Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsGeneral TopicsLow CarbWeightWatchers
WeightAdviser.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Not convinced?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Adam Swire - 21 Jan 2004 22:57 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm

From my personal experiace I have lost my appetite but I am still consuming
2500 to 3000 calories a day (if FitDay is to be believed) and so far I have
lost 52Lbs. I am eating food that physically weighs less and takes up less
room on the plate but as it is higher in fat it is higher in calories.

At the end of the day, who cares if it works!

A
Kevin Gowen - 22 Jan 2004 00:46 GMT
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> A

People care if it works so they can know whether or not they are wasting
their time. HTH

Ta ta,
K
Cubit - 22 Jan 2004 03:09 GMT
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Ta ta,
> K

You obviously did not read anything but the final line and thus
misinterpreted it.  He was not saying who cares if the diet works or not.
He was saying who cares if the Fitday calories are too high, if the diet
works anyway.

Kevin Gowen is too focused on being a troll.
placidbull - 22 Jan 2004 11:27 GMT
I wish thinking logically would be a requirement for this newsgroup ... but
then where would the fun be?

It is not a question of how many calories you consume, it is a question of
how many calories you burn in excess of how many calories you consume. That
is where the weight loss comes from. I don't want to offend anyone but that
seems rather obvious to me.

Thus if someone weights 340 pounds, they are going to burn 3,900 calories a
day on a sedentary life style. If they eat 3,000 calories a day then they
will still lose 3,900 - 3000 = 900 x 7 = 6,300 / 3500 = 1.8 pounds a week.

I suspect that I am in a minority here, but the bottom line is the number of
calories burned in excess of the number of calories consumed. That's it!
That's the magic formula! Period. End of story.

So why does Dr. Atkin's approach work? Because things with fat taste good.
Because fat and protein are natural hunger suppressants. Because if things
taste good and supress your hunger you will continue to eat those things,
continue to have your hunger satisfied, and continue to lose weight because
you will be eating less calories then you burn.

Make sense?

But what about carbs. Carbs are addictive. Carbs make you hungry. Carbs make
you want more carbs. You end up eating more calories then you burn,
therefore you gradually gain a half a pound or so a week and when a year
passes .... wala ... you are 25 pounds heavier.

I say two things. I say the Dr. Atkin's diet is right because it works and I
say that the bottom line is that the number of calories you consume must be
less then the number of calories you burn if you are to experience weight
loss.

Just my LOGICAL opinon of course. I feel much better now that I've gotten
that off my chest.

Take Care,

Placid

> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Kevin Gowen is too focused on being a troll.
lbudney@pobox.com - 22 Jan 2004 11:43 GMT
> It is not a question of how many calories you consume, it is a
> question of how many calories you burn in excess of how many
> calories you consume. That is where the weight loss comes from. I
> don't want to offend anyone but that seems rather obvious to me.

Why should it offend someone that you consider a particular simplistic
opinion to be serlf-obvious? It's none of our business what you decide
to consider obvious.

> Thus if someone weights 340 pounds, they are going to burn 3,900 calories a
> day on a sedentary life style. If they eat 3,000 calories a day then they
> will still lose 3,900 - 3000 = 900 x 7 = 6,300 / 3500 = 1.8 pounds a week.

It's lovely mathematics, except that weight due to fat doesn't add
much to the caloric budget, so your figure of 3,900 calories is a
serious overestimate. And, of course, any estimate of calories burned
by the body is a gross approximation, and doesn't include accounting
for differences in wastage for various metabolic pathways...

But as a first order appoximation, your model is an excellent choice:
particularly because it is comprehensible to any reasonably bright
sixth grader. And it leads to such delightful suggestions as cutting
out 5 calories per day, and losing a guaranteed 1/2 lb/year!

> I suspect that I am in a minority here, but the bottom line is the
> number of calories burned in excess of the number of calories
> consumed. That's it!  That's the magic formula! Period. End of
> story.

There's nothing like confidence in a simplistic model! It makes the
world so simple when we define the limits of the universe to be equal
to the limits of our own understanding.

The first problem with your model, however, is that you are apparently
assuming that the human metabolism is a 100% efficient energy
converter. That certainly simplifies the calculations, but if one
studies anything about thermodynamics, the assumption becomes
suspect...

> Just my LOGICAL opinon of course. I feel much better now that I've
> gotten that off my chest.

Most people misuse the word "logical" in the same way that you are
here, to mean "whatever I consider sensible". What one considers
sensible, of course, is limited by one's knowledge and experience.  To
somebody who knows a little thermodynamics, not to mention the limits
of these estimates, it would be crazy to suggest a reduction of 2.5
cal/day in order to lose .25 lb/year...

Regards,
Len.
placidbull - 22 Jan 2004 12:26 GMT
thank you for your opinion len ... makes absolutely no sense and cannot be
substanitated in any way ... but thanks all the same ... gives me a
superiority complex just reading it.

best regards,

placid

> > It is not a question of how many calories you consume, it is a
> > question of how many calories you burn in excess of how many
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> Regards,
> Len.
lbudney@pobox.com - 22 Jan 2004 14:53 GMT
> thank you for your opinion len ... makes absolutely no sense and
> cannot be substanitated in any way ... but thanks all the same
> ... gives me a superiority complex just reading it.

Always happy to feed the arrogance of the ignorant. If you're
interested in understanding it, let me spell it out.

1) Your estimate of the calorie budget of a 340-lb person is wildly
wrong.

2) The best estimates are still inaccurate.

3) Supposing they were EXACTLY correct, you would still be missing
part of the equation: energy conversion by thermodynamic systems are
less than 100% efficient. Converting fat molecules to ATP, as one
example, is not 100% efficient. Parts of the fat molecules' energy is
wasted in the conversion process. No thermodynamic system converts
energy without loss. The consequences of this are twofold.

First, the energy content of a pound of fat (as determined by burning
it and measuring with a calorimeter) is not equal to the actual ATP
energy produced from that fat. Therefore your conversion rate of 3,500
cal/lb is incorrect.

Second, the conversion of fat molecules to ATP, and the conversion of
CHO molecules to ATP, are completely different chemical processes. It
would be an astonishing coincidence of two utterly dissimilar energy
conversion processes have EXACTLY the same efficiency. If their
efficiency is not exactly equal, then one process wastes more energy
than the other. The more wasteful process will "burn more calories" to
make the same net energy available to the body.

To make your model accurate, one needs to know the actual efficiencies
of the two processes. If the conversion wastage is accounted for, your
equation must at least account for it thus:

the body's energy need = food/fat energy converted - conversion cost

The conversion cost term will depend on the composition of the food
energy being converted--it will differ between fats, carbs and protein,
and will also differ between simple sugars and complex carbohydrates.

> best regards,
> placid

Finally, note that this is a purely thermodynamic argument. This
represents the ROCK BOTTOM analysis; any other terms missing from this
equation can only be subtractive on the right-hand side.

For example, there may be biological reasons that fat mobilization and
fat storage are mutually exclusive, which (if true) would mean that a
person would be incapable of storing fat while in ketosis. If THAT
were so, then a person could eat 5,000 cal/day without gaining weight,
if the body remained in ketosis.

While that exact scenario does not agree with reality, lots of other
factors may be involved. Your ignorance of human biology is likely to
be as profound as your ignorance of thermodynamics, so I wait with
pleasure for your rebuttal that it "doesn't make any sense to you".

Regards,
Len.
Kevin Gowen - 22 Jan 2004 14:50 GMT
> I wish thinking logically would be a requirement for this newsgroup

You'd see membership plummet. These chubby housewives don't know correct
reasoning from a can of paint.

Ta ta,
K
PJx - 22 Jan 2004 14:51 GMT
You need to read the science behind the Atkins diet.

You are wrong, wrong wrong.

And it makes you sound so stupid.

PJ

>I wish thinking logically would be a requirement for this newsgroup ... but
>then where would the fun be?
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>>
>> Kevin Gowen is too focused on being a troll.
Rich R - 22 Jan 2004 02:07 GMT
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> At the end of the day, who cares if it works!

Well, at the end of day you will have a heart attack or bypass surgery. Then
you might care. WATCH THE FAT!. Low carb is great, and you lose weight, but
bad fats are bad fats at the end of the day. Exercise, you will live longer.

Rich
JC Der Koenig - 22 Jan 2004 03:54 GMT
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> you might care. WATCH THE FAT!. Low carb is great, and you lose weight, but
> bad fats are bad fats at the end of the day. Exercise, you will live longer.

Let's see some proof on the "bad" fats then.
kc - 22 Jan 2004 06:33 GMT
> Let's see some proof on the "bad" fats then.

you're joking, right?

-kelly
Lexin - 22 Jan 2004 11:56 GMT
> > Let's see some proof on the "bad" fats then.

> you're joking, right?

I don't think he is.  From what I've read - starting with Gary Taubes
article and moving on from there - the jury is still out on the 'bad'
vs 'good' fats thing.  The human system is far more complicated than
government diet guidelines give the impression that it is.

--
Lexin
(300/234/182)
LC since 9 June 2003
JC Der Koenig - 22 Jan 2004 12:11 GMT
> > Let's see some proof on the "bad" fats then.
>
> you're joking, right?
>
> -kelly

No. As far as I've seen, fat is only "bad" when paired with carbs. If you
have proof to the contrary, let's see it.
kc - 23 Jan 2004 05:45 GMT
> No. As far as I've seen, fat is only "bad" when paired with carbs. If you
> have proof to the contrary, let's see it.

i've never heard this theory.  do you have "proof" of it?

evidence of "bad fat" and heart disease follows:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4717056&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4704874&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4559109&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4520026&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2915326&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2737709&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2672941&dopt=Abstract


i can find more if you like, it's quite easy to find.

-kelly
kvs - 24 Jan 2004 22:49 GMT
> > No. As far as I've seen, fat is only "bad" when paired with carbs. If you
> > have proof to the contrary, let's see it.
>
> i've never heard this theory.  do you have "proof" of it?
>
> evidence of "bad fat" and heart disease follows:

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4717056&dopt=Abstract

This one says nothing about good and bad fats.  Insulin resistance is
not
caused by natural fat consumption.  Trans-fats likely play a role in
the
function of insulin receptors, but staturated fat consumption has
nothing
to do with blood glucose levels and the associated insulin response.

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4704874&dopt=Abstract

Yet another kitchen sink correlation/assumption study.  A suggestion
is made
to eliminate saturated fats at the same time as reducing the GI of
carbohydrates
consumed.  So which is it?  The fat or the starch?

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4559109&dopt=Abstract

Not a single mention of trygliceride/VLDL effects of carbohydrates
forgetting
about the fact that trans-fats were being fed to the gerbils.  The
original
studies "proving" that saturated fats were bad ignored the role of
carbohydrates
too.  No one questions that you are better off with mono or
poly-unsaturated
fats given the same carbohydrate intake.   The issue in this group is
the role
of carbohydrates themselves in the VLDL and LDL picture.  Eliminating
fat from
your diet will do nothing to solve excessive blood VLDL levels and
increase
the HDL to LDL ratio.  But reducing high GI carbohydrates will lead to
a
dramatic improvement.

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4520026&dopt=Abstract

Says zero about goodness or badness of natural saturated fats in the
diet.

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2915326&dopt=Abstract

Another junk study that completely ignores the role of carbohydrates
in the
VLDL and LDL levels in the blood.   Consumption of saturated fats
raises both
LDL and HDL levels.  Consumption of starch increases LDL at the
expense of
HDL (the liver scavanges HDL proteins to construct LDL to transport
all those
tryglycerides formed from excess glucose).

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2737709&dopt=Abstract

At least they point to the VLDL and LDL increase and HDL decrease in
response
to fat consumption decrease but neglect to highlight that it is the
carbohydrates  that are responsible.   Sure saturated fat increases
LDL but
it increases HDL which they neglect to mention.  And nobody is
defending the
poison called trans fats.

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
2672941&dopt=Abstract

Trans fats are bad for you, is that controversial?
kc - 25 Jan 2004 00:28 GMT
 And nobody is
> defending the
> poison called trans fats.
> Trans fats are bad for you, is that controversial?

actually, the person i was responding too stated that there are no bad fats.
i was trying to show that his position was untrue, transfats are bad.

you seem to be stating both.

so which is it?  are trans fats bad?  and if so, how can there be no bad
fats?

seriously, some of you need to lay off the kool-aid.

-kelly
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.