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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004Twin Study of Atkins: It's The Calories!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm If further research bears out this result, it would reinforce my belief that adding a bunch of "low carb" snack foods back into your diet will completely nullify any weight loss advantage that low carb dieting might provide because it would reintroduce the extra calories that traditional low carbing eliminated. The diet (and snack foods) would still be very helpful for controlling abnormal blood sugars. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >The diet (and snack foods) would still be very helpful for controlling >abnormal blood sugars. It was never about the carbs, it has always been about the cals. Eliminating cals means eliminating love for food. Eliminating the love is only accomplished, for a lifetime, by proving to yourself and your body that the amounts of food you need are much less than you have been lead to believe. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000620.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. :: On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 09:41:43 -0500, "Jenny" :: <lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] :: and your body that the amounts of food you need are much less than :: you have been lead to believe. One doesn't need to elimnate "love for food" to control weight. One simply need to eliminate eating too much food. There is a real difference. > :: On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 09:41:43 -0500, "Jenny" > :: <lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > One doesn't need to elimnate "love for food" to control weight. One simply > need to eliminate eating too much food. There is a real difference. Portion control? Wow! Now there's a concept! ;-)  Signaturejmk in NC > > :: On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 09:41:43 -0500, "Jenny" > > :: <lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > -- > jmk in NC Yeah, more people realize portion control, the healthier and leaner they will remain. Simply isn't a "diet" to lose the weight...must learn how to eat right to keep it off. Practically any "diet" will work, just need to learn proper portions and exercise. Myway >>>:: On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 09:41:43 -0500, "Jenny" >>>:: <lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > to eat right to keep it off. Practically any "diet" will work, just need > to learn proper portions and exercise. Right, you can still love food -- just love it in reasonble sized portions. And yes, eating right is important if you goal is to be healthier (as opposed to only weight loss). Some people are a lot more focused on the weight loss aspects while others are more focused on a healthier WOE and lifestyle. Signaturejmk in NC >One doesn't need to elimnate "love for food" to control weight. One simply >need to eliminate eating too much food. There is a real difference. The majority of obese people, when I mention they need to eat 2 pounds per day, look at me like I stole their favorite kitty. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000620.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. > It was never about the carbs, it has always been about the cals. Isn't Largest M_outh always talking about 2POundPOWDiet rather than calories? Is he about to change his mind and tell everyone that they misunderstood him? > Eliminating cals means eliminating love for food. What a perfectly shitheaded thing to say. But then what else would come from Largest M_a.shole? I love his "consistency." He says we should eliminate *weight* of food and now it's calories. What a lightweight. And somehow, calories have something to do with love of food. Deep thinking, as usual. Bob :: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm :: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: dieting might provide because it would reintroduce the extra :: calories that traditional low carbing eliminated. You need further research for this conclusion? :: The diet (and snack foods) would still be very helpful for :: controlling abnormal blood sugars. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] :: Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? :: Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm Roger, What I'd like to see more research on is the finding of the one twin study that Atkins dieters burn the identical amount of calories during weight loss as people on other diets who lose the same amount of weight. This is logical, but given the superstitious belief in the "Atkins Advantage" which Atkins himself promoted, it will take more than one study to lay this myth to rest. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > :: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm > :: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > :: Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? > :: Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm :: Roger, :: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :: Advantage" which Atkins himself promoted, it will take more than one :: study to lay this myth to rest. Really? As much as I've wanted to believe that, my body tells me over and over that it's not true. I don't need research to tell me what's true in this regard. However, there have been studies which report that LCers can consume more calories than non-LCers and lose as much or more weight. But my body doesn't follow that rule, afaik. Roger, There's only one study I can think of that shows Atkins dieters losing at higher calorie levels, and that's the Mount Sinai study with obese teenaged boys. It was a short study, however, and I suspect that it may not have controlled adequately for the water weight loss. The year long study that compared Atkins with Ornish etc showed less median weight loss for Atkins dieters than for Weight Watchers and Ornish, as well as a higher drop out level. However, it did show improved cardiovascular health risk markers. The one really important study that should be done, hasn't been done as far as I can tell: Comparing the diet result for people with rock solid blood sugar (Hba1c of 4.6%) and slightly abnormal blood sugar (hba1c over 5.5) and with diabetes (hba1c over 7.0% at start of diet) with the people on the other diets. That study would almost certainly show that people with normal blood sugar can lose on any regimen that controls calories and may, in fact, do more poorly on a high fat/low carb diet because of the tendency to eat too many calories, while people with abnormal blood sugar lose far more successfully on a diet that limits carbohydrates and boosts fat. Don't hold your breath waiting for that one. The Atkins Foundation isn't going to fund it any time soon. <g> -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > Roger, > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Don't hold your breath waiting for that one. The Atkins Foundation isn't > going to fund it any time soon. <g> Not only that, but this study was only two weeks long. That's two short to reach any conclusion. Try again after a month, then a month and two weeks. SignatureBob M in CT remove 'x.' to reply Jenny, do you still have the link to the article that compared Atkins to Weight watchers? That seems to contradict the recent one comparing a low carb diet to a reduced calories diet, where the low carbers ate 300 more cals a day and lost more weight. > Jenny, do you still have the link to the article that compared Atkins to Weight > watchers? That seems to contradict the recent one comparing a low carb diet to > a reduced calories diet, where the low carbers ate 300 more cals a day and lost > more weight. Here's a link to the Tufts study Jenny was referring to: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/464193 This was a one year study. Signaturejmk in NC Thanks. Gary >Jenny, do you still have the link to the article that compared Atkins to Weight >watchers? http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/14/1792?etoc http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. > >Jenny, do you still have the link to the article that compared Atkins to Weight > >watchers? > > http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/14/1792?etoc About this study: ******************** Weight Loss With Self-help Compared With a Structured Commercial Program A Randomized Trial Stanley Heshka, PhD; James W. Anderson, MD; Richard L. Atkinson, MD; Frank L. Greenway, MD; James O. Hill, PhD; Stephen D. Phinney, MD, PhD; Ronette L. Kolotkin, PhD; Karen Miller-Kovach, MS, RD; F. Xavier Pi-Sunyer, MD JAMA. 2003;289:1792-1798. ******************* About some of the Authors: James W. Anderson, University of Kentucky and the Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Lexington. Research on the cholesterol-lowering effects of psyllium funded by Procter & Gamble Company. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 2000;71:1433-8) Research on psyllium on glucose and serum lipid responses in men with type 2 diabetes and hypercholesterolemia, funded by Procter & Gamble Company. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 2000;70:466-73) Research on the difference in cognitive development between breast-fed and formula-fed children, funded by Martek Biosciences Corporation and HCF Nutrition Foundation. (AM. J. Clin. Nutr. 2000;70:525- 35) Research on using Orlistat for weight maintenance funded by F Hoffmann-La Roche. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1999;69:1108-16)Research on yogurt and cholesterol supported by Campina Melkunie. (J. Am. Col. of Nutr. 1999;18:43-9) Research on type 2 diabetes mellitus supported in part by Roche Vitamins. (J. Amer. Coll. Nutr. 1999;18:451-61) Richard Atkinson, M.D., Professor of medicine and nutritional sciences, University of Wisconsin. Director, Beers-Murphy Clinical Nutrition Center. Co-founder and president, American Obesity Association. Consultant to Best Foods (CPC International), Boots Pharmaceuticals, Cambridge Plan International, Eli Lilly, Gates Pharmaceuticals, Glaxo, Glaxo-Wellcome, Interneuron, Just Help Yourself, Knoll Pharmaceutical, Lederle, Pfizer, Ross Laboratories, Slim Fast, Thompson Medical, Wyeth-Ayerst. Industry- sponsored lecturer: Boots Pharmaceuticals, Hoffman-LaRoche, Interneuron, Knoll Pharmaceuticals, Ross Laboratories, Slim Fast, Wyeth Ayerst. Research Support: AH Robins, Cambridge Plan International, DuPont Pharmaceuticals, Eli Lilly, Gates Pharmaceuticals, Mead Johnson, Natural Nutrition, Thompson Medical, Weight Watchers Foundation, Natural Nutrition, LTD (Norway). (resumé). Scientific advisor, Dannon Institute, 1998 (Dannon Institute ad, J. Am. Diet. Assoc., 11/98) James O. Hill, Ph.D., Professor of Pediatrics and Director, Center for Human Nutrition at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver, CO. Research support from Amgen, Hoffman-LaRoche, Procter & Gamble, and Knoll Pharmaceuticals; has received consultant fees from Knoll, Roche Laboratories, International Life Sciences Institute, and Procter & Gamble and is a consultant to the Duke Diet and Fitness Center. (Newark Star-Ledger, 2/17/97). President, North American Association for the Study of Obesity. (USA Today, 9/1/98) Lead author of a study on olestra supported by a grant from Procter & Gamble. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1998;67:1178-85) Co-wrote (with Barbara Rolls) a 1998 report for ILSI on "Carbohydrates and Weight Management." Participated in a 3/25/99 panel assembled by the Sugar Association to inform New York magazine editors about obesity, calories, and activity. (Sugar Association's 1999 annual report, http://www.foodingredientsonline.com; accessed 03/30/99) Research on the effects of covert substitution of olestra for conventional fat on spontaneous food intake supported by Procter & Gamble. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1998;67:1178-85) Research on the role of carbohydrates in weight management was supported by the Sugar Association. (Letter from Sugar Association to USDA; on file with CSPI; 4/16/99) Research on using Orlistat for weight maintenance funded by Hoffmann-La Roche. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1999;69:1108-16) Member of the Foodfit.com advisory board. (http://www.foodfit.com/about/advisoryBoard.asp; accessed 11/11/00) Research on weight management supported in part by Abbott Laboratories. (J. Amer. Coll. Nutr. 2001;20:26-31) Member of the McDonald's Corporation Global Advisory Council on Healthy Lifestyles; formed to "help guide the company on activities that address the need for balanced, healthy lifestyles." (http://www.mcdonalds.com/corporate/press/corporate/2003/05212003/; accessed 6/23/03) Receives consulting fees from HealtheTech, Johnson & Johnson, Procter & Gamble, and Coca-Cola. Receives speakers fees from Abbott Laboratories, Roche Laboratories, and Kraft Foods. Receives research funding from M&M Mars. (N. Engl. J. Med. 2003:348;2082-2090) Member of the expert advisory board for the American Council for Fitness and Nutrition. (http://www.acfn.org/about/advisory.html; accessed 10/31/03) Stephen D. Phinney, M.D., Ph.D., Division of Clinical Nutrition and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of California, Davis. Research on fatty acid composition in human subcutaneous adipose tissue supported in part by Scotia Pharmaceuticals. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1994;60:725-9) F. Xavier Pi-Sunyer, , M.D., St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center, Columbia University. Advisory boards of American Home Products' Wyeth-Ayerst labs and Knoll Pharmaceuticals; consultant to Lilly Pharmaceuticals, Genentech, Hoffman-LaRoche, Knoll, Weight-Watchers International, and Neurogen; on Knoll Pharmaceutical's Weight Risk Investigation Study Council (provides research grants). (Newark Star-Ledger, 2/17/97) Accepted grants or fees from Warner-Lambert on Rezulin, a diabetes drug. (Los Angeles Times, p. A22, 10/29/99)Research on the effects of folate and vitamins B-12 and B-6 on serum total homocysteine (tHcy) supported by Campbell Soup Company. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 2000;70:881-7) Study that compared meal plans and self-selected diet in relation to cardiovascular risk reduction supported by Campbell Soup Company. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1997;66:373-85) Study on the benefits of a prepared diet in relation to cardiovascular disease supported by Campbell Soup Company. (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1996;64:935-43) Important stuff to know. TC The diet where they compared Atkins, Ornish, Weight Watchers and Zone showed the Atkins people losing less weight than WW and having a higher drop out rate than WW. There was no comparison of food intake. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/464193?-1 The diet where they ate more and lost weight was the Mt. Sinai (NYC) study of obese teenaged boys. It was very short in duration. My link has expired, and the only links I could find to it summarized the findings without the details. Google "Mount Sinai Sondike low carbohydrate" to see references. --Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > Jenny, do you still have the link to the article that compared Atkins to Weight > watchers? That seems to contradict the recent one comparing a low carb diet to > a reduced calories diet, where the low carbers ate 300 more cals a day and lost > more weight. >lost weight was the Mt. Sinai (NYC) study >of obese teenaged boys. Wasn't that the Schneider Children's Hospital study? Susan Susan, Yes, it turns out it was. Every article I'd seen refering to it cited Dr. Sondike of Mount Sinai, but I see from the page below that Schneider Children's Hospital was the sponsor. http://www.northshorelij.com/pressx.cfm?PRE_id=481&PTOP_id=13 -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan | The diet where they compared Atkins, Ornish, Weight Watchers and Zone showed | the Atkins people losing less weight than WW and having a higher drop out | rate than WW. There was no comparison of food intake. | http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/464193?-1 There's a lot they're not saying about this study's control groups. For instance, what exactly were they taught about the diets they were on?) The article says that the same nutritionist taught all four diet): Quote: "The Weight Watchers group received only a Weight Watchers cookbook containing healthy recipes and basic information, as Weight Watchers does not publish diet books. The Ornish, Atkins, and Zone groups each received a complete self-help diet book for their assigned weight loss approach. Additionally, all study participants attended four group classes during the initial two-month study period. All classes were taught by the same doctor and dietitian.* How could the same doctor and dietician teach classes in both Atkins and Ornish, which are diametrically opposed - without prejudice? No mention of what they ate. Not only that, but there was no independent verification that they were indeed eating according to diet plan (they kept their own records). I find it very strange that in a group of obese men and women," the Atkins group would lose only 2.1% of their body fat in one year, as the article states. All of us who have been on the Atkins plan know that this is preposterous if the plan is adhered to as layed out by Atkins. For instance, in a 250 pound man, a 2.1% loss is only about 5.25 pounds! This is ridiculous! This is lost in the first two days of Atkins in water weight alone -- and those of us who strictly adhere to Atkins' plan can lose anywhere from 2 to 5+ pounds per week. This leaves a lot of doubts in my mind about the scientific control and validity of the study, since it just plain makes no sense. It does not correllate with the experience of thousands of Atkins dieters -- myself included. If a 250 pound person lost only 5.25 pounds in a year in the study, they were certainly not following the same Atkins plan that the rest of us follow. Peter Peter, If I recall correctly, the Atkins group in that study were given the book and no further support, which would mirror the experience of most dieters in the real world. The people in this newsgroup are not the norm. Most of the people I've met in real life who have "tried" the Atkins diet read the book, did induction, eat a bunch of Atkins bars, lost 2 lbs over a 3 week period, said "to heck with it" and now conclude that Atkins doesn't work for them. The people who show up here are people who are either a) information intensive computer folk or b) people who have dramatic responses during the first weeks of the diet. or c) very fat. The diet does not appear to work all that well for many people who only have 20 lbs to lose, total, to get to goal. It also doesn't work all that well for the 2/3 of the population who are NOT insulin resistant. Finally, as everyone here knows, for most people it takes a lot more than what you find in the book to fine tune the diet after the first couple weeks. My conclusion after observing a lot of dieters is that Atkins and the other very low carb diets work like magic for a subset of the population--mostly people who have definite blood sugar disorders, especially those with a huge amount of weight to lose, but that for others it isn't necessarily any better than a standard calorie counting diet or even <gasp> low fat. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > | The diet where they compared Atkins, Ornish, Weight Watchers and Zone > showed [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Peter > The people who show up here are people who are either a) information > intensive computer folk or b) people who have dramatic responses during the > first weeks of the diet. or c) very fat. You know, I never thought of that. I'm all three of those things. -- Lexin www.redrosepress.co.uk www.livejournal.com/~lexin LC since 9 June 2003 (300/232/182) ::: The people who show up here are people who are either a) information ::: intensive computer folk or b) people who have dramatic responses ::: during the first weeks of the diet. or c) very fat. :: :: You know, I never thought of that. I'm all three of those things. Then why does LC work for bodybuilders trying to attain very low levels of bodyfat? :: Peter, :: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] :: week period, said "to heck with it" and now conclude that Atkins :: doesn't work for them. I disagree. People here are the norm. You are only one person, Jenny. A datum of one just isn't good enough. You're entitled to your opinions, of course, but I disagree with the ones you're expressing here. :: The people who show up here are people who are either a) information :: intensive computer folk or b) people who have dramatic responses :: during the first weeks of the diet. or c) very fat. Items b and c pretty much define the norm. Also, these days anyone can own a computer, so what makes a person "information intensive computer folk" just because they show up in here? Please. :: The diet does not appear to work all that well for many people who :: only have 20 lbs to lose, total, to get to goal. Nonsense. Those people just have to be more dedicated....just as they would on any diet. :: It also doesn't :: work all that well for the 2/3 of the population who are NOT insulin :: resistant. Define "well". Bodybuilders are not, in general, insulin resistant....they wouldn't use LC to lose weight if it didn't work for them. Finally, as everyone here knows, for most people it :: takes a lot more than what you find in the book to fine tune the :: diet after the first couple weeks. I don't know about that either. It mostly takes paying attention. :: My conclusion after observing a lot of dieters is that Atkins and :: the other very low carb diets work like magic for a subset of the :: population--mostly people who have definite blood sugar disorders, :: especially those with a huge amount of weight to lose, Any diet works for those with a huge amount of weight to lose. I've been a T2 since I was 23....I lost 100 lbs on LF quicker than I did on LC....I like LC better simply because I don't eat as much. On LF I ate a lot, but I exercised like madman. I didn't have time to do that this time, so LC was just what the doctor ordered, so to speak. but that for :: others it isn't necessarily any better than a standard calorie :: counting diet or even <gasp> low fat. Well, I'd agree with you there...if one can find a way that restricts calories, then the pounds will usually come off. Roger, You must know a different group of folks than I do. My friends are educated women in their 40s and 50s. Typically they did not have weight problems until their 40s. They have about 20 -30 lbs to lose. They do not lose weight dramatically on Atkins and every one of them (and we're talking maybe 6 or 7) has given up on the diet after a month or two--mostly because they don't lose much weight. There are lots of reasons why they don't lose weight, but the biggest one seems to be that unlike most of us here who take the time to memorize carb counts and read the labels on everything we eat, they're too relaxed about carb counting and end up eating a lot more carbs than they think they're eating. They also fall for all the "low carb" foods and throw those on top of the steak, cheese, and stuff with more carbs than they realize. When I've tried to explain that they're really going to have to count the carbs which means learning what foods have how much carb, they get that "I can't do math" look. These are the same folks who find computers scary and would never log into a newsgroup or BBS. They're not dumb. They're just not practiced dieters like a lot of the folks here. From observing them and quite a few other people through my life, I've concluded that it is mostly those of us who have been battling weight all our lives who take the time to read the labels, do the counting, read the book, get the advice, and make things work. People with only 20 or 30 lbs to lose who don't have a history of dieting and only gain weight later in life don't seem to do all that well on any diet. And Atkins may be a worse diet for them because they end up eating all the fatty stuff and then bumping their carbs because they don't know the values of the foods they're eating. As far as the body builders go, the few I know don't do Atkins, but follow extremely complicated arcane formulas their trainers give them that are insanely structured and rigid--and which can verge on anorexia at times. --Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > :: Peter, > :: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > Well, I'd agree with you there...if one can find a way that restricts > calories, then the pounds will usually come off. Arcane? I don't think so. SignatureJC Eat less, exercise more. -- > Roger, > [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > Well, I'd agree with you there...if one can find a way that restricts > > calories, then the pounds will usually come off. > Roger, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > eating. They also fall for all the "low carb" foods and throw those on top > of the steak, cheese, and stuff with more carbs than they realize. [snipped so people don't complain] Jenny, maybe some of this is because those of us who have dieted (yes, dieted) in the past have come to realize that dieting is not the way to achieve permanent results. Those who are just beginning to experience weight problems have yet to discover that you have to make this a WOE--not just a short-term fix. I know I have dieted in the past, with the obvious results--putting the weight back on. SignatureJean B. :: Roger, :: :: You must know a different group of folks than I do. Well, Jenny, that is for sure! :) I have plenty of friends who fail at LC and dieting in general. Just last night I was at a dinner party with two of the profs I work with. Both of them are overweight and were so over two years ago when I started LCing. In fact, one of these guys brought LCing to my attention -- and I used to argue the merits of it with him (I was anti-LC then -- turned to the LF side of the force). Now, over two years later both of them are fatter than ever and I'm not (their wives were raving about my loss -- nice ladies for sure -- but I don't see them much). And the sad thing is -- I told them everything I was doing and tried to include them in on it. One listened but couldn't make it work (you can guess which he was) -- the other was too afraid to eat fat - sigh. My friends are :: educated women in their 40s and 50s. Typically they did not have :: weight problems until their 40s. They have about 20 -30 lbs to lose. :: They do not lose weight dramatically on Atkins and every one of them :: (and we're talking maybe 6 or 7) has given up on the diet after a :: month or two--mostly because they don't lose much weight. Nothing new here, Jenny. Many people give up on diets. Dieting is hard work! In our society, fatness is almost the norm. Lot of people, imo, with only 20 to 30 lbs to lose don't see it as a big deal. Hence, the results you're seeing. :: There are lots of reasons why they don't lose weight, but the :: biggest one seems to be that unlike most of us here who take the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: the "low carb" foods and throw those on top of the steak, cheese, :: and stuff with more carbs than they realize. Well, they aren't paying attention so they don't get results. I don't have to tell you that there is no magic about LC (except the appetite supression -- which is a miracle, imo). :: When I've tried to explain that they're really going to have to :: count the carbs which means learning what foods have how much carb, :: they get that "I can't do math" look. These are the same folks who :: find computers scary and would never log into a newsgroup or BBS. :: They're not dumb. They're just not practiced dieters like a lot of :: the folks here. Just as you said: they're not dumb. They just aren't motivated. This isn't the fault of LC. Their weight loss will be slow and they won't take the time to let it work. Hence: their results. :: From observing them and quite a few other people through my life, :: I've concluded that it is mostly those of us :: who have been battling weight all our lives who take the time to :: read the labels, do the counting, read the book, get the advice, and :: make things work. I won't disagree with that, Jenny. There is no magic pill. That includes LC or LF, or the 2PD. :: People with only 20 or 30 lbs to lose who don't have a history of :: dieting and only gain weight later in life don't seem to do all that :: well on any diet. And Atkins may be a worse diet for them because :: they end up eating all the fatty stuff and then bumping their carbs :: because they don't know the values of the foods they're eating. Yes, if they don't control the carbs but take in the fat, it is not good. However, if you compare that to the standard american diet, there is improvement. It will depend on their eating habits before going LC. For example, if they switched from LF to LC and didn't do LC right, that may be really problematic. However, if they are insulin resistant then likely their see results on LC while not on LF (unless they exercise a whole lot!). :: As far as the body builders go, the few I know don't do Atkins, but :: follow extremely complicated arcane formulas their trainers give :: them that are insanely structured and rigid--and which can verge on :: anorexia at times. None of them do *Atkins*, afaik (heck, I don't do Atkins). But they use LC along with CKD/TKD type stuff when in their cutting phases. And yes, it is very structured and rigid -- which is why they get results. The bottom line: if you want results, you've got to do the work. Anything else is just worthless lip service. :: --Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 :: diabetes, hba1c 5.2. [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] ::: Well, I'd agree with you there...if one can find a way that ::: restricts calories, then the pounds will usually come off. > The people in this newsgroup are not the norm. Most of the people I've met > in real life who have "tried" the Atkins diet read the book, did induction, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > intensive computer folk or b) people who have dramatic responses during the > first weeks of the diet. or c) very fat. I think the factor that you might be missing is motivation. There are a lot of people who ~want~ to lose weight but are not willing to expend the time and effort it takes to understand, let alone change, nutritional intake and/or lifestyle. Can some people drop pounds on LC without a lot of study? Yes. But for most to have long term success they need to at least have some knowledge base to work from. People on any eating or exercise plan are unlikely to succeed without some degree of understanding about basic principles. The people I see fail on eating or exercise plans are those who go about it blindly without any motivation to learn or at least have exchanges with those with experience. While we may have a percentage of people who drop in and out of ASDLC that go about their plans blindly, I think a fairly high percentage of people who have come so far as to subscribed and read a NG, are at least motivated enough to learn from others and from the educational materials that are offered here. >>| The diet where they compared Atkins, Ornish, Weight Watchers and Zone >>showed [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >> >>Peter SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm Rudy, I agree with you that motivation is important, but I think what you are calling "motivation" may well reflect a deeper personality type issue. For some people it is natural to study and master the information needed to succeed on a diet. I wouldn't be surprised if these are the same kind of people who balance their checkbooks every month and keep their business receipts neatly sorted into folders. Other people find that kind of approach painful to impossible for reasons that are often hard to understand for those of us who find such behaviors easy. I have seen grown people reduced, literally, to tears when asked to do something as simple as sort their business receipts in a logical way--and have noticed that the same people are those that find it impossible to count food values be it calories or carbs. I suspect that until we can really understand the minds of people who have trouble with this kind of behavior rather than assuming they're "lazy" or "unmotivated" we'll never really connect with them in a way that can help them improve their health. I suspect this also has a lot to do with failure to control blood sugar in people with diabetes. There is something about numbers of all types that seem to be extremely upsetting so a certain subset of otherwise normal people. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > > The people in this newsgroup are not the norm. Most of the people I've met > > in real life who have "tried" the Atkins diet read the book, did induction, [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > > Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm > Rudy, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > people who balance their checkbooks every month and keep their business > receipts neatly sorted into folders. I see your point, and to a degree I can agree. But too often I've seen educated, pulled together people place their own physiology into the realm of some sort of mystic voodoo. The views on how the body works usually fall in one of two ways: either a false belief that they complete understand their bodies (and that somehow their body works completely different than anyone else's), or a complete lack of any understanding of the basics -- which leads to the idea that everything that happens in their body cannot be explained by science. I've listened while people who seemed to be educated talk about following diets that make no sense whatsoever, seen bright people set themselves up on training plans that are doomed to failure and tried to talk to those who are not willing to do attempt any physical change for themselves because they don't believe their health is within their control. The last of the above is the one that truly bothers me -- those who will take no responsibility for their own health. On the flip side, a person who may not be all that bright and have little going on can have enough power to learn a little, ask a few questions, and make some objective observations about how their body works and they end up doing better then the brightest. > -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, > hba1c 5.2. [quoted text clipped - 143 lines] >> >>Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm |
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