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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004

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Why ketosis?

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SLR - 13 Jan 2004 22:22 GMT
I'm still on induction, and still losing weight.
But I'm not yet convinced that low carb has any deep magic
over low-calorie in general

My experience so far is that lowering carbs is doing two things:

1. It's weaning (or, in the case of Atkins induction, bludgeoning) me off
high GI carbs

and

2. It is lowering my calorie intake, because I'm getting fed up with
not having carbs, and so am unwittingly reducing *calories* as
a result

And Atkins says there's a third effect - the metabolic advantage.
That is, he's saying:

3. The very act of burning a calorie itself requires  energy (i.e.
calories),
and the act of burning a fat calorie consumes more energy than the act of
burning a carb calorie

Although point 1 does have some additional effects, the overwhelming
effect of points 1, 2 and 3 seems to be the increasing of an individual's
daily *calorie* deficit.

And that's why I'm losing weight.  As far as I can see, ketosis is just
a bit of science chucked in to bamboozle the non-medics among
us.  But in fact, fat is getting burned provided one has a calorie
intake less than the calorie output.  Same old story.

Am I wrong?  Is there something else in low-carb'ing, other than
it tends to mean you consume fewer calories than you need?

slr

P.S. Now maybe ketosis just is what happens when one has a calorie
deficit.  Fine.  But in that case, you don't have to low-carb to achieve
it.  You just have to lower calories.

P.P.S. None of this is meant to say that the Atkins diet (for example)
is a waste of space.  It may still provide an invaluable psychological
factor, to motivate the dieter.  Certainly I'm currently finding that it
does.
Lady o' the house - 13 Jan 2004 22:34 GMT
> I'm still on induction, and still losing weight.
> But I'm not yet convinced that low carb has any deep magic
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> factor, to motivate the dieter.  Certainly I'm currently finding that it
> does.

My main reason for starting low carb was because I felt like crap.  Low
carbing has given my LOADS of energy, when before I rode the blood sugar
roller coaster.  Losing weight is a very welcome side effect.

I think we in the western world eat WAY too much refined sugar, flour, and
just way too much period.  Cutting out soda pop, candy, treats, white bread,
and other processed food has made me feel wonderful.  I think it's not just
a diet, but a very healthful way of eating.  Later, after I've reached my
goal, I plan to be eating small amounts of whole grains, so I won't give up
grains forever.  Atkins is re-teaching me how much to eat.

Linda
DigitalVinyl - 14 Jan 2004 00:32 GMT
>I'm still on induction, and still losing weight.
>But I'm not yet convinced that low carb has any deep magic
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>1. It's weaning (or, in the case of Atkins induction, bludgeoning) me off
>high GI carbs

Atkins and others talk about food addictions, especially carbohydrate
addiction. If you suffer from such a thing, the diet is geared to help
you more. An example is eating certain hi-carb meals and an hour later
being hungry again for no legitimate reason. A bagel for breakfast
would make me ravenous by 11 AM. If I ate nothing at all I'd be fine
till 2 PM. Afternoon crashes is another example. Breaking away from
addictive carbs is a big deal for some, something other traditional
diets have ignored.

>and
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>Am I wrong?  Is there something else in low-carb'ing, other than
>it tends to mean you consume fewer calories than you need?
From reading the book it mentions that studies showed that higher-carb
diets lost less weight and not all of it came from fat. One of the
reasons that diets tell you to exercise is that the body will draw
from fat and muscle to make up the caloric deficit. And here's where I
fog on the science... the low carb/absence causes the body to shift to
just burning fats. I think it is wrapped up in the fact that you are
not hungry, yet still starving the body of traditional energy source.
Atkins quotes studies that show that ultra-low carb levels results in
100% fat loss.

It also caused greater weight loss than fasting. The weight lost was
even greater than the calorie deficit. The idea seemed to be that when
the body converts fat into the ketones, excess ketones are wasted out
of the body. How efficient lo-carb is seems to depend upon your
metabolism and how much overweight you are. Someone 100 lbs overweight
will lose more than someone 30 lbs-- i thinking more fat stores to
readily convert to ketones.

For someone with extra 10-20 pounds I'd think any diet that was
manageable for them would be about equal.

>P.S. Now maybe ketosis just is what happens when one has a calorie
>deficit.  Fine.  But in that case, you don't have to low-carb to achieve
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>factor, to motivate the dieter.  Certainly I'm currently finding that it
>does.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
Chauncey Gardiner - 14 Jan 2004 00:44 GMT
> 1. It's weaning (or, in the case of Atkins induction, bludgeoning) me off
> high GI carbs

I'm not sure the same is true in my case.  For example, last night I
ate a 20-oz. steak for dinner.  But I haven't been that methodical
about counting my calories, so it's possible I'm down overall.

Fats are OK on Atkins, and they are considerably more caloric than
carbs.

> P.S. Now maybe ketosis just is what happens when one has a calorie
> deficit.  Fine.  But in that case, you don't have to low-carb to achieve
> it.  You just have to lower calories.

My understanding is that ketosis will result when you metabolize fat.
If you eat few enough calories, you will metabolize fat.  But lack of
carbs will also put you into ketosis without the reduction in calories
that would otherwise be necessary.  That's why we like Atkins!

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Dave - 19 Jan 2004 02:25 GMT
>My understanding is that ketosis will result when you metabolize fat.
>If you eat few enough calories, you will metabolize fat.  But lack of
>carbs will also put you into ketosis without the reduction in calories
>that would otherwise be necessary.

Ah, but metbolizing fat is meaningless to weight loss unless it is
stored fat!  If you're eating more calories than you're expending, you
won't lose weight.  The ketosis you describe is just the burning of
the fat you take in, it's not necessarily weight loss fat.
Howard - 14 Jan 2004 02:10 GMT
>But I'm not yet convinced that low carb has any deep magic
>over low-calorie in general

Correct.  Although on low-carb, you have much less tendency to be
hungry all the damned time, and that helps a *lot*.

>My experience so far is that lowering carbs is doing two things:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>And Atkins says there's a third effect - the metabolic advantage.
>That is, he's saying:

The metabolic advantage, if any, is slight.  If you want better
results, exercise, and be sure to get adequate sleep.

---
Howard Lee Harkness
Insurance for H1-Bs: http://www.H1Bins.com
Healthcare for the uninsurable: http://www.AFFHC.com
Medigap insurance information: http://medigap.supremesite.net
Howard - 14 Jan 2004 02:13 GMT
>And that's why I'm losing weight.  As far as I can see, ketosis is just
>a bit of science chucked in to bamboozle the non-medics among
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Am I wrong?  Is there something else in low-carb'ing, other than
>it tends to mean you consume fewer calories than you need?

Ketosis is the body's mechanism for burning fat, nothing more, nothing
less.  Every normal, healthy human who is not *gaining* weight is in
ketosis for at least 4-6 hours of every day.  Every normal, healthy
human who is *losing* weight is in ketosis most or all of the day,
even if it doesn't register on the (expensive and unnecessary) piss
strips.

---
Howard Lee Harkness
Insurance for H1-Bs: http://www.H1Bins.com
Healthcare for the uninsurable: http://www.AFFHC.com
Medigap insurance information: http://medigap.supremesite.net
Dave - 19 Jan 2004 02:30 GMT
There are numerous health advantages to reducing carbs, or at least
high glycemic index ones, for overall health, but you've learned what
I've always preached here in the past:  calories count so count
calories.  

You can't lose weight if you're consuming enough energy daily to meet
all your daily energy needs.

>I'm still on induction, and still losing weight.
>But I'm not yet convinced that low carb has any deep magic
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>factor, to motivate the dieter.  Certainly I'm currently finding that it
>does.
Maxine - 19 Jan 2004 16:52 GMT
This points has helped me to realise why my weight loss has stalled.  I have
been stuck at the same weight for 3 months now and have only added a slice
of melon and 75 grms of nuts over induction levels.  I have never been out
of ketosis but my weight loss has stalled.  I am therefore going to have to
look at reducing calories as well as managing my carbs and trying to
increase my exercise, though this might have to wait until spring.  Thanks
for info.
> There are numerous health advantages to reducing carbs, or at least
> high glycemic index ones, for overall health, but you've learned what
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> >factor, to motivate the dieter.  Certainly I'm currently finding that it
> >does.
Dave - 20 Jan 2004 14:13 GMT
>I am therefore going to have to
>look at reducing calories as well as managing my carbs and trying to
>increase my exercise, though this might have to wait until spring.  Thanks
>for info.

I think a small increase in exercise (read as activity) is more
beneficial than trying to reduce calories a small bit.  There are
benefits to increased activity besides the extra calorie expenditure,
not the least of which is improved mood.
Doug Freyburger - 21 Jan 2004 00:25 GMT
> This points has helped me to realise why my weight loss has stalled.  I have
> been stuck at the same weight for 3 months now and have only added a slice
> of melon and 75 grms of nuts over induction levels.  I have never been out
> of ketosis but my weight loss has stalled.

Staying too low is one of the most common causes of stalls.  First find
your CCLL by spending a week out of ketosis.  That will almost certainly
break your stall.

> I am therefore going to have to
> look at reducing calories as well as managing my carbs

When you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.  Do the
process first, increase your carbs to find your CCLL.
 
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