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"Fruits are great for you!". Really?

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mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 19 Apr 2010 22:53 GMT
I almost felt asleep in the bus within an hour after having a smoothie
made of banana and strawberries. Coincidence or is it my insuline? We
are bombarbed in the media with the "Fruits are great for you""
messages. If they are, then why are they killing me like this?
Alfred Matej - 19 Apr 2010 22:56 GMT
> I almost felt asleep in the bus within an hour after having a smoothie
> made of banana and strawberries. Coincidence or is it my insuline? We
> are bombarbed in the media with the "Fruits are great for you""
> messages. If they are, then why are they killing me like this?

I'd guess it was insulin. How big was the smoothie?
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 20 Apr 2010 00:00 GMT
> > I almost felt asleep in the bus within an hour after having a smoothie
> > made of banana and strawberries. Coincidence or is it my insuline? We
> > are bombarbed in the media with the "Fruits are great for you""
> > messages. If they are, then why are they killing me like this?
>
> I'd guess it was insulin. How big was the smoothie?

I had a large one because I love the taste. :)  About 2 1/2 cups.
Tonight I'm back to "safety" with tuna and green beans. I don't want
to gain back the water.
Alice Faber - 20 Apr 2010 00:47 GMT
In article
<90878a5d-8556-42a7-b46b-4dd1b8a46c35@x42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,

> > > I almost felt asleep in the bus within an hour after having a smoothie
> > > made of banana and strawberries. Coincidence or is it my insuline? We
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Tonight I'm back to "safety" with tuna and green beans. I don't want
> to gain back the water.

Hmmm...2 1/2 cups of smoothie has got to be c. 75 grams of carb,
depending on ingredients. One banana alone is 30 grams of carb. If
there's OJ in your smoothie, there's another 30 grams (assuming 8 oz of
juice). Strawberries and plain yoghurt are relatively low-carb, but they
still add some. Finally, if you bought the smoothy somewhere, I'd be
shocked if there weren't some sugar or honey in it.

Signature

"[xxx] has very definite opinions, and does not suffer fools lightly.
This, apparently, upsets the fools."
    ---BB cuts to the pith of a flame-fest

mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 20 Apr 2010 01:03 GMT
> In article
> <90878a5d-8556-42a7-b46b-4dd1b8a46...@x42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> still add some. Finally, if you bought the smoothy somewhere, I'd be
> shocked if there weren't some sugar or honey in it.

No yogurt or juice. Just one or two bananas and strawberries. I
demanded that there be absolutely no sugar added.
Alice Faber - 20 Apr 2010 02:22 GMT
In article
<52c2161c-9ffe-489e-bddf-f06ecc135eb9@c1g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <90878a5d-8556-42a7-b46b-4dd1b8a46...@x42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> No yogurt or juice. Just one or two bananas and strawberries. I
> demanded that there be absolutely no sugar added.

Bananas have, on average, 30 grams of carbohydrate, each (assuming
they're not too large!). Most smoothie recipes that I've seen have
*some* liquid added, either milk or fruit juice; those are equivalent in
terms of carb content (though not in taste, obviously).

Signature

"[xxx] has very definite opinions, and does not suffer fools lightly.
This, apparently, upsets the fools."
    ---BB cuts to the pith of a flame-fest

Walter Bushell - 20 Apr 2010 23:33 GMT
> In article
> <52c2161c-9ffe-489e-bddf-f06ecc135eb9@c1g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> *some* liquid added, either milk or fruit juice; those are equivalent in
> terms of carb content (though not in taste, obviously).

Perhaps, they added high fructose corn syrup instead, technically that's
not sugar.

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Walter Bushell - 20 Apr 2010 23:31 GMT
> In article
> <90878a5d-8556-42a7-b46b-4dd1b8a46c35@x42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> still add some. Finally, if you bought the smoothy somewhere, I'd be
> shocked if there weren't some sugar or honey in it.

If it was from a health food place probably agave nectar.

Signature

A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

Billy - 20 Apr 2010 01:13 GMT
In article
<1582531d-39f2-492c-8a8d-a56f5a34e5f4@z9g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,

> I almost felt asleep in the bus within an hour after having a smoothie
> made of banana and strawberries. Coincidence or is it my insuline? We
> are bombarbed in the media with the "Fruits are great for you""
> messages. If they are, then why are they killing me like this?

No causality shown. Don't go weird on us.
Signature

- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

mikesmith9999@hotmail.com - 20 Apr 2010 02:19 GMT
> In article
> <1582531d-39f2-492c-8a8d-a56f5a34e...@z9g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> No causality shown. Don't go weird on us.
> --
Sure.
Doug Freyburger - 20 Apr 2010 17:18 GMT
> I almost felt asleep in the bus within an hour after having a smoothie
> made of banana and strawberries. Coincidence or is it my insuline? We
> are bombarbed in the media with the "Fruits are great for you""
> messages. If they are, then why are they killing me like this?

The idea that a smoothie is equivalent to the fruit is false.  Even if
you make the smoothie yourself the blender separates the sugar from the
fiber to make it higher glycemic load.  If you didn't make it yourself
even watching how it was made you're likely to miss high carb added
ingredients.

The idea that fruits are good is fine for someone who's never gotten fat
in the first place.  It's a load of nonsense for those of us have gotten
fat.  What's a fruit?  It's a vegitable that grew a fancy outfit and
added sugar to itself.  Given the choice between some vegitable and some
fruit there's rarely any up side to picking the fruit over the vegitable.

That said some fruit are a lot lower carb than others.  Cucumber is a
fruit but it's so low in carbs few ever consider it a fruit and it's on
the salad veggie list.  Tomatoes are low enough folks like to add them
in the early weeks.  Strawberries are low enough that they are early on
the lists of fruit.

Other fruits are a lot higher carb than others.  Bananas, pineapples and
dates are filled with sugar.  I think it was the Greek philosopher
Anaximander who said "If the gods had not made honey we would think figs
the sweeter".

Fruits are great for folks who think french fries count against their
daily 5 servings of veggies.  Have you even seen what a serving is?  The
salads I often have with dinner are tiny but they count as 2 servings!
I come closer to 10 servings of veggies per day than to 5 when I take
into account the tiny size of a serving.  To think that some folks eat a
medium serving of fries at Burger King and count it as their 5 servings
for the day, no matter even something as bad as a banana is supposed to
be beneficial.  But it isn't compared to real food.  Bananas are candy
without being called that.
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 20 Apr 2010 23:58 GMT
>The idea that fruits are good is fine for someone who's never gotten fat
>in the first place.  It's a load of nonsense for those of us have gotten
>fat.

I highly doubt that people have actually gotten fat from fruit as their only
carbohydrate source. Most people get fat from eating refined sugars, flour and
high starch root vegetables.

>What's a fruit?  It's a vegitable that grew a fancy outfit and
>added sugar to itself.

Which seems entirely natural in terms of evolution.

>Fruits are great for folks who think french fries count against their
>daily 5 servings of veggies.  Have you even seen what a serving is?  The
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>be beneficial.  But it isn't compared to real food.  Bananas are candy
>without being called that.

I resent the implication that a naturally occurring phenomenon such as fruit is
in your opinion not real food. Strictly speaking, real food is food intended by
Nature to be eaten. There is no other purpose fro fruit besides human and
animal consumption, which is why it rots when left on trees for too long.
Animal flesh, milk, eggs and their byproducts, in contrast, take all manner of
processing to be consumed by humans. Nearly all cultures agree that fruit is
the most nutritious food group found in nature and entirely consumable raw. You
seem to be focused on fruit's sugar content, which  I understand as a fellow
low-carber. But trust me, our obesity epidemic is not due to people eating too
many bananas, watermelons, pineapples or other high glyceride fruits.

Orlando
Doug Freyburger - 21 Apr 2010 19:15 GMT
>>The idea that fruits are good is fine for someone who's never gotten fat
>>in the first place.  It's a load of nonsense for those of us have gotten
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> carbohydrate source. Most people get fat from eating refined sugars, flour and
> high starch root vegetables.

All well and good for those who never got fat in the first place.
Getting fat in the first place changes the situation.  What once was
okay is no longer okay.

>>Fruits are great for folks who think french fries count against their
>>daily 5 servings of veggies.  Have you even seen what a serving is?  The
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I resent the implication that a naturally occurring phenomenon such as fruit is
> in your opinion not real food.

I have no idea where you pulled such nonsense from.  Bananas may be
fine for those who have never gotten fat in the first place. Getting
fat in the first place changes that. That's how illnesses often work.
Obesity is a disfunction of the metabolism and one of the symptoms of
that disorder, for those of us who succeed with low carb, is that some
foods that were harmless before we got fat in the first place are now
harmful.  A food being real or not have liitle to do with that.

But just how beneficial are bananas even for those who have never got
fat in the first place?  If we use the model of how foods work in the
wild then to eat bananas a person would have to search through a jungle
to find them.  That includes climbing trees to evade leopards, throwing
sharp sticks at small animals, then encountering small numbers of banana
plants that happen to have non-ripe bananas ready for the eating.
That's not the story of a modern human eating a banana.  And it's
definitely not the story of a modern human who has already gotten fat
and who therefore can't handle sugar in any quantity any more.

Someone who never got fat in the first place should not eat a pile of
bananas twice the size of their head because that much fruit will give
them the runs.  Someone already fat and carb sensative should avoid the
first banana during their loss phases and possibly even during
maintenance depending on how carb sensative they are.
Orlando Enrique Fiol - 21 Apr 2010 21:20 GMT
>All well and good for those who never got fat in the first place.
>Getting fat in the first place changes the situation.  What once was
>okay is no longer okay.

That may be your plan, but I'm not prepared to give up on fruits entirely. I
can do without all processed sugars and starches, but not fruit.

>Bananas may be fine for those who have never gotten fat in the first place.
Getting fat in the first place changes that. That's how illnesses often work.
>Obesity is a disfunction of the metabolism and one of the symptoms of
>that disorder, for those of us who succeed with low carb, is that some
>foods that were harmless before we got fat in the first place are now
>harmful.

It highly depends on each individual. For some, fruit consumption does not
impede weight loss and is therefore not harmful. For others, even one bite of
fruit can bring about a stall. There are so many contributing factors toward
obesity that it is ludicrous to single out fruits as being harmful merely
because they contain sugars. Once again, look at the kinds of diets that have
produced obesity; they do not consist of natural, raw and obviously unsweetened
fruits. I entirely understand your position that tolerable foods become harmful
after we get fat. But, nearly everyone on any flavor of low-carb diet struggles
with the inescapable reality that they don't want to eat strictly low-carb for
the rest of their lives. This is why all low-carb plans eventually include
fruits, vegetables and even some whole grains in their maintenance phases. What
you're suggesting works in an induction phase, but is not meant to be followed
for years.

>But just how beneficial are bananas even for those who have never got
>fat in the first place?  If we use the model of how foods work in the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>definitely not the story of a modern human who has already gotten fat
>and who therefore can't handle sugar in any quantity any more.

By the same token, we should not eat meat without first chasing and hunting it.
I love your double standard. When I suggest that fruits are entirely natural
foods meant to be eaten by humans and animals alike, you reply that we no
longer eat fruits under natural conditions. Yet, you have no problem eating
vast quantities of meat that is raised, slaughtered, packaged and sold under
entirely unnatural conditions previously unknown to humanity.

>Someone who never got fat in the first place should not eat a pile of
>bananas twice the size of their head because that much fruit will give
>them the runs.  Someone already fat and carb sensative should avoid the
>first banana during their loss phases and possibly even during
>maintenance depending on how carb sensative they are.

Finally, you're talking sense.

Orlando
Billy - 21 Apr 2010 23:18 GMT
> It highly depends on each individual. For some, fruit consumption does not
> impede weight loss and is therefore not harmful. For others, even one bite of
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> followed
> for years.

Check your BG, and only eat fruit that are in season-ish.
Signature

- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

trader4@optonline.net - 22 Apr 2010 13:47 GMT
> >All well and good for those who never got fat in the first place.
> >Getting fat in the first place changes the situation.  What once was
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> Orlando

One major factor that you are overlooking here is that in terms of
carbs, today's banana has little resemblence to the banana of 5,000
years ago.   The same is true with virtually every other fruit.
Today's fruits have been bred by man to be sweeter, bigger, tastier,
disease resistant, etc and in terms of the evolution clock, that has
essentially just happened.  That changes everything.  They are higher
in carbs and second, it's far easier to eat a whole lot of them
because they taste good.   If you were presented with many of the
fruits from 5,000+ years ago today, you would likely spit most of them
out.  Did you ever taste a wild grape versus today's seedless?

Also, how many fruits do you think were readily available to man?
Some were available occasionally, for brief periods, seasonally.
Those were the ones that didn't succumb to insects, disease, getting
eaten by wild animals, etc.   Today we have supermarkets stocked with
the sweetest fruits imaginable available year round.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you can't have some fruit
on a LC diet. And the better your choices as to which fruits, the more
you can have.    But as others have done the math, that one fruit
smoothie contains close to an entire days worth of carbs for many
people on maintenance.  A far better choice in terms of carb count
would be a cup of strawberries with some whipped cream on top.
Doug Freyburger - 22 Apr 2010 17:19 GMT
>> By the same token, we should not eat meat without first chasing and hunting it.
>> I love your double standard. When I suggest that fruits are entirely natural
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> One major factor that you are overlooking here

What's missing to me is the fact that the OP is in the first couple of
weeks but when I took that into account the reason was maintenance or
later in the loss phases.  Early on nearly every plan is stricter so my
discussion started based on that fact.  The context of the OP matters.

> is that in terms of
> carbs, today's banana has little resemblence to the banana of 5,000
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> eaten by wild animals, etc.   Today we have supermarkets stocked with
> the sweetest fruits imaginable available year round.

I agree with Orlando Enrique Fiol on the issue of farmed products.
Ranched animals are also farmed products and that needs to be taken into
account.  Human evolution is a varied and uncertain story.  About 5
million years ago we went from tree dwelling apes with a high percentage
of fruit for calories through a transition to the peak predator on the
planet spread somewhere across that next 5 million years, to a herding
species under 50K years ago who ate a much less varied list of prey
animals to a farming species under 20K years ago who ate far more grain
than was good for us, to an industrial junk food species in the last
couple of centuries.  Since it takes around 5 million years of steady
diet to evolve it to optimal and humans have not had that, humans don't
have any optimal diet.  But the closest we have to it is hunter gatherer
cultures who eat varied lean hunted meats, who walk several hours per
day and who eat wildly varying plant foods across the year.

Herding across the millenia went from keeping wild herds for food to
breeding herds for docility to breeding herds for fat and only in the
last century to breeding herds for lean.  The level of fat in regularly
accessible meats does not match the ancient approximation for the
evolutionary optimal that doesn't exist - That's a lot of levels of
approximation.  So is more or less fat better?  Probably less, and
definitely grass fed not grain fed.  The modern movement for grass fed
leaner meats is a good idea.

So why do I stress high fat percentage then?  Because hunter gatherer
society members spend nearly their entire lives hungry and they are
hungry because they have no choice in the matter.  They walk several
hours per day because they have no choice in the matter.  A modern
person has the option to not be hungry except at specific times, and a
modern person has the option of doing so little exercise they get sick
from lack of it.

Thus I do the arithmetic of estimating total calories to lose without
being hungry, the expected best levels of protein grams, the common
optimal levels of carb grams for loss or maintenance, and then the rest
of the calories come from fat.  The result is food with a high
percentage of calories from fat.  It doesn't match the evolutionary
argument and it's right to question the point.  It is a double standard
and it does have to be explained.  Anyone wishing to live the hunter
gatherer life style will be able to do better than the way I describe
low carbing by chosing to be dirt poor, stressed and hungry nearly every
day of their lives.

In fact there are longevity issues that suggest once the weight has been
lost to go back to the lower carb levels of the loss phases and also
taper down the fat intake.  How to do that without endless hunger is an
open topic - The monkeys in reduced calorie lifespan studies are clearly
hungry every minute of every day and night.  Are their lives really
longer or do they just seem longer for the extra hunger?  It looks like
both.

> I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you can't have some fruit
> on a LC diet. And the better your choices as to which fruits, the more
> you can have.    But as others have done the math, that one fruit
> smoothie contains close to an entire days worth of carbs for many
> people on maintenance.  A far better choice in terms of carb count
> would be a cup of strawberries with some whipped cream on top.

Also early on nearly every plan is lower carb and the OP
mikesmith9999@hotmail.com is in the first month of a restart.  What carb
grams to have during maintenance is not today's topic yet.
Billy - 22 Apr 2010 18:16 GMT
> About 5
> million years ago we went from tree dwelling apes with a high percentage
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> cultures who eat varied lean hunted meats, who walk several hours per
> day and who eat wildly varying plant foods across the year.

I've read many accounts that hunter gatherers spent less than 20 hr./wk
in foraging food. I'm sure some spent more. Some spent less. Where does
this 50K for herding come from? It's news to me. 10K ago is the usual
number given for the beginning of agriculture. The industrial revolution
started about 300 years ago, but junk food made from ubiquitous white,
wheat flour is only about a century old and only wide spread in the last
50 years.
Signature

- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy - 22 Apr 2010 18:33 GMT
In article
<wildbilly-4CE467.10162922042010@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au>,

> > About 5
> > million years ago we went from tree dwelling apes with a high percentage
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> wheat flour is only about a century old and only wide spread in the last
> 50 years.

I forgot to mention Le Roque St. Christoph, continuously occupied for
50,000 years!
http://www.roque-st-christophe.com/#
Signature

- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

trader4@optonline.net - 22 Apr 2010 19:59 GMT
> In article <hqpsuk$73...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> in foraging food. I'm sure some spent more. Some spent less. Where does
> this 50K for herding come from?

I'd also like to know where the 20 hrs/wk foraging for hunter
gatherers came from.   Most likely, it's pure speculation and totally
unreliable, because obviously no one could know for sure.  Or did they
punch clocks back then?

>It's news to me. 10K ago is the usual
> number given for the beginning of agriculture. The industrial revolution
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUghttp://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn
/HZinn_page.html
Doug Freyburger - 22 Apr 2010 20:55 GMT
>> About 5
>> million years ago we went from tree dwelling apes with a high percentage
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I've read many accounts that hunter gatherers spent less than 20 hr./wk
> in foraging food. I'm sure some spent more. Some spent less.

I remember the same from my lower division undergraduate anthropolgy
courses.  It didn't account for the several hours walked per day.  Much
of that walking is the result of nomadic movements.

The book NeanderThin by Ray Audette is one of several books on
paleolithic dieting.  In it he suggests an exercise program that mimics
a hunter gatherer exercise program.  Some days have long walks, others
intense games all in a time frame long enough that the body does not
settle into a routine.  He suggests falconry as a good hobby, too.  That
sounds like fun/

> Where does this 50K for herding come from? It's news to me.

It's a wild extrapolation on my part based on estimates that dogs may
have started their domestication process longer ago than that, on
extinctions spanning anywhere from that long ago to more recent than the
glacier retreats, on the degree of domestication suggested by the furs
worn by "Otsi the iceman".  It's not hard to find suggestions that
animal husbandry is a lot older than plant argiculture so I got very
aggressive in a guees.

> 10K ago is the usual
> number given for the beginning of agriculture.

But it might have been as far back as 20K in a few regions of the world.
And animal husbandry is an unknown amount older.

> The industrial revolution
> started about 300 years ago, but junk food made from ubiquitous white,
> wheat flour is only about a century old and only wide spread in the last
> 50 years.

It's the evolutionary source for a claim that certain of the highest
sugar fruits aren't beneficial in this thread.
Billy - 22 Apr 2010 21:19 GMT
> >> About 5
> >> million years ago we went from tree dwelling apes with a high percentage
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> But it might have been as far back as 20K in a few regions of the world.
> And animal husbandry is an unknown amount older.
I don't think so. Mesopotamia, site of the civilizations of Akkad,
Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria, is our first positive example of a
societies based on agriculture (Fertile Crescent and all that).

> > The industrial revolution
> > started about 300 years ago, but junk food made from ubiquitous white,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It's the evolutionary source for a claim that certain of the highest
> sugar fruits aren't beneficial in this thread.

High carb foods were seasonal though, not like high carb "snacks" which
are always present.
Signature

- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Bill who putters - 22 Apr 2010 23:17 GMT
In article
<wildbilly-C86384.13194622042010@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au>,

> > >> About 5
> > >> million years ago we went from tree dwelling apes with a high percentage
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> High carb foods were seasonal though, not like high carb "snacks" which
> are always present.
If there is wisdom in eating by the season then so simple a option may
be of import.  Take stuff with labels out and soft drinks and our margin
of error that hurts bnot only T's may be reduced as well.  Easy to say
but necessary to regain health.  
My guess is try to eat what you can grow or someone 1000 miles a way
and then try to find tune it via local production.
 Oh but my Manchengo is from Spain....But it special and a rare treat .

Sounds like this is a wreck gardens issue but they are connected.

Signature

  Bill   Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Roger Zoul - 21 Apr 2010 01:43 GMT
Leave off the bananas. Try blueberries and strawberries.

> I almost felt asleep in the bus within an hour after having a smoothie
> made of banana and strawberries. Coincidence or is it my insuline? We
> are bombarbed in the media with the "Fruits are great for you""
> messages. If they are, then why are they killing me like this?
Ophelia - 21 Apr 2010 16:33 GMT
That's a relief!  I am becoming addicted to blueberries:)  In small amounts
I hasten to add!

err if I am permitted to add comment to these esteemed posters?

> Leave off the bananas. Try blueberries and strawberries.
>
>> I almost felt asleep in the bus within an hour after having a smoothie
>> made of banana and strawberries. Coincidence or is it my insuline? We
>> are bombarbed in the media with the "Fruits are great for you""
>> messages. If they are, then why are they killing me like this?

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