Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsGeneral TopicsLow CarbWeightWatchers
WeightAdviser.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / April 2010

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Cheat meals and ketosis

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Alfred Matej - 16 Apr 2010 14:44 GMT
I guess these would probably actually be called carb up meals, but how do
you guys feel about these? Lately I've been having one meal a week where
I'll go out and eat a meal and not watch the carbs. My ketostix say that
I'm still in ketosis. I realize that it could be a false-positive.

I was just curious if you guys have cheat meals like this and can one meal
knock me out of ketosis? Especially if I'm eating one of my largest meals
was probably around 80 grams of carbs (corn, flour, ect).
Doug Freyburger - 16 Apr 2010 16:07 GMT
> I guess these would probably actually be called carb up meals, but how do
> you guys feel about these? Lately I've been having one meal a week where
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> knock me out of ketosis? Especially if I'm eating one of my largest meals
> was probably around 80 grams of carbs (corn, flour, ect).

Google for "leptin reset" discussions.  Staying too low in carb intake
too long tends to reduce the levels of thyroid T3 and/or leptin.  I tend
to prefer avoiding that by moving my carb intake up to the 50 range but
it's a common tool among body builders to do 6 days of very low carb
then 1 day of very low fat in a repeating pattern.

As to the one meal issue read Carbohydrate Addicts Diet by Drs Heller or
one of the several books that build on it by the same good doctors
Heller.  Their theory is that it takes an hour for the body to start
releasing extra insulin.  My theory is that the leptin reset aspect of
the carb intake spike increases basal metabolism thus increasing the
ketones in the blood indirectly.  On the surface the two explanations
may seem to conflict but I think they address different effects and time
scales.

I has seen a meal with 80 grams of carb kick me out of ketosis so yes it
can.  But it does not change anything already in the bladder if you
measure soon after and it can do a leptin reset so it can increase the
ketones present a day later.  Timing matters.

One problem with calling them "cheat meals" - If your mind set is a
cheat you may want to use the type of carbs most likely to knock you off
the plan by triggering an addictive behavior pattern.  That's either an
intolerance based binge trigger that you haven't documented or foods
with high enough glycemic load to restart the insulin swings.  Doing it
within the one hour time limit from CAD is supposed to handle the
insulin swing but it doesn't always.

One strategy for making a leptin reset a part of your plan anywhere from
weekly to monthly - Try to do it with the high carb foods you find the
least tempting.  Like wheat a lot but consider brown rice boring?  Then
use brown rice as your staple for that low fat reversal meal.  Okay,
that's two strategies as I included mention that it's a low fat reversal.

Every so often I'll have an Indian style vegitarian low fat meal with
all sorts of legumes and rice and veggies and spices and tea that I
order not sweet.  It does not match my least-tempting strategy as I find
the food very delicious but it is so very different from my usual food
that my digestion isn't smooth with it.  It fails to be tempting for a
different reason than by using the carby foods I find boring.

Ask around and you'll find a pattern among certain dieters who want fast
results.  Folks want to stay very low carb for very long because they
are convinced that if low is good lower must be better.  The loss rate
drops off and often enough stalls.  The limited food variety leads to
temptation to cheat.  A cheat triggers a whosh because of its leptin
reset mechanism but folks who don't want moderate plans and moderate
losses aren't interested in the biochemistry so they don't know about
that mechanism.  They just know that a cheat triggered a whosh but it
also triggered guilt.  So they return to very low carbing and once again
they lose for a while then the rate drops or stops.  This eventually
turns into a negative feedback loop of deprivation dieting alternated
with cheats that use worse and worse carby foods not specifically
planned low fat carby foods.  At some point a cheat kicks them off plan
completely and they quit.

There are a *lot* of people out there who say they tried low carbing but
it didn't work and when you ask them about what they did it was take
pattern.  Fad dieting doesn't work and they had treated low carbing with
a fad diet mentality.
Susan - 16 Apr 2010 17:11 GMT
> Google for "leptin reset" discussions.  Staying too low in carb intake
> too long tends to reduce the levels of thyroid T3 and/or leptin.

T3 drops rapidly as soon as calories or carbs drop very low, and
inactive rT3 (reverse) increases at the same time.

Not after "too long."

Susan
Billy - 16 Apr 2010 21:28 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Susan

Any chance of a translation for the great unwashed?
Signature

- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Doug Freyburger - 19 Apr 2010 17:41 GMT
>> > Google for "leptin reset" discussions.  Staying too low in carb intake
>> > too long tends to reduce the levels of thyroid T3 and/or leptin.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any chance of a translation for the great unwashed?

It depends on what translation you mean.  There are two time scales to
be found.

Look for short term studies of very low carb or very low calorie and
you'll find lots that mention dropping T3 levels starting two weeks
in. It's one of many reasons why Atkins Induction lasts that long by
default.

Looking for long term leptin studies that show metabolic changes after
six months is a much harder task. Few studies last that long and most
of them are not still at Induction carb levels.
Susan - 19 Apr 2010 19:16 GMT
> It depends on what translation you mean.  There are two time scales to
> be found.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in. It's one of many reasons why Atkins Induction lasts that long by
> default.

You seem to be confusing the fact that some studies don't check for T3
for two weeks with that being how long it takes to fall. This abstract
compares with all the others I've seen that measure T3 upon initiation
of fasting.  Other studies of ketosis onset in type 1 diabetics measure
mere hours for T3 to drop measurably.

Endokrinologie. 1981 Mar;77(1):70-8.
Effects of total fasting in obese women. IV. Response of serum
triiodothyronine (T3) and reverse triiodothyronine (rT3) to administered T3.
Límanová Z, Sonka J, Kratochvíl O, Wilczek H, Marek J.

Abstract
Serum levels of T4, T3, rT3, RT3U and TSH were estimated in 12 obese
women in the course of a 14-day fasting. Seven of these patients were
treated with T3 in a daily dose of 60--80 micrograms. Fasting led to a
small increase of serum T4, while fasting combined with T3
administration was accompanied by a small decrease of serum T4.

*************Serum T3 decreased in the course of the first 2 days of
fasting to 40--50% of initial values and remained at this low level up
to the 15th day of fasting.*****************

 In the T3 treated group a prompt increase of serum T3 was recorded
(+80%), followed by a steady decrease, reaching the control values on
day 15, in spite of a continuous T3 administration. Serum rT3 in the
untreated fasting group steadily increased up to the 12th day (+43%) and
then dropped below the control value (-28%). In the treated group after
a non-significant increase (+22%), a decrease of serum rT3 was also
observed (-42%). Fasting was accompanied by a tendency to increased
serum RT3U values, in the T3 treated group no change occurred. TSH in
the untreated fasting women remained practically unchanged while T3
administration was accompanied by a tendency to a transient decrease.
The heart rate showed a non-significant tendency to increase in the T3
treated group and the last week of fasting was also accompanied in
several patients by a larger weight loss. These results suggest that in
addition to an enhanced synthesis of rT3 to the detriment of a decreased
production of T3 from T4, an increased catabolism of administered T3 and
of endogenous rT3 is involved in a strict calorie restriction. An
abortive T3-TRH-TSH feed-back may also operate in these conditions.

PMID: 7227325 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.