Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004
Atkins diet originally posted on Diabetes support
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Gerry - 11 Jan 2004 03:44 GMT I started the Atkins diet today...bought some ketone test strips and wonder what you guys think? Anyone done it, tried, been successful? I am relatively healthy, Type II diabetic with about 25 - 20 pounds, mostly around the stomach to lose. I work our regular and am pretty fit. I know I know I should see my doctor...and I will but it's a pain in the a.s to get in. I know normally high ketones in a diabetic is a bad thing but what if it is because of no carbs? Thanks Gerry
Steven C \(Doktersteve\) - 11 Jan 2004 04:05 GMT > I started the Atkins diet today...bought some ketone test strips and > wonder what you guys think? Anyone done it, tried, been successful? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks > Gerry Consult your doctor before you try this, please! I would hate to see anyone get hurt, and if you are diabetic, it is probably good to get your doc's ok before going and starting an Atkins diet.
FOB - 11 Jan 2004 04:24 GMT Gosh, Steven, haven't you been reading Jenny's posts? Gerry, I know Jenny will be along to give you some answers, in the meantime her website has a ton of information. http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
In news:xY3Mb.4841$wf1.1463@edtnps89, Steven C (Doktersteve) <real_doktersteve@hotmail.com> stated
|| I started the Atkins diet today...bought some ketone test strips and || wonder what you guys think? Anyone done it, tried, been successful? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | probably good to get your doc's ok before going and starting an | Atkins diet. Steven C \(Doktersteve\) - 11 Jan 2004 04:51 GMT > Gosh, Steven, haven't you been reading Jenny's posts? Gerry, I know Jenny > will be along to give you some answers, in the meantime her website has a > ton of information. > http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ unless Jenny is the OP's regular doctor, I suggest that the OP consult their doctor before radically changing the way that they eat.
Cubit - 11 Jan 2004 05:43 GMT Ya, ya, but doctors tell diabetics to eat carbs. Then the blood sugar goes up and up.
I gather doctors assume that higher fat will be dangerous, since diabetics have a higher rate of heart disease. However, they lack studies done in the context of low carb.
I never trust doctors, unless I have to.
Cubit Type 2 308/286/165
> > Gosh, Steven, haven't you been reading Jenny's posts? Gerry, I know Jenny > > will be along to give you some answers, in the meantime her website has a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > unless Jenny is the OP's regular doctor, I suggest that the OP consult their > doctor before radically changing the way that they eat. Roger Zoul - 11 Jan 2004 14:07 GMT :: Ya, ya, but doctors tell diabetics to eat carbs. Then the blood :: sugar goes up and up. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :: :: I never trust doctors, unless I have to. Not all doctors. My doctor supports my use of LC to control my BG. Now she didn't recommend it, but I found her AFTER I started LCing. She always kids me that I should write a book....
:: Cubit :: Type 2 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] ::: consult their doctor before radically changing the way that they ::: eat. carla - 11 Jan 2004 14:48 GMT > :: Ya, ya, but doctors tell diabetics to eat carbs. Then the blood > :: sugar goes up and up. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > didn't recommend it, but I found her AFTER I started LCing. She always kids > me that I should write a book.... My doctor was concerned that I might be insulin resistant or have some other prediabetic condition and specifically recommended that I look into a low-carb plan "such as South Beach" and see if I could lose weight on it. (She wanted me to consider taking Metformin as well, but I wanted to try to lose weight on my own before turning to drugs for it.)
The point is, of course, that some doctors have become convinced of the benefits of low carb diets for some patients.
carla 237/219/165?
CarbAddict - 11 Jan 2004 19:32 GMT > From: Cubit (Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:43:50 GMT) > MsgId: <qo5Mb.2734$kT4.1864@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com> > > Ya, ya, but doctors tell diabetics to eat carbs. Then the > blood sugar goes up and up. Exactly. Over Thanksgiving and Christmas, I've gradually tried to explain LC to my mom, who is a Diabetic who has been on Insulin for 25 years or so. She keeps saying her doctor says she can't do that or she'd be taking too much insulin and go into what she calls "reaction".
I wouldn't advise her to go against her doctor's directions, but the man is seriously starting to piss me off. Mom sits around eating cake and drinking orange juice so her sugar won't go too low. WTF?
If she'd control her blood sugar more through diet, she wouldn't need so much insulin. I don't know. Seems a lot like taking more and more aspirin to combat alcohol hangovers. Seems to me it would be more advantageous to just stop drinking so much alcohol.
mena - 12 Jan 2004 01:11 GMT *snip* my mom, who is a Diabetic who has been on Insulin for 25 years or so.
> She keeps saying her doctor says she can't do that or she'd be taking too > much insulin and go into what she calls "reaction". [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to combat alcohol hangovers. Seems to me it would be more advantageous to > just stop drinking so much alcohol. ______________________________
Low-carbing it *can* be dangerous for an Insulin-dependent diabetic. Your mother should consult a diabetes educator/nutritionist to learn the proper way to eat and to adjust her Insulin. She can control her lows and highs by adjusting both her eating and her Insulin. It makes no sense for any diabetic to be eating so many carbs in the form of cake and orange juice, both of which are simple carbs and cause spikes in BG. There is a very informative Usenet group that your mother may want to look into: alt.support.diabetes.
CarbAddict - 13 Jan 2004 04:02 GMT > From: mena (Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:11:40 -0600) > MsgId: <YbadnaLvQOVnbpzd4p2dnA@comcast.com> > > Low-carbing it *can* be dangerous for an Insulin-dependent > diabetic. Of course. But do you disagree with my basic principle that reducing carb intake from ridiculous levels should be a goal of any diabetic?
> Your mother should consult a diabetes educator/nutritionist > to learn the proper way to eat and to adjust her Insulin. You've never dealt with Medicare, have you? She's been dealing with so many doctors for her diabetes related issues that this is a lot easier said than done. She actually have an endo, but he's the one giving her enough insulin to sate a diabetic horse (I'm sure of it).
> She can control her lows and highs by adjusting > both her eating and her Insulin. I think I said that. :)
> It makes no sense for any diabetic to be eating so many > carbs in the form of cake and orange juice, both of which > are simple carbs and cause spikes in BG. I think I said that too. She eats/drinks like that to avoid reactions.
> There is a very informative Usenet group that your mother > may want to look into: alt.support.diabetes. Thanks, but since I'm old enough to have grown children, you can probably guess my mom's age. Or maybe age doesn't matter at all. Let's just say I buy her a computer every few years and I can sell it as new when she's done because it has no mileage on it. Or put another way, she's likely to pick up a mouse off the desk and physically touch it to the screen. Or put another way, we couldn't even get mom to watch TV until recently. She just figures if it's real news, it'll be in the newspapers. Depression era parents. What can you do?
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate it. I was more a ranting than anything.
Steven C (Doktersteve) wrote:
|| Gosh, Steven, haven't you been reading Jenny's posts? Gerry, I know || Jenny will be along to give you some answers, in the meantime her [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | unless Jenny is the OP's regular doctor, I suggest that the OP consult | their doctor before radically changing the way that they eat. I'm afraid I have to disagree. Anyone who blindly follows a doctor's advice is a fool. Many doctors do not keep up with the latest developments in various fields --such as nutrition -- and still cling to the old outdated misconceptions that eating low carb is bad, raising cholesterol levels and causing kidney failure. Even the American Diabetes Association's ideas are woefully outdated. They tell my sister in her monthly ADA meetings that it's perfectly ok to eat sugar and starches; that she needs instead to cut back on fat! She'll probably be eating a bowl of low-fat ice cream as they take her toes off one by one.
I always make sure I educate myself and have input into my own healthcare. Doctors are not gods, they are human beings who are swayed by personal prejudices the same as any of us. I don't trust someone to make decisions regarding my health or life just because they have an "MD" after their name unless I'm convinced that they are suggesting the right thing. Doctors work for the patient, not vice-versa; they can and should be fired for bad advice.
Case in point: When I had a stroke 5 years ago, a neurosurgeon saw a "spot" on the MRI of my brainstem the MRI, declared it a tumor (said it was probably malignant), and wanted to operate immediately. He tried to get me to sign a waiver that said there was a 40% chance of survival of the surgery, and that he would not be liable if I did not live through it. He said I would probably die without the surgery. I did not believe it was a tumor; I refused to sign; I told my family that if I became unconsious to absolutely not allow the surgery. The surgeon was *furious!!!* It turned out that the "spot" actually was a blood clot that was dissolved with Heparin and Cumadin without any sugery. I probably would be dead right now, literally, if I had blindly followed the neurologist's advice.
While this is an extreme example, it is nonetheless an apt analogy. If I know that there is a healthier way to eat, I'm not going to let a doctor who is probably biased against low-carb tell me not do it.
I would suggest that the OP read all the books she can -- buy or borrow from local library -- pertaining to diabetes and low carb (Bernstein et al), and make an educated decision based on her knowledge of herself and her own body. I can state this firsthand, because I myself was diagnosed one month ago as diabetic. I'm practicing what I'm preaching.
Plese don't misunderstand. I'm not saying to completely disregard al doctors' advice; that would be foolish. But neither should anyone blindly follow a doctor's advice without a full understanding of the issues and sulutions. Any doctor who is worth his salt will not only allow, but welcome the patient's input into his or her treatment.
Peter website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
FOB - 11 Jan 2004 18:27 GMT Well, I'm not saying a person should not see their doctor, however, they should go into the doctor's office educated about low carb and diabetes as far too many doctor are woefully ignorant of the recent studies in the field of nutrition. The OP's doctor might well discourge her/him from discovering a WOE that could be extremely beneficial.
In news:%C4Mb.4870$wf1.2893@edtnps89, Steven C (Doktersteve) <real_doktersteve@hotmail.com> stated
|| Gosh, Steven, haven't you been reading Jenny's posts? Gerry, I know || Jenny will be along to give you some answers, in the meantime her [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | unless Jenny is the OP's regular doctor, I suggest that the OP | consult their doctor before radically changing the way that they eat. Roger Zoul - 11 Jan 2004 04:35 GMT :: I started the Atkins diet today...bought some ketone test strips and :: wonder what you guys think? Anyone done it, tried, been successful? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :: Thanks :: Gerry You should see a doctor -- especially if you're on any kind of meds (you should have mentioned it one way or the other because it's an important issue).
What type of BG control do you have? What are your numbers in the AM?
Having said that, I started LCing without seeing my doctor and I was taking meds. My BG control improved greatly -- and I was exercising. Eventually I had to quit taking the meds because my BG would drop too low. Now I'm completely off meds.
I only used the strips for a brief time, but being in ketosis due to diet was not a problem especially if your BG is under control. Type 1s do have problems however, because they can be completely without insulin. For them, the presense of ketones can be deadly.
On, Atkins is not a no carbs diet. It's low carb. You should be eating the veggies listed for induction. I think the sticks are a waste of time and money, too. Just follow the plan, keep exercising, see your doc asap, and let things work.
Roger Zoul - 11 Jan 2004 04:38 GMT :: Gerry wrote: :::: I started the Atkins diet today...bought some ketone test strips [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] :: waste of time and money, too. Just follow the plan, keep :: exercising, see your doc asap, and let things work. Oh...and check your BG frequently to see how LCing is affecting it. You may start to bonk while exercising due to low BG.
lbudney@pobox.com - 11 Jan 2004 13:39 GMT > Oh...and check your BG frequently to see how LCing is affecting it. > You may start to bonk while exercising due to low BG. Yes--it's to be expected that insulin doses will be lower on LC! I recommend "Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution", which discusses this among other issues.
Regards, Len.
Gerry - 11 Jan 2004 09:46 GMT Funny, I was reading the original book and when I checked out the web site and found I could eat some vegetables the first week the diet doesn't look that unreasonable. I will be checking in with my doctor but I still started today. I will test my blood sugar regularly and make sure it does not go low. I am not on any meds for the diabetes so that probably wonts happen. My last A1C just before xmas was .056 so I am in good shape there. Thanks for all the advice. I will post my progress. Gerry
>I started the Atkins diet today...bought some ketone test strips and >wonder what you guys think? Anyone done it, tried, been successful? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Thanks >Gerry Mirek Fidler - 11 Jan 2004 10:16 GMT > Funny, I was reading the original book and when I checked out the web > site and found I could eat some vegetables the first week the diet For most most of us, I believe, low-carb ususally means replacing high-carb meals (pasta, potatoes, bread) by green vegetables and completly cutting out sugar. Do not believe "eggs and bacon" logo :) Yes, you will probably eat more fats than before, not as much more as you would think and as you have perhaps heard.
Mirek
lbudney@pobox.com - 11 Jan 2004 13:38 GMT >> Funny, I was reading the original book and when I checked out the >> web site and found I could eat some vegetables the first week the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > high-carb meals (pasta, potatoes, bread) by green vegetables and > completly cutting out sugar. Do not believe "eggs and bacon" logo :) I eat plenty of eggs and bacon. But then again, I get more veggies than when not doing low-carb.
> Yes, you will probably eat more fats than before, not as much more > as you would think and as you have perhaps heard. Actually, you are likely to eat *less* fat than before, unless you were on the Pritikin diet. Americans eat gobs of fat, along with heaps of carbs. If you restrict the carbs *and* try to keep your fiber up, you'll find that you aren't on a "high fat" diet at all, despite the negative hype out there...
Regards, Len.
Roger Zoul - 11 Jan 2004 14:11 GMT :: "Mirek Fidler" <cxl@volny.cz> writes: :::: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] :: fiber up, you'll find that you aren't on a "high fat" diet at all, :: despite the negative hype out there... That is so true about americans eating gobs of fat along with heaps of carbs. However, I do believe that most LCers eat what has to be considered a high fat diet, simply because that where most of the calories come from. Remember, the carbs are typically 5% or so, leaving only protein and fat for the other 95%.
revek - 11 Jan 2004 18:36 GMT >>> "Mirek Fidler" <cxl@volny.cz> writes: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > calories come from. Remember, the carbs are typically 5% or so, > leaving only protein and fat for the other 95%. Only if you look at percentages. If you look at number of calories or ounces of food things are more in line with 'normal' eating patterns. Because lowcarb is a restricted calorie diet-- and that restriction is mostly in the form of carbs---you get a skew in the percentages. Of course if you look at food groups, which dieticians/nutritionists/doctors never do, you would see a large drop in starches, but a huge increase in crunchy green vegetables at the same time. In my opinion, there is no objective standard to measure highness/lowness against so high and low are almost meaningless without context. (The Evil Conspiracy Against Lowcarbers knows this too and manipulates the world with those buzzwords).
Everything is relative. :)
 Signature revek "To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."
Roger Zoul - 11 Jan 2004 19:59 GMT :: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message :: news:1002mcme4a1e349@corp.supernews.com [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] :: :: Everything is relative. :) I agree with what you're saying. However, using percentages does make some sense. If you eat X calories and the greatest percent of those calories come from fat (by far, for many), then you can say you're on a high fat diet. Simple.
I don't mind saying I'm on a high fat diet or a diet that is high in fat. Fat is not the evil thing we have been lead to believe. (I want to pound that point into people's head, personally.) Of course, saying that one is on a high fat diet does not imply, as some would like to argue, that one is overeating. I think many tend to follow the words too closely without thinking further about what they really mean. I mean, saying "low fat" sounds better than saying "high carb" and saying "low carb" sounds better than saying "high fat". So, whose doing the talking will determine which terms one hears. I think using the ECALC terms works to our advantage, honestly. :)
Robin - 11 Jan 2004 15:38 GMT > Actually, you are likely to eat *less* fat than before, unless you > were on the Pritikin diet. Americans eat gobs of fat, along with heaps > of carbs. If you restrict the carbs *and* try to keep your fiber up, > you'll find that you aren't on a "high fat" diet at all, despite the > negative hype out there... I'm following Atkins, and in his book he actually says the more fat, the better. Even though he puts a limit on the carbs for induction, he writes that it's actually the ratio of fats to carbs that's most important. He says don't be afraid to eat fats. So I can see why people would think following Atkins means a high-fat diet. I'm fairly certain I'm eating more fat than I was pre-Atkins. However, the presumption is that fats are okay when the carbs are limited to a low value.
lbudney@pobox.com - 12 Jan 2004 16:51 GMT > I wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > he writes that it's actually the ratio of fats to carbs that's most > important. He says don't be afraid to eat fats... Right. But the average American _already_ eats tons of fat; my remark is that going on Atkins doesn't usually represent a dramatic increase in fat intake, unless you used to restrict your fats.
And the main point in his patter, according to Atkins (though I've lost track of the quote) is to break the psychological fear of fat. For example, though he says "the more fat, the better", he certainly doesn't recommend an all-butter diet.
> So I can see why people would think following Atkins means a > high-fat diet. Yes, I can see why they'd think so.
But picture a steak salad with blue-cheese dressing. That's more in line with his actual recommendations, outside the induction period: enough veggies to get the necessary fiber intake; a tiny bit of fruit if that floats your boat; and enough meat, cheese, nuts, eggs, etc., to complete your meal and ensure that you aren't ever hungry.
Fat is not restricted, but the diet isn't nearly the constant orgy of drippy bacon and mayonnaise-by-the-spoon that people seem to imagine.
> I'm fairly certain I'm eating more fat than I was pre-Atkins. It's possible. I eat far less. Pre-Atkins, I took several meals per week at McDonald's, including breakfast. I'm not that atypical--at McD's, I got to know many regulars who showed as often as I did.
> However, the presumption is that fats are okay when the carbs are > limited to a low value. Correct. But we're still about healthy eating; we just realize that the common idea of healthy eating is wrong. Hopefully, for example, we seek out high-fiber veggies--and leave room for them in our carb quota by avoiding carby junk foods.
Regards, Len.
| Actually, you are likely to eat *less* fat than before, unless you | were on the Pritikin diet. Americans eat gobs of fat, along with heaps [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Regards, | Len. I don't think so. Atkns is a high-fat, moderate protein, low carbohydrate eating plan. I eat more fat than I used to, along with the loer carbohyrates. The point being, of course, that fat is more filling and it metabolized more slowly than carbs, preventing the insulin spikes and crashes after eating that begins the vicious hunger and overeating cycle ...
This way of eating also means getting rid of the old false notions that "fat is bad, carbs are good." It is the opposite.
 Signature Peter website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
Len Budney - 12 Jan 2004 12:25 GMT >| Actually, you are likely to eat *less* fat than before, unless you >| were on the Pritikin diet. Americans eat gobs of fat, along with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > carbohydrate eating plan. I eat more fat than I used to, along > with the loer carbohyrates... That well could be--but the average american eats an amazing amount of fat in addition to carbs. For many, the fat is held constant or decreases, while the carbs radically decrease.
In practice, my diet is high protein, moderately high fat, and low carb. When people refer to it as a "butter-n-bacon diet", I reply that it's more like a "steak-salad diet", since that's more like the prototypical Atkins meal. Living on steak salads and similar is actually much lower fat than the American diet.
> The point being, of course, that fat is more filling and it > metabolized more slowly than carbs, preventing the insulin spikes and > crashes after eating that begins the vicious hunger and overeating > cycle... Quite right.
> This way of eating also means getting rid of the old false notions that "fat > is bad, carbs are good." It is the opposite. Right. But it isn't a "stuff yourself with butter and mayo till you puke" diet, as people often allege.
Regards, Len.
| In practice, my diet is high protein, moderately high fat, and low | carb. When people refer to it as a "butter-n-bacon diet", I reply that | it's more like a "steak-salad diet", since that's more like the | prototypical Atkins meal. Living on steak salads and similar is | actually much lower fat than the American diet. Again, on the Atkins plan, most calories come from fat, not protein. Anything other than this is not Atkins. If you choose to eat high-protein and lower fat, please don't attribuite it to Atkibs; it only perpetuates the false "high protein" myth that conjures up visions of kidney failure. You have invented your own diet loosely based on Atkins, but unwillig to let go of the outdated "fat-is-bad" thinking that is defiitely not part of Atkins.
 Signature Peter website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
lbudney@pobox.com - 12 Jan 2004 16:42 GMT >| In practice, my diet is high protein, moderately high fat, and low >| carb...Living on steak salads and similar is actually much lower [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Anything other than this is not Atkins. If you choose to eat > high-protein and lower fat, please don't attribuite it to Atkibs... Atkins mandates restricting carbs. He does not dictate a preference for fat over protein. In practice, many of us on Atkins eat plenty of meat, cheese, nuts and the like--we do not eat spoonfuls of mayonnaise and butter as our primary energy source. YMMV.
> ...it only perpetuates the false "high protein" myth that conjures > up visions of kidney failure... The deaths in the '70s resulted from diets based on taking little beside collagen-based drinks. There is no resemblance whatsoever between those diets and diets rich in natural animal and plant protein.
> You have invented your own diet loosely based on Atkins, but > unwillig to let go of the outdated "fat-is-bad" thinking that is > defiitely not part of Atkins.... Did I say "fat is bad"? No. I merely mentioned the fact that many people consume less of it on Atkins than they did in their previous life. In fact, it was DR. ATKINS, not me, who states that the Atkins diet is "not a high-fat diet". See for example:
<http://tinyurl.com/28qs8> point #9. <http://tinyurl.com/2e9d2> point #2.
[I read a quote by Atkins himself remarking that people on his diet actually consume less fat than the average American--but I can't find it right now.]
Regards, Len.
lbudney@pobox.com - 11 Jan 2004 13:35 GMT > I started the Atkins diet today...bought some ketone test strips and > wonder what you guys think? Anyone done it, tried, been successful? I've been pretty successful twice! :-)
I'm on my third try; a layoff and rough year led to a major weight gain. I'm not diabetic, though I'm very high risk: _everyone_ in my family has developed Type II diabetes later in life.
> I am relatively healthy, Type II diabetic with about 25 - 20 pounds, > mostly around the stomach to lose. I strongly recommend a read of "Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution". He's a Type I diabetic who uses and recommends low carb. He discusses diet in the context of one's overall regime. An excellent read.
> I work our regular and am pretty fit. I know I know I should see my > doctor...and I will but it's a pain in the a.s to get in. Do!
> I know normally high ketones in a diabetic is a bad thing but what > if it is because of no carbs? There's a difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis. The keto-strips are normally used by diabetics to detect the latter, but presence of ketones does not actually _prove_ that you have ketoacidosis. They are also present when you are merely in ketosis. Ketosis is considered benign. Somebody else will have to post the scientific details.
Regards, Len.
revek - 11 Jan 2004 18:51 GMT >> I started the Atkins diet today...bought some ketone test strips and >> wonder what you guys think? Anyone done it, tried, been successful? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Regards, > Len. Ok. http://tinyurl.com/ypvsj
 Signature revek "It must be considered that there is nothing more difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to handle, than to initiate a new order of things. For the reformer has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the new order. This lukewarmness arising partly from fear of their adversaries, who have the laws in their favor; and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who do not truly believe in anything new until they have had actual experience of it." -Niccolo Machiavelli, "The Prince", Chapter 6, 1537
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