> ... digesting starch and digesting protein are not compatible.
> ... digesting fat does not interfere with either ...
>
> ... Switch the type of food you eat and if the change is large
> enough it can trigger several days of indigestion.
In article
<4890f7ae-289f-43e5-ac82-e4765d0de166@l19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> > ... digesting starch and digesting protein are not compatible.
> > ... digesting fat does not interfere with either ...
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> trigger fingers which I experience upon waking. Did you experience an
> increase in inflammation initially? Did it go away?
Be sure to eat plenty of veggies, and get your omega3 (fish oil,
purslane, ect). You may want to try an antiinflammatory tea as well
http://www.pfaf.org/database/search_use.php?K%5B%5D=antiinflammatory
What are you calling a low carb diet?

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jay - 02 Feb 2010 21:53 GMT
> What are you calling a low carb diet?
Fitday shows I am eating between 35 and 105g of carbs mostly from
veggies, about 50g of protein and the rest is mostly butter.
> Be sure to eat plenty of veggies, and get your omega3 (fish oil,
> purslane, ect). You may want to try an antiinflammatory tea as well
For some strange reason, when I have eaten canned salmon, it also
caused the cuticle areas on fingers to become sore. I'll have to retry
or else get some capsules.
Wildbilly - 03 Feb 2010 00:07 GMT
In article
<67cb462f-88bb-42df-93e7-98549bd495a5@h2g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
> > What are you calling a low carb diet?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> caused the cuticle areas on fingers to become sore. I'll have to retry
> or else get some capsules.
Omega3 (the reason to take fish oil) is/are anti-inflammatory.
Have you been seeing a doctor? That is where I would begin, a doctor and
an allergist.

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Doug Freyburger - 03 Feb 2010 16:20 GMT
> Fitday shows I am eating between 35 and 105g of carbs mostly from
> veggies,
Nice. Also sources like a half gram per egg and so on. All sorts of
stuff gets rounded down to say zero on the label. Those round-downs are
not going to make a significant change to the top of your intake, just
fun stuff about labelling laws.
At 35 you can have very large portions of low carb veggies. So much
califlower you can hardly eat it. A 105 that's portions of root
veggies. Root veggies don't have as much bulk on the plate and in the
stomach but they are at least as filling as the lower carb ones. When
starting very low, higher carb veggies are more calories so they are
more filling. At some point they get so high in carbs they end up
making us more hungry not less hungry so if you graph it it's a curve
not a line. Early on more is better; later on more is worse.
> about 50g of protein
Why did you decide to go that low in protein? One reason so many folks
stay up near 100 grams is there is little need to count animo acids
because the total has extra. At 50 it's time to look at amino acid
levels to make sure you're getting a full completment. Including some
eggs as your protein source likely handles that issue. Another reason
so many folks stay up near 100 is it's easier to do the cooking. In the
long run amount of effort matters.
> and the rest is mostly butter.
That's fine but I bet it will get boring after a while. Next time out
shopping maybe mix it up. Some olive oil, some nut oils. Maybe use
some coconut oil or lard in cooking. Maybe get some refrigerated flax
oil for use on salads. There's a tradeoff that extra variety is less
boring but more work at the store thinking of how to use it.
>> Be sure to eat plenty of veggies, and get your omega3 (fish oil,
>> purslane, ect). You may want to try an antiinflammatory tea as well
>
> For some strange reason, when I have eaten canned salmon, it also
> caused the cuticle areas on fingers to become sore. I'll have to retry
> or else get some capsules.
Put aside the salmon if you think it causes problems. Feel free to
double check in a couple of months. You don't want to put aside some
type of food forever and it ends up the problem was caused by something
else, but once you have double checks that it causes a problem drop that
nasty personal poison from your food choices from now until you decide
you want to be sick like that again.
> I recently switched from a low-fat to low-carb
> diet. I have tried twice before but couldn't stick to them due to dull
> headaches, lethargy,
The first two weeks of a low carb plan ends up a detox plan. There are
all sorts of effects that end by the time the two weeks are over.
Headaches are a common one - Dietary carbs directly cause the release of
insulin and insulin causes water retention. Plus the brain works very
well on fat as fuel (siezure disorders get treated with ketosis) but
normally burns glucose as fuel. I suspect the fall in insulin triggers
lower blood pressure and that effects muscle tension in the head.
There's also the fact that some low carb plans say to go off caffeine
and caffeine withdrawal includes headaches. If it's sugar and blood
pressure related the headaches are gone in a week. If it's caffeine
related it can take two weeks.
Changes in energy level are common when going into ketosis. I get a
huge burst of extra energy rather than lethargy, so the energy changes
can go either way. Again it lasts under two weeks.
> sore nerves
I don't know what that means but it does not sound familiar.
> and high cholesterol levels (+400)
Cholesterol readings are to be taken before starting and after being on
low carb 2+ months so this statement makes no sense. If you are getting
cholesterol measured more often than that it's the same issue as getting
on the scale more than once per day - Deliberately attempt to reduce
good information to noise by inspecting the drift and the result is
viewing noise as useful data when it's not.
The total number isn't a useful number. Look to the high-low ratio and
the VHDL count. There are two different claims about the most
predictable effect of low carbing - lowered blood pressure and lowered
VHDL count. Both are true, just a matter of which happens the most.
But the time scale isn't week to week.
> even though I am quite thin (BMI = 18.3).
So you're low carbing for the health benefits? Nice.
> I hope it will be different
> this time with lower protein and higher fat.
Run the arithmetic on total calories, carb grams, protein grams, and fat
grams and low carbing done by plan is always high fat. My maintenance
numbers look like this -
Target weight is 180 lbs, target calories is 1800.
Atkins CCLM maintenance carb quota is 100 gm, 400 cal. 1800 - 400 =
1400 remaining calories.
Simple estimate for protein grams is 100 gm, 400 cal. 1400 - 400 = 1000
remaining calories.
At 9 calories per gm that says my fat target is 1000 / 9 = 111 grams.
In actual practice I end up above 100 grams of protein by trading down
some of the fat. It still ends up with a 3-digit fat gram count.
> The second morning, I had a bad headache but it went away.
Early. Nice.
> About a week into and the lethargy
> has gone done but I still feel it especially during exercise.
While low carbing the glycogen supply is reduced. Doing a heavy workout
can easily deplete the glycogen stored in the muscles and with little or
none left in the liver there's no new supply for the muscles. I suggest
trying longer milder workouts instead of shorter more intense workouts.
Then over time build up as your muscles grow more fat burning slow
twitch fibers.
> The new
> diet seems to have reduced heartburns but inflamed cuticles on sides
> of finger nails.
In another post you mentioned that eating salmon causes inflamed
cuticles. I say now that you know salmon is a personal poison food do
not eat it any more. Don't eat foods that trigger ill effects as soon
as you figure what what those foods are.
> I am also hoping the low-carb diet will help my
> trigger fingers which I experience upon waking.
Do you have any idea what is causing the finger spasms? One cause is
poor blood circulation that happens with diabetics so it worries me.
Low carbing can prevent diabetes, but depending on existing damage it
won't necessarily stop the symptoms.
A very different if - If you're startling when you wake up it's possible
that is related to blood sugar swings. A high carber low fatter will be
running low on glucose by the end of a sleep period and could be in a
low blood sugar state. That comes with stress hormones to drive up
blood sugar and appetite. In comparison a low carber high fatter has a
stable blood sugar level from converting fat into glucose so the stress
hormones don't get relesaed. It's a big if but if the spasms are caused
by blood sugar swings they should stop happening. Time will tell.
> Did you experience an
> increase in inflammation initially? Did it go away?
For me before starting I had problems from wheat intolerance. By the
end of the first two weeks all sorts of symptoms went away. I don't
know if they would be called inflammation.
Banish that salmon!
jay - 04 Feb 2010 19:46 GMT
> The first two weeks of a low carb plan ends up a detox plan. There
> are all sorts of effects that end by the time the two weeks are over.
On prior attempts at low-carb, I gave up after about 2 weeks. Maybe I
gave up too early.
> Headaches are a common ...
> Changes in energy level are common ...
> I get a huge burst of extra energy rather than lethargy ...
> > sore nerves and high cholesterol levels (+400)
> I don't know what that means but it does not sound familiar.
> Cholesterol readings are to be taken before starting and after being on
> low carb 2+ months so this statement makes no sense ...
My family has a history of health issues. I have GI, food allergy and
autoimmune issues :(
> The total number isn't a useful number. Look to the ...
It was a simple blood test (Total 400, HDL > 99, ).
> > ... I am quite thin (BMI = 18.3).
> So you're low carbing for the health benefits? Nice.
Mostly to see if it will resolve some health issues.
> My maintenance numbers look like this -
> Target weight is 180 lbs, target calories is 1800.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> In actual practice I end up above 100 grams of protein by trading down
> some of the fat. It still ends up with a 3-digit fat gram count.
> > ... low-carb diet will help my trigger fingers ...
> One cause is poor blood circulation that happens with diabetics ...
As I understand it, trigger finger can result from inflamed tendons
that bind trying to slide through pulley like structures. Speaking of
spasms, on some mornings when I contract my calf muscles they seem to
stay contracted. Is this a magnesium deficiency? Do you taking
magnesium supplements?
> A very different if - If you're startling when you wake up it's possible
> that is related to blood sugar swings ...
This could be as my heart rate does go up considerably upon waking.
>> about 50g of protein
> Why did you decide to go that low in protein?
> ... many folks stay up near 100 grams ...
> You don't want to put aside some type of food forever and
> it ends up the problem was caused by something else ...
In the past, when I ate more protein, my feet would become sore more
easily from walking. But then I was eating more carbs also. Maybe low-
carb will allow me to tolerate more soon.
> At 35g you can have very large portions of low carb veggies.
> So much califlower you can hardly eat it ...
> Early on more is better; later on more is worse.
I wonder if this explains why I have felt drowsy an hour after some
meals with approx 100g of carbs but not after approx 50g. In just a
week and a half I have lost couple of pounds even though this isn't a
goal. Currently this diet has so much fat that it make me queasy and I
don't think I could eat more. Nice to have this problem for a change :)
Doug Freyburger - 04 Feb 2010 22:16 GMT
>> The first two weeks of a low carb plan ends up a detox plan. There
>> are all sorts of effects that end by the time the two weeks are over.
>
> On prior attempts at low-carb, I gave up after about 2 weeks. Maybe I
> gave up too early.
The clock of most diets ticks at the rate of one or two weeks. For low
carbing the first tick of the clock is two weeks in. If you stopped
before the first tick of the clock the conclusion is that you did not
start in the first place and thus you can't draw any conclusions form
what you experienced. It sounds harsh and it is, but it's the reality
of how it works.
>> > sore nerves and high cholesterol levels (+400)
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> My family has a history of health issues. I have GI, food allergy and
> autoimmune issues :(
I still don't know what sore nerves means. For that list you really
need to read the book on Atkins and follow it. Look at the eliminate
and challenge aspect of it for intolerance issues.
>> So you're low carbing for the health benefits? Nice.
>
> Mostly to see if it will resolve some health issues.
It is likely to do so, especially if you you pay attention to the
elinimate and challenge part that is ignored by most.
> ... Speaking of
> spasms, on some mornings when I contract my calf muscles they seem to
> stay contracted. Is this a magnesium deficiency? Do you taking
> magnesium supplements?
Calcium or magnesium issues seem to happen early on and then drop off
again. I take cal/mag supplements just because they are beneficial. I
take the belt and suspenders approach of eating plenty of varied veggies
and then figuring that modern farming methods made them devoid of many
nutrients. It's conservative, probably unnecessarily.
> I wonder if this explains why I have felt drowsy an hour after some
> meals with approx 100g of carbs but not after approx 50g.
Drowsiness comes from insulin swings and blood sugar swings. Drop the
carbs, stabilize insulin and blood sugar, the effect goes away.
> In just a
> week and a half I have lost couple of pounds even though this isn't a
> goal.
Water loss. Low carbing lets folks drop towards their ideal weight
without hunger. If you're already at or below your ideal weight that
doesn't happen. But the body stores glycogen carbs by disolving them in
water. Goodbye stored glycogen, goodbye the water it was disolved in.
> Currently this diet has so much fat that it make me queasy and I
> don't think I could eat more. Nice to have this problem for a change :)
Fat is self limiting when there's little carb with it. Sounds to me
like it's time for you to have more protein and less fat. No idea about
the foot pain thing, though.
jay - 23 Feb 2010 02:20 GMT
> The clock of most diets ticks at the rate of one or two weeks. For low
> carbing the first tick of the clock is two weeks in. If you stopped
> before the first tick of the clock the conclusion is that you did not
> start in the first place and thus you can't draw any conclusions form
> what you experienced. It sounds harsh and it is, but it's the reality
> of how it works.
This is the longest I have been on a low-carb diet. Experienced some
constipation last week so I swapped some veggies for legumes. Any
other tricks to avoid constipation?
I have been averaging around 70% fat, 15% protein and 15% carbs (50g).
A few days ago, I lowered the protein and now I am experiencing a
metallic taste almost continuously. Would this imply that the prior
level of protein/carbs exceeded that needed to keep blood glucose at
or above body's minimum preferred level? Should I try to avoid the
metallic taste? If so, is it better to raise carbs or protein?
Doug Freyburger - 23 Feb 2010 16:20 GMT
> This is the longest I have been on a low-carb diet.
Much that happens in the first couple of weeks is different from what
happens later in the plan. Think of the first couple of weeks as a boot
camp.
To me the single biggest advantage that low carbing has is the appetite
drops after a while. The body releases insulin in direct response to
dietary carbs so low carb means low insulin means no carb cravings.
> Experienced some
> constipation last week so I swapped some veggies for legumes. Any
> other tricks to avoid constipation?
First question I have is about empty versus plugged. If you've never
been plugged before it's possible to confuse being empty with being
plugged. Empty is common early in low carbing and empty is not a
problem. Plugged is a problem. Because the initial experiences are
temporary feel free to take non-prescription constipation medication if
you are sure you are plugged not empty.
Because you've been eating plenty of carbs for an early low carber you
should have plenty of roughage moving through your system. Getting to
50 grams net from cauliflower takes a portion bigger than an entire
head. You can try swapping more of the ultra-low-carb items like
lettuce and cucumber and less of the regular-low-carb items like
broccoli to increase roughage.
The mildest treatment is drinking a couple of extra liters of water as a
stool softener. Next is changing the ratios of vegitable types to
increase fiber. Then adding psylium husk to your food to increase
fiber. Now there are dissolving fiber products on the market - Check
them for carbs other than fiber.
> I have been averaging around 70% fat, 15% protein and 15% carbs (50g).
Some plans use percentages, some don't. The most popular low carb plans
go by grams and that makes the percentage numbers not useful. Knowing
total calories the percentage numbers turn into grams, but not knowing
total calories the percentage numbers mean very little.
> A few days ago, I lowered the protein
Fairly few folks take the route of lowering protein in favor of fat. It
works well but it's far more common to lower fat in favor of protein.
You are now seeing the advantages of making that less popular choice.
> and now I am experiencing a
> metallic taste almost continuously. Would this imply that the prior
> level of protein/carbs exceeded that needed to keep blood glucose at
> or above body's minimum preferred level?
The body burns carbs entirely for fuel. Sugars, starched and glycerine
get converted at various rates with near 100% efficiency to glucose.
The body uses fatty acids for cell building and repair. The excess is
burned in 3 parallel processes. One of those processes yields
roughly 10% of the total energy. It uses the glycerol that holds the
fatty acids together. Two glycerols are bonded together to make a
glucode. One process slowly converts fatty acids to acetyl-CoA for use
in aerobic respiration. The last process quickly converts fatty acids
to ketones for less efficient fuel pathways. It's good to use the
stored body fat faster and less efficiently therefore the metalic taste
that says you're in ketosis is a very good thing. Note that the taste
gets extremely faint after about two weeks so focus on it now hoping you
can still tell it's there in a couple of weeks when it's faint.
The body uses amino acids from protein for cell building and repair.
The excess is burned in a large assortment of chemical processes that
yield roughly 50% glucose calorie for calorie in the conversion process.
So in rough terms 10 calories of excess dietary protein make 5 calories
of carbs and 10 calories of excess dietary fat make 1 calorie of carbs.
Counting both protein and fat starting with the excess amounts, whatever
that means. It's easier to estimate the amount of protein grams needed
for metabolic purposes than the amount of fat needed for metabolic
purposes so when I do this arithmetic I ignore the 10% contribution from
fat burning. It's not an accurate accounting method but dieting for fat
loss works anyways.
Swap protein for fat calorie for calorie and you end up with smaller
portions that are just about the same degree of filling. but swap
protein for fat calorie for calorie and you end up with a lot less
insulin released. It's better for loss all the way until you reach a
minimum number of protein grams. For the same total calories it gives
better loss. Read recent discussions of special purpose high fat plans
for epileptics and you'll see it is not uniformly a good idea, but
trading protein for fat does work better for loss. Be cautious about it
and don't get into the low protein range and the biggest downside is
eating greasy foods.
There's a further advantage to higher dietary fat - The hormone glucagon
is released in indirect response to dietary fat. Glucagon is the
hormone that pulls fat out of storage. When losing fat you want
glucagon levels as high as practical. The hormone insulin is released
in direct response to dietary carbs and in indirect response to excess
deitary protein. Insulin is the hormone that pushes fat into storage.
Insulin suppresses glucagon release. You have just triggered a
metabolic loophole that is far from obvious - More dietary fat triggers
more fat to be withdrawn from storage as long as you keep both carbs and
protein low enough. Calories matter so it doesn't help to simply eat
more dietary fat in the hopes of pulling more fat form storage, but the
metalopic loophole is there for the taking - Combined low carb plus
carefully tuned protein then fill in the rest with fat and that's how to
maximize the blood glucagon level.
> Should I try to avoid the metallic taste?
Ketosis is to be celebrated as long as you are not a diabetic.
> If so, is it better to raise carbs or protein?
I suggest that the food you're eating now is likely to get dull from the
extra fat. Care needs to be taken to keep the food from seeming greasy.
Given how easy it is to have leaner meats and less fat you may not want
to sustain your current menu for long. It works well but it's likely to
be dull and/or more work than you want to put in long term.
But you're at 50 grams of carb. As you are you have the option of going
down to 20 grams of carb in exchange for some more protein ending up
with leaner cuts that are easier to find. A cycle of alternating weeks
at 50 and 20 grams of carb, protein grams to match the same total
calories, the same fat grams - That would be a cycle that rocks for how
it effects the hormone released in response to diet.
jay - 25 Feb 2010 20:04 GMT
> To me the single biggest advantage that low carbing has is the appetite drops after a while. The body releases insulin in direct response to dietary carbs so low carb means low insulin means no carb cravings.
It's nice not to feel hungry for 6 to 9 hours.
> > tricks to avoid constipation?
>
> First question I have is about empty versus plugged ...
I ate some well-cooked rib bones. I guess the extra calcium was
plugged up the works.
> Fairly few folks take the route of lowering protein in favor of fat. It works well but it's far more common to lower fat in favor of protein. You are now seeing the advantages of making that less popular choice...
> I suggest that the food you're eating now is likely to get dull from the
> extra fat. Care needs to be taken to keep the food from seeming
> greasy.
I saw one study that concluded the minimum protein requirement is
between 0.4 and 1 g/kg. I am hoping to add more protein later, once
some inflammatory symptoms subside.
> The body burns carbs entirely for fuel ...
Thanks for the detailed explanation of carb, fat and protein
metabolism.
> But you're at 50 grams of carb. As you are you have the option of going down to 20 grams of carb in exchange for some more protein ending up with leaner cuts that are easier to find. A cycle of alternating weeks at 50 and 20 grams of carb, protein grams to match the same total calories, the same fat grams - That would be a cycle that rocks for how it effects the hormone released in response to diet.
I'll try exhanging the legumes for some meat and see how it feels.
I do a short, medium-intensity workout infrequently. It seems I get a
mild headache later in the day and into the next morning. Can I add
some carbs before of after the workout to avoid this? Does the body
resort to cortisol if carb reserves are too low? Do you adust your
carbs based on physical activity?
Doug Freyburger - 25 Feb 2010 22:09 GMT
>> Fairly few folks take the route of lowering protein in favor of fat..
>
> I saw one study that concluded the minimum protein requirement is
> between 0.4 and 1 g/kg.
That's half a gram per pound of ideal weight. Plenty of folks go for a
gram per pound of goal weight. I think that's a reaction against low
protein pressure while low fatting. Virtually everyone gets more than
enough protein.
> I am hoping to add more protein later, once
> some inflammatory symptoms subside.
Inflamation and eating legumes? Hmmm.
> I'll try exhanging the legumes for some meat and see how it feels.
There may be little or no apparent change, but some folks get
inflamation symptoms from legumes. Going a couple of weeks legume free
and then adding legumes back in is a good plan. Maybe try that in month
2 or 3. No hurry. Being suspicious of legumes is a low percentage shot
but being thorough is good.
> I do a short, medium-intensity workout infrequently. It seems I get a
> mild headache later in the day and into the next morning. Can I add
> some carbs before of after the workout to avoid this? Does the body
> resort to cortisol if carb reserves are too low? Do you adust your
> carbs based on physical activity?
My answer of what I do for myself is very biased. My go for longer less
intense workouts early on then build up more. I do aerobics for 30
minutes and I target a heart rate of about 140 and being not
quite drenched with sweat near the end, and I target most days using the
treadmill or stationary bicycle. On the stationary bicycle I alternate
between fast and slow to approximate interval training. I go through
phases of doing resistance and phases of not. The Bowflex isn't idle
long enough to gather laundry but it is idle long enough to gather
dust ...
Walter Bushell - 05 Feb 2010 14:00 GMT
> For me before starting I had problems from wheat intolerance. By the
> end of the first two weeks all sorts of symptoms went away. I don't
> know if they would be called inflammation.
>
> Banish that salmon!
Sardines are safer if packed in water or olive oil, water for choice.
Vegetable oil, not so much, as it will be one of the nutrition complex
recommended "healthy" oils.

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