Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / April 2010
Diet Alone - Unlikely Leads to Significant Weight Loss
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pamela - 14 Apr 2010 14:39 GMT A primate study, 18 female rhesus macaque monkey - on a high-fat diet for several years - then returned to a lower-fat diet (standard monkey food) with a 30 percent reduction in calories. During the next month of observation - no weight loss, but a decline in activity. Further reduction of food calories in the following month resulted in even less physical activity.
Three monkeys on a normal diet were trained exercise 1 hour daily, and these treadmill exercising monkeys did loose weight.
Much of this sounds familiar to readers of Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories". I went from 240 pounds to 175 pounds following a summer of Low Carb plus about 1,000 miles of bicycling in 2004.
Science News
[b] Diet Alone Will Not Likely Lead to Significant Weight Loss, Study Suggests [/b]
ScienceDaily (Apr. 14, 2010) — Newly published research by scientists at Oregon Health & Science University demonstrates that simply reducing caloric intake is not enough to promote significant weight loss. This appears to be due to a natural compensatory mechanism that reduces a person's physical activity in response to a reduction in calories.
The research is published in the April edition of the American Journal of Physiology -- Regulatory, Integrative and Comparative Physiology. http://dx.doi.org/10.1152/ajpregu.00617.2009
"In the midst of America's obesity epidemic, physicians frequently advise their patients to reduce the number of calories they are consuming on a daily basis. This research shows that simply dieting will not likely cause substantial weight loss. Instead, diet and exercise must be combined to achieve this goal," explained Judy Cameron Ph.D., a senior scientist at OHSU's Oregon National Primate Research Center, and a professor of behavioral neuroscience and obstetrics & gynecology in the OHSU School of Medicine, as well as a professor of psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh.
To conduct the research, Cameron and OHSU post-doctoral fellow Elinor Sullivan, Ph.D., studied 18 female rhesus macaque monkeys at the Oregon National Primate Research Center. The monkeys were placed on a high-fat diet for several years. They were then returned to a lower-fat diet (standard monkey food) with a 30 percent reduction in calories. For a one-month period, the monkeys' weight and activity levels were closely tracked. Activity was tracked through the use of an activity monitor worn on a collar.
"Surprisingly, there was no significant weight loss at the end of the month," explained Sullivan. "However, there was a significant change in the activity levels for these monkeys. Naturally occurring levels of physical activity for the animals began to diminish soon after the reduced-calorie diet began. When caloric intake was further reduced in a second month, physical activity in the monkeys diminished even further."
A comparison group of three monkeys was fed a normal monkey diet and was trained to exercise for one hour daily on a treadmill. This comparison group did lose weight.
"This study demonstrates that there is a natural body mechanism which conserves energy in response to a reduction in calories. Food is not always plentiful for humans and animals and the body seems to have developed a strategy for responding to these fluctuations," added Cameron. "These findings will assist medical professionals in advising their patients. It may also impact the development of community interventions to battle the childhood obesity epidemic and lead to programs that emphasize both diet and exercise."
The research was supported by the National Institutes of Health.
Story Source:
Adapted from materials provided by Oregon Health & Science University, via EurekAlert!, a service of AAAS.
Journal Reference:
1. Sullivan et al. A rapidly occurring compensatory decrease in physical activity counteracts diet-induced weight loss in female monkeys. AJP Regulatory Integrative and Comparative Physiology, 2010; 298 (4): R1068 DOI: 10.1152/ajpregu.00617.2009
http://dx.doi.org/10.1152/ajpregu.00617.2009
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 14 Apr 2010 15:19 GMT > A primate study, 18 female rhesus macaque monkey - on a high-fat diet > for several years - then returned to a lower-fat diet (standard monkey [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > http://dx.doi.org/10.1152/ajpregu.00617.2009 The title should be changed from "Diet alone..." to "REDUCTION OF CALORIES alone..."
Here is a definiton of diet:
"A special or limited selection of food and drink, chosen or prescribed to promote health or a gain or loss of weight"
That definition is not about cutting food intake, but of WHAT you put in your body. For my part, I keep notes of my calorie intake only for future studies. I've been on low-carb diet for a few days (mostly fish, chicken, almonds, pumpkin seeds, natural peanut butter) and shed 8 pounds in 5 days.
Doug Freyburger - 14 Apr 2010 20:07 GMT >> http://dx.doi.org/10.1152/ajpregu.00617.2009 > > The title should be changed from "Diet alone..." to "REDUCTION OF > CALORIES alone..." There's a bit more to it than that. The test monkeys when from a medium calorie high fat diet to a low calorie low fat diet without losing. It was not the first study to compare those two strategies. That's been done with humans as well. The mixture of fuels matters in addition to the total energy of the fuel.
> For my part, I keep notes of my calorie intake only for > future studies. I've been on low-carb diet for a few days (mostly > fish, chicken, almonds, pumpkin seeds, natural peanut butter) and shed > 8 pounds in 5 days. In another post you wrote that you went from 195 to 170 in 45 days. I take it that was a different attempt or that was on a slightly different food list so you reset your starting date?
I hope you also ate veggies. The foods you listed are meats and meat-like substitutes. Nuts, seeds and legumes do count technically as veggies rather like cucumbers count technically as fruit. There status is more of a technicality than a generally accepted categorization.
Billy - 14 Apr 2010 21:43 GMT His story is starting to wander. I think it's time to bring out the bright light and the rubber hose, if we want to get the truth, if anyone cares.
> >> http://dx.doi.org/10.1152/ajpregu.00617.2009 > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > veggies rather like cucumbers count technically as fruit. There status > is more of a technicality than a generally accepted categorization.  Signature - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 15 Apr 2010 04:16 GMT > In article <hq53op$p5...@news.eternal-september.org>, > > His story is starting to wander. I think it's time to bring out the > bright light and the rubber hose, if we want to get the truth, if anyone > cares. Nothing sinister. I was referring to two distinct periods. Go back to my posts I wrote through the years, and you'll see enjoyed the lows of 168 pounds and the sadness of the 197 pounds. I've been on and off my several weight-management programs. Now I hope I'll stay on the right track. I thank Doug for always been there for me through the years. He always replied to my questions and help me. Free of charge, I should say.
> -- > - Billy > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUghttp://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn /HZinn_page.html- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Doug Freyburger - 15 Apr 2010 19:47 GMT >> I think it's time to bring out the bright light and the rubber hose > > Nothing sinister. Drat. I was so looking forward to the rubber hose. The entire latex outfit for that matter. Spot light, dancing pole, loud cheesy music, latex outfit. Oh wait. Michael not Michelle. Never mind.
Must be the other meaning for it. You ate a legume in week 4? Whack!
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 16 Apr 2010 04:57 GMT > mikesmith9...@hotmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Must be the other meaning for it. You ate a legume in week 4? Whack! I hope I can continue getting your full support.
Billy - 16 Apr 2010 06:26 GMT In article <8115c07a-85f3-4a31-a379-accb03922bde@y14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> > mikesmith9...@hotmail.com wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I hope I can continue getting your full support. Of course you can. By the way, what did you eat on the night of the 8th of April?
 Signature - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 16 Apr 2010 15:46 GMT > In article > <8115c07a-85f3-4a31-a379-accb03922...@y14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - This is what I had for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
I started at 180 pounds on Day 1 went down at one point to 176 and got back to 180 on Day 9. Pizza and cake on Day 6, when I was at 177, problably helped going back to 180. That's why I went low-carb on Day 10 (see below) I decided to reduce the carbs and re-introduced psyllium and pumpkin seeds that have always helped me drop the weight.
Day 10 (179) Calories
2tbs almond butter w/ one apple 300 Black Coffee 0 ================================== Chicken wings, 6 600 GREEN BEANS IN CAN 50 ===================================== Radish, 6 0 GREEN BEANS IN CAN 50 Pumpkin seeds, 1/3 cup 250 Peanut butter, 3tbs 300 PSYLLIUM, 1tbs 0 ======================== TOTAL 1550
Doug Freyburger - 16 Apr 2010 18:59 GMT > I started at 180 pounds on Day 1 went down at one point to 176 and got > back to 180 on Day 9. Pizza and cake on Day 6, when I was at 177, > problably helped going back to 180. That's why I went low-carb on Day > 10 (see below) I decided to reduce the carbs and re-introduced > psyllium and pumpkin seeds that have always helped me drop the weight. Probably not one dieter in history has liked the fact, but the time scale for fat loss is month to month not day to day or week to week. Your numbers show why. For many years I've been asserting that Induction is one tick of the clock - The weight before and after count but no weighings inside matter at all, not in the least. Your numbers show why.
To fight random water retention bounce to is fight something other than stored fat. To weigh daily makes it far too likely to fight random water retention.
> Day 10 (179) Calories > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ======================== > TOTAL 1550 Strange asssortment. Strange assortments are fun but they are often hard to sustain. Are you past the point of carb cravings so you are not hungry eating 1550 calories?
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 16 Apr 2010 19:16 GMT > mikesmith9...@hotmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > hard to sustain. Are you past the point of carb cravings so you are not > hungry eating 1550 calories? Everything I do in life is strange. I'm not the regular Joe on anything. After eating all the above, I don't feel any hunger at all. Carbs really drive me mad. If I wanted, I could eat either one of these: 4 donoughts, 6 bagels, one large pizza a huge apple pie, one liter of ice cream, 12 slices of bread with jam and peanut butter or a bag of Aero cookies. I remember eating a whole bag of brown sugar with a spoon. I think I counted 60 tablespoons. When the bag was empty, I continued with the white sugar... I was talking to friends about deserts I like. They were amazed at my passion about them. I don't think they ever met someone who desire them so much. If I had only one day to live, I would spend it at at desert store. I would eat them until I drop dead.
Billy - 16 Apr 2010 21:05 GMT In article <df62bdb1-562d-4b7c-abc3-28e7be230168@i37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> > In article > > <8115c07a-85f3-4a31-a379-accb03922...@y14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > ======================== > TOTAL 1550 You beat me.
Yesterday
Dinner med. potato = 21.15g carbs= 84.6 cal tbl sour cream = .35g carbs= 23 cal 2 chicken thighs = 0g carbs = 218 cal 2 bacon =.22g carbs = 88 cal bread = 14.35g carbs = 75 cal assort. Cheese 153 + 171 cal = 324 2 dry wine= 254 calories salad = 3 carbs = 16 cal
Total= 1086.6 cal
snack 2 tbl. jam = 27.54g carbs = 112 cal bread = 12g carbs = 265 total = 377
breakfast 2 tortillas = 27g carbs = 130 cal 100g turkey = 170 cal cheese = 113 cal total = 335
Grand total = 1872 cal carbs = 106g (not counting the wine) ----- http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/4717.php
Wine after carb-heavy meal causes drop in insulin 22 Nov 2003
Kicking back with a few glasses of wine after dinner may be relaxing, but it might not be so good for your health, say Australian researchers.
In a study in the November issue of Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, researchers found drinking the equivalent of three glasses of white wine after eating a carbohydrate-laden meal caused insulin levels to drop. -----
High BG? Low insulin? This was a surprise. Know anything about this, Doug?
Huh? http://www.aim-digest.com/gateway/pages/diabetes/articles/skoven1.htm
The treatment of diabetes before the era of insulin consisted of various dull and unpalatable diets. One of the diets was designed by the French physician, Bouchardat, who replaced the dangerous foods (starch and sugar) with other foods like protein and fat. His "animal food" diet consisted mainly of fatty meat, however, the French Doctor encouraged the patients to wash their "animal diet" down with red wine. Dr. Bouchardats book "De la diabète sucré" recommended 1-4 litres of Claret or Burgundy of proper maturity at least four years old per day. The ample supply of wine served its purpose as an important carbohydrate-free source of energy with the added bonus of making the meals tolerable for thousands of diabetic patients.
**Dr. Bouchardats book "De la diabète sucré" recommended 1-4 litres of Claret or Burgundy of proper maturity at least four years old per day.** YES! Dans mes bras.
The insulin-resistance syndrome, a defect in the ability of the body tissues to respond adequately to insulin, also comprises hypertension, hyperuricaemia, high levels of plasminogen activator inhibitor I, low HDL-cholesterol levels, high triglycerides and dense LDL-cholesterol particles. Each of the components of the syndrome is considered a risk factor for atherosclerosis. Therapeutic options to improve insulin sensitivity are scarce and mostly limited to changes in life-style, such as weight loss, cessation of smoking, and increased physical activity. This list may now be extended with a moderate consumption of alcohol (18).
This question is asked by M.Criqui and B.Golomb in an editorial of JAMA, July 21, 1999 (32)The US epidemiologists actually expect a greater absolute benefit in reduction in risk for CHD in older patients with diabetes compared with unselected populations, because they are at higher baseline risk of coronary heart disease. "However, in patients with diabetes, alcohol may both induce and mask potentially severe hypoglycaemia by exaggerating hypoglycaemic effects caused by other factors (eg, exercise or insulin, sulfonylureas, betablockers, or other drugs). But what is true for most patients with diabetes is true for other patients at high risk for CHD light to moderate alcohol consumption likely provides benefit, but is contraindicated in anyone who, for whatever reason, cannot restrict his or her drinking to light to moderate levels. For some patients, 1 drink is plenty, 2 is too many, and, unfortunately, 3 is not half enough."
 Signature - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
trader4@optonline.net - 16 Apr 2010 14:10 GMT On Apr 15, 11:57 pm, "mikesmith9...@hotmail.com" <mikesmith9...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > mikesmith9...@hotmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I hope I can continue getting your full support. I hope your realize a lot of that 8lbs, probably most of it, that you lost in the first 5 days is just water and it always happens when you start LC.
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 16 Apr 2010 15:40 GMT On Apr 16, 9:10 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 11:57 pm, "mikesmith9...@hotmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Yes, I did. Extra water I no longer need, maybe? I'm feeling good. I play hockey and commute to work every day with my bike (1h20). I feel a bit more energy than before. I no longer need a nap in the afternoon. I don't feel light-headed at all.
Doug Freyburger - 16 Apr 2010 19:04 GMT > Extra water I no longer need, maybe? The body converts glucose to glycogen to store it. Glycogen is stored by dissolving it in water. Use up the stored carbs, drop the water it was dissolved in as well.
Fat is very dense at 3500+ calories per pound with little water. Dry glucose crystals may be 4 calories per gram but by the time you dissolve it in water it's down to 1 calorie per gram. That makes fat at least 7 times as dense for the energy stored. That's why water loss can be so fast compared to fat loss.
> I no longer need a nap in the > afternoon. I don't feel light-headed at all. Buh bye insulin swings.
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 17 Apr 2010 00:01 GMT > Buh bye insulin swings. Buy bye, and never come back!
I impressed myself just two seconds ago: Someone just offered me two donoughts for free. And I said "no!!!!!!!!!". I can't believe I did that. I would have normally said, "Just two?".
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 15 Apr 2010 04:11 GMT > In another post you wrote that you went from 195 to 170 in 45 days. I > take it that was a different attempt or that was on a slightly different [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > veggies rather like cucumbers count technically as fruit. There status > is more of a technicality than a generally accepted categorization. Yes, the 195 to 170 was one or two years ago, and I lost 8 pounds in 5 days in the last week.
I resume my veggie intake. I had enough of these nuts and meat and did not care for anything else. I had a mix of a can of tuna with a can of green beans, and I had to force myself to eat these 250 calories. Then I becom a bit worried about not having fresh veggies and fruits. I had a banana today with natural, not salted peanut butter. It's a wonderful mix of tastes. I know banana are high in carbs, but they do provide potassium and have fibers. That's all I had for carbs today, anyway.
Doug Freyburger - 15 Apr 2010 19:04 GMT >> I hope you also ate veggies. The foods you listed are meats and >> meat-like substitutes. Nuts, seeds and legumes do count technically as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not care for anything else. I had a mix of a can of tuna with a can of > green beans, Green beans are good and low carb, but they tend to get boring. Variety.
> and I had to force myself to eat these 250 calories. I think you and I decide "force myself" differently. To me that's when I am so full I feel sick so the food is pushed down against a gag. It looks like to you that's when you aren't hungry but you eat anyways.
To me "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" so I would rather eat while not hungry than eat while hungry. If I'm not hungry I have better control so my total portions end up lower.
> Then > I becom a bit worried about not having fresh veggies and fruits. I had > a banana today with natural, not salted peanut butter. It's a > wonderful mix of tastes. I know banana are high in carbs, but they do > provide potassium and have fibers. That's all I had for carbs today, > anyway. A fraction of a banana. A large portion of cauliflower. An amount of lettuce so big I can't finish it. All the same carb count. Just saying ...
Billy - 14 Apr 2010 19:12 GMT Thanks for the study. If nothing else, it reaffirms by beliefs based on what I've read. I lost 30 lbs about 9 months ago, with low carb, but I seem to have hit a plateau. Damn, I may get desperate enough to exercise;O)
> A primate study, 18 female rhesus macaque monkey - on a high-fat diet > for several years - then returned to a lower-fat diet (standard monkey [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > http://dx.doi.org/10.1152/ajpregu.00617.2009  Signature - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
Marengo - 17 Apr 2010 18:54 GMT >A primate study, 18 female rhesus macaque monkey - on a high-fat diet >for several years - then returned to a lower-fat diet (standard monkey >food) with a 30 percent reduction in calories. During the next month of >observation - no weight loss, but a decline in activity. Further >reduction of food calories in the following month resulted in even less >physical activity.
>Three monkeys on a normal diet were trained exercise 1 hour daily, and >these treadmill exercising monkeys did loose weight. Then I'm glad I'm a human and not a monkey. My energy level has increased tremendously since losing weight -- without spending hours on a treadmill.
By the way, it's "lose," not loose." ;-)
>Much of this sounds familiar to readers of Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad >Calories". I went from 240 pounds to 175 pounds following a summer of >Low Carb plus about 1,000 miles of bicycling in 2004. I went from 270 pounds to 215 on a controlled carb diet with virtually no additional exercise, since I have disabilities from a 1998 stroke 1998 and cannot walk fast enough to get my heart rate up. I've maintained my weight just by controlling what I eat. It can be done despite testing on three monkeys.
--- Peter
FOB - 17 Apr 2010 21:51 GMT And I have gone from 292 to 211 over a period of years with low carb.
| By the way, it's "lose," not loose." ;-) | [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | --- | Peter pamela - 17 Apr 2010 23:31 GMT Unlikely..... not certainly not.
> And I have gone from 292 to 211 over a period of years with low carb. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > | --- > | Peter mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 17 Apr 2010 23:33 GMT > And I have gone from 292 to 211 over a period of years with low carb. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > | --- > | Peter Marengo, you and millions of others prove that whatever studies and all these weight-loss experts in the media don't really matter, after all. What does matter is what YOU did. You've known success with what YOU did. Almost every time I talk about my weight-loss success to someone, he has at least one piece of advice to give me. I tell him right away that I don't care about what he has to say, unless I know for a fact that he is talking by experience, not just parotting what he heard on TV.
Marengo - 19 Apr 2010 06:34 GMT >> And I have gone from 292 to 211 over a period of years with low carb. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >for a fact that he is talking by experience, not just parotting what >he heard on TV. Yep. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. --- Peter
Billy - 19 Apr 2010 07:32 GMT > >> And I have gone from 292 to 211 over a period of years with low carb. > >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > --- > Peter Lost 25 lbs, just from low carb. Now that I'm exercising and restricting the carbs even more, I have high hopes.
 Signature - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 20 Apr 2010 00:46 GMT > In article <ppqns5580qra8bcuaro2vpsiluq2m17...@4ax.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > the carbs even more, I have high hopes. > -- Congratulations, Sir! I gained a bit in the last two days, but it's all right because I'm going back to the low-carb basics.
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 20 Apr 2010 00:46 GMT > On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 15:33:06 -0700 (PDT), "mikesmith9...@hotmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Yep. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. > --- Pudding... Chocolate pudding!!!!!!!!!! mmmmmmmmmm
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