 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsGeneral TopicsLow CarbWeightWatchers WeightAdviser.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004Study:High protein intake sustains weight maintenance after body weight loss in humans
This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590 > This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 > 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590> http://tinyurl.com/yr8cw for article. ::: This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 ::: 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590> :: :: http://tinyurl.com/yr8cw for article. when you place a link inside the <> you can just click on it within your browser...no need to cut and paste.... I got that tidbit from someone here in this newsgroup just today.... tinyurl's expire... > ::: This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 > ::: 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590> > :: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > tinyurl's expire... It did not work for me. I'm using IE 6. ::: Dean S. Lautermilch????? wrote: :::::: This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 :::::: 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590> ::::: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] :: :: It did not work for me. I'm using IE 6. Me too....and it works here!?! (quoting someone whose citation I've lost). >> when you place a link inside the <> you can just click on it within >> your browser...no need to cut and paste.... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > It did not work for me. I'm using IE 6. I don't think it works for URL's that wrap. You get the same problem. It's my understanding that tinyurl does not retire any of its URLs. Has that changed? Chakolate  SignatureYou might as well fall flat on your face as lean over too far backward. --James Thurber :: "Dean S. Lautermilch?????" <ftlbard@bellsouth.SPAMFREE.net> wrote in :: news:vvos3jq8to4b9b@news.supernews.com: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] :: I don't think it works for URL's that wrap. You get the same :: problem. that's what its for (supposedly). Did you try it? :: It's my understanding that tinyurl does not retire any of its URLs. :: Has that changed? It's my understanding that they do. Is that not true? >:: I don't think it works for URL's that wrap. You get the same >:: problem. > >that's what its for (supposedly). Did you try it? Doesn't work in Agent when the line wraps. >:: It's my understanding that tinyurl does not retire any of its URLs. >:: Has that changed? > >It's my understanding that they do. Is that not true? From the website: " By entering in a URL in the text field below, we will create a tiny URL that will not break in email postings and never expires." >when you place a link inside the <> you can just click on it within your >browser...no need to cut and paste.... Doesn't work for me; half is hyperlink and half is plain text. Susan :: x-no-archive: yes :: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: :: Susan Must be an OE thing. Dammit! I finally gave in and got OE QuoteFix, it keeps URLs from breaking up and makes plain text messages easier to read. http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ In news:vvpan3jrbp43e6@corp.supernews.com, Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> stated ||| x-no-archive: yes ||| [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | | Must be an OE thing. Dammit! Hmm....I use OE QuoteFix on all my machines....I wonder if that's why the <> work for me? :: I finally gave in and got OE QuoteFix, it keeps URLs from breaking :: up and makes plain text messages easier to read. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] ::: ::: Must be an OE thing. Dammit! Same here, using Netscape. I had to resort to cut/paste. > >when you place a link inside the <> you can just click on it within your > >browser...no need to cut and paste.... > > Doesn't work for me; half is hyperlink and half is plain text. Roger, Interesting sounding, but the description of the study made it unclear to me what was really happening. How did they add the extra protein? Were they eating packaged foods supplied by the study as happens in some nutritional studies? Were they eating whatever they wanted? The original diet is described only as "extremely low calorie" with no indication of the nutritional breakdown and whether it lead to cannibalisation of the dieter's own body protein. The diet was also very short, only a couple weeks. Generalizing from this study to what happens when low carbers go off their diet, might be a mistake. The effect of eating a lot of carbohydrate after a long period of carb restriction might result in a much bigger weight gain no matter how much protein intake accompanies it. We could only know if a study was done with long term (not 3 week) low carb dieters. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 > 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590 > Interesting sounding, but the description of the study made it unclear > to me what was really happening. > > How did they add the extra protein? Were they eating packaged foods > supplied by the study as happens in some nutritional studies? Were > they eating whatever they wanted? If you follow the link at the bottom of the page labelled full text, you get answers to most of your questions: (quote) To one of the groups, 48.2 g additional protein/day was provided as one sachet of a meal replacer (Modifast)/day (17 g protein; 0.7 MJ/day) plus two sachets of protein (31.2 g; protein source Ca-caseinate; 0.5 MJ/day), to be dissolved in water resulting in two vanilla-drinks. This amounted together to 1.2 MJ/day. Subjects were required to consume the meal replacer and one protein drink as part of their ad libitum lunch, and one protein drink in the afternoon. This way we aimed at an EI of 18-20 percentage energy from protein/day. Although the treatment with respect to number of visits, measurements, and attention was identical in both groups of subjects, there was no placebo used for the additional protein, similar to previous meal-replacement studies.28 We included the measurements of dietary restraint to check whether additional protein to the diet would affect attitude toward eating. (end of quote) chakolate SignatureYou might as well fall flat on your face as lean over too far backward. --James Thurber :: Roger, :: :: Interesting sounding, but the description of the study made it :: unclear to me what was really happening. Interesting, period. :: How did they add the extra protein? Were they eating packaged foods :: supplied by the study as happens in some nutritional studies? Were :: they eating whatever they wanted? That's because you only read the abstract. You need to click on the link for the PDF to get the full paper. :: The original diet is described only as "extremely low calorie" with :: no indication of the nutritional breakdown and whether it lead to :: cannibalisation of the dieter's own body protein. The diet was also :: very short, only a couple weeks. Read the paper.....the diet was Modifast and fruits and Veggies....the aim was a loss of 4kg over 4 weeks (more than a couple). :: Generalizing from this study to what happens when low carbers go off :: their diet, might be a mistake. No one has generalized....it is an interesting study since it seems to indicate that increased protein intake after dieting impacts satiety and weight retain...that ought to be interesting anyone wanting to lose weight and maintain that weight loss, whether there is a take-home message of practical value has not been addressed, afaik. :: The effect of eating a lot of carbohydrate after a long period of :: carb restriction might result in a much bigger weight gain no matter :: how much protein intake accompanies it. We could only know if a :: study was done with long term (not 3 week) low carb dieters. Eating a lot of carbs will cause quick water weight gain....and if LC dieters return to eating lots of carbs over the long term, and as a result return to eating excessive amounts of calories, they will regain weight. Eating lots of carbs is the obvious path to failure for most people who are able lose well on LC. In my mind, there are no questions about that. And we knew that before the results of this study became known. Also, what is done in this study is not something that can be really hoisted off onto the general LCing public, from what I can tell. They can't be depended on to have a clue as to how to properly implement this kind of thing. What should be paid attention to is what the general results are relative to this one macro-nutritient. Interesting. :: -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 :: diabetes, hba1c 5.2. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] :: ::: This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 ::: 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590 > What should be paid attention to is what the general results are >relative to this one macro-nutritient. Interesting. I agree, it was interesting, particularly the serum parameters, IMO. Thanks, Roger. Susan Roger, Eating more calories is not the only reason for fast weight gain after ending a low carb diet. High carbs after a low carb diet push blood sugar up. This causes insulin spiking, and the high levels of insulin cause fat to be deposited in the cells. Rereading Bernstein this week, I noted that he says that even when people are extremely insulin resistant and their insulin in not pushing glucose into cells, it is still very actively turning circulating circulating triglycerides into fat. On a low carb diet, circulating triglycerides are also very low. But as soon as you eat more carbs, you also start producing much higher amounts of triglyceride. When you do brief carb-ups as you do, in conjunction with a lot of exercise, you probably burn off most of the excess carb and the insulin builds muscle, which is your goal. But carb up day after day after day and the insulin/triglyceride thing will start catching up with you. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > :: Roger, > :: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > :: > ::: This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 > ::: 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590 :: Roger, :: :: Eating more calories is not the only reason for fast weight gain :: after ending a low carb diet. Well, eating excessive calories generally leads to weight gain. Are you excluding this situation? :: High carbs after a low carb diet push blood sugar up. This causes :: insulin spiking, and the high levels of insulin cause fat to be :: deposited in the cells. That's mainly what I'm talking about -- lot of carbs on a regular basis has to lead to trouble. Not questoin. :: Rereading Bernstein this week, I noted that he says that even when :: people are extremely insulin resistant and their insulin in not [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] :: after day and the insulin/triglyceride thing will start catching up :: with you. For the extremely insulin resistant, yes (which is one reason for resistance training, since it is well known to lower insulin resistance). However, I'm not convinced that the average person couldn't switch from LC to LF with calorie restriction, and not gain more than the expected water weight. If you continually undereat calories, I don't see how you can gain fat. While your body may be making fat from triglyerides during a period of time, it will also burn that to meet energy demands that aren't met by diet. :: -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 :: diabetes, hba1c 5.2. [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] ::::: :::::: This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 :::::: 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590 Roger, As you know, I agree with you totally; about calories being the major issue--especially for people with reasonable insulin resistance. But the problem I see is that we're talking about people who have stopped a diet. Let's say that they have near normal metabolisms, like I did when I was younger. If they consume the exact same number of calories they ate while on the diet, once they go off it, they may not gain assuming they can burn off the carb intake. But how many people who go off a low carb diet are going to eat the same amount of calories? Especially since having reached goal they're going to need a whole lot less calories to maintain current weight than they did before the diet, but their metabolisms are getting into "time to stock up for the next famine" mode that follows relaxing any diet. . And assuming they bump their daily carbs up to just 150-- much less than a typical US diet. That's 600 calories of carb that has to be burnt off or it does turn into triglyceride. That's a lot of exercise. There is still going to be a lot more triglyceride coming in. If they supplement with 50 grams of protein as the study suggests, well, that's a bunch more calories coming in too. Finally, the biggest problem I've seen for people coming off a low carb diet is that they have learned to eat fat but when they up the carbs, they may continue to eat more fat. Fat in the presence of carbs is instant weight regain. And all of the other health benefits of low carbing will evaporate in a few months with a return to eating a higher carb diet too. Now if a person is young and healthy, they may get away with it. I used to get by with an annual no bread, dessert, or potatos diet. BUT, though my weight stayed normal, my blood sugar (in retrospect) did not--signalled by contstant urinary tract and yeast infections and high cholesterol. So it seems like the whole idea of "ending" a low carb diet is problematical. We talk glibly about this being a "WOE" but if I had a buck for every January dieter who thinks that once he or she looks good in that bikini they can reintroduce a bunch of carbs back into their diet, I would be looking to get pretty rich. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > :: Roger, > :: [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > ::::: > :::::: This seems interesting.... <http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ijo/journal/v28/n1/abs/080 > :::::: 2461a.html&dynoptions=doi1073506590 >However, I'm >not convinced that the average person couldn't switch from LC to LF with >calorie restriction, and not gain more than the expected water weight. If >you continually undereat calories, I don't see how you can gain fat. I hear ya. I can't explain it, but before I learned I was IR, I was maintaining weight on 800 very well documented calories per day, high carb, very low fat. For months. gained on more. I'm now losing at an average of 1200-1300 per day, with very low carb, moderate fat. At higher carb levels, I maintained at 1200. I know I'm very atypical, but I think I'm just representative of how varied metabolism can be. Susan > it is an interesting study since it seems to > indicate that increased protein intake after dieting impacts satiety and > weight retain...that ought to be interesting anyone wanting to lose weight > and maintain that weight loss, whether there is a take-home message of > practical value has not been addressed, afaik. Steping straight into Atkins: The loss phases are high fat medium protein. For the exact same total calories the maintenance phase can be medium fat and high protein. Per the study both make you feel full. > Eating a lot of carbs will cause quick water weight gain....and if LC > dieters return to eating lots of carbs over the long term, and as a result > return to eating excessive amounts of calories, they will regain weight. Right. Stay at the same total calories, move your carbs up above your CCLM, start to store new fat. Doug, Protein might make you feel full. It doesn't have that effect on everyone. In my body, excess protein turns into glucose via gluconeogenesis and causes an insulin spike and an eventual reactive blood sugar low. If you haven't looked at the insulin index, it makes interesting reading. You can see that some protein foods kick off a surprisingly strong insulin response. Until I read this article I did not understand why I had an ongoing problem with low blood sugar while low carbing. http://www.zonehome.com/zlib0025.htm -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > > it is an interesting study since it seems to > > indicate that increased protein intake after dieting impacts satiety and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Right. Stay at the same total calories, move your carbs up above your > CCLM, start to store new fat. :: Doug, :: :: Protein might make you feel full. It doesn't have that effect on :: everyone. In my body, excess protein turns into glucose via :: gluconeogenesis and causes an insulin spike and an eventual reactive :: blood sugar low. Jenny -- saying proten makes one feel full and saying excess protein whatever aren't the same thing. Note that the study never mentioned whether the protein intake was in excess. Hence, what you're saying here is meaningless relative to the results of that study. :: If you haven't looked at the insulin index, it makes interesting :: reading. You can see that some protein foods kick off a surprisingly :: strong insulin response. Until I read this article I did not :: understand why I had an ongoing problem with low blood sugar while :: low carbing. http://www.zonehome.com/zlib0025.htm Why you find this surprising is surprising. Foods need to have some insulin response...if they didn't, then their nutrients wouldn't be pushed into the cells to be used. Insulin is not the death hormone. :: -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 :: diabetes, hba1c 5.2. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] ::: Right. Stay at the same total calories, move your carbs up above ::: your CCLM, start to store new fat. Roger, Insulin isn't the death hormone, however it is the fat depositing , hunger-causing hormone. My third year of low carbing was a real nightmare with continual low blood sugar attacks. I couldn't figure out what was going on because the lower my carbs went, the worse I felt. The problem back then was that I was still doing the old "eat all the protein you want" style low carb diet filled with the 12 oz portions of meat. Since I wasn't eating carbs, the insulin that generated--higher than needed for metabolising the protein because of insulin resistance, I guess--had nothing to do but push my blood sugar down. Which it did to the point where I felt like I was "hitting the wall" all the time. It's worth noting that this problem did not develop until the third year of continous low carbing. Since there are zilch studies of people at that stage we really don't know what physiological changes occur. Whatever they were, they sucked, and I felt so much better when I stopped low carbing and pushed my blood sugar back up that I figured I just had to live with the weight gain and higher blood sugars because I never again wanted to feel that sickly. I sure hope that when I hit year three time that doesn't happen. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > :: Doug, > :: [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > ::: Right. Stay at the same total calories, move your carbs up above > ::: your CCLM, start to store new fat. >Insulin isn't the death hormone, however it is the fat depositing , >hunger-causing hormone. Well, yeah and no. Hormones and neurotransmitters are extremely intimately locked together in a dance, and there's a very delicate and complex feedback loop. We don't know to what degree insulin alone is responsible. Susan > Protein might make you feel full. It doesn't have that effect on everyone. The same can be said of fat, carbs and even water. One of the reasons few folks are hungry on Atkins after the first few days is ketosis means the liver is empty of stored carbs. Carb cravings appear when the liver is partially full but disappear when it is either completely full or completely empty. The completely empty part creates a loophole of sorts. The other reason few folks are hungry on Atkins is it is a high fat plan. Fat turns down the appetite. > In my body, excess protein turns into glucose via gluconeogenesis and causes > an insulin spike and an eventual reactive blood sugar low. So now you now your body's own unique level for protein. You have learned the hard way by experiment what "excess" is for you. So an amount that is "high" for you may well be low for me. Such is life in a world where everyone is different. Good to here you've worked out this way you are out on the bell shaped curve of statics. Doug wrote: >Carb cravings appear when the liver is partially full but disappear when it is either >completely full or completely empty. The completely empty part creates >a loophole of sorts. Where do you get this? Can you point to some research (not the Atkins book which is extremely scanty on anything that backs up the claims, even the ones that are true.) In my experience, carb cravings disappear when blood sugar is maintained at a level that does not vary up and down by more than a very small amount. It's the movement of blood sugar up or down that tends to be experienced by my brain, at least, as hunger. When it's stable, I can completely forget about food. I've lived for months in a partially refilled state (with that two pounds I gain when I cross the mid-carb threshhold, but still way under the 5 lbs I gain when I really refill.) and I haven't had problems with cravings except when I do something that gets my blood sugar (or insulin) riled up. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > > Protein might make you feel full. It doesn't have that effect on everyone. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > everyone is different. Good to here you've worked out this way you are > out on the bell shaped curve of statics. > Doug wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Where do you get this? Personal experience, reading between the lines, etc. It's basic to how the appetite suppression of ketosis works. > In my experience, carb cravings disappear when blood sugar is > maintained at a level that does not vary up and down by more > than a very small amount. It's the movement of blood sugar up > or down that tends to be experienced by my brain, at least, as > hunger. Good alternate phrasing. As far as I can tell you just wrote the same thing using completely different language. Blood sugar levels and carb stored in the liver are two sides of the same coin. > I've lived for months in a partially refilled state (with that > two pounds I gain when I cross the mid-carb threshhold, but > still way under the 5 lbs I gain when I really refill.) That's not partially refilled in the liver; that's carbs stored throughout the body until it's burned off. It's part of the giant puzzle of water retention. When your liver is empty of stored glycogen, your weight will bounce about day to day. In your case as much as 5 pounds; in my case as much as 6. Get your liver to start storing carbs and the *range* of the bounce shifts, still 5 pounds, but the center of the bounce moves up. Say I'm bouncing between 190 and 196. I can have a single high carb meal and be at the top at 196. If I eat enough carbs that the liver starts storing, my range can shift to 195-201 and cravings turn on. From this I conclude, without finding specific scientific studies on it, that the entire body acts as a capacitor for carbs, and when it fills it cascades into the liver. In my case the capacitor goes from 190-196 with just regular absorbtion in the body (muscles or whatever). My description isn't certain to be correct, but it is consistant with your blood-sugar focused view. Doug, The problem with your theory, is that when I am eating a high carb diet, as long as I keep my blood sugar even, I continue not to feel hunger. Conversely, I can generate wicked cravings with a single big dose of carbs when my liver is as empty as it gets. I spent almost a year in a completely refilled state and used a medication, Precose, to keep my blood sugar from spiking. I did not have a problem with hunger as long as I used it. Precose does not metabolise in the body, but is simply an enzyme blocker. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > > Doug wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > or whatever). My description isn't certain to be correct, but it > is consistant with your blood-sugar focused view. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.