergatherer societies that have rubbed shoulders with farming
societies for
thousands of years don't tell us about conditions before the
agricultural revolution. The
progressivist view is really making a claim about the distant past: that
the lives of
primitive people improved when they switched from gathering to farming.
Archaeologists can date that switch by distinguishing remains of wild
plants and animals
from those of domesticated ones in prehistoric garbage dumps.
How can one deduce the health of the prehistoric garbage makers, and
thereby
directly test the progressivist view? That question has become
answerable only in recent
years, in .part through the newly emerging techniques of paleopathology,
the study of
signs of disease in the remains of ancient peoples.
In some lucky situations, the paleopathologist has almost as much
material to
study as a pathologist today. For example, archaeologists in the Chilean
deserts founds
well preserved' mummies whose medical conditions at time of death could
be determined
by autopsy (Discover, October). And feces of long-dead Indians who lived
in dry caves in
Nevada remain sufficiently well preserved to be examined for hookworm
and other
parasites.
Usually the only human remains available for study are skeletons, but
they permit
a surprising number of deductions. To begin with, a skeleton reveals its
owner's sex,
weight, and approximate age. In the few cases where there are many
skeletons, one can
construct mortality tables like the ones life insurance companies use to
calculate expected
life span and risk of death at any given age. Paleopathologists can also
calculate growth
rates by measuring bones of people of different ages, examine teeth for
enamel defects
(signs of childhood malnutrition), and recognize scars left on bones by
anemia,
tuberculosis, leprosy, and other diseases.
One straightforward example of what paleopathologists have learned from
skeletons concerns historical changes in height. Skeletons from Greece
and Turkey show
that the average height of hunter-gatherers toward the end of the ice
ages was a
generous 5'9" for men, 5'5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture,
height
crashed, and by 3000 B.C. had reached a low of 5'3" for men ,5' for
women. By classical
times heights were very slowly on the rise again, but modern Greeks and
Turks have still
not regained the average height of their distant ancestors.
Another example of paleopathology at work is the study of Indian
skeletons from
burial mounds in the lllinois and Ohio river valleys. At Dickson Mounds,
located near the
confluence of the Spoon and lllinois rivers, archaeologists have
excavated some 800
skeletons that paint a picture of the health changes that occurred when
a hunter-gatherer
culture gave way to intensive maize farming around A.D. 1150. Studies by
George
Armelagos and his colleagues then at the University of Massachusetts
show these
early farmers paid a price for their new-found livelihood. Compared to
the huntergatherers
who preceded them, the farmers had a nearly fifty percent increase in
enamel
defects indicative of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in
iron-deficiency anemia
(evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a threefold
rise in bone
lesions reflecting infectious disease in general, and an increase in
degenerative conditions
of the spine, probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life
expectancy at birth in
the preagricultural community was about twenty-six years," says
Armelagos, "but in the
postagricultural community it was nineteen years. So these episodes of
nutritional stress
and infectious disease were seriously affecting their ability to
survive."
The evidence suggests that the Indians at Dickson Mounds, like many other
primitive peoples, took up farming not by choice but from necessity in
order to feed their
constantly growing numbers. " I don't think most hunter-gatherers farmed
until they
had to, and when they switched to farming they traded quality for
quantity." says Mark
Cohen of the State University of New York at Plattsburgh, co-editor,
with Armelagos, of
one of the seminal books in the field, Paleopathology at the Origins of
Agriculture.
"When I first started making that argument ten years ago, not many
people agreed with
me. Now it's become a respectable, albeit controversial, side of the
debate."
There are at least three sets of reasons to explain the findings that
agriculture was
bad for health. First, hunter-gatherers enjoyed a varied diet, while
early farmers obtained
most of their food from one or a few starchy crops. The farmers gained
cheap calories at
the cost of poor nutrition. (Today just three high-carbohydrate
plants--wheat, rice, and
corn--provide the bulk of the calories consumed by the human species,
yet each one is
deficient in certain vitamins or amino acids essential to life.) Second,
because of
dependence on a limited number of crops, farmers ran the risk of
starvation if one crop
failed. Finally, the mere fact that agriculture encouraged people to
clump together in
crowded societies, many of which then carried on trade with other
crowded societies, led
to the spread of parasites and infectious disease. (Some archaeologists
think it was
crowding, rather than agriculture, that promoted disease, but this is a
chicken-and-egg
argument, because crowding encourages agriculture and vice versa.)
Epidemics couldn't
take hold when populations were scattered in small bands that constantly
shifted camp.
Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise of farming,
measles and bubonic
plague the appearance of large cities.
Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming helped
bring
another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions. Hunter-gatherers have
little or no
stored food, and no concentrated food sources, like an orchard or a herd
of cows: they
live off the wild plants and animals they obtain each day. Therefore,
there can be no
kings, no class of social parasites who grow fat on food seized from
others. Only in a
farming population could a healthy, nonproducing elite set itself above
the disease-ridden
masses. Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c.1500 B.C. suggest that
royals enjoyed
a better diet than commoners, since the royal skeletons were two or
three inches taller and
had better teeth (on average, one instead of six cavities or missing
teeth). Among Chilean
mummies from c. A.D. 1000, the elite were distinguished not only by
ornaments and gold
hair clips but also by a fourfold lower rate of bone lesions caused by
disease.
Similar contrasts in nutrition and health persist on a global scale
today. To people
in rich countries like the U.S., it sounds ridiculous to extol the
virtues of hunting and
gathering. But Americans are an elite, dependent on oil and minerals
that must often be
imported from countries with poorer health and nutrition. If one could
choose between
being a peasant farmer in Ethiopia or a Bushman gatherer in the
Kalahari, which do you
think would be the better choice?
Farming may have encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well. Freed
from
the need to transport their babies during a nomadic existence, and under
pressure to
produce more hands to till the fields, farming women tended to have more
frequent
pregnancies than their hunter-gatherer counterparts-- with consequent
drains on their
health. Among the Chilean mummies, for example, more women than men had
bone
lesions from infectious disease.
Women in agricultural societies were sometimes made beasts of burden. In
New
guinea farming communities today, I often see women staggering under
loads of
vegetables and firewood while the men walk empty-handed. Once while on a
field
trip there studying birds, I offered to pay some villagers to carry
supplies from an
airstrip to my mountain camp. The heaviest item was a 11 O-pound bag of
rice, which I
lashed to a pole and assigned a team of four men to shoulder together.
When I eventually
caught up with the villagers, the men were carrying light loads, while
one small woman
weighing less than the bag of rice was bent under it, supporting its
weight by a cord
across her temples.
As for the claim that agriculture encouraged the flowering of art by
providing us
with leisure time, modem hunter-gathers have at least as much free time
as do farmers.
The whole emphasis on leisure time as a critical factor seems to me
misguided. Gorillas
have had ample free time to build their own Parthenon, had they wanted
to. While postagricultural
technological advances did make new art forms possible and preservation
of
art easier, great paintings and sculptures were already being produced
by hunter-gatherers
15,000 years ago, and were still being produced as recently as the last
century by such
hunter-gatherers as some Inuit and the Indians of the Pacific Northwest.
Thus with the advent of agriculture an elite became better off but most
people
became worse off. Instead of swallowing the progressivist party line
that we chose
agriculture because it was good for us, we must ask how we got trapped
by it despite its
pitfalls.
One answer boils down to the adage "Might makes right." Farming could
support
many more people than hunting, albeit with a poorer quality of life.
(Population densities
of hunter gatherers are rarely over one person per ten square miles,
while farmers average
100 time that.) Partly, this is because a field planted entirely in
edible crops lets one feed
far more mouths than a forest with scattered edible plants. Partly, too,
it's because
nomadic hunter-gatherers have to keep their children spaced at four-year
intervals by
extended nursing and other means, since a mother must carry her toddler
until it's old
enough to keep up with the adults. Because farm women don't have that
burden, they can
and often do bear a child every two years.
As population densities of hunter-gatherers slowly rose at the end of
the ice ages,
bands had to choose between feeding more mouths by taking the first
steps toward
agriculture, or else finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the
former solution,
unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the transient
abundance they
enjoyed until population growth caught up with increased food
production. Such bands
outbred and then drove off or killed the bands that chose to remain
hunter-gatherers,
because a hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy
hunter. It's not that
hunter-gatherers abandoned their life style, but that those sensible
enough not to abandon
it were forced out of all areas except the ones farmer didn't want.
At this point it's instructive to recall the common complaint that
archaeology is a
luxury, concerned with the remote past, and offering no lessons for the
present.
Archaeologists studying the rise of farming have reconstructed a crucial
stage at which
we made the worst mistake in human history. Forced to choose between
limiting
population or trying to increase food production, we chose the latter
and ended up with
starvation, warfare, and tyranny.
Hunter-gatherers practiced the most successful and longest lasting
lifestyle in
human history. In contrast, we're still struggling with the mess into
which agriculture has
tumbled us, and it's unclear whether we can solve it. Suppose that an
archaeologist who
had visited us from outer space where trying to explain human history to
his fellow
spacelings. He might illustrate the results of his digs by a twenty-four
hour clock on
which one hour represents 100,000 years of real past time. It the
history of the human
race began at midnight, then we would now be almost at the end of our
first day. We
lived as hunter-gatherers for nearly the whole of that day,from midnight
through dawn,
noon, and sunset. Finally, at 11:54 p.m., we adopted agriculture. As our
second midnight
approaches, will the plight of famine-stricken peasants gradually spread
to engulf us all? Or will
we somehow achieve those seductive blessings that we imagine behind
agriculture's glittering
facade and that have so far eluded us?
--------

I'm talking about refined carbohydrates (white flour, white rice, and
sugar). What are you talking about?
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Doug Freyburger - 23 Nov 2009 16:52 GMT
> I'm talking about refined carbohydrates (white flour, white rice, and
> sugar). What are you talking about?

White rice is a few thousand years old.  White flour is a result of
industrial milling invented under 300 years ago.  Large amounts of
refined sugar have been available for under 500 years and has exploded
in the last century.

The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
agriculture and how that led to poor health.  Thus the article is about
the ill effects of eating whole grain.

Looks to me like what I'm talking about is what the article states -
Refined carbs are only the most recent and most extreme feature but the
long term trend of ill health caused by whole grain is illustrated in
the article.

Interesting point - Agriculture has been pushing human evolution for
millenia.  That's a short time on evolutionary time scales but the
pressure has been immense.  Check the selective breeding implications in
the number of people who have died from the evolutionary pressures of an
agriculture based culture.  While humanity evolved during the stone ages
less than the 5 million years it takes to evolve an ideal diet, the
evolutionary pressure has been extreme since then.  The arguments for
adopting a paleolithic diet aren't as strong as some would like.  But
ten millenia is an evolutionarily short time span any ways.  The
arguments for a grain based diet are weaker still except for economic
reasons.
Susan - 23 Nov 2009 21:58 GMT
> The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
> agriculture and how that led to poor health.  Thus the article is about
> the ill effects of eating whole grain.

You realize that once a grain is milled into flour or cereal, it ceases
to be a whole grain?

> Looks to me like what I'm talking about is what the article states -
> Refined carbs are only the most recent and most extreme feature but the
> long term trend of ill health caused by whole grain is illustrated in
> the article.

This is why scientific historians refer to the "diseases of
civilization" diabetes and CVD.  Grains developed civilization, but at a
cost to health.

Susan
Doug Freyburger - 24 Nov 2009 16:53 GMT
>> The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
>> agriculture and how that led to poor health.  Thus the article is about
>> the ill effects of eating whole grain.
>
> You realize that once a grain is milled into flour or cereal, it ceases
> to be a whole grain?

I don't realize that because it was not true until recent centuries.

For millenia grain was tossed into the air to rid it of the husk and
what remained was fertile particles that have bran, endosperm and germ.
That is to say whole grain.  These whole grain particles were stone
ground by hand then allowed to rise and baked into bread within two
days.  Then for centuries the whole grains were ground using water
powered stone mills rather than hand ground.  Hand ground or water power
ground the result was still whole grain flour not refined flour so it
did not cease to be whole grain.  The problem with this fresh ground
whole grain flour is retaining the germ means the flour spoils in a few
days so milling needs to be local.

A couple of centuries ago a different kind of milling process was
invented.  This modern refining method separates the bran (which was
mostly fed to pigs until the oat bran crazy a few years ago), the
endosperm (which becomes the refined white flour that is so problematic)
and the germ (which is available dried in may stores).  The ground
endosperm starch is lower in nutrients but it also lasts *much* longer.
Refined grain is now milled in very large mills and shipped long
distances.  Before the refining process was invented the whole grin
flour would spoil in a few days.

The ill health effects resulted when argiculture was invented millenia
before refined milling was invented.  The ill effects accelerated
greatly when the refined milling process was invented.

>> Looks to me like what I'm talking about is what the article states -
>> Refined carbs are only the most recent and most extreme feature but the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> civilization" diabetes and CVD.  Grains developed civilization, but at a
> cost to health.

The article points out why agriculture eventually dominated the globe
replacing hunter-gatherer societies almost completely.  In spite  of the
ill health effects and the hard labor involved, argiculture allows more
people to live.  With large enough populations quantity *does* beat
quality.  Even with the lower mean and medians of agricultural societies
compared to hunter-gather societies the variance and total populations
ensure that there are more high production people in an agricultural
society than in a hunter gatherer society.  And so no hunter-gather
society has ever developed metal smelting and thus no hunter-gatherer
society has ever moved towards industrialization.

It's true that it was done on the backs of millenia of heavy labor
misery, but civilization has advanced to the point where many can now
eat better than people do in hunter-gather societies.  Over time the
percentage of the total world population in poverty shrinks.  The dream
that the total number will shrink becomes realistic as the percentage
continues to decline.  The dream that few will be poor remains a dream
but the direction is clear.  The question becomes whether human society
can pull that off.  Build hot houses and grow veggies.  Plant trees to
maintain forests.
Susan - 24 Nov 2009 17:09 GMT
>>> The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
>>> agriculture and how that led to poor health.  Thus the article is about
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> whole grain flour is retaining the germ means the flour spoils in a few
> days so milling needs to be local.

Once it's ground, no matter what's included or the method, it's flour,
or cereal, but not whole grain, which is a kernel type thing.

Susan
Walter Bushell - 25 Nov 2009 13:08 GMT
> I don't realize that because it was not true until recent centuries.
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> before refined milling was invented.  The ill effects accelerated
> greatly when the refined milling process was invented.

And when you grind even the best whole grain into flour, you raise the
glycemic index. IF you must eat wheat eat it as a cereal.

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Walter Bushell - 25 Nov 2009 13:12 GMT
> It's true that it was done on the backs of millenia of heavy labor
> misery, but civilization has advanced to the point where many can now
> eat better than people do in hunter-gather societies.

Can but for the most part do not. :[

I was talking with a friend the other day about organic grass finished
beef and he asked, "Isn't it expensive?"

Actually, the cost is in the range for cheese or virgin organic coconut
oil.

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Doug Freyburger - 25 Nov 2009 15:31 GMT
>> It's true that it was done on the backs of millenia of heavy labor
>> misery, but civilization has advanced to the point where many can now
>> eat better than people do in hunter-gather societies.

Year by year the percentage of humanity so deep in poverty they are
exposed to regular starvation drops.  Year by year the total human
population increases fast enough that the total number of people at or
near starvation increases.  As the percentage drops there's a point
where even with the total population increasing the number starving
drops.  I am hopeful that will happen in the next decade during the
regular economic up cycle that happens every decade.  If not this one
then the next one.  It's not an end to world hunger but it is a step
along the path to it.

> Can but for the most part do not. :[

Agreed and I'll reenforce it by adding a different sad face. :^(

Even among the cultures rich enough that almost none starve folks have
no idea what to eat.  This is as puzzling to me as folks who can't
glance at food and estimate what ingredients it was made from.

> I was talking with a friend the other day about organic grass finished
> beef and he asked, "Isn't it expensive?"

How much extra are folks willing to pay for organic?  For me it's some
extra but not a lot.  Maybe 10-15% more.

> Actually, the cost is in the range for cheese or virgin organic coconut
> oil.

Regular coconut oil at Super Walmart is a couple of dollars.  Fancy
extra virgin organic coconut oil at the fancy grocery is well over ten
dollars for the same amount.  When used as a cooking oil I can't tell
the two apart.  Am I missing something by buying the cheaper type that
appears to be targetted to the Hispanic market?
Walter Bushell - 03 Dec 2009 05:12 GMT
> Regular coconut oil at Super Walmart is a couple of dollars.  Fancy
> extra virgin organic coconut oil at the fancy grocery is well over ten
> dollars for the same amount.  When used as a cooking oil I can't tell
> the two apart.  Am I missing something by buying the cheaper type that
> appears to be targetted to the Hispanic market?

I suspect that it is hydrogenated or otherwise stepped on. Have you
tried a taste test. I shall have to look.

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Doug Freyburger - 03 Dec 2009 19:19 GMT
>> Regular coconut oil at Super Walmart is a couple of dollars.  Fancy
>> extra virgin organic coconut oil at the fancy grocery is well over ten
>> dollars for the same amount.  When used as a cooking oil I can't tell
>> the two apart ...
>
> Have you tried a taste test.

Sure.  I trimmed the quotes to make that clear.
Wildbilly - 25 Nov 2009 19:57 GMT
> >> The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
> >> agriculture and how that led to poor health.  Thus the article is about
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> distances.  Before the refining process was invented the whole grin
> flour would spoil in a few days.

Shelf Life of whole wheat flour: 6 months to one year in the freezer if
stored in tightly sealed plastic containers or if tightly wrapped. It
will keep for only a few months if stored in a cabinet.
http://www.recipetips.com/kitchen-tips/t--1039/flour-storage-guide.asp

> The ill health effects resulted when argiculture was invented millenia
> before refined milling was invented.  The ill effects accelerated
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> can pull that off.  Build hot houses and grow veggies.  Plant trees to
> maintain forests.

First, poverty.
Most of the people who have escaped extreme poverty
remain very poor by the standards of middle-income economies.
The median poverty line for developing countries in
2005 was $2.00 a day. The poverty rate for all developing
countries measured at this line fell from nearly 70 percent in
1981 to 47 percent in 2005, but the number of people living
on less than $2.00 a day has remained nearly constant at 2.5
billion. The largest decrease, both in number and proportion,
occurred in East Asia and Pacific, led by China. Elsewhere, the
number of people living on less than $2.00 a day increased,
and the number of people living between $1.25 and $2.00 a
day nearly doubled, to 1.18 billion.

Most countries these days are oligarchies, the government are just
charades and facades, be it Red China or the USA.

"Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their
wealth."
-Lucy Parsons

Part of their wealth is stock in Lockheed-Martin, Boeing Co., Raytheon
Corp., and other manufactures of American weapon systems that consume
one half of the world's military budget. Stay tuned. There should be a
war coming to a continent near you soon. (Venezuela would be my guess :O(

Meanwhile, back on the nutrition front, one of the interesting things
about white flour is that it attracts fewer insects and rats than whole
grain flour. (Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Tauber p.96)

Secondly, "Anything that raises blood sugar - in particular, the
consumption of refined and easily digestible carbohydrates - will
increase the generation of oxidants and free radicals; it will increase
the rate of oxidative stress and glycation,and the formation and
accumulation of  advanced glycation end products. his means thatanything
that raises blood sugar, by the logic of the carbohydrate hypothesis,
will lead to more atherosclerosis and heart disease, more vascular
disorders, and a pace of accelerated degeneration, even in those of us
who never become diabetic." (Ibid, p.194)

I agree with you about the consumption of fruit and vegetables, but
these are usually low in calories. The evils (lack of nourishment) of
the consumption of grains can be somewhat mitigated by eating whole
grains and whole grain flours, but (and this was a surprise to me) their
glycemic indexes are very similar. As a result, basing the diets on
grain (carbs), is akin to slow poisoning. Basing the diets on meat
requires more farmland (and I hopefully a major change in the model of
production).

It is estimated that cropland will need to be increased by the size of
Brazil, if we are to feed the 3 billion people who will be joining us by
2050.

We got ourselves a conundrum here. Anybody for mandatory birth control?
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Wildbilly - 24 Nov 2009 05:47 GMT
> > I'm talking about refined carbohydrates (white flour, white rice, and
> > sugar). What are you talking about?
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> arguments for a grain based diet are weaker still except for economic
> reasons.

OK, so you finally read the Jerod Diamond article.

Try reading the article again. The problem, IIRC, was the lack of
variety in the crops (nutrition) in the farmers diets, occupying the
same area over a period of time, population density, which in turn gave
rise to communicable diseases (There are reasons why we refer to bird
flu and swine flu.), and the rise of government with its' establishment
of the hierarchy of social classes (the hunters and gatherers being
egalitarian).

IIRC, in the early 20's a study was done on cadavers of people who died
from accidents, that came to a N.Y. morgue. Most of them showed signs of
arteriosclerosis, but that isn't what they died from. I'll look up the
citation over the Thanksgiving break.

Sugar cane workers consume the most sugar of any demographic, and show
little sign of CVD, but they work like burros.

My points were that the elite of Egypt were the most likely to have a
sweet diet, and as the article stated, there is no way to know if they
died because of heart disease.

Gotta go get some sleep now, but I'll be back.
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Wildbilly - 21 Nov 2009 05:52 GMT
> > We would probably eat less meat, if we had to kill our own.
>
> Societies that hunt for their meat tend to eat a higher percentage of
> their calories from meat than a lot of modern cultures.  With the
> existance of "modern" ideas (under 5K years old ;^) like vegitarian
> eating the trend is the opposite of your suggestion.

Doug, stop posturing, it isn't helping.

I am writing about whole grains verses refined grains.

As a species, we are omnivores. We eat what is available.

What do you have to say against saturated fats and/or meat as food?
I think vegetables are wonderful, and we should eat more of them,
BUT the calories aren't there. The calories are in fat, and grain. Fat
because it is energy dense, and grain because it is plentiful.

If you want to promote vegetarianism, fine. Like organic farming,
vegetarianism promotes many fine goals. But for me, at some point, I
have to say, I'm sorry Mr. Pig/Chicken, but you have had a good life, we
have had some good laughs, and you have had many children. I'm sorry Mr.
Pig/Chicken, but now I, and my family, must eat you. Sorry Mr.
Pig/Chicken. That, of course, is not the nightmarish way most of our
meat dies. See the movie "Food Inc."

I eat less meat because of it, but I eat meat. Don't think less of me
because of it. It is our tradition. It is in our genes.
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BlueBrooke - 20 Nov 2009 01:30 GMT
> > > So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters who
> > > sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Agreed, killing as sport is sick, but if you eat meat, somebody killed
> it for you. We would probably eat less meat, if we had to kill our own.

Yes, someone killed it for me.  Thank goodness.  There has always been
someone else to do that.  Thank goodness.  If all the feedlots were
shut down tomorrow, there would still be someone else to do that.  :-)
Wildbilly - 20 Nov 2009 06:17 GMT
> > > > So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters who
> > > > sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> someone else to do that.  Thank goodness.  If all the feedlots were
> shut down tomorrow, there would still be someone else to do that.  :-)

Hopefully, it would be a lot more humane than the nightmare that is
CAFO. See the movie.
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Wildbilly - 21 Nov 2009 05:25 GMT
> > > > So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters who
> > > > sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> someone else to do that.  Thank goodness.  If all the feedlots were
> shut down tomorrow, there would still be someone else to do that.  :-)

That could appear as hypocritical :O(
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BlueBrooke - 21 Nov 2009 05:44 GMT
> > > > > So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters who
> > > > > sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> That could appear as hypocritical :O(

Not sure how you arrived at that.  But then, I'm not sure how you come
to most of your conclusions.
Wildbilly - 21 Nov 2009 15:53 GMT
> > > > > > So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters
> > > > > > who
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Not sure how you arrived at that.  But then, I'm not sure how you come
> to most of your conclusions.  

Encouraging killing by proxy, so that you can avoid the messy details,
seems to me to be hypocritical, but you certainly aren't alone.
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Walter Bushell - 23 Nov 2009 14:13 GMT
In article
<wldbilly-155040.07530321112009@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au>,

> > > > > > > So hunting should be more popular.  Check.  There are bow hunters
> > > > > > > who
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Encouraging killing by proxy, so that you can avoid the messy details,
> seems to me to be hypocritical, but you certainly aren't alone.

Perhaps a license to buy meat should require so many hours working in
the slaughter house; this would be similar to food co-ops today. Likely
the slaughter houses would be less inhumane.

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Feranija - 19 Nov 2009 08:22 GMT
>> If you are going to eat more protein, you should see the movie "Food
>> Inc." in order to see where your meat comes from, and where it could
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
> ranching and more spiritual an activity among any hunter in my family.

Definately switching to pheasants game for this Christmas and
thaknsgivings in coming years, from a local game store. No farmed
animals in the there, provenly game.  From time to time some grouse
shows up there, rabbits all the time, we are fed up with turkeys and
leftovers days and days after thanksgiving every year.
Wildbilly - 19 Nov 2009 21:01 GMT
> > ... it should be noted that fruits
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> is going to conduct such a study as the outcome is obvious but would be
> disliked.
Not whole grains, Doug, refined grains, where, in the case of wheat
flour, 26 or more nutrients are removed with the germ and the bran and 5
are legislated back in, and voila, enriched flour.

> > and fats are good for you as well. What
> > apparently aren't good for you are transfats, poly unsaturated fats, and
> > refined carbohydrates.
>
> Certain polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential.
True, and others aren't. Polyunsaturated fats, like refined
carbohydrates are fairly new in the human diet, at least in the quantity
that they are now eaten. No previous culture has survived on a diet that
relied on polyunsaturated fats for their lipids, but many have that
relied on animal fat and protein.

Metabolism Syndrome (Western disease) with high blood pressure,
diabetes, heart disease, and cancer seems to always manifest itself when
a culture takes on the western diet.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyunsaturated_fat#Relation_to_cancer
 subheading "Relation to cancer". This is still contested but it's good
to be an informed consumer.

> > If you are going to eat more protein, you should see the movie "Food
> > Inc." in order to see where your meat comes from, and where it could
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> sing to their prey as the prey dies.  Hunting is more gentle than
> ranching and more spiritual an activity among any hunter in my family.
Should be, but nature is out of balance now. But, yes, wild animals
would be better for you than the poor tortured beasts that are raised
and slaughtered in Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations (CAFO). See
the movie "Food Inc."
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Doug Freyburger - 19 Nov 2009 21:47 GMT
>> > whole cereals,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> flour, 26 or more nutrients are removed with the germ and the bran and 5
> are legislated back in, and voila, enriched flour.

You don't appear to get what I wrote so i'll try again.

All current studies about whole grains -

Compare eating refined grains against eating whole grains, conclude
that eating whole grains is beneficial.  Since grains are common to both
groups the conclusion is far more limited than that.  It should be
phrased as "eating refined grains is harmful" not "eating whole grains
is beneficial".  There's no grain-free control group to establish that
bit.

The real way to decide if eating grain is beneficial -

Compare a grain-free diet against a whole-grain diet against a
refined-grain diet.  Anyone who studies nutrition will quickly
understand that the group that eats the most veggies wins, and that's
the grain-free group.

>> Certain polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> relied on polyunsaturated fats for their lipids, but many have that
> relied on animal fat and protein.

Animal fat is filled with polyunsaturates.  Especially common in fish
animals so any fishing culture ate them as far back as they go.  The "aq
uatic ape" theory of human evolution says that could be a very long time
ago.

Nuts are high in polyunsaturates.  Hunter gatherer societies often eat
nuts to the exclusion of meat when nuts are available.  Since nuts
appear in the African savannah people have been eating a lot of nuts for
longer than we'd be considered humans.

Refined carbs are a different story.  Honey has been available forever,
but only in quantity since bee keeping was started.  Other high carb
sources are even newer than that.  Fruits have been eaten for so far
back in evolution that our ancestors had tails back then, but those
fruits were not sweet enough to count as refined.

> Metabolism Syndrome (Western disease) with high blood pressure,
> diabetes, heart disease, and cancer seems to always manifest itself when
> a culture takes on the western diet.

Check out articles on Egyptian mummies.  They ate high grain diets and
they suffered from heart attacks and such.  Rather like western diets
the rich ancient Egyptians ate a lot of grain and a lot of meat.  Unlike
modern westerners refined grain had not yet been invented.  Mixed high
carb and high fat has been deadly for a very long time and refined
grains are not a mandatory part of the combination.
Wildbilly - 21 Nov 2009 05:23 GMT
> >> > whole cereals,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> understand that the group that eats the most veggies wins, and that's
> the grain-free group.

Since this feeding study is totally impractical, let me suggest a study
of cultures introduced into the western diet, and the medical changes
that followed it. Look for "Western disease" or Metabolic Syndrome".

> >> Certain polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential.
> >
> > True, and others aren't. Polyunsaturated fats, like refined
> > carbohydrates are fairly new in the human diet, at least in the quantity
> > that they are now eaten.
<< No previous culture has survived on a diet of polyunsaturated fats
for their lipids, but many have that relied on animal fat and protein.>>

> Animal fat is filled with polyunsaturates.  

> Especially common in fish
> animals so any fishing culture ate them as far back as they go.  The "aq
> uatic ape" theory of human evolution says that could be a very long time
> ago.

Huh?

> Nuts are high in polyunsaturates.  Hunter gatherer societies often eat
> nuts to the exclusion of meat when nuts are available.  Since nuts
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> carb and high fat has been deadly for a very long time and refined
> grains are not a mandatory part of the combination.

Is this going to be a game, or are you sober?

"Atherosclerosis is ubiquitous among modern day humans and, despite
difference in ancient and modern lifestyles, we found that it was rather
common in <<ancient Egyptians of high socioeconomic status>> (brackets
are mine) living as much as three millennia ago," said Gregory Thomas, a
cardiology professor at the University of California, Irvine.

"While we do not know whether atherosclerosis caused the demise of any
of the mummies in the study, we can confirm that the disease was present
in many of them," Thomas said.

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Ancient+Egyptians+knew+pain+heart+dise
ase/2237329/story.html

The ancient Egyptians, however, rarely suffered from the diseases the
western world knows best: cancer and heart disease. And that points out
one of the best reasons to study the diseases of the ancients, Dr.
Sullivan says. "Today we are very tied up with modern diseases like
coronary heart disease and cancer, which are really the products of the
fact that we actually live too long. But if you look at the rest of the
developing world, you are looking at infectious diseases that have been
around for millennia and that relate to the development of civilization."
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/pharaohs/secrets4.html

Most of us have some degree of arteriolosclerosis, few of us die from it.
To make your argument, you refer to the one segment of Egyptian society
who could have enjoyed honey dipped fruits and chicken, among other
dishes.

Enough already. Do you know of any cultures that have been exposed to
refined carbohydrates that hasn't developed Western "Metabolic Syndrome"?
Signature

Wildbilly
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/11/2009111483826384398.html
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

Walter Bushell - 23 Nov 2009 14:22 GMT
In article
<wildbilly-D2A320.21233720112009@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au>,

> Most of us have some degree of arteriolosclerosis, few of us die from it.
> To make your argument, you refer to the one segment of Egyptian society
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Enough already. Do you know of any cultures that have been exposed to
> refined carbohydrates that hasn't developed Western "Metabolic Syndrome"?

Gary Taubes speculates that fructose may be 90& of the problem in his
lecture at Dartmouth.

<http://dhslides.org/mgr/mgr060509f/f.htm>

worth investing an hour.

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