Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004
Not convinced?
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Adam Swire - 21 Jan 2004 22:57 GMT http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm
From my personal experiace I have lost my appetite but I am still consuming 2500 to 3000 calories a day (if FitDay is to be believed) and so far I have lost 52Lbs. I am eating food that physically weighs less and takes up less room on the plate but as it is higher in fat it is higher in calories.
At the end of the day, who cares if it works!
A
Kevin Gowen - 22 Jan 2004 00:46 GMT > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > A People care if it works so they can know whether or not they are wasting their time. HTH
Ta ta, K
Cubit - 22 Jan 2004 03:09 GMT > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Ta ta, > K You obviously did not read anything but the final line and thus misinterpreted it. He was not saying who cares if the diet works or not. He was saying who cares if the Fitday calories are too high, if the diet works anyway.
Kevin Gowen is too focused on being a troll.
placidbull - 22 Jan 2004 11:27 GMT I wish thinking logically would be a requirement for this newsgroup ... but then where would the fun be?
It is not a question of how many calories you consume, it is a question of how many calories you burn in excess of how many calories you consume. That is where the weight loss comes from. I don't want to offend anyone but that seems rather obvious to me.
Thus if someone weights 340 pounds, they are going to burn 3,900 calories a day on a sedentary life style. If they eat 3,000 calories a day then they will still lose 3,900 - 3000 = 900 x 7 = 6,300 / 3500 = 1.8 pounds a week.
I suspect that I am in a minority here, but the bottom line is the number of calories burned in excess of the number of calories consumed. That's it! That's the magic formula! Period. End of story.
So why does Dr. Atkin's approach work? Because things with fat taste good. Because fat and protein are natural hunger suppressants. Because if things taste good and supress your hunger you will continue to eat those things, continue to have your hunger satisfied, and continue to lose weight because you will be eating less calories then you burn.
Make sense?
But what about carbs. Carbs are addictive. Carbs make you hungry. Carbs make you want more carbs. You end up eating more calories then you burn, therefore you gradually gain a half a pound or so a week and when a year passes .... wala ... you are 25 pounds heavier.
I say two things. I say the Dr. Atkin's diet is right because it works and I say that the bottom line is that the number of calories you consume must be less then the number of calories you burn if you are to experience weight loss.
Just my LOGICAL opinon of course. I feel much better now that I've gotten that off my chest.
Take Care,
Placid
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm > > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Kevin Gowen is too focused on being a troll. lbudney@pobox.com - 22 Jan 2004 11:43 GMT > It is not a question of how many calories you consume, it is a > question of how many calories you burn in excess of how many > calories you consume. That is where the weight loss comes from. I > don't want to offend anyone but that seems rather obvious to me. Why should it offend someone that you consider a particular simplistic opinion to be serlf-obvious? It's none of our business what you decide to consider obvious.
> Thus if someone weights 340 pounds, they are going to burn 3,900 calories a > day on a sedentary life style. If they eat 3,000 calories a day then they > will still lose 3,900 - 3000 = 900 x 7 = 6,300 / 3500 = 1.8 pounds a week. It's lovely mathematics, except that weight due to fat doesn't add much to the caloric budget, so your figure of 3,900 calories is a serious overestimate. And, of course, any estimate of calories burned by the body is a gross approximation, and doesn't include accounting for differences in wastage for various metabolic pathways...
But as a first order appoximation, your model is an excellent choice: particularly because it is comprehensible to any reasonably bright sixth grader. And it leads to such delightful suggestions as cutting out 5 calories per day, and losing a guaranteed 1/2 lb/year!
> I suspect that I am in a minority here, but the bottom line is the > number of calories burned in excess of the number of calories > consumed. That's it! That's the magic formula! Period. End of > story. There's nothing like confidence in a simplistic model! It makes the world so simple when we define the limits of the universe to be equal to the limits of our own understanding.
The first problem with your model, however, is that you are apparently assuming that the human metabolism is a 100% efficient energy converter. That certainly simplifies the calculations, but if one studies anything about thermodynamics, the assumption becomes suspect...
> Just my LOGICAL opinon of course. I feel much better now that I've > gotten that off my chest. Most people misuse the word "logical" in the same way that you are here, to mean "whatever I consider sensible". What one considers sensible, of course, is limited by one's knowledge and experience. To somebody who knows a little thermodynamics, not to mention the limits of these estimates, it would be crazy to suggest a reduction of 2.5 cal/day in order to lose .25 lb/year...
Regards, Len.
placidbull - 22 Jan 2004 12:26 GMT thank you for your opinion len ... makes absolutely no sense and cannot be substanitated in any way ... but thanks all the same ... gives me a superiority complex just reading it.
best regards,
placid
> > It is not a question of how many calories you consume, it is a > > question of how many calories you burn in excess of how many [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > Regards, > Len. lbudney@pobox.com - 22 Jan 2004 14:53 GMT > thank you for your opinion len ... makes absolutely no sense and > cannot be substanitated in any way ... but thanks all the same > ... gives me a superiority complex just reading it. Always happy to feed the arrogance of the ignorant. If you're interested in understanding it, let me spell it out.
1) Your estimate of the calorie budget of a 340-lb person is wildly wrong.
2) The best estimates are still inaccurate.
3) Supposing they were EXACTLY correct, you would still be missing part of the equation: energy conversion by thermodynamic systems are less than 100% efficient. Converting fat molecules to ATP, as one example, is not 100% efficient. Parts of the fat molecules' energy is wasted in the conversion process. No thermodynamic system converts energy without loss. The consequences of this are twofold.
First, the energy content of a pound of fat (as determined by burning it and measuring with a calorimeter) is not equal to the actual ATP energy produced from that fat. Therefore your conversion rate of 3,500 cal/lb is incorrect.
Second, the conversion of fat molecules to ATP, and the conversion of CHO molecules to ATP, are completely different chemical processes. It would be an astonishing coincidence of two utterly dissimilar energy conversion processes have EXACTLY the same efficiency. If their efficiency is not exactly equal, then one process wastes more energy than the other. The more wasteful process will "burn more calories" to make the same net energy available to the body.
To make your model accurate, one needs to know the actual efficiencies of the two processes. If the conversion wastage is accounted for, your equation must at least account for it thus:
the body's energy need = food/fat energy converted - conversion cost
The conversion cost term will depend on the composition of the food energy being converted--it will differ between fats, carbs and protein, and will also differ between simple sugars and complex carbohydrates.
> best regards, > placid Finally, note that this is a purely thermodynamic argument. This represents the ROCK BOTTOM analysis; any other terms missing from this equation can only be subtractive on the right-hand side.
For example, there may be biological reasons that fat mobilization and fat storage are mutually exclusive, which (if true) would mean that a person would be incapable of storing fat while in ketosis. If THAT were so, then a person could eat 5,000 cal/day without gaining weight, if the body remained in ketosis.
While that exact scenario does not agree with reality, lots of other factors may be involved. Your ignorance of human biology is likely to be as profound as your ignorance of thermodynamics, so I wait with pleasure for your rebuttal that it "doesn't make any sense to you".
Regards, Len.
Kevin Gowen - 22 Jan 2004 14:50 GMT > I wish thinking logically would be a requirement for this newsgroup You'd see membership plummet. These chubby housewives don't know correct reasoning from a can of paint.
Ta ta, K
PJx - 22 Jan 2004 14:51 GMT You need to read the science behind the Atkins diet.
You are wrong, wrong wrong.
And it makes you sound so stupid.
PJ
>I wish thinking logically would be a requirement for this newsgroup ... but >then where would the fun be? [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] >> >> Kevin Gowen is too focused on being a troll. Rich R - 22 Jan 2004 02:07 GMT > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > At the end of the day, who cares if it works! Well, at the end of day you will have a heart attack or bypass surgery. Then you might care. WATCH THE FAT!. Low carb is great, and you lose weight, but bad fats are bad fats at the end of the day. Exercise, you will live longer.
Rich
JC Der Koenig - 22 Jan 2004 03:54 GMT > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > you might care. WATCH THE FAT!. Low carb is great, and you lose weight, but > bad fats are bad fats at the end of the day. Exercise, you will live longer. Let's see some proof on the "bad" fats then.
kc - 22 Jan 2004 06:33 GMT > Let's see some proof on the "bad" fats then. you're joking, right?
-kelly
Lexin - 22 Jan 2004 11:56 GMT > > Let's see some proof on the "bad" fats then.
> you're joking, right? I don't think he is. From what I've read - starting with Gary Taubes article and moving on from there - the jury is still out on the 'bad' vs 'good' fats thing. The human system is far more complicated than government diet guidelines give the impression that it is.
-- Lexin (300/234/182) LC since 9 June 2003
JC Der Koenig - 22 Jan 2004 12:11 GMT > > Let's see some proof on the "bad" fats then. > > you're joking, right? > > -kelly No. As far as I've seen, fat is only "bad" when paired with carbs. If you have proof to the contrary, let's see it.
kc - 23 Jan 2004 05:45 GMT > No. As far as I've seen, fat is only "bad" when paired with carbs. If you > have proof to the contrary, let's see it. i've never heard this theory. do you have "proof" of it?
evidence of "bad fat" and heart disease follows:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4717056&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4704874&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4559109&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4520026&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2915326&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2737709&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2672941&dopt=Abstract
i can find more if you like, it's quite easy to find.
-kelly
kvs - 24 Jan 2004 22:49 GMT > > No. As far as I've seen, fat is only "bad" when paired with carbs. If you > > have proof to the contrary, let's see it. > > i've never heard this theory. do you have "proof" of it? > > evidence of "bad fat" and heart disease follows: It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4717056&dopt=Abstract This one says nothing about good and bad fats. Insulin resistance is not caused by natural fat consumption. Trans-fats likely play a role in the function of insulin receptors, but staturated fat consumption has nothing to do with blood glucose levels and the associated insulin response.
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4704874&dopt=Abstract Yet another kitchen sink correlation/assumption study. A suggestion is made to eliminate saturated fats at the same time as reducing the GI of carbohydrates consumed. So which is it? The fat or the starch?
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4559109&dopt=Abstract Not a single mention of trygliceride/VLDL effects of carbohydrates forgetting about the fact that trans-fats were being fed to the gerbils. The original studies "proving" that saturated fats were bad ignored the role of carbohydrates too. No one questions that you are better off with mono or poly-unsaturated fats given the same carbohydrate intake. The issue in this group is the role of carbohydrates themselves in the VLDL and LDL picture. Eliminating fat from your diet will do nothing to solve excessive blood VLDL levels and increase the HDL to LDL ratio. But reducing high GI carbohydrates will lead to a dramatic improvement.
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 4520026&dopt=Abstract Says zero about goodness or badness of natural saturated fats in the diet.
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2915326&dopt=Abstract Another junk study that completely ignores the role of carbohydrates in the VLDL and LDL levels in the blood. Consumption of saturated fats raises both LDL and HDL levels. Consumption of starch increases LDL at the expense of HDL (the liver scavanges HDL proteins to construct LDL to transport all those tryglycerides formed from excess glucose).
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2737709&dopt=Abstract At least they point to the VLDL and LDL increase and HDL decrease in response to fat consumption decrease but neglect to highlight that it is the carbohydrates that are responsible. Sure saturated fat increases LDL but it increases HDL which they neglect to mention. And nobody is defending the poison called trans fats.
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2672941&dopt=Abstract Trans fats are bad for you, is that controversial?
kc - 25 Jan 2004 00:28 GMT And nobody is
> defending the > poison called trans fats. > Trans fats are bad for you, is that controversial? actually, the person i was responding too stated that there are no bad fats. i was trying to show that his position was untrue, transfats are bad.
you seem to be stating both.
so which is it? are trans fats bad? and if so, how can there be no bad fats?
seriously, some of you need to lay off the kool-aid.
-kelly
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