Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004
Question about keto-stix and exercise, etc.
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Frank - 20 Jan 2004 19:06 GMT Can someone clarify: I'm on a ketogenic diet to burn fat fast. Am I right in thinking that the darker my keto-sticks read, the more fat I'm burning? And am I right in thinking that if I minimise my dietary fat intake, then my body will be forced to burn more body fat?
Also: any tips on exercise while on this diet? What type of exercise burns the most fat? I'm a fit male aged 50. I'm currently doing 30 minutes of cardio on a tradmill followed by ten minutes on weights (in both cases, I try to keep my pulse above the 'target rate' of 130 bpm. I am definitely losing weight without too much discomfort. Anyone offer any additional advice or put me right on any of these points?
Thank you
Frank
Sandy K. - 20 Jan 2004 19:10 GMT > Can someone clarify: I'm on a ketogenic diet to burn fat fast. Am I > right in thinking that the darker my keto-sticks read, the more fat > I'm burning? And am I right in thinking that if I minimise my dietary > fat intake, then my body will be forced to burn more body fat? You are somewhat correct. The darker the sticks, the more ketones are being released through your urine. I equate that with burning fat. However, and this is based on Atkins, if you minimize the amount of fat you eat, then your body will tend to store fat. The idea being that when you consume foods high in fats (and I sugggest good fats) then your body will allow you to burn your fat stores. That's why low-fat diets don't work very well.
> Also: any tips on exercise while on this diet? What type of exercise > burns the most fat? I'm a fit male aged 50. I'm currently doing 30 > minutes of cardio on a tradmill followed by ten minutes on weights (in > both cases, I try to keep my pulse above the 'target rate' of 130 bpm. > I am definitely losing weight without too much discomfort. Anyone > offer any additional advice or put me right on any of these points? Any and al exercise is good for you. Be sure to drink lots of water, read the diet plan and go from there....
Good luck, Sandy K. 237/211.5/180 LC since 9/2/03
DJ Delorie - 20 Jan 2004 19:28 GMT > Can someone clarify: I'm on a ketogenic diet to burn fat fast. Am I > right in thinking that the darker my keto-sticks read, the more fat > I'm burning? Not always. It depends on how much fat you eat, and how much water you drink. The ketostix are there just to tell you that you've gone into ketosis (i.e. your carb intake is low enough). The actual color doesn't matter, as long as it's non-beige.
> And am I right in thinking that if I minimise my dietary fat intake, > then my body will be forced to burn more body fat? Up to a point. If you drop calories too low, your body starts slowing down its metabolism (antibody production, CNS response, core temp, etc), which is bad for other reasons.
The most extreme non-fasting diet is a "protein sparing modified fast" where you eat sufficient protein, but little fat and carbs (some fat for EFAs, some carbs to limit protein->carb conversions).
> I'm currently doing 30 minutes of cardio on a tradmill followed by > ten minutes on weights I'd swap these two. Better, do 5-10 min of cardio as a warm-up, then the weights, and then the rest of the cardio. You want to do weights when you have the most muscle glycogen, so you can get the most performance (and thus best strength improvements).
> I am definitely losing weight without too much discomfort. So what's your problem? ;-)
Frank - 20 Jan 2004 20:37 GMT >>Frank32@nospam.net (Frank) writes: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> >>So what's your problem? ;-) No problem. ;-) just wanted to make sure I'm doing things right... Thanks for the tip on exercising. I came to the same conclusion today, but for a different reason: 10 mins of cardio prior to weight-training, helps prevent joint problems etc (or so my gym trainer says).
Do you happen to know what the ideal intake of good fats is per day when on a ketogenic diet? (i.e., to stop the body from wanting to retain body fat? I'm eating a small amount of veggies and nuts with my whey powder shakes and eggs. I'm a vegetarian so I don't use meat. I take a break from the diet one day a week. This stops me from feeling too weird, keeps my energy up... I'm told it restores liver glycogen so that one can exercise more effectively.
You mentioned the benefits of taking some carbs to limit "protein->carb conversion". Can you expand on that? I generally eat a little carb in the form of a few vegetables each day, but not enough to put me out of ketosis. Is that about right?
Thanks again, and thanks to Sandy K too...
Frank
DJ Delorie - 20 Jan 2004 21:50 GMT > No problem. ;-) just wanted to make sure I'm doing things right... > Thanks for the tip on exercising. I came to the same conclusion today, > but for a different reason: 10 mins of cardio prior to > weight-training, helps prevent joint problems etc (or so my gym > trainer says). Yup, it's a warm-up. You want to do some cardio beforehand, but not too much.
> Do you happen to know what the ideal intake of good fats is per day > when on a ketogenic diet? (i.e., to stop the body from wanting to > retain body fat? This boils down to calories. If you eat less calories than you burn, you burn body fat. LC makes some people's metabolisms work more, or more efficiently, hence they burn more, but it's still in vs out. See: http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/proteincalc.htm
> I'm eating a small amount of veggies and nuts with my whey powder > shakes and eggs. I'm a vegetarian so I don't use meat. Olives, mayo, cheese too.
> I take a break from the diet one day a week. This stops me from > feeling too weird, keeps my energy up... I'm told it restores liver > glycogen so that one can exercise more effectively. Liver glycogen has little to do with exercise. It's muscle glycogen that counts. Liver glycogen helps in the long run by keeping insulin up and promoting an anabolic metabolism, but asdlc experience says it isn't significant (for us LCers at least). Most LCers either use TKD (some carbs just after workout) or CKD (carb-up once a week) to replenish muscle glycogen.
Also note that a regular "off-diet" meal or day is a major psych boost, and can help you stick to your diet longer (i.e. better long-term results). Whatever works for you. Note, however, that mixing high carbs and high fat at the same time may cause problems. If you do a high-carb meal/day, try to limit fats for those meals/days.
> You mentioned the benefits of taking some carbs to limit > "protein->carb conversion". Can you expand on that? If the liver is low on glycogen, it will convert up to 58% of the protein you eat into carbs. How much depends on the types of proteins and the glycogen depletion. So, each gram of carbs you eat spares about two grams of protein.
> I generally eat a little carb in the form of a few vegetables each > day, but not enough to put me out of ketosis. Is that about right? It won't stop the carb conversion. The veggies are there to provide micronutrients and fiber more than anything else.
AmyB - 20 Jan 2004 22:35 GMT > > No problem. ;-) just wanted to make sure I'm doing things right... > > Thanks for the tip on exercising. I came to the same conclusion today, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > (some carbs just after workout) or CKD (carb-up once a week) to > replenish muscle glycogen. For me at least, this LC thing just got really complicated. Could you point me toward some more info on whatever TKD and CKD are? I thought the purpose of the induction phase of the LC WOE was to deplete the liver of its stored glycogen. But what you are saying is that the body will convert protein into carbs? Then why will the body ever burn fat (which I know it does)? I've also tried to figure out Jenny's protein calculator, and man it's tough and believe it or not, I've got a B.S in Chem. with a minor in math. Someone should offer to write her a program to figure it out for different inputs. (I can't program worth sh*t)
> Also note that a regular "off-diet" meal or day is a major psych > boost, and can help you stick to your diet longer (i.e. better [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > It won't stop the carb conversion. The veggies are there to provide > micronutrients and fiber more than anything else. So what kind of carbs should one ingest to spare the protein from conversion if not vegi's?
I'm really not trying to come off as a complete idiot, but . . . . I wish I knew more about the biochemistry of this WOE!!
-- AmyB LC since 12/01/03 238/227/165
DJ Delorie - 20 Jan 2004 23:38 GMT > For me at least, this LC thing just got really complicated. Ok, then... ignore TKD and CKD for now. Ignore the protein issue. For Induction, just worry about the carb level and NOTHING ELSE.
> Could you point me toward some more info on whatever TKD and CKD > are? TKD - targetted ketogenic diet CKD - cyclic ketogenic diet
Google should be able to find plenty of info on these, or the ASDLC FAQ. They're mostly for weight training anyway. TKD simplified - eat 50g of carbs with 25g protein after each workout. Some "post workout" bars or shakes happen to have those amounts in them.
> I thought the purpose of the induction phase of the LC WOE was to > deplete the liver of its stored glycogen. The purpose of induction is to get you started (hence the name). A few things happen: liver glycogen is depleted, inducing ketosis. Insulin levels are reduced, which reduces hunger. Your brain and other body organs switch to burning ketones instead of carbs. Your muscles learn to burn FFAs instead of carbs.
> But what you are saying is that the body will convert protein into > carbs? Then why will the body ever burn fat (which I know it does)? The protein conversion is (1) slow and (2) usually not enough to push you out of ketosis without eating a *LOT* of protein (~200g). It's been known to happen, but it's about twice the protein anyone really needs.
The body burns fat when there aren't enough calories for what it needs to do. Ketosis simply makes this a lot easier for your body to do.
> I've also tried to figure out Jenny's protein calculator, and man > it's tough and believe it or not, I've got a B.S in Chem. with a > minor in math. Someone should offer to write her a program to figure > it out for different inputs. (I can't program worth sh*t) Here's an example:
20g carbs = 80 kcals 100g protein = 400 kcals 1800 kcals total, minus 400, minus 80, is 1320 kcals remaining 1320 kcals = 147g fats
But yeah, an online form would help.
> > It won't stop the carb conversion. The veggies are there to provide > > micronutrients and fiber more than anything else. > So what kind of carbs should one ingest to spare the protein from conversion > if not vegi's? More veggies, of course. But the 20g carb limit isn't enough to stop the conversion; you'd have to eat 100g or more (i.e. leave ketosis) to fully stop it. After Induction, you'll be increasing your carb intake anyway. Besides, you don't need to stop the conversion - it's a normal thing for your body to do and won't usually cause problems.
> I'm really not trying to come off as a complete idiot, but . . . . > I wish I knew more about the biochemistry of this WOE!! You don't alway need to know more, unless you're that kind of obsessive compulsive personality like me.
AmyB - 21 Jan 2004 00:59 GMT > > For me at least, this LC thing just got really complicated. > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > But yeah, an online form would help. You know, (this is kinda OT for this thread but), I just noticed on Fitday, that the program does not count the calories included in the fiber that is listed as part of the carb. I.e., for the day (as of now) I have eaten 16g carbs of which 4 are fiber, the calories listed are 49kcal. Hmm? How does that work for nutritional labels? I assume they use total carbs in grams and multiply by 4kcal/carb(g). Should fiber count toward calories, and if not how would you suggest to use Jenny's formula to determine the calories: total carbs or net carbs?
> > > It won't stop the carb conversion. The veggies are there to provide > > > micronutrients and fiber more than anything else. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You don't alway need to know more, unless you're that kind of > obsessive compulsive personality like me. I'm not neccessarily trying to be complusive (not that there's anything WRONG with that ;), but I am trying to accumulate as much information as I can as there are some people in my life that are not convinced that this WOE is 'safe' or healthy. TIA
-- AmyB LC since 12/01/03 238/227/165
DJ Delorie - 21 Jan 2004 02:33 GMT > I just noticed on Fitday, that the program does not count the > calories included in the fiber that is listed as part of the carb. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > if not how would you suggest to use Jenny's formula to determine the > calories: total carbs or net carbs? In general, fiber doesn't count. If it's included in the carb amount, subtract it to get net carbs. So, (16 - 4) * 4 = 48 (close enough). Use net carbs for pretty much everything.
Actually, though, fiber has a calorie count of about 2kcal/g (it's metabolized differently than sugars, though). It really only matters if you're eating a buttload (which it will be) of fiber.
> > You don't alway need to know more, unless you're that kind of > > obsessive compulsive personality like me. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > information as I can as there are some people in my life that are > not convinced that this WOE is 'safe' or healthy. Just tell them you cut down on sweets, and are eating more lean meats (er, or not if you're vegetarian) and green veggies.
Fran - 21 Jan 2004 15:04 GMT >>I've also tried to figure out Jenny's protein calculator, and man it's tough >>and believe it or not, I've got a B.S in Chem. with a minor in math. It's also hard to know how much reliable it is, when the web page includes blatant errors such as: "Example: .36 * 150 lbs. gives a daily requirement of 54 gms for muscle repair for the lady in our example."
Fran
Doug Freyburger - 21 Jan 2004 14:58 GMT > > > > I am definitely losing weight without too much discomfort. > > > > So what's your problem? ;-) > > No problem. ;-) just wanted to make sure I'm doing things right... Even with success, it can be worth it to play optimization games.
> I take a break from the diet one day a week. This stops me from > feeling too weird, keeps my energy up... I'm told it restores liver > glycogen so that one can exercise more effectively. In the long run it is much more effective to follow the core Atkins process as it is written. If you're on Atkins anyways! The Atkins process in OWL *WILL* stop you from feeling wierd by the end of the second or third week, so by doing that cycling you are prolonging it in an effort to fight it. By fighting it you give it strength. As to glycogen and exercise, you need to invest the month it takes for the body to adjust before you can get the benefit of added endurance. In this too, your cycling is preventing that from happening and by fighting the issue you make the problems stronger. The way out is through.
> Do you happen to know what the ideal intake of good fats is per day > when on a ketogenic diet? (i.e., to stop the body from wanting to > retain body fat? Being in ketosis makes the body stop wanting to store new fat. Simple as that. Once in ketosis the balance of hormones favors glucagon over insulin and fat flows *out* of storage. Once in ketosis it takes a vast overdose of dietary fat to force it against the flow. The one example the Atkins Center has was a person who ate an entire stick of butter each night as a snack in addition to the usual three digit Atkins fat intake. I'm certain you're not eating over a hundred extra grams of fat, so that's not an issue for you.
For the ideal level of fat, it's in principle simple and in process laborius. It takes combining several guidelines from various sources. I'll go over how to get the ideal levels for the various numbers and then use myself as an example for the arithmatic. Note well that when discussing "ideal" any system that is one-size-fits-all should not be considered at all if there is a custom-tuned process available.
Atkins supplied a process that custom tunes the ideal carb level for each individual body, the CCLL, just below the level that knocks you out of ketosis. Eating carbs under the CCLL reduces T3 output and leptin output and results in more stalls than at CCLL. But Atkins only gives you your ideal carb level so we must move on to other sources. My CCLL is 50, so that will be used in the arithmatic below.
Eades in Protein Power supplied a process that custom tunes the ideal protein level for each individual body, the minimum to maintain lean mass. Any more than that and protein gets burned as fuel. The trick is it gets converted to glucose at somewhere around 40-50% efficiency. Thus extra protein is at best just extra calories and at worst extra carbs. My minimum is 77 per the process in PP.
There is no similar custom tuned method for ideal fat intake that I have ever found, so I will back into it using arthimatic.
There are several reasonable guidelines for calories going around. Some use your current weight, some your lean mass, some your ideal weight. Think it over and pick one. I chose ideal weight in pounds times 10 to give daily calories. Since my ideal weight is 170-175 (also discovered from the process in PP), my ideal calorie intake is 1700-1750 and in practice my calorie intake bounces wildly in any one day but averaged across a week stays stable at 1800.
So let's do the arithmatic:
1800 minus 50 grams of carb, 200 calories, is 1600 remaining. 1600 minus 77 grams of protein, 308 calories, is 1292 remaining. 1292 calories from fat, divided by 9 per gram, is 143.5 grams of fat daily.
That's the very best I can do to show you how to figure out your ideal fat intake. Being on the core Atkins plan finding your CCLL by spending a week out of ketosis to find your ideal carb intake below which stalls are more common, book number 1. Following the strength of the Eades plan to find your protein minimum and ideal weight, book number 2. Finding a good guide to calories to improve on the rough guideline I suggested above, book number 3. No book gives ideal fat level so do the arithmatic above, still a total of 3 books. To arrive at the ideal it should come as no surprise that figuring out the ideal should take more than one book. Homework time, or put guesses in some of the parts like I did to get an answer that is close to the ideal.
... Or just follow the guidelines of your selected plan and it will work just fine. Popular plans work; that's why they are popular. But for the *ideal* you need to use the stength of each and go to other plans at the weak points.
Some comments on this:
It runs against intuition that more fat should result in more loss, but it's true no matter that it is not obvious. This is why low fat plans average less loss than low carb plans. There is real biochemistry behind why more fat yields more loss just like there is real biochemistry behind why more carbs yields more loss. Withdrawing fat from storage requires the hormone glucagon in the blood. Eating carbs over your CCLL directlly causes insulin to dominate and suppress glucagon on the one hand, and eating dietary fat triggers a cascade of hormones that indirectly results in higher glucagon on the other hand. Reducing fat triggers starvation mode, reduced glucagon, and less fat withdrawn from storage. The rule that eating more fat results in more loss is a metabolic loophole that takes advantage of an evolutionairy mechanism that defends against famines.
Of course it is possible to overwhelm this more-fat-eaten-more-fat-lost trend with a vast overdose of fat, but following the guidelines above will put you nowhere near that huge fat intake level.
My 77 and 143 levels are a bit much to maintain. In practice I run my protein level at least 100 and for the same total calories that reduces my fat level. But then I'm in maintenance so numbers for optimal loss aren't important for me any more. For the same total calories, more fat and less protein gives better loss; for maintenance for the same total calories, more protein less fat is easier to eat.
Frank - 21 Jan 2004 21:57 GMT >>Frank wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >>1292 calories from fat, divided by 9 per gram, is 143.5 grams of fat >>daily. Thanks for your reply. I started increasing my fat consumption today (Dr Udo's oil) and wow! What a lot of energy all of a sudden! I found myself down at the gym again doing a second 30mins of cardio! I burned off 165 calories about an hour after taking two tablespoons of oil.
IIRC, dietary fat works something like a slow-release energy source, doesn;t it? So I would hazard a guess that it's probably best to consume most of one's daily dose of it fiorst thing in the morning. Have any of the experts recommended this?
Just one thing... isn't a lot of dietary fat or oil supposed to be bad for the liver?
Frank
DJ Delorie - 21 Jan 2004 22:13 GMT > I burned off 165 calories about an hour after taking two tablespoons > of oil. 2 tablespoons of vegetable oil is about 250 calories, though ;-)
> IIRC, dietary fat works something like a slow-release energy source, > doesn;t it? So I would hazard a guess that it's probably best to > consume most of one's daily dose of it fiorst thing in the morning. > Have any of the experts recommended this? It does, but it's still best to spread your calories evenly throughout the day. I lose the most when I spread them out to 5 mini-meals.
> Just one thing... isn't a lot of dietary fat or oil supposed to be bad > for the liver? I haven't heard that rumor before, nor can I imagine why it would be true.
Frank - 22 Jan 2004 10:08 GMT >>Frank32@nospam.net (Frank) writes: >>> I burned off 165 calories about an hour after taking two tablespoons >>> of oil. >> >>2 tablespoons of vegetable oil is about 250 calories, though ;-) ;-) True enough - but presumaby some of the cals I burned off would have been body fat, yes?
>>but it's still best to spread your calories evenly throughout >>the day. I lose the most when I spread them out to 5 mini-meals. Thanks for the tip. That's already my policy actually. I think it also helps shrink the stomach, whci is good for me since most of my fat is around the gut.
>>I haven't heard that rumor before, nor can I imagine why it would be >>true. Maybe it isn't; I only heard ot from a non-expert.
Frank
DJ Delorie - 22 Jan 2004 15:29 GMT > >>2 tablespoons of vegetable oil is about 250 calories, though ;-) > > ;-) True enough - but presumaby some of the cals I burned off would > have been body fat, yes? You cannot assume that. Dietary fat and stored fat are treated exactly the same once they're in the bloodstream. Plus, excess dietary fat can be stored in fat cells quite easily.
DJ Delorie - 22 Jan 2004 15:31 GMT > ;-) True enough - but presumaby some of the cals I burned off would > have been body fat, yes? One other thing: Some forms of exercise (i.e. higher intensity) cause you to continue burning calories after you stop exercising. If this happens to you, you might eventually burn off the oil. Also, for some folks, exercise may be a more effective way of boosting your metabolism in general than just dieting (dieting may cause metabolic slowdown, whereas getting the same caloric deficit from exercise may not).
Doug Freyburger - 22 Jan 2004 18:20 GMT > > So let's do the arithmatic: > > IIRC, dietary fat works something like a slow-release energy source, > doesn;t it? Which is one way to say it increases BMR/RMR. And increasing them burns more calories for the same input calories, and thus increases loss rate. Good stuff.
> So I would hazard a guess that it's probably best to > consume most of one's daily dose of it fiorst thing in the morning. Most advice I've read is to spread out food across the day. This goes against the standard advice.
> Have any of the experts recommended this? None that I've encountered. There are few experts on amounts of fat at all that I've ever found and that's why I had to work the numbers the way I did. I found experts on carbs, protein and total calories but not fat. That's why I had to back into fat amounts by doing the arithmatic. The fat experts I've read have been expert at *types* of fat to eat, not amounts.
> Just one thing... isn't a lot of dietary fat or oil supposed to > be bad for the liver? Maybe among high carbers, but I've never heard about low carbers with the issue. The liver is the organ that converts one type of fatty acid to another as far as I know, so it do work.
But should the sort of numbers I've suggested even *count* as high? I do not discuss just randomly increasing fat intake willy-nilly. I discuss maintaining a steady total calorie intake, and running both carbs and protein towards minimum. That's a higher fat percentage, but since it isn't a high total calories calling it high fat is a bit hooky.
Doug Freyburger - 21 Jan 2004 00:14 GMT > Can someone clarify: I'm on a ketogenic diet to burn fat fast. Am I > right in thinking that the darker my keto-sticks read, the more fat > I'm burning? And am I right in thinking that if I minimise my dietary > fat intake, then my body will be forced to burn more body fat? Not really. There is *very* little correlation between how dark the tests are and how much fat you're burning after the end of Induction. During Induction the tests are naturally darker, after Induction the tests are naturally lighter. That's the pattern across time and all it means is the number of days has increased.
But there's a point that new folks generally miss: Folks trying to make the sticks darker typically do so by decreasing their carbs further and further towards zero because doing that makes intuitive sense. And they uniformly fail miserably in the attempt because that's not how it works.
The sticks are very much like a pregnancy test. There's little benefit in being MORE pregnant when you already are.
If you really, seriously want to turn the sticks darker, in spite of the fact that it has very little correlation with your loss rate, eat more fat to do it. If you eat so much fat that it forces new fat into storage against the hormonal balance, the sticks will turn very dark.
DigitalVinyl - 21 Jan 2004 03:13 GMT >Can someone clarify: I'm on a ketogenic diet to burn fat fast. Am I >right in thinking that the darker my keto-sticks read, the more fat >I'm burning? I think it means the more ketones that are presented (wasted) in your urine. Ketones are what adipose (fat) tissue get converted to durign ketosis. The stix means you have excess ketones that arent' being used by the body and are wasted. However that doesn't have a realtion to how much was burned in the body.
>And am I right in thinking that if I minimise my dietary >fat intake, then my body will be forced to burn more body fat? This is the exact opposite of what Atkins says in his book. He states that the ratio of fat grams divided by carb grams should be high. The higher the number the better ketosis is induced. TO cut fat means you are attempting some kind of low-carb, low-fat diet, which isn't atkins.
FAT does not make you FAT.
I'd suggest reading one of his books.
>Also: any tips on exercise while on this diet? What type of exercise >burns the most fat? I'm a fit male aged 50. I'm currently doing 30 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Frank DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
RRzVRR - 22 Jan 2004 11:22 GMT > Ketones are what adipose (fat) tissue get converted to durign > ketosis. The stix means you have excess ketones that arent' being used > by the body and are wasted. However that doesn't have a realtion to > how much was burned in the body. Just to make this clearer. Ketones are the waste byproduct of FFA use for fuel, and that fat can be from either stored FFA in your body or from incoming dietary fat.
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