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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 200420% body fat? How can i rid myself of this plight (roger and everyone else into fitness)
ME: 5ft 7in 171lbs 34inch waist Been working out for the last three or four weeks, consistently. Also dropped 30lbs or so since Late October of 2003. So this isn't some new years resolution "kick" I am on ;-) Well well well... It seems that the large Shoppers Drug Mart (like Albertson's in the USA) downtown has one of those "new fangled" devices to measure your fat %. It is hand held, takes your data in, and then shoots back a percentage to you after about seven seconds. I know that this is not the most accurate test, and that it can be tricked by drinking too much or too little water, or by taking it after vigorous exercise, so I will be going every other day when I am not at the gym and plotting it more or less, so get an average over a week or two. But 20% body fat... Wow, sounds high, doesn't it? of course, 20% is considered borderline unhealthy for a man (21% is bad and up to 20% is acceptable). 20% is apparently for me, somewhere around 34lbs of fat. Yeah. sickening. It seems crazy though. I don't even want to guess what I was before the diet and working out at the gym. I am running alot now, I am close to a 12 minute mile, 13:00 exact today actually. I am also doing a regular routine of lifting, working on abs (alot of crunches, 150 today) and upper body. What can be done to get rid of this excess that I am not thinking of. I am trying my hardest to get the cardio work up to a good level, and am lifting to overload (the highest weight I can do, and doing three sets of seven or four sets of eight depending on the day) until I cannot lift with that exercise anymore. I am feeling great, and actually look forward to the semi sore feeling afterwards. DOMS seems to not be much of an issue for me of late, which is good... I am eating more carbs as I go as well, incorporating low glycemic carb good into my diet, but watching not to go above 125g carbs on a day I do the gym, and 75-100g carbs when I am not at the gym. Do things you can get which are over the counter type metabolism boosters an alternative? and if one takes them, does one need to stay on them? I am not interested in getting stuck on a pill, but if a naturally derived supplement can work on a short term basis to get the extra fat off my stomach and help me get to a relatively trim 10% body fat, then I would try it as long as the long term consequences were not putting me at risk. These were questions I have been thinking of asking. I am technically "against" pills, diet pills especially, because I watch my caloric intake, so I do not worry about weight loss in a normal sense, I am losing about 1lb week now, but wouldn't mind speeding that up, without having to go back to an Atkins induction style diet, which I feel is no longer suited to me anymore. You're a fat stupid weak f.ck.  SignatureJC Eat less, exercise more. -- > ME: > 5ft 7in [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > having to go back to an Atkins induction style diet, which I feel is no > longer suited to me anymore. "Juicy Der Koenig" wrote: > You're a fat stupid weak f.ck. Then try a w-o-m-a-n next time. You can tell them by those bumps on the front. They're much better f.cks. . Steven C (Doktersteve) wrote: :: ME: :: 5ft 7in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: dropped 30lbs or so since Late October of 2003. So this isn't some :: new years resolution "kick" I am on ;-) I believe that. What is your routine, exactly? :: Well well well... :: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] :: 20% is apparently for me, somewhere around 34lbs of fat. :: Yeah. sickening. Ignore it. Go by what you see in the mirror with no clothes on. :: It seems crazy though. I don't even want to guess what I was before :: the diet and working out at the gym. :: :: I am running alot now, I am close to a 12 minute mile, 13:00 exact :: today actually. I am also doing a regular routine of lifting, :: working on abs (alot of crunches, 150 today) and upper body. Why so many crunches? Be careful here. They won't help you remove fat on your midsection, but they could make your abs muscles too big -- and hence make you look thicker in the mid section. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but you may not get the results you're after. :: What can be done to get rid of this excess that I am not thinking of. :: I am trying my hardest to get the cardio work up to a good level, :: and am lifting to overload (the highest weight I can do, and doing :: three sets of seven or four sets of eight depending on the day) :: until I cannot lift with that exercise anymore. How much are you eating and how much are you burning. Make sure you're getting a deficit in term of calories. Also, you're a newbie at weight training, right? I don't recommend you lifting to failure. For one thing, it's not necessary and for another, you might get hurt. I'm not sure if you are or not, but it sounds as if you are. Also, it is not a good idea to lift heavy every workout. I suggest you use a full-body routine from Krista's site. Do that for 3 or 4 months, then switch to an HST routine, perhaps, while you keep dieting. Overtime, the fat will burn away. :: I am feeling great, and actually look forward to the semi sore :: feeling afterwards. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] :: boosters an alternative? and if one takes them, does one need to :: stay on them? I have no idea....I'm not into this kind of thing. About all I do is drink some coffee before working out. You'll have to take this one to mfw... I am not interested in getting stuck on a pill, but if :: a naturally derived supplement can work on a short term basis to get :: the extra fat off my stomach and help me get to a relatively trim :: 10% body fat, then I would try it as long as the long term :: consequences were not putting me at risk. I say keep dieting, working out smartly, and doing cardio. Track everything and maintain a calorie deficit. If you keep at it, you'll get there. However, you won't get there overnight. :: These were questions I have been thinking of asking. :: I am technically "against" pills, diet pills especially, because I :: watch my caloric intake, so I do not worry about weight loss in a :: normal sense, I am losing about 1lb week now, but wouldn't mind :: speeding that up, without having to go back to an Atkins induction :: style diet, which I feel is no longer suited to me anymore. Well, if you had some more lifting experience under your belt, I'd recommend a CKD type diet. Bodybuilders use them all the time to rid themselves of bodyfat. I don't want to see you get hurt, Steven. IMO, you need to be learning the movements. While that is not really rocket science, I'm not sure you've really given it enough time yet. Do you have this book yet: The Insider's Tell-All Handbook on Weight-Training Technique, 2nd Ed, by Stuart McRobert? If not, get it and read it. Also, try to think long-term. If you got to 10% bodyfat you'll still have to stay there which means you'll be working out and watching what you eat. Hence, you'll be doing this for a long time to come. Rushing to get there is not a good plan, especially if you don't learn how to lift properly. You've been reading over in mwf about people getting various injuries -- don't ignore that. Be smart. Learn the movements -- read the books -- practice the movements -- and be patient. If you keep working smartly, you'll get results. You're making good progress now -- all you really need to do, imo, is to keep learning. > Steven C (Doktersteve) wrote: > :: ME: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > make you look thicker in the mid section. I'm not saying that's a bad > thing, but you may not get the results you're after. There is no such thing as spot reduction. SignatureTom Morley | Same roads morley@math.gatech.edu | Same rights tmorley@mindspring.com | Same rules AIM: DocTDM > > Steven C (Doktersteve) wrote: > > :: ME: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > There is no such thing as spot reduction. One good thing - you are in the early stages of adaptation. So you can get a lot better. Ignore the negative remarks - you've been exercising for not even a month. It will take a few more before you really see results. I think you need more intensity. So do intervals in your running trying to get your pace up. Lift heavier with compound movements and quit focusing on your abs. Krista's site comes to mind, as always. SignatureKeith Hobman --- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink. Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message vvupqjpfut0feb@corp.supernews.com > Steven C (Doktersteve) wrote: [...] >>> But 20% body fat... Wow, sounds high, doesn't it? of course, 20% is >>> considered borderline unhealthy for a man (21% is bad and up to 20% [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ignore it. Go by what you see in the mirror with no clothes on. Rubbish. The mirror is not an accurate guide to whether or not you have a healthy body fat%. As you get older you accumulate more internal fat, which contibutes to your bf% but which is invisible to the naked eye. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop Now that's just f.cking stupid. SignatureJC > Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message > vvupqjpfut0feb@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > healthy body fat%. As you get older you accumulate more internal fat, which > contibutes to your bf% but which is invisible to the naked eye. JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message b13Mb.6083$0S5.2448@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com > Now that's just f.cking stupid. Not much is as stupid as your carping drivvel. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop > JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message > b13Mb.6083$0S5.2448@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com > > Now that's just f.cking stupid. > > Not much is as stupid as your carping drivvel. Drivel, you mean? Idiot. JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message Um4Mb.6088$6n6.4716@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com >> JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message >> b13Mb.6083$0S5.2448@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Idiot. A trivial spelling mistake in no way makes me an idiot. But your constant bullshitting and carping at people who know what they are talking about puts you right at the top of the idiot line. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop >JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message >Um4Mb.6088$6n6.4716@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >bullshitting and carping at people who know what they are talking about puts >you right at the top of the idiot line. Would his comments be more appropriately described as a "regular" trolling", or is that an oxymoron as far as _the_ "regulars" are concerned? ;o) > JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message > Um4Mb.6088$6n6.4716@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > bullshitting and carping at people who know what they are talking about puts > you right at the top of the idiot line. So you stick with your claim that one can have too much "hidden" bodyfat even when their reflected image clearly shows defined abs and no love handles? So that's Ronnie Coleman's problem? JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message rMbMb.3437$2v3.1652@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com [...] > So you stick with your claim that one can have too much "hidden" > bodyfat even when their reflected image clearly shows defined abs and > no love handles? So that's Ronnie Coleman's problem? I stand by what I said but not by your deliberate distortion of it. It is a simple biological fact that, as I said, the older you get the more internal fat you accumulate. It is a simple fact that simply looking in the mirror is not an accurate guide as to whether or not your body fat% is within the healthy range or not. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop :: JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message :: rMbMb.3437$2v3.1652@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] :: simply looking in the mirror is not an accurate guide as to whether :: or not your body fat% is within the healthy range or not. wow...So what you're saying is that one has to result to something other than a caliper test to determine if one is within the healthy range, since one could be very trim with abs showing but still have lots of invisible "internal fat"? BTW, the OP is in his early 20s. Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message 1002n0aq1bfmp0b@corp.supernews.com [...] >>> I stand by what I said but not by your deliberate distortion of it. >>> It is a simple biological fact that, as I said, the older you get [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > range, since one could be very trim with abs showing but still have > lots of invisible "internal fat"? First up, there's no reason for the sneer quotes around internal fat. Do a Google search and start reading the 3k+ hits (admittedly not all of them relate to humans but you'll still find lots that do). A person with highly defined abs would be unlikely to have "lots" of internal fat but it is a fact that even if that person were able to maintain that definition over a period of years their internal fat would still increase as they age. Calipers are a good guide to total body fat but skinfold readings will nevertheless become somewhat more inaccurate as you age because they don't measure that increase (eg, http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2459/n2_v27/21132668/p5/article.jhtml?term= ) . The mirror is a very bad guide. Two people can seem visibly to have similar body compositions yet in reality have significantly different body fat % readings. > BTW, the OP is in his early 20s. OK, so now we know what the nominal healthy range is, 8-20%. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop > Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message > 1002n0aq1bfmp0b@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > nevertheless become somewhat more inaccurate as you age because they don't > measure that increase (eg, http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2459/n2_v27/21132668/p5/article.jhtml?term= ) > . The mirror is a very bad guide. Two people can seem visibly to have > similar body compositions yet in reality have significantly different body [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > OK, so now we know what the nominal healthy range is, 8-20%. So there is a possibility but low probability of your fantasy scenario. Idiot. JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message 05eMb.7659$%r5.1330@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com >> Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> 1002n0aq1bfmp0b@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> but skinfold readings will nevertheless become somewhat more >> inaccurate as you age because they don't measure that increase (eg, http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2459/n2_v27/21132668/p5/article.jhtml?term= > ) >> . The mirror is a very bad guide. Two people can seem visibly to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Idiot. f.ck off, dickwad. You have no idea what I'm talking about much less what you're talking about. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop > JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message > 05eMb.7659$%r5.1330@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >> but skinfold readings will nevertheless become somewhat more > >> inaccurate as you age because they don't measure that increase (eg, http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2459/n2_v27/21132668/p5/article.jhtml?term= > > ) > >> . The mirror is a very bad guide. Two people can seem visibly to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > f.ck off, dickwad. You have no idea what I'm talking about much less what > you're talking about. Nobody knows what your nonsensical ramblings are about. JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message ueeMb.851$Vn3.305226804@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com [...] > Nobody knows what your nonsensical ramblings are about. Don't try to blame your comprehension problems on me, fucktard. So far every thing you've said has been wrong and every criticism you've made has been unfounded. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop I guess you're right then. BMI is a better indicator than abs in the mirror. Who woulda thunk it? SignatureJC Eat less, exercise more. -- > JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message > ueeMb.851$Vn3.305226804@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > every thing you've said has been wrong and every criticism you've made has > been unfounded. JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message KpeMb.852$sC3.306152573@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com > I guess you're right then. BMI is a better indicator than abs in the > mirror. Who woulda thunk it? Only you, you top-posting shithead. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop > JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message > ueeMb.851$Vn3.305226804@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > every thing you've said has been wrong and every criticism you've made has > been unfounded. Pot-Kettle_Black >JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message >05eMb.7659$%r5.1330@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >f.ck off, dickwad. You have no idea what I'm talking about much less what >you're talking about. Now you're getting the hang of it DRS! <G > >JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message > >05eMb.7659$%r5.1330@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Now you're getting the hang of it DRS! <G> Yeah - too bad DRS is still a known moron here. >> >JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message >> >05eMb.7659$%r5.1330@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > >Yeah - too bad DRS is still a known moron here. I'm at a loss to know why he is so unpopular. It is a natural national trait that the Oz male is abrasive, but I don't necessarily find that a problem! ;o) John HUDSON <jrh@linear.com> wrote in message bg150099qj1ocu80eokkprlp97cjrjgof0@4ax.com [...] > I'm at a loss to know why he is so unpopular. It is a natural national > trait that the Oz male is abrasive, but I don't necessarily find > that a problem! ;o) Unpopular with whom beyond a few subhuman fucktards like OmegaZero2004? Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop >John HUDSON <jrh@linear.com> wrote in message >bg150099qj1ocu80eokkprlp97cjrjgof0@4ax.com [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Unpopular with whom beyond a few subhuman fucktards like OmegaZero2004? You appear to have answered your own question! ;o) > John HUDSON <jrh@linear.com> wrote in message > bg150099qj1ocu80eokkprlp97cjrjgof0@4ax.com [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Unpopular with whom beyond a few subhuman fucktards like OmegaZero2004? With most everyone! :: Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message :: 1002n0aq1bfmp0b@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] :: will nevertheless become somewhat more inaccurate as you age because :: they don't measure that increase (eg, http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2459/n2_v27/21132668/p5/article.jhtml?term= :: ) . The mirror is a very bad guide. Two people can seem visibly to :: have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :: :: OK, so now we know what the nominal healthy range is, 8-20%. And given that, you're telling me that he can't look in the mirror with clothes off and judge bodyfat? If he keeps working til those abs so, surely the mirror is a good guide, right? Or, are you saying he needs to go find some expensive, elaborate test facility to know if he is in a healthy range for fat? > :: Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message > :: 1002n0aq1bfmp0b@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > :: will nevertheless become somewhat more inaccurate as you age because > :: they don't measure that increase (eg, http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2459/n2_v27/21132668/p5/article.jhtml?te rm= > :: ) . The mirror is a very bad guide. Two people can seem visibly to > :: have [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > some expensive, elaborate test facility to know if he is in a healthy range > for fat? IAWTP. Besides, I am just currently "happy" (note, not SATISFIED) to be in the "normal" range. And I keep plodding away at making that percentage smaller and smaller. Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message 10032lg5sp1iode@corp.supernews.com [...] > And given that, you're telling me that he can't look in the mirror > with clothes off and judge bodyfat? If he keeps working til those > abs so, surely the mirror is a good guide, right? Or, are you saying > he needs to go find some expensive, elaborate test facility to know > if he is in a healthy range for fat? 1. Learn to snip extraneous material. 2. I repeat: two people who appear to have very similar body compositions may in fact have very different body fat % readings. The mirror is the worst possible guide. For the sake of the argument, whilst I'm slim I defy anyone to reliably and accurately judge my bf% by eye. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop :: Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message :: 10032lg5sp1iode@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] :: argument, whilst I'm slim I defy anyone to reliably and accurately :: judge my bf% by eye. Did my suggestion have anything to do with reliably and accurately judging bf%? One may not be able to say they have 11% bf by looking in a mirror, but one may certainly be able to know if it is low enough to be in a healthy. Also, if you're trim, then it is very possible that, knowing your age, one can place an upper bound on your bodyfat by eye. :: -- :: :: "Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be :: is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole :: happened to be." Andreas Prilop Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message 10050hqdtlinn51@corp.supernews.com >>> Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> 10032lg5sp1iode@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > in a mirror, but one may certainly be able to know if it is low > enough to be in a healthy. The OP said: >>> 20% is apparently for me, somewhere around 34lbs of fat. >>> Yeah. sickening. And you said: > Ignore it. Go by what you see in the mirror with no clothes on. Hardly reliable or accurate. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop :: Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message :: 10050hqdtlinn51@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] :: :: Hardly reliable or accurate. Not in terms of reducing bodyfat. He can simply look in the mirror to know if he's making progress. My response was not designed to provide him with a means of reliably or accurately determining bodyfat %. That was not his question. My response was designed to guide him on reducing from where he is now. He can learn all he needs by simply standing in front of a mirror while following a plan that ensures proper to diet and exercise. :: -- :: :: "Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be :: is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole :: happened to be." Andreas Prilop > Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message > 10032lg5sp1iode@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > worst possible guide. For the sake of the argument, whilst I'm slim I defy > anyone to reliably and accurately judge my bf% by eye. And if you're 'slim' your exact body fat measurement is important? Why? SignatureKeith Hobman --- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink. Keith Hobman <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message khobman-1201040800330001@192.168.0.48 [...] >> 2. I repeat: two people who appear to have very similar body >> compositions may in fact have very different body fat % readings. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And if you're 'slim' your exact body fat measurement is important? > Why? Just for the sake of the argument, I use the ISSA BMR formula, which in part differentiates between males below 14% bf and those between 14% - 20%. I defy you to just look at me and tell me whether my bf is above or below 14%. And, of course, it's possible for your bf% to be too low. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop > Keith Hobman <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message > khobman-1201040800330001@192.168.0.48 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Just for the sake of the argument, I use the ISSA BMR formula, Why? > which in part > differentiates between males below 14% bf and those between 14% - 20%. I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." > Andreas Prilop > > Keith Hobman <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message > > khobman-1201040800330001@192.168.0.48 [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Why? He is a moron and cannot distinguish the real from the un-real. > > which in part > > differentiates between males below 14% bf and those between 14% - 20%. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." > > Andreas Prilop > Keith Hobman <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message > khobman-1201040800330001@192.168.0.48 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > defy you to just look at me and tell me whether my bf is above or below 14%. > And, of course, it's possible for your bf% to be too low. I'm not really interested in an argument. My point is that a person can look at you and say, "That person has a healthy body composition." with a reasonable level of accuracy. Despite what ISSA might like to think there is no significant difference in terms of health or performance in sport between 14 and 15%. So knowing the exact number is unimportant. Which is why I prefer calipers. Because the important thing if you are trying to change body composition isn't the exact number, its moving in the right direction. SignatureKeith Hobman --- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink. > > Keith Hobman <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message > > khobman-1201040800330001@192.168.0.48 [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > of health or performance in sport between 14 and 15%. So knowing the exact > number is unimportant. Not only that but DRS does not know the difference between precision and accuracy. And he does not know that the *trrend* in fat lipolysis or lipogenesis is what is important - not an accurate number AAR. Indeed, D (THE IDIOT) RS, does not know that such a trend can be established by calipers, looking in the mirror or impedence mechanisms. He is a simpleton with no breadth or depth in any subject. > Which is why I prefer calipers. Because the important thing if you are > trying to change body composition isn't the exact number, its moving in > the right direction. > Calipers are a good guide to total body fat but skinfold readings will > nevertheless become somewhat more inaccurate as you age because they don't > measure that increase Why do think the formulas used with calipers ask for "age"? Ellis SignatureDiscipline brings you freedom Ellis <ellis_paul@msn.comREMOVETHIS> wrote in message qaydnf8R7tLpOJzdRVn-ug@giganews.com >> Calipers are a good guide to total body fat but skinfold readings >> will nevertheless become somewhat more inaccurate as you age because >> they don't measure that increase > > Why do think the formulas used with calipers ask for "age"? Hey, don't tell me. :-) Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop > Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message > vvupqjpfut0feb@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > healthy body fat%. As you get older you accumulate more internal fat, which > contibutes to your bf% but which is invisible to the naked eye. What a moron. > Roger Zoul <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message > vvupqjpfut0feb@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > healthy body fat%. As you get older you accumulate more internal fat, which > contibutes to your bf% but which is invisible to the naked eye. Its better than an instant fat measuring scale, which was the point. The OP is 23 BTW, so internal fat isn't so much of an issue. [...] > > Rubbish. The mirror is not an accurate guide to whether or not you have a [...] > Its better than an instant fat measuring scale, which was the point. Nonsense. The mirror is the least accurate measure. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop Because you're blind? SignatureJC Eat less, exercise more. -- > > [...] [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Nonsense. The mirror is the least accurate measure. JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message hpnNb.5052$kt1.2098@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com > Because you're blind? Top-posting shithead. Signature"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to be is like sh.tting in your pants because that's where your a.shole happened to be." Andreas Prilop Bottom posting Nazi bastard >JC Der Koenig <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message >hpnNb.5052$kt1.2098@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com >> Because you're blind? > >Top-posting shithead. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Nonsense. The mirror is the least accurate measure. If memory serves, your whole argument against a mirror was that it would not give an accurate indication of internal fat - which you argued would become more of a problem as a person aged. You seem to have dropped that in favour of the silly 'a mirror is the least accurate measure' statement. Well duh - a mirror isn't a measuring device of any sort. It simply allows a person to observe his or her physical appearance - useful if one wants to see just how the workouts and dieting have improved one's shape. > ME: > 5ft 7in [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > having to go back to an Atkins induction style diet, which I feel is no > longer suited to me anymore. I think you need to set your exercise sights higher, fellow Steve. I don't mean this condescendingly but I can walk faster than 13:00 per mile and usually run at about 8:00 per mile and have raced 5k at 6:30 per mile. I'm also 5'7" but I weigh about 150 and am about 13% body fat at age 48 - but most importantly, I can deadlift 325 lbs. and I deadlift in the 225-285 range 3 days per week. Want to look better and feel stronger? Pick up some heavy iron off the floor, cut back on the silly high-rep situps (here's a real ab exercise for you, performed by yours truly: http://www.kbnj.com/Inverted_Wheel.rm) and learn about lifting weights. I highly recommend the book "Power To The People!" by Pavel Tsatsouline - see http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm for more info about it. It's the book that started me on a new path in fitness and I think it's great. Six year ago I had such a severe back injury that I was unable to walk. You can do this but it takes hard work and discipline. Report back in a few months, please. -S- http://www.kbnj.com OW - that looks like it hurts! My stomach muscles are exercising right now from the spasms of pain I get from watching : ) More power to you! Want to look better and feel stronger? Pick up some > heavy iron off the floor, cut back on the silly high-rep situps (here's a > real ab exercise for you, performed by yours truly: > http://www.kbnj.com/Inverted_Wheel.rm) and learn about lifting weights. > > I highly recommend the book "Power To The People!" by Pavel Tsatsouline - > see http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm for more info about it. It's the book > OW - that looks like it hurts! My stomach muscles are exercising right now > from the spasms of pain I get from watching : ) More power to you! You start out doing them kneeling and doing them kneeling is fine exercise. Doing them standing is, I agree, a whole lot harder but most people can get part of the way out and back again on a kneeling wheel the first time they try it. -S- http://www.kbnj.com > Want to look better and feel stronger? Pick up some > > heavy iron off the floor, cut back on the silly high-rep situps (here's a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I highly recommend the book "Power To The People!" by Pavel Tsatsouline - > > see http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm for more info about it. It's the book Hello Steve, > You start out doing them kneeling and doing them kneeling is fine > exercise. > Doing them standing is, I agree, a whole lot harder but most people > can get part of the way out and back again on a kneeling wheel the > first > time they try it. They certainly look like they require development of stabilizers out the wazoo. May I ask if (and if so, how many times) you landed on your chin? That would be my most pressing concern. Coordination and I are only passingly acquainted. :-) Take care, Carmen regarding http://www.kbnj.com/Inverted_Wheel.rm > Hello Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > your chin? That would be my most pressing concern. Coordination and > I are only passingly acquainted. :-) Almost never, maybe once or twice in all the times I've done them. If you plan your progression of effort well, you don't usually fail. And you don't really land on your chin, you just land on your forearms - and laugh! Of course, I can now do them an even harder way, which is to roll all the way out, relax on the floor for a minute, then pop back up again. You will find, as you observed, you require all sorts of stabilizers to do wheel rollouts, but that's what's so great about them! Focus on keeping your armpits really tight, and on having a near-death grip on the wheel handle - those things will help you. The best, the very best thing about these is that they teach you the proper way for your abs to work, which is not how silly crunches and situps teach your abs to work. To make an Evil Wheel rollout work, you have to tighten your butt cheeks as you tighten your stomach. Tightening the butt tends to relax the hip flexors - hip flexors are the muscles everyone tells you get used when doing full situps instead of abs. Wheel rollout teach pelvis alignment - you pull up on the front of your pelvis with your abs while pulling down on the back of your pelvis with your glutes. It's this "turning under" of the pelvis while you're flat out just above the floor that protects your back - just tighten your abs and you'll find you can only get so far and no further without collapsing. My wife, who is 46 years old, 121 lbs., 5'3", and about 22-23% bodyfat, can do these kneeling to full extension, even laying on the floor for a minute and then coming back up again. The kneeling version of this exercise is highly recommended for anyone who wants their abs to be both strong and "team players", well-integrated into the rest of their body. If you're going to try these for real - and I hope you do - post again and I'll give you a few more tips for doing them effectively while keeping your lower back (and your chin!) healthy. =S= http://www.kbnj.com/Inverted_Wheel.rm http://www.kbnj.com > Take care, > Carmen Hi Steve, > > They certainly look like they require development of stabilizers > > out the wazoo. May I ask if (and if so, how many times) you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and > laugh! I'll take your word on the laughing part. :-) I've been mapping out the path to least Carmen damage for this (not really sure why I want to learn to do this other than "just because it can be done" <G>). One big point in my favor is a high degree of flexibility. One major negative is a concentration of extra weight in the abdominal area due to former morbid obesity (i.e. skin). That may want to provide an assist on the way down - we'll see. > You will find, as you observed, you require all sorts of stabilizers > to do wheel rollouts, but that's what's so great about them! Focus [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > find you > can only get so far and no further without collapsing. Noted and printed. > My wife, who is 46 years old, 121 lbs., 5'3", and about 22-23% > bodyfat, can do these kneeling to full extension, even laying on the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > both strong > and "team players", well-integrated into the rest of their body. I'll try the kneeling start version first. My abdominus is in decent shape considering my former state of morbid obesity. It actually came back into line and under good conscious control during exercise, so when I can afford to spend $10,000 on surgery it'll be skin only - no muscle tightening. :-) > If you're going to try these for real - and I hope you do - post > again and I'll give you a few more tips for doing them effectively > while > keeping your lower back (and your chin!) healthy. It'd be greatly appreciated. Take care, Carmen > > I am running alot now, I am close to a 12 minute mile, 13:00 exact today > > actually. I am also doing a regular routine of lifting, working on abs > (alot > > of crunches, 150 today) and upper body. > I think you need to set your exercise sights higher, fellow Steve. I don't > mean this condescendingly but I can walk faster than 13:00 per mile and > usually run at about 8:00 per mile and have raced 5k at 6:30 per mile. > -S- When I read that you were "running" a 12 minutes mile, I thought I had read it wrong. With me, I can still be walking at a 10 minute mile and anything under that is finally breaking into a jog. I used to sustain a good run at a 8:00 minute mile--and could go for a short time on about 7:30 mile (but I am definitely not fast)! Oh--maybe you're race walking. I hadn't thought of that. At any rate, don't obsess over the body fat issue. Keep to exercising and the body fat will fat into line later on. And don't waste money on "metabolism boosters." They are nothing but a short term stimulant that makes your heart race and makes you nervous for a little bit so that you'll think "something is really happening!" They're not worth spending the money on. Pat in TX > > > I am running alot now, I am close to a 12 minute mile, 13:00 exact today > > > actually. I am also doing a regular routine of lifting, working on abs [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Pat in TX Well pat, I guess we aren't all in the amazing shape you are in :( this is why I did not want to post this in mfw. thanks for the feedback though, I appreciate it. Hi Steve, "Steven C (Doktersteve)" <real_doktersteve@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:d5LLb.517$Eq.59@clgrps12... > Well pat, I guess we aren't all in the amazing shape you are in :( > this is why I did not want to post this in mfw. > thanks for the feedback though, I appreciate it. Steve, don't worry about being a PT stud overnight. It doesn't work that way. Attempting to emulate the performance of people who've been at it for years longer than you have, and who started out with different physical dimensions (longer legs, etc.) right out the gate will probably just lead to injuries and disappointment. Sometimes people forget where they started. :-) Take care, Carmen > Well pat, I guess we aren't all in the amazing shape you are in :( > this is why I did not want to post this in mfw. > thanks for the feedback though, I appreciate it. Steve, you missed the whole point of my post and the previous one! If you are "running" at 12 or 13 miles per hour, you would be better off walking. That is, don't subject your body to the extra pounding of running until you can walk fast enough to break into a run. Once you get to where you can walk that fast, transitioning into running will be a lot easier. In the meantime, your "run" must be jerky and very tiring as well as pounding those knees and ankles. Not only that, but your breathing will be more regulated by then because it takes a lot of energy to walk fast, too. So, transitioning into running becomes smoother and not as difficult as what you are doing now. Pat in TX >> Well pat, I guess we aren't all in the amazing shape you are in :( >> this is why I did not want to post this in mfw. >> thanks for the feedback though, I appreciate it. > >Steve, you missed the whole point of my post and the previous one! If you >are "running" at 12 or 13 miles per hour, you would be better off walking. <snip> You can *walk* at 12 mph? Them's some long legs you've got. >Pat in TX >>> Well pat, I guess we aren't all in the amazing shape you are in :( >>> this is why I did not want to post this in mfw. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >You can *walk* at 12 mph? He quite clearly said nothing of the sort; what he said is grammatically correct. You should know that running is quite different to walking, and both are done at dramatically different paces. >Them's some long legs you've got. Your wit is about equal to your grasp of the English language "Goatsucker"!! >> Well pat, I guess we aren't all in the amazing shape you are in :( >> this is why I did not want to post this in mfw. >> thanks for the feedback though, I appreciate it. > > Steve, you missed the whole point of my post and the previous one! Not that there was a "point" to get. > If you > are "running" at 12 or 13 miles per hour, I think you mean 12-13 min per mile ? > you would be better off walking. Nonsense. > That is, don't subject your body to the extra pounding of running until you > can walk fast enough to break into a run. Nonsense. He is running. Therefore, he is going "fast enough to break into a run". To be more precise, the "crossover point" where it is more economical to run than it is to walk is about 5mph (12 min per mile) for most people. But there is some variation. People with bad running biomechanics (short legs for example) can comfortably run a little slower. [babbling snipped] SignatureDonovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ > >> Well pat, I guess we aren't all in the amazing shape you are in :( > >> this is why I did not want to post this in mfw. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > [babbling snipped] That is exactly what i had thought. It made zero sense ot me that someone could sustain a twelve mile an hour RUN. I thought after reading the post, that perhsps she was thinking 12km/h... > > > you would be better off walking. > > > > Nonsense. Yes, he would be better off walking and walking fast because he is getting discouraged by his slow running. > > > That is, don't subject your body to the extra pounding of running until > you > > > can walk fast enough to break into a run. > > > > Nonsense. Ask any doctor if it is preferable to walk or run vis a vis the pounding on his joints..... > > He is running. Therefore, he is going "fast enough to break into a run". > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > is some variation. People with bad running biomechanics (short legs for > > example) can comfortably run a little slower. We have an 80 year old man in the club who runs at a 10 minute mile. He shuffles along. I can't imagine what Steve looks like doing a 13 minute mile....he probably looks like he is ready to keel over. > That is exactly what i had thought. > It made zero sense ot me that someone could sustain a twelve mile an hour > RUN. > I thought after reading the post, that perhsps she was thinking 12km/h... No, I screwed it up again. I, of course, meant your reference to a 13 minute mile. Pat in TX > > > He is running. Therefore, he is going "fast enough to break into > > > a run". [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > 13 > minute mile....he probably looks like he is ready to keel over. Earlier I'd been giving you the benefit of the doubt in that thread where you tried to pick a fight with Revek using the race card. "Poor guy, probably just having a hard time lately so he's looking for an outlet due to stress". Outlet my eye. In the process of being a discouraging bungmunch to Steve you take a swipe at a fellow member of your club just for good measure. Behind his back no less. An old psych professor of mine put it best; "Not everyone has an illness or disorder. Not everyone is having problems adapting. Some people are just jerks." Carmen > > We have an 80 year old man in the club who runs at a 10 minute mile. > > He shuffles along. I can't imagine what Steve looks like doing a > > 13 > > minute mile....he probably looks like he is ready to keel over. > Earlier I'd been giving you the benefit of the doubt in that thread > where you tried to pick a fight with Revek using the race card. Hold it right there! I did NOT try to pick a fight. I asked her if she was bringing race into it and she refused to give a direct answer. All she had to do was say "yes" or "no" but she wouldn't even comment. Then, you started getting in the middle of the conversation and who asked you anyway? You kept trying to interject and say "she meant this" or "she probably meant that" or some such crud. And nobody asked you in the first place. Butt out! "Poor > guy, probably just having a hard time lately so he's looking for an > outlet due to stress". > Outlet my eye. In the process of being a discouraging bungmunch to > Steve you take a swipe at a fellow member of your club just for good > measure. Behind his back no less. What the hell are you prattling about, now? I was trying to get Steve to stop running until his body is able to take it. Walking is better than running when someone is walking that slow---and a 13 minute mile is so slow that most people can walk it! Then, when he can walk for distance up to around a 10 minute per mile rate, he can shift over to running and see some progress--real progress. What did the other guy suggest---that Steve add some sprinting into his routine. That won't work until Steve can go faster and he has to build up to that. And what's this "take a swipe at a fellow member of the club" crap? Ted wins all kinds of races in his age category. He DOES look like he's shuffling because he uses a flat-footed landing instead of the usual heel-to-toe landing that someone going faster would use while at the same time he is moving very slowly. You obviously know nothing about running, so get off my back and go back to poking your nose in somewhere else. Who the hell is picking a fight if it isn't YOU? Nobody asked you, and yet here you are, trying to start another fight. > An old psych professor of mine put it best; "Not everyone has an > illness or disorder. Not everyone is having problems adapting. Some > people are just jerks." > > Carmen An old psych professor of mine put it best: "Some people just like to butt in where they aren't wanted and aren't needed and her name is Carmen." or "learn that when someone is having a discussion, you aren't invited! Pat in TX > > > We have an 80 year old man in the club who runs at a 10 minute > > > mile. He shuffles along. I can't imagine what Steve looks like [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > first place. > Butt out! Google is not your friend when dissembling Pat. Anyone who cares to see it can look up the thread. This is Usenet, the discussions are public and I will *not* butt out. If you want to be a condescending jerk without being challenged by others you'll have to resort to email attacks. > "Poor guy, probably just having a hard time lately so he's looking > for [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > faster > would use while at the same time he is moving very slowly. Take another dig at Ted while you're at it. He certainly doesn't sound as if he's "moving very slowly" to me, and since he wins obviously the people with opinions that actually *matter* don't either. >You obviously know nothing about running, so get off my back and go >back to poking your nose in > somewhere else. Who the hell is picking a fight if it isn't YOU? > Nobody asked you, and yet here you are, trying to start another > fight. As I said earlier, I'll say my piece regardless of what you like or don't like Sparky. You were being a condescending jerk when what Steve needed was some constructive criticism. The very fact that he *can* run some now is clearly something he was proud of, yet you just jumped right on him to belittle his accomplishment. Nice. Everybody starts somewhere Mr. Big Stuff. > > An old psych professor of mine put it best; "Not everyone has an > > illness or disorder. Not everyone is having problems adapting. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Carmen." or "learn that when someone is having a discussion, you > aren't invited! You're kidding, right? (1) Once again, this is Usenet, the discussions are open to all. Email is for private conversations. (2) Most *3rd* graders have gone beyond the "mimic with substitutions stage". What's next, "I know you are but what am I?" Pathetic git. . > > Hold it right there! I did NOT try to pick a fight. I asked her if > > she was bringing race into it and she refused to give a direct [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > If you want to be a condescending jerk without being challenged by > others you'll have to resort to email attacks. You are attacking me without providing any proof of anything but your problem with "reading between the line." First, you misread what I wrote and misinterpret it, and then you attack me on this stuff you imagined. > Take another dig at Ted while you're at it. He certainly doesn't > sound as if he's "moving very slowly" to me, and since he wins > obviously the people with opinions that actually *matter* don't > either. I resent that! Ted is my friend and you are doing the "reading between the lines" again. You obviously do not know anything about running, so your opinion is worth squat. > >You obviously know nothing about running, so get off my back and go > >back to poking your nose in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > jumped right on him to belittle his accomplishment. Nice. > Everybody starts somewhere Mr. Big Stuff. Ah, so you don't want anyone to actually give Steve constructive criticism---you just want people to be cheer leaders! I was trying to help him, you nitwit. Again, it shows you know nothing about running or anything athletic. > You're kidding, right? (1) Once again, this is Usenet, the > discussions are open to all. Email is for private conversations. (2) > Most *3rd* graders have gone beyond the "mimic with substitutions > stage". What's next, "I know you are but what am I?" > > Pathetic git. Oh right, first you insult me and now you are surprised at being insulted right back. The discussion would be open to you if you actually had anything worthwhile to say, instead of trying to find insults where there aren't any and start fights. You are the classic sorry *&^* that just can't stop from butting in and trying to control the discussion. Go find somebody else to bully, because it just aint' happening here. Pat in TX > . >>> >>> Hold it right there! I did NOT try to pick a fight. I asked her if >>> she was bringing race into it and she refused to give a direct >>> answer. All >>> she had to do was say "yes" or "no" but she wouldn't even comment. Flat out lie. I answered. You can't read. Signaturerevek Let's just say that if complete and utter chaos was lightning, he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'. - Rincewind Expaining Twoflower, Terry Pratchett, The Color Of Magic >Ah, so you don't want anyone to actually give Steve constructive >criticism.. I tried, he acted like a butt, let him dangle in the wind for all I care. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap971110.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. >>Ah, so you don't want anyone to actually give Steve constructive >>criticism.. > > I tried, And you would be...? > he acted like a butt, Behaved badly towards the anonymous blowhard, did he? > let him dangle in the wind for all I > care. ! Pastorio > >Ah, so you don't want anyone to actually give Steve constructive > >criticism.. > > I tried, he acted like a butt, let him dangle in the wind for all I > care. There is a difference between: "I tried to give him good advice and he blew me off" and "I acted like a know it all and was condescending, and he told me where to stuff it". So you can chose to be decent about things, or cutting and sarcastic. I usually ignore sarcastic posts, because I don't have the tolerance to read through the drivel and separate it from the little good that could be in there. <I figured the change of thread title would appeal to your swollen head> Pat, it's clear you're always right no matter how wrong you are. Googling all the way back to your celtic@ticnet.com days you've always been an argumentative jerk. My bad. Carry on. Myself and anyone else who takes you to task for it are clearly just out to get you anyway <eyeroll>. Keep working on Steve. Maybe you can push him into ruining his ankle the same way you ruined yours, using the same tried and true techniques. Won't that be fun! Until then, please be a dear and find some stinging nettles to roll in. Carmen Pat, Pat, Pat... Do you always have this much trouble getting along with people? SignatureJC Eat less, exercise more. -- > > > > We have an 80 year old man in the club who runs at a 10 minute mile. [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Pat in TX > Pat, Pat, Pat... > > Do you always have this much trouble getting along with people? That's what I get for trying to help Steve with his exercise development. I didn't know that he needed a nanny to jump in and mommy him. First, HE asks for criticism and then she decides everyone should praise him . You know, though, I didn't see her post ONE suggestion for his question as to "how can I rid myself of this" 20% body fat question. A true mother hen. Maybe Steve should post only to Carmen in the future. Pat in TX > > Pat, Pat, Pat... > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Pat in TX Maybe Steve would be more happy with Richard Simmons' Sweatin to the Oldies. > > Pat, Pat, Pat... > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Pat in TX Pat, can you please tell me when I asked for criticism? I am missing that part of my post when I re read it. I cannot seem to find it! Now you put down Carmen for interjecting? Why, I am pretty certain that Carmen doesn't know me and I know I do not know her, she was just doing the decent thing and helping to point out how your "advice" is just a subtle insult. If you decide to actually read through the thread, look for roger and Carmen, and John, and other people giving encouragement, and tips on how to keep up the pace and eventually lose the weight. It must be nice to have a low body fat % from birth pat, and never had any sort of health problems. I hope that you consider yourself lucky that you were never in a position like many of us where we had to work from very little to become very strong. Then again, I consider myself LUCKY, because years down the road, I will have more character for the journey to good health I am taking than you will... Take care. Steve > Walking is better than >running when someone is walking that slow---and a 13 minute mile is so slow >that most people can walk it! Avoid gross generalizations. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap971110.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. > > > > you would be better off walking. > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Ask any doctor if it is preferable to walk or run vis a vis the pounding on > his joints..... > > > He is running. Therefore, he is going "fast enough to break into a run". > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > shuffles along. I can't imagine what Steve looks like doing a 13 minute > mile....he probably looks like he is ready to keel over. Wow, more condenscending banter from you Pat in Texas. Thanks. Btw, i am twenty three. I dont have bad joints, and i can run. If your eighty year old man can do a ten minute mile, then good on him. Quite frankly, i couldn't care less about what an eighty year old in some gym in Texas can run a mile in. I am thinking of my own health, not his ;-) > > That is exactly what i had thought. > > It made zero sense ot me that someone could sustain a twelve mile an hour [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Pat in TX > > We have an 80 year old man in the club who runs at a 10 minute mile. He > > shuffles along. I can't imagine what Steve looks like doing a 13 minute > > mile....he probably looks like he is ready to keel over. > > Wow, more condenscending banter from you Pat in Texas. > Thanks. I am trying to help you, numb nuts. Go ahead and shuffle along on your 13 minute mile and think you are somehow getting better. You have to have a "base" first before you can go faster. It's that way with any sport. First, you get the "base" work in and then you gradually improve to faster and more efficient. > Btw, i am twenty three. I dont have bad joints, and i can run. > If your eighty year old man can do a ten minute mile, then good on him. > > Quite frankly, i couldn't care less about what an eighty year old in some > gym in Texas can run a mile in. > I am thinking of my own health, not his ;-) I used Ted as a comparison because you should realize that someone as young as you are going as slow as you are doing is looking bad. Ted looks good because he used to run much faster when he was younger--after getting himself aerobically prepared. He also gets points for sticking to it. And, he doesn't run in a gym. He runs outdoors, in all weathers and he wins races or comes in second at every single one he participates in. You should be so lucky. Pat in TX > Wow, more condenscending banter from you Pat in Texas. > Thanks. Don't worry about Pat's comments, I think you've got the right idea. If 12 or 13 minutes per mile is comfortable, then run at that pace. Most of the really fast runners actually train at a speed that is very slow (for them). For example, an elite marathoner who can run a marathon at 5 minutes per mile will do most of his training a full 1 minute per mile slower (about 6 minutes per mile). But why bring up elite runners in context of such a discussion ? The point I want to make is that when it comes to running, there is a lot of value in training at a relatively easy intensity. So if you're comfortable running at 12 minutes per mile, then that is a perfectly good speed to run at. Actually, Pat could learn more from your mental approach (if he'd only shut up and listen) than you can from his. As for walking, it's a reasonable way to crosstrain, but not necessary (and certainly not a replacement for running). I prefer using hills or treadmill incline to increase intensity walking. Cheers, SignatureDonovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ > > Wow, more condenscending banter from you Pat in Texas. > > Thanks. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Cheers, > -- Thanks, that is a big compliment. I just keep the faith. If the mind is strong, the body always comes through and follows! >> > > you would be better off walking. >> > >> > Nonsense. > > Yes, he would be better off walking and walking fast because he is getting > discouraged by his slow running. Your running, 8 minutes per mile, also looks "ridiculously slow" to many people. For example, I run races at 6 minutes per mile. So I ask you -- do you get "discouraged" by your "slow running" ? >> > > That is, don't subject your body to the extra pounding of running >> > > until [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ask any doctor if it is preferable to walk or run vis a vis the pounding on > his joints..... If your only consideration is avoiding injury, then it's better to walk -- for someone who runs at my pace, your pace, or his pace. However, if some training effect is desired, one must weigh the risks against the training effect. There are risks whether you run quickly or slowly. Running slowly does not necessarily increase the risk. It increases the risk *per unit distance* because you take more steps to cover that distance, but it doesn't necessarily increase the risk *per unit time*. The bottom line is that if you're slow, you just can't do as much milage as a faster runner. If you keep that in mind, you can train safely. BTW, I have personally helped a runner who started off training at 15 minutes per mile. She now trains at 12 minutes per mile, and races at about 9:30 per mile. She's been doing this injury free for a year now. > We have an 80 year old man in the club who runs at a 10 minute mile. He > shuffles along. I can't imagine what Steve looks like doing a 13 minute > mile....he probably looks like he is ready to keel over. I bet he'd look a hell of a lot stupider if he injured himself because he couldn't keep his ego under control. The less gifted may look ungainly as they struggle along, but they still look a hell of a lot better than the ego-driven types (who are usually of only moderate ability anyway) I find it hard to believe for example that you cannot run at a 10 minute mile pace. I can run at a 10 minute mile pace, and I race at 6 minutes per mile. I think vanity (a) prevents you from running at slower paces, and (b) perhaps even prevents you from training at a pace that is appropriate for your fitness level. How fast do you train, and how fast do you race ? I bet you're one of those guys who trains at close to race speed. If this is the case, you should be taking advice from Steve, not the other way around. Cheers, SignatureDonovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ > >> > > you would be better off walking. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > So I ask you -- do you get "discouraged" by your "slow running" ? Thank you for stating what pat doesnt seem to understand. I do not worry that right now i can only run a 12 minute mile. I am not looking to destroy my legs and back by trying to run a four minute mile right away. When i started running three weeks ago, it took me fourteen minutes to run that mile i am now running in thirteen minutes, and with the good progress i am making, i am sure that in time i will get down to seven or eight minutes. The longest journey begins with a single step, as they say. > >> > > That is, don't subject your body to the extra pounding of running > >> > > until [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > However, if some training effect is desired, one must weigh the risks against > the training effect. And the training effect is what i want. I want to work into a HIIT routine in time. I do not weigh that much, so i may as well get the higher impact traning that my body can work with, at least this is how i see things. > There are risks whether you run quickly or slowly. Running slowly does not > necessarily increase the risk. It increases the risk *per unit distance* [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > per mile. She now trains at 12 minutes per mile, and races at about 9:30 per > mile. She's been doing this injury free for a year now. I am glad to hear that. All the power to her and yourself for helping her. :-) > > We have an 80 year old man in the club who runs at a 10 minute mile. He > > shuffles along. I can't imagine what Steve looks like doing a 13 minute [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Cheers, This definitely made me chuckle. I am taking small steps to get where I want to be, and I see nothing wrong with that, considering I am still a beginner. Hi Steve, On 10-Jan-2004, "Steven C \(Doktersteve\)" <real_doktersteve@hotmail.com> wrote: > This definitely made me chuckle. > I am taking small steps to get where I want to be, and I see nothing > wrong with that, considering I am still a beginner. I agree Steve. Once upon a time walking for 15 minutes at 2 mph on a flat surface was my maximum effort. Being 100 pounds overweight acts as a pretty effective hinderance. Nowadays I can *run*, and I didn't drop the weight or get to that stage by trying to do it all at once either. Take your time, you're doing fine. Take care, Carmen > >> > > you would be better off walking. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > So I ask you -- do you get "discouraged" by your "slow running" ? Nope, because that is more or less where I "maxed out." But nobody but nobody maxes out at 13 minutes per mile. > >> > > That is, don't subject your body to the extra pounding of running > >> > > until [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Cheers, I had to give up running. After playing soccer for 25 years and refereeing soccer, I wore out my ankle. After the reconstruction surgery, the doc said no more running. I was trying to help a newbie, that's all. It is clear to me that he needs aerobic training which fast walking would supply before getting into the pounding of running. But you know what, I don't need all the rubbish I am getting simply because I have a different approach to training for running. Aren't people to supposed to have their own ideas anymore, or if my idea differs from yours I am to be shouted down? Pat in TX >> >> > > you would be better off walking. >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Nope, because that is more or less where I "maxed out." "Maxing out" is not an effective way to train. It is a good way to get injured. But your point (which makes my point!) is understood all the same -- It's all relative. What feels "fast" to you might feel "very slow" to an elite runner. Or like an "easy jog" for a competitive club runner. Likewise, what feels reasonable to Steve probably feels very slow to you. Which is just fine, as long as nobody is forces you to run at the same pace as Steve. > But nobody but nobody maxes out at 13 minutes per mile. Some people may "max out" at 13 minutes per mile. As I argued elsewhere though, someone who "maxes out" at about 11 minutes per mile probably should do most of their training at around 13 minutes per mile. > I had to give up running. After playing soccer for 25 years and refereeing > soccer, I wore out my ankle. After the reconstruction surgery, the doc said > no more running. I was trying to help a newbie, You ridiculed his level of fitness, and told him that he looked worse than an 80 year old. Such conduct is seldom described as "helpful". If your intention really is to help, may I suggest a more diplomatic approach ? > that's all. It is clear to > me that he needs aerobic training which fast walking would supply before > getting into the pounding of running. Completing a program of about 6 weeks walking before commencing running is a good idea, sure. It's a low risk way to create a training foundation and prepare the bones, connective tissue and muscles. If you'd said that and only that in the first place, you would have gotten different responses. > But you know what, I don't need all the rubbish I am getting simply because I > have a different approach to training for running. Aren't people to supposed > to have their own ideas anymore, or if my idea differs from yours I am to be > shouted down? Wah wah wah wah wah ... Cheers, SignatureDonovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ >"Maxing out" is not an effective way to train. It is a good way to get injured. Avoid sweeping generalized statements that make you look like a fool. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap971110.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. >>"Maxing out" is not an effective way to train. It is a good way to get injured. > > Avoid sweeping generalized statements that make you look like a fool. Like this one...? Pastorio >Nope, because that is more or less where I "maxed out." But nobody but >nobody maxes out at 13 minutes per mile. Avoid gross misstatements like this. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap971110.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. > > >> > > you would be better off walking. > > >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Nope, because that is more or less where I "maxed out." But nobody but > nobody maxes out at 13 minutes per mile. Pat, when did I say I was maxed out at thirteen minutes per mile? You are too quick to jump to conclusions. >Ask any doctor if it is preferable to walk or run vis a vis the pounding on >his joints..... My Internist is a marathon runner. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap971110.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. >> Ask any doctor if it is preferable to walk or run vis a vis the >> pounding on >> his joints..... > > My Internist is a marathon runner. So? Ask some chiropractors. Personally, I've always gotten injured by jogging. SignatureBob M in CT remove 'x.' to reply >>> Ask any doctor if it is preferable to walk or run vis a vis the >>> pounding on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >So? So, "ask any doctor" means exactly that. > Ask some chiropractors. Pass. > Personally, I've always gotten injured by >jogging. Jogging is not running in many cases. There are hundreds of thousands of runners and joggers who never get injured. I was one of them. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap971110.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. >>Ask any doctor if it is preferable to walk or run vis a vis the pounding on >>his joints..... > > My Internist is a marathon runner. Some cardiologists are wacko fundamentalist cultists. MD degree is no guarantee of brilliance or logical actions. How come you need so many doctors? You've already said that you have several cardiologists. You say you're in the business of training people to be good performers. And healthy. How come you're so much in need of medical attention? Bad heart? Probably almost killed yourself with your obsessive body-worship and needed them to bail you out from your own foolishness. Pastorio > > Well pat, I guess we aren't all in the amazing shape you are in :( > > this is why I did not want to post this in mfw. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Pat in TX Pat, i still find it hard to believe you can WALK at 12 or 13 miles per hour. I am talking about trying to be able to run 1-1.25 miles in 11-12 minutes, which is pretty much normal for me. Remember pat, we arent all in the best shape here, lots of different people with different body types. I despise speed walking. > Pat, i still find it hard to believe you can WALK at 12 or 13.... Bend your elbows 90 degrees, pump your arms. You don't have to waddle like a racewalker to do 12 minute miles. 13mph is a different story, but that's not what he claimed. > When I read that you were "running" a 12 minutes mile, I thought I had read > it wrong. With me, I can still be walking at a 10 minute mile and anything > under that is finally breaking into a jog. That's awfully fast walking. > I used to sustain a good run at a > 8:00 minute mile--and Good for you. Why are you knocking his pace ? Are you trying to be an a.s or something ? Not everyone is as fast as you, but there are also some people who are a hell of a lot faster, so try to exercise some humility. > could go for a short time on about 7:30 mile (but I > am definitely not fast)! If you can barely run at 7:30 minutes per mile, 8:00 is an awfully fast pace to train at. Most serious runners train at about 1:30-2:00 minutes per mile slower than their 5k race pace. > Oh--maybe you're race walking. Did you know that some serious race walkers are quite a bit faster than 8:00 per mile ? So maybe you're race-walking too. Cheers, SignatureDonovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ > > ME: > > 5ft 7in [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > -S- > http://www.kbnj.com I would shoot myself if I looked as bas as Steve does. -- Robert Schuh "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality, the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors" - Nietzsche "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa > > I think you need to set your exercise sights higher, fellow Steve. I don't > > mean this condescendingly but I can walk faster than 13:00 per mile and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > -S- > > http://www.kbnj.com > I would shoot myself if I looked as bad as Steve does. > > -- > Robert Schuh Maybe they'll start shooting one of you instead of aiming at me all the time. You BOTH dared to criticize Steve! Pat in TX > Maybe they'll start shooting one of you instead of aiming at me all the > time. You BOTH dared to criticize Steve! Different Steve. Keep quiet for long enough, and they might start aiming at him instead. HTH, SignatureDonovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ [snip] >> I think you need to set your exercise sights higher, fellow Steve. I don't >> mean this condescendingly but I can walk faster than 13:00 per mile and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> real ab exercise for you, performed by yours truly: >> http://www.kbnj.com/Inverted_Wheel.rm) and learn about lifting weights. >I would shoot myself if I looked as bas as Steve does. Bad? In what way? Looks pretty buff to me!! ;-) Sarah Jahn > I would shoot myself if I looked as bas as Steve does. So how do you look nowadays anyway ? Any recent jpegs ? Cheers, SignatureDonovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ >Do things you can get which are over the counter type metabolism boosters an >alternative? They're called 20-rep squats. SignatureScott Johnson "be a man ,stop looking for handouts , eat ,lift and shut your mouth" -John Carlo > >Do things you can get which are over the counter type metabolism boosters an > >alternative? > > They're called 20-rep squats. Or a cup of good expresso! |
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