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Oh Nuts!

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jay - 01 Aug 2010 01:16 GMT
I had been following a loCarb, loProtein diet. But in the last week, I
started eating nearly a packet (8oz) of nuts (either almonds or
macadamias) per day, along with a piece of chicken now and then; and
gained 5 lbs! How do I stop craving those tasty macadamias? They are
addictive!

Has anyone tried high-oleic sunflower or macadamia oil as a major part
of their diet? (Currently I use about 9 TBS of clarified butter per
day)
DeAnn - 01 Aug 2010 10:18 GMT
> I had been following a loCarb, loProtein diet. But in the last week, I
> started eating nearly a packet (8oz) of nuts (either almonds or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of their diet? (Currently I use about 9 TBS of clarified butter per
> day)

I find that when I am really craving something, it is because my body
needs some nutrient.  For example, my diet cravings tend to be either
ice cream, spinach or liver.  The spinach and liver I just eat, as it
is hard for me to go toooooo wrong eathing those.  For the ice cream,
I drink low fat milk, skim milk and take more calcium.

You might try switching to another diet (say just calorie controlled
or Atkins or Ornish) for a few days every so often to let your body
take in whatever it is craving without giving up dieting completely.

your diet also is extreme, as I am sure you know and all your friends
have said, so, well, rotating in some other methods could help a lot.
jay - 01 Aug 2010 21:50 GMT
> I find that when I am really craving something, it is because my body
> needs some nutrient.  

Hmm. I hadn't considered this. I usually try to ignore cravings. Maybe
that is not always good.

> For example, my diet cravings tend to be either
> ice cream, spinach or liver.  The spinach and liver I just eat, as it
> is hard for me to go toooooo wrong eathing those.  For the ice cream,
> I drink low fat milk, skim milk and take more calcium.

Why low-fat/skim milk? (It is low in fat and high in carbs)

> You might try switching to another diet (say just calorie controlled
> or Atkins or Ornish) for a few days every so often to let your body
> take in whatever it is craving without giving up dieting completely.

I could do Atkins but Ornish? Wouldn't that involve re-experiencing
headaches and sluggishness when switching back to low carbs?

> your diet also is extreme, as I am sure you know and all your friends
> have said, so, well, rotating in some other methods could help a lot.

Another good idea. I could join fellow workers on some of their
frequent runs to the local burger joints. What do I do with the buns :)
DeAnn - 02 Aug 2010 01:32 GMT
> Why low-fat/skim milk? (It is low in fat and high in carbs)
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I could do Atkins but Ornish? Wouldn't that involve re-experiencing
> headaches and sluggishness when switching back to low carbs?

 I was thinking more lots and lots of veggies and very lean protein
for Ornish (a diet more or less opposite to what you are on and so
where you might find what you are 'missing')--not wolfing down whole
wheat pasta and whole wheat bread and innitiating a sugar rush then
insulin crash.

BTW, there is an interesting video from Stanford U on comparing diets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo
jay - 03 Aug 2010 03:53 GMT
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo

Very interesting presentation, especially coming from a veteran
vegetarian. Atkins improved all risk factors the most: -weight, -BP, -
LDL, -TG and +HDL. He did try to explain it away by saying people on
Atkins drank the most water which can reduce appetite.
Doug Freyburger - 04 Aug 2010 15:56 GMT
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo
>
> Very interesting presentation, especially coming from a veteran
> vegetarian. Atkins improved all risk factors the most: -weight, -BP, -
> LDL, -TG and +HDL.

It should come as no surprise that a diet that stresses roughly
equal portions of fresh meat and fresh veggies as the primary
food, with smaller amounts of fruits, dairy, eggs and nuts, is an
extremely healthy diet.  Humans are evolutionary omnivores who
are the top predator on the planet so we have not had time to
evolve into an optimal diet so eating with our omnivore digestive
tract in mind will yield good health with very little effort other
than
an eye to variety and freshness.

The level of effort for Atkins or other low carb plans isn't that high
once you get used to it.  What meat is on sale today?  Have
that one as long as you've had other types recently.  What
vegetable is sale today (including roots while on maintenance)?
Have that one as long as you've had other types recently.  Also
have a salad.  Done.  It actually can get that simple if you want
to focus on simple, though it gets pretty dull doing it that simply
for a long time span.

Being a veteran vegetarian you're used to putting in a lot more
effort towards balancing nutrients than is necessary on a low
carb meat-and-veggies based system.  All three macronutrient
types basically take care of themselves just by having some
variety in types of meat and veggies.
FOB - 02 Aug 2010 16:02 GMT
Feed them to the birds or squirrels.

| Another good idea. I could join fellow workers on some of their
| frequent runs to the local burger joints. What do I do with the buns
| :)
Doug Freyburger - 02 Aug 2010 21:38 GMT
Discussed elsewhere in the thread - water retention.  Bouncing up 5
pounds in a week without going high calorie should not be viewed as a
gain.  Are you really doing this to lose fat or to make the number on
the scale lower?  It's not really about the number on the scale when
you really think about it - So if it's impossible for what you ate to
have been stored as new fat then what happened on the scale is not
important.  This is a point that is extremely hard to sink in - Neither
water nor salt is fat and efforts to reduce water or salt weight are a
distraction that can't ever have any benefit towards losing more fat.
It takes your eye off what the ball really is, to lose fat.

>> I find that when I am really craving something, it is because my body
>> needs some nutrient.  
>
> Hmm. I hadn't considered this. I usually try to ignore cravings. Maybe
> that is not always good.

A craving can be a part of a pattern of addictive behavior.  A craving
can be a sign that you are deficient in an important nutrient.  It's
important to be able to tell them apart.  One's a problem and the other
is beneficial.

First guess is a problem reaction.  Here's what I do to tell if I have
problems doing portion control on a food.  I make a bowl of it and eat
about half.  Then I set the bowl next to me and watch a TV show for an
hour.  After the show is over I see how much is left.  If I haven't
touched that food it tells me I probably don't have a problem over
eating it.  If the bowl is empty and I don't remember eating it it tells
me that food triggers a behavioral problem.  There's plenty of gray
scale between those two extremes.  In this case I tried cashews and they
were gone.  Then I tried pecans, hazel/filberts and walnuts and I didn't
touch them.  So now I tend to keep pecans, hazels/filberts and walnuts
on hand and not get cashews.

Second guess is a beneficial reaction.  You wrote that you are avoiding
both carbs and protein.  What's your typical protein intake?  If you eat
too little protein your body will start craving protein foods and nuts
are protein foods.  If you're typically eating 50-100 grams of protein
per day it's doubtful you are triggering starvation cravings.  Below
that you should look for the book Protein Power by Drs Eades and work
through the directions to figure out your daily minimum protein grams.

>> For example, my diet cravings tend to be either
>> ice cream, spinach or liver.  The spinach and liver I just eat, as it
>> is hard for me to go toooooo wrong eathing those.  For the ice cream,
>> I drink low fat milk, skim milk and take more calcium.
>
> Why low-fat/skim milk? (It is low in fat and high in carbs)

That's the argument against low fat milk.  It's got more lactose and
less fat.  Skim milk can be viewed as the waste product of cream
production.  But when you're counting calories the fat in cream adds up
and as long as you have the carb grams to spare milk is as good a source
as any non-veggie food.

>> your diet also is extreme, as I am sure you know and all your friends
>> have said, so, well, rotating in some other methods could help a lot.
>
> Another good idea. I could join fellow workers on some of their
> frequent runs to the local burger joints. What do I do with the buns :)

The buns go where the paper wrappers go, in the trash.  You can even use
the buns as stand-offs to keep your hands from getting greasy.  I often
order a burger without cheese not to reduce calories but to reduce the
mess.
jay - 03 Aug 2010 04:26 GMT
> ... I tried cashews and they were gone.  
> Then I tried pecans, hazel/filberts and walnuts and I didn't
> touch them.  So now I tend to keep pecans, hazels/filberts and walnuts
> on hand and not get cashews.

It's funny you mentioned cashews as it is the first thing I would
devour at our health food store, if I were accidentally locked in
there overnight.

> ... If you're typically eating 50-100 grams of protein
> per day it's doubtful you are triggering starvation cravings.  Below
> that you should look for the book Protein Power by Drs Eades and work
> through the directions to figure out your daily minimum protein grams.

While not a strategy for the long run, I was trying to see what a 5%
protein diet would do. I lost a bit of muscle mass. I suspect, it was
the protein (esp from chicken) and the carbs from nuts that catapulted
my weight.
trader4@optonline.net - 04 Aug 2010 18:30 GMT
> > ... I tried cashews and they were gone.  
> > Then I tried pecans, hazel/filberts and walnuts and I didn't
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> the protein (esp from chicken) and the carbs from nuts that catapulted
> my weight.

Since your diet is low carb and low protein, you must be eating fat.
Instead of worrying about what's happening from eating some nuts while
on a diet that is unsustainable anyway, I'd be focused on a sound,
proven diet strategy that works.  For me, that's Atkins.
jay - 04 Aug 2010 19:35 GMT
> > ... I was trying to see what a 5% protein diet would do...
>
> Since your diet is low carb and low protein, you must be eating fat.

A horrifying amount, according to friends and family. One says, clog
within a year. I only have 7 more months to live!

> Instead of worrying about what's happening from eating some nuts while
> on a diet that is unsustainable anyway, I'd be focused on a sound,
> proven diet strategy that works.  For me, that's Atkins.

You are right, many studies with Atkins have shown favorable results.
And it does seem that, at around 5% protein, the body is eager for
more. (Have you looked into the pluses and minuses of the Ketogenic
Diet?)
FOB - 01 Aug 2010 15:49 GMT
At least part of that weight could be water retention because the nuts are
salty.  Eight oz of almonds is also 1377 calories, 125 g fat, 16 net carbs.
Too many nuts.  You need to exercise some portion control here.  I'm
concerned about your low protein, how low is low?   You really need a
minimum amount depending on your size and activity level.  You can calculate
it here http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/diet.html

| I had been following a loCarb, loProtein diet. But in the last week, I
| started eating nearly a packet (8oz) of nuts (either almonds or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
| of their diet? (Currently I use about 9 TBS of clarified butter per
| day)
jay - 01 Aug 2010 22:29 GMT
> At least part of that weight could be water retention
> because the nuts are salty.

I wondered about that too. I normally don't have any salt so I might
be extra suspectible to it. The macadamias were raw and unsalted. The
almonds were raw but blanched. But the chicken drumsticks that I
bought, I returned after eat two because they were salty even though
the package said nothing about salt solution being added. Apparently,
with the blessing of the USDA,  "Natural" chicken can contain water,
upto 15% salt solution, carrageenan (a seaweed extract) or broth!
(http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Chicken-producers-debate-
apf-449083209.html) I  replaced the drumsticks with a whole chicken by
Sanderson Farms which states "Ours is always a single ingredient
product: 100% natural chicken". It was much lower in sodium (but I
could still detect some).

> Eight oz of almonds is also 1377 calories, 125 g fat, 16 net carbs.
> Too many nuts.  You need to exercise some portion control here.  

On day I had 10 oz of macadamias. According to the packet, that would
be 2010 calories. Oh my! On lo-carb, these nuts taste just as sweet as
candy.

> I'm concerned about your low protein, how low is low?   You really need
> a minimum amount depending on your size and activity level.  
> You can calculate it herehttp://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/diet.html

That link told me
BMI:   17.2
Percent Body Fat:    10.3%
Lean Body Mass:    105.8 lb
Underweight by 4.0 kilograms (8.8 pounds).
Consume at least 2251 calories per day.
Your diet should contain at least 85 grams of protein per day.

Prior to the nut binge and chicken, I was eating approximately 40g of
plant protein from zucchini, chayote, lettuce, celery and chocolate.
Doug Freyburger - 04 Aug 2010 16:09 GMT
> > Eight oz of almonds is also 1377 calories, 125 g fat, 16 net carbs.
> > Too many nuts.  You need to exercise some portion control here.  
>
> On day I had 10 oz of macadamias. According to the packet, that would
> be 2010 calories. Oh my! On lo-carb, these nuts taste just as sweet as
> candy.

New fat is 3500-4500 calories per pound.  There's no way you stored
any new fat at all if you stayed under maybe 100 grams of carb that
day.  It takes either enough insulin to push fat into storage or a
much
larger overload than that to force fat into storage against the
pressure
from low insulin.

> That link told me
> BMI:   17.2
> Percent Body Fat:    10.3%
> Lean Body Mass:    105.8 lb
> Underweight by 4.0 kilograms (8.8 pounds).

And a lot of those programs run about 10 pounds under what works
best so you could bounce up 20 without any ill effects at all other
than being less hungry less often.

> Consume at least 2251 calories per day.
> Your diet should contain at least 85 grams of protein per day.
>
> Prior to the nut binge and chicken, I was eating approximately 40g of
> plant protein from zucchini, chayote, lettuce, celery and chocolate.

Most of the protein estimates are generous not only to make
sure there are enough of all of the essential amino acids without
tracking by type, by also to keep the protein high enough that there
are no protein cravings.

You would have needed to track amino acids by type to avoid
protein cravings eating 40g per day but long term vegetarians
usually follow a system that does do that.

I'm going with it being a "beneficial" craving that you don't agree
with.  You're listed as underweight so your body chemistry will
set hormone levels to be ready to eat more.  Your long term low
protein intake may have been tuned for health but our bodies aren't
evolved for that level of sophistication.  I think you fed your body
an
unaccustomed high protein food and it triggered appetite hormones
that drove you to eat more.  When it comes to hormones your
body concluded a surplus was available and it needed to eat right
now.  I get not agreeing with a sudden drive to eat like that, but
that's my theory on why it happened.

Atkins and other low carb plans say nuts are good.  The bounce on
the scale was water not fat.  You don't agree with what happened
but it was towards the center of "all is well" as far as low carb
plans go.
jay - 04 Aug 2010 19:13 GMT
> New fat is 3500-4500 calories per pound. There's no way you stored
> any new fat at all if you stayed under maybe 100 grams of carb that
> day.  It takes either enough insulin to push fat into storage or a
> much larger overload than that to force fat into storage against the
> pressure from low insulin.

The 8oz packet of macs had 16 net carbs. The 8oz packet of almonds had
24g net carbs. I may have added 16 or 24g of carbs per day for a while
on top of those from veggies. So I don't think, I got 100g per day.

> ... I think you fed your body an
> unaccustomed high protein food and it triggered appetite hormones
> that drove you to eat more.  When it comes to hormones your
> body concluded a surplus was available and it needed to eat right
> now.  I get not agreeing with a sudden drive to eat like that, but
> that's my theory on why it happened.

I think, this may be the better explanation. Thx.
Do you think it is safe to cycle in and out of consuming sufficient
level of protein? If you wanted to, how would you implement it?
Doug Freyburger - 05 Aug 2010 18:07 GMT
> Do you think it is safe to cycle in and out of consuming sufficient
> level of protein? If you wanted to, how would you implement it?

It depends on what you mean by safe and sufficient.  You are currently
doing an experiment at near half the normal minimum recommended protein
grams so unless you're paying close attention to the individual amino
acid counts you're now below the safe threshold.  Even with counting the
individual amino acids it's unlikely you could cut your protein intake
any more safely.

If you mean alternating your current experiment with a plan with around
twice as many protein grams, as long as you are currently counting by
individual amino acid type, it should be okay.  Your current system
takes a lot more work than any system that uses meat for protein.

Body builders often alternate between low carb and low fat plans.  It's
effective at pushing their body fat percentage lower than can be done
with simpler means.  Being already underweight I don't see how some sort
of parallel strategy based on alternating protein levels could benefit
you.  Driving your body fat lower is not going to benefit you.

What I do to control protein intake doesn't apply to you.  I do not
sometimes to drive fat out of storage without changing my total
calories.  I trade larger portions of lean meats for smaller portions of
fatty meats for about the same total calories.  That reduces excess
protein calories burnt as fuel in exchange for excess fat calories burnt
as fuel.  It sounds like a net zero if you don't know that leptin pulls
fat from storage to drive basal metabolism.  But even doing that I
bottom out at twice your current protein grams so I don't have any need
to count individual amino acids grams.
Robert Miles - 01 Aug 2010 17:12 GMT
> I had been following a loCarb, loProtein diet. But in the last week, I
> started eating nearly a packet (8oz) of nuts (either almonds or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of their diet? (Currently I use about 9 TBS of clarified butter per
> day)

I haven't, but have been eating significant amounts of walnuts
lately to make sure I get enough omega-3 fatty acids. (There
are other sources that require you to cook or to have a
refrigerator;  I don't use those much.)  I've read that the
movement toward low-fat diets has resulted in many people
getting enough omega-6 but not enough omega-3 (both
essential polyunsaturated fatty acids).

Following a low-carb diet seems to help control both my
diabetes and my appetite.

Oleic acid is a monounsaturated fatty acid; I've read that
those improve your health but aren't essential.

Robert Miles
jay - 01 Aug 2010 22:38 GMT
> ... I've read that the
> movement toward low-fat diets has resulted in many people
> getting enough omega-6 but not enough omega-3 (both
> essential polyunsaturated fatty acids).

I guess if I am going to indulge, I might as well throw some walnuts
in the mix for their omega-3's. Thanks.

> Following a low-carb diet seems to help control both my
> diabetes and my appetite.

Yup, apparently exceeding some magical number of carbs throws my
hunger in high gear.
Doug Freyburger - 04 Aug 2010 15:29 GMT
> > Following a low-carb diet seems to help control both my
> > diabetes and my appetite.
>
> Yup, apparently exceeding some magical number of carbs throws my
> hunger in high gear.

The lack of carb cravings on a low carb diet may be the single
biggest advantage in all of diet-land.  Carb cravings are intense
but they go away completely after the body's "carb tank" empties.
Unfortunately it's a lot easier to turn the cravings back on than
it is to turn them off - It can happen with as little as a single high
carb meal if the type of carbs is chosen poorly.

When you do the numbers a low carb plan is going to be high
fat.  Avoiding carbs tends to mean replacing some/most/all with
fat calories.  Fat cravings are mild but they never go away.  It's
what gradually drives so many people off of low fat plans.  While
low carbing there are no fat cravings either.  Fortunately a few
days of avoiding fat isn't generally enough to trigger fat cravings
but there are people who don't do the arithmetic, don't believe
the directions, who do avoid fat also and end up with fat cravings.
 
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