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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004

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How many carbs during Atkins induction?

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Al Neenyo - 08 Jan 2004 00:26 GMT
I'm about to start Atkins for the first time and I've a
question about the carbs allowance.  I'm reading the UK
edition of "Dr Atkins New Diet Revolution".

As far as I can see, rule 3 of the "Rules of Induction"
(page 123) is confusing and ambiguous.

On the one hand, the rule says:

   "Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate,..."

but it also says:

   "You can eat approximately 250g ... of salad..."

Q1: Well, which is it - 20g or 250g?  (Note, it doesn't
   say "You can *also* eat approximately 250g...of salad").
   The title of the recipe on page 133 suggests that
   the 20g is correct, but the recipe *content* could
   mean that it's both.

If it *is* both, then perhaps the 20g was really meant to
mean "20g of non-salad carbs".  But that can't be right because
it says of that 20g:

   "most of [it] must come in the form of salad greens
    and other vegetables"

That's confusing because "salad" and "other vegetables" are
precisely the terms used to describe the 250g block of veggies.  
So:

Q2: If it is both - i.e. if the 250g of salad (or 170g salad
   plus 80g other) is in addition to the 20g - then how exactly
   is the 20g made up?
   
And:

Q3: What does "most of which" mean - half, 90%, what?

Overall, I'd say this is a pretty bad start for this Atkins bloke.  
I mean, isn't the level of carbs one of the *core* aspects of his
program?  Isn't getting that level sufficiently low a *vital*
component?  Good grief, if he can't get such a crucial part
of his ideas down in clear and simple terms, it doesn't
bode well for his science and logic.

(That said, I'm still gonna try it :-)

.
- 08 Jan 2004 00:32 GMT
| I'm about to start Atkins for the first time and I've a
| question about the carbs allowance.  I'm reading the UK
| edition of "Dr Atkins New Diet Revolution".

It's 20g *total* carbohydrates for the day.  This includes all foods
consumed, including the salad that you mentioned along with all other
vegetables, meats and dairy products.
Signature

Peter
website:  http://users.thelink.net/marengo

Lady o' the house - 08 Jan 2004 00:40 GMT
> I'm about to start Atkins for the first time and I've a
> question about the carbs allowance.  I'm reading the UK
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> .
I think your confusion is over carbohydrate count (in grams) and measurement
of veggies.  The two are different.  Here in the states, the book reads that
you can have 2 to 3 measuring cups of 'salad' veggies (lettuce and the
like).  If you want, you can restrict your salad portion to 2 measuring cups
and have 1 cup of a higher carb count veggie (tomato, green beans, cabbage,
etc.)  The total carb count per day on induction is 20 gm.

I just checked my measuring cup and it has 240mL to 1 measuring cup.

Does this help?

Linda
Diane Mancino - 08 Jan 2004 01:16 GMT
The 20 grams of carbs is a definite thing-- Atkins should have fired the
person who designed his carb counter-  other vegetables,  onion  1 per day,
well is a big Bermuda or a small one-  the alternate vegetable list should
have a set carb value.  I like the diet but a book writer he isn't.  wonder
what his handwriting was like...lol

I like this carb counter for its conversions- anyone find a better one?
http://www.lowcarb.ca/low-carb-tools/carb_counter.html

Diane

> > I'm about to start Atkins for the first time and I've a
> > question about the carbs allowance.  I'm reading the UK
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>
> Linda
Al Neenyo - 08 Jan 2004 15:35 GMT
> The 20 grams of carbs is a definite thing-- Atkins should have fired the
> person who designed his carb counter

He should also have fired whoever it was who "translated" the US original
into the UK version.  I think I now see what the problem is.  

First, I was thinking that 250g of salad vegetables constituted 250g of
carbs (when in fact I guess most of that salad weight is actually water).

Second, their modification of US measures for UK use is confusing.
It's easiest to see when you notice that although the UK version translates
the US "cups" of salad into grams, it still mentions that the grams should
be "loose packed".  US cups is effectively a measure of *volume* (hence
the need to specify the packing, in order to make that correspond to
a mass).  But UK grams are, like everyone else's grams, a measure of mass
no matter how you pack 'em.

So, just to be clear.  The rule is saying, "20g of carbs, *of which* I should
aim for about 250g of the approved salad stuff".  Yes?

Final question - does that 250g of salad actually constitute the full 20g
of carbs, or will there be some (how much) of that 20g allowance left over
for, I dunno, something less rabbit-ish?

thanks,
.
The Queen of Cans and Jars - 08 Jan 2004 15:51 GMT
> Final question - does that 250g of salad actually constitute the full 20g
> of carbs, or will there be some (how much) of that 20g allowance left over
> for, I dunno, something less rabbit-ish?

you'll want to get acquainted with figuring out the amount of
carbohydrates in the foods that you eat.  i am not sure what to
recommend to you since you're in the UK...you could try starting at the
USDA website, though.  it gives calculations for food in grams.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl
Jeri - 08 Jan 2004 15:57 GMT
> So, just to be clear.  The rule is saying, "20g of carbs, *of which*
> I should
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> over
> for, I dunno, something less rabbit-ish?

This site might help you out a little with the carb counting. It may not
contain foods (or food names) unique to the UK but it does have weight
measurements in grams along with the volume measurements.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl

Signature

Jeri
265/189/120
Atkins since 11/5/01
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right."

DJ Delorie - 08 Jan 2004 16:23 GMT
> Final question - does that 250g of salad actually constitute the full 20g
> of carbs, or will there be some (how much) of that 20g allowance left over
> for, I dunno, something less rabbit-ish?

As I posted before, 250g of romaine lettuce is only 6g of carbs.
Depending on what's in your salad, it will vary, but not by much if
you stick to the approved foods list.  That leaves 14g of carbs for
things like cheese, eggs, cream, dressings, spices, and your non-salad
veggie.
Beemie - 08 Jan 2004 01:12 GMT
NO MORE than 20 real carbs daily on induction...

2-3 cups of greens  ( salads and/or allowed vegs.) total daily...
meat, cheese, check online   Atkins.com
DJ Delorie - 08 Jan 2004 01:30 GMT
250g of romaine lettuce only has 6g of carbs.

http://www.delorie.com/health/ns/label.cgi?fid=11251&grams=1&unit=g&amount=1&new
amount=250

The Queen of Cans and Jars - 08 Jan 2004 02:12 GMT
> I'm about to start Atkins for the first time and I've a
> question about the carbs allowance.  I'm reading the UK
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Q1: Well, which is it - 20g or 250g?  

you are confusing the weight of the food (250g) with the quantity of
carbohydrates (20g).  

so the answer is, it's both :)
LCer09 - 08 Jan 2004 03:25 GMT
>you are confusing the weight of the food (250g) with the quantity of
>carbohydrates (20g).  
>
>so the answer is, it's both :)

I'm trying to imagine eating enough salad to give me 250g of carbs. I think I'd
pop first!

LCing since 12/01/03-
Me- 265/239/140
& hubby- 310/268/180
Doug Freyburger - 08 Jan 2004 21:56 GMT
> As far as I can see, rule 3 of the "Rules of Induction"
> (page 123) is confusing and ambiguous.
>
>     "Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate,..."

The 20 is a quota to be met.  Remember on day 15 you increase by
5 to get to 25.  You can't increase 10 by 5 to get 25!

> but it also says:
>     "You can eat approximately 250g ... of salad..."
> Q1: Well, which is it - 20g or 250g?

Salad veggies aren't 100% carb by weight.  In fact the veggies on
the regular low carb list are no more than 10% by weight and the
veggies on the salad list aka the ultra low carb list are no more
than 5% by weight.

THe translation from volume of salad (cups) in the American version
to weight of salad (grams) in the UK version appears to be botched.
As light as salad is, no way I'd be able to eat 250 grams.  That
would be well in excess of a liter of tossed light veggies.

> Q3: What does "most of which" mean - half, 90%, what?

Most means at least half.  His examples give 10+ from veggies and
10- from other during Induction.

> I mean, isn't the level of carbs one of the *core* aspects of his
> program?

*The* core aspect is ketosis.  Being in and out of it on schedule.

> Isn't getting that level sufficiently low a *vital* component?

Note that the initial 20 is a deliberate undershoot to get in excess
of 99% into ketosis.  It is by no means a best level.

> Good grief, if he can't get such a crucial part
> of his ideas down in clear and simple terms, it doesn't
> bode well for his science and logic.

Dr A's medical skills did not extend to writing.  A cliche:

I've known intelligent people who couldn't string together a setence,
but I've never known any good writer who wasn't intelligent.

You're over-reading the cliche to conclude that poor writing skills
imply not smart.

Fact is, his science was indeed weak.  He didn't keep up in the last
decade.  Plenty of advances in hormone science set the theoretical
basis for his low carbing process, but when he wrote it it was staright
up experimentation to see what works.  He engineered a good process
not knowing the science.  But when you're an MD being a good engineer
works every bit as well as being a good scientist.
 
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