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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004

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A few questions...

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Frank - 23 Jan 2004 14:39 GMT
Hi folks,
I have a few questions, if someone could clarify...

1) Why does Atkins recomment a two-week induction period, when it only
takes about three days to initially get into ketosis?

2) I've heard a couple of people say that regards aerobic exercise, it
is after 30 minutes that the body really starts to burn body fat. Is
this also true for poeple on a ketogenic diet?

3) I've heard body-building eperts say that after 40 minutes of a man
working out, his body starts making estrogen, which causes the body to
start using muscle as a fuel source. Is this true for men doing
aerobic workouts?

4) 60% of my max heart rate is 128 bpm. What is the optimum heart rate
for me to work out at for fat-burning purposes?

5) I started a ketogenic diet plus a daily aerobic workout exactly two
weks ago, weighing 207 lbs. I have lost eleven pounds in tis two
weeks. Is this good going?

6) Is there any health reason why one should limit the amount of
weight one loses per week, provided one is not feeling exhausted or
run-down?

Many thanks for any help on any of these qns..

Frank
SadMu_n - 23 Jan 2004 14:44 GMT
>1) Why does Atkins recomment a two-week induction period, when it only
>takes about three days to initially get into ketosis?

Because you can continue to dehydrate and the deleterious effect is
that you are actually losing fat when you are being tricked and
deceived. Water loss.

>2) I've heard a couple of people say that regards aerobic exercise, it
>is after 30 minutes that the body really starts to burn body fat. Is
>this also true for poeple on a ketogenic diet?

No.

>3) I've heard body-building eperts say that after 40 minutes of a man
>working out, his body starts making estrogen, which causes the body to
>start using muscle as a fuel source. Is this true for men doing
>aerobic workouts?

No.

>4) 60% of my max heart rate is 128 bpm. What is the optimum heart rate
>for me to work out at for fat-burning purposes?

Right there.

>5) I started a ketogenic diet plus a daily aerobic workout exactly two
>weks ago, weighing 207 lbs. I have lost eleven pounds in tis two
>weeks. Is this good going?

If you like dehydration.

>6) Is there any health reason why one should limit the amount of
>weight one loses per week, provided one is not feeling exhausted or
>run-down?

Yes.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Frank - 23 Jan 2004 18:58 GMT
>>>1) Why does Atkins recomment a two-week induction period, when it only
>>>takes about three days to initially get into ketosis?
>>
>>Because you can continue to dehydrate and the deleterious effect is
>>that you are actually losing fat when you are being tricked and
>>deceived. Water loss.

Thanks for the comments. I'm aware of the water loss thing which is
all unwanted weight as far as I'm concerned, and I'm glad to lose it.
Without that eleven pounds, (be it fat or water or a combination) I
can work out better in the gym so I am (I think) more easily able to
keep my metabolism up and burn fat...

Frank
Sun & Mun_ - 23 Jan 2004 18:58 GMT
>. I'm aware of the water loss thing which is
>all unwanted weight as far as I'm concerned, and I'm glad to lose it.

Are you certain that you had been carrying that much "excess" water?

>Without that eleven pounds, (be it fat or water or a combination) I
>can work out better in the gym so I am (I think) more easily able to
>keep my metabolism up and burn fat...

Careful with the idea that you are burning fat when exercising.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Frank - 23 Jan 2004 21:24 GMT
>>>. I'm aware of the water loss thing which is
>>>all unwanted weight as far as I'm concerned, and I'm glad to lose it.
>>
>>Are you certain that you had been carrying that much "excess" water?

No... I thought it was you who suggested that! :-)

>>>Without that eleven pounds, (be it fat or water or a combination) I
>>>can work out better in the gym so I am (I think) more easily able to
>>>keep my metabolism up and burn fat...
>>
>>Careful with the idea that you are burning fat when exercising.

Well, I hope it's fat that I'm burning - rather than muscle or carbs
derived from protein. Why... is there any reason why I wouldn't be
burning some fat?

Frank
Sun & Mun_ - 23 Jan 2004 21:26 GMT
>>>Careful with the idea that you are burning fat when exercising.
>
>Well, I hope it's fat that I'm burning - rather than muscle or carbs
>derived from protein. Why... is there any reason why I wouldn't be
>burning some fat?

I think that you have misplaced your words perhaps. Muscular activity,
in the times that you mentioned, is rarely fueled by fat metabolism.
Now, are you increasing your caloric expenditures, sure.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Roger Zoul - 23 Jan 2004 14:54 GMT
:: Hi folks,
:: I have a few questions, if someone could clarify...
::
:: 1) Why does Atkins recomment a two-week induction period, when it
:: only takes about three days to initially get into ketosis?

The purpose of induction is not simply to induce ketosis -- it is to break
various addictions and it takes about two weeks for that to happen.  Did you
not read the book?

:: 2) I've heard a couple of people say that regards aerobic exercise,
:: it is after 30 minutes that the body really starts to burn body fat.
:: Is this also true for poeple on a ketogenic diet?

Ignore such statements.  Practically speaking, the aerobic fat-burning zone
is useless since you generally only burn little fuel.  Just focus on burning
calories -- burn more than your bodies requires to maintain weight and
you'll generally lose weight (the exception may be if you're somehow
metabolically screwed). Read the links I provide below.

:: 3) I've heard body-building eperts say that after 40 minutes of a man
:: working out, his body starts making estrogen, which causes the body
:: to start using muscle as a fuel source. Is this true for men doing
:: aerobic workouts?

I think the part about using muscle for fuel is nonsense.  As long as you
have sufficient dietary protein, your body won't eat muscle. LC diets
generally result in sparing muscle when losing weight. However, prolonged
workouts are generally not optimal for some purposes -- like growing muscle
(the slant taking by BB mags and such).  Also, when restricting calories,
long workouts may result in too much of a calorie deficit, and that may have
negative effects on your body if maintained long enough.  But 40 minutes
should not be a problem.

:: 4) 60% of my max heart rate is 128 bpm. What is the optimum heart
:: rate for me to work out at for fat-burning purposes?

http://www.wsu.edu/~strength/hiit.htm

http://www.cbass.com/FATBURN.HTM

http://www.stumptuous.com/fartlek.html

I suggest you not attempt HIIT until you have a sound aerobic base (have
been doing regular aerobic activity for a good period of time and with more
than just very low intensity).  If you've been sedentary and decide to start
HIIT tomorrow, you might drop dead.

:: 5) I started a ketogenic diet plus a daily aerobic workout exactly
:: two weks ago, weighing 207 lbs. I have lost eleven pounds in tis two
:: weeks. Is this good going?

Some of that weight loss is water weight.....it is normal for that to happen
when starting a LC diet.  However, once that initial water weight is gone,
your weight loss will slow greatly.

:: 6) Is there any health reason why one should limit the amount of
:: weight one loses per week, provided one is not feeling exhausted or
:: run-down?

I think so.  Weight loss that is too rapid will result in lots of muscle
mass loss. Keep in mind that this may be in any muscle within your body --
things like organs, too (though probaby not likely if you have big leg
muscles).  A good rate is 1 to 2 lbs per week.  If you are very heavy,
you're more likely to be at the high end.

:: Many thanks for any help on any of these qns..
::
:: Frank
Sun & Mun_ - 23 Jan 2004 14:59 GMT
>Some of that weight loss is water weight.....it is normal for that to happen
>when starting a LC diet.  However, once that initial water weight is gone,
>your weight loss will slow greatly.

Is it your opinion then that water loss (weight) does not or does not
need to be regained?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Roger Zoul - 23 Jan 2004 15:11 GMT
:: On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:54:52 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
:: Is it your opinion then that water loss (weight) does not or does not
:: need to be regained?

After being in the reduced water weight state mostly for over two years, I
don't see why it does.  I consume plenty of liquid and exercise hard.  If
you follow a plan like ATkins, my guess is it would eventually come back
anyway once you move into maintenance, where your carb intake will be much
higher than while on induction.

I will note, however, that when I carb up and regain the water weight, I
enjoy the feeling of the pump I get.  Last time I did that I took creatine
too and it was freaky.

I know some consider the water weight loss as dehydration, but I don't think
that can be so.
Sun & Mun_ - 23 Jan 2004 15:24 GMT
>:: Is it your opinion then that water loss (weight) does not or does not
>:: need to be regained after induction?

>After being in the reduced water weight state mostly for over two years, I
>don't see why it does.  I consume plenty of liquid and exercise hard.  If
>you follow a plan like ATkins, my guess is it would eventually come back
>anyway once you move into maintenance, where your carb intake will be much
>higher than while on induction.

Then would you agree, when entering induction in a hydrated state,
that remaining in a dehydrated state,  is a healthy approach?

I am wondering why the body would rehydrate itself if the dehydrated
state is acceptable.

>I will note, however, that when I carb up and regain the water weight, I
>enjoy the feeling of the pump I get.  Last time I did that I took creatine
>too and it was freaky.

Why did you take creatine?

>I know some consider the water weight loss as dehydration, but I don't think
>that can be so.

If you enter induction hydrated, then lose several pounds of weight in
a week or two, this would essentially, by definition, be a state of
dehydration.

Roger, Atkins induction, and I hear you when you claim that induction
is about reducing or eliminating food cravings, is a ruse. We know
that the Atkins plan is all about failure over time for the vast
majority of people, and induction, when viewed objectively, is not
true weight (fat) loss. Induction, in the end, when the weight comes
back, is a false promise and nothing more than a "feel good"
proposition that Dr. Bob knew would assist in selling his books and
propagating his dead end diet program.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Roger Zoul - 23 Jan 2004 16:22 GMT
::::: Is it your opinion then that water loss (weight) does not or does
::::: not need to be regained after induction?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
:: Then would you agree, when entering induction in a hydrated state,
:: that remaining in a dehydrated state,  is a healthy approach?

Well, look at the definition of dehrdration (from dictionary.com):

 1.. The process of removing water from a substance or compound.
 2.. Excessive loss of water from the body or from an organ or body part,
as from illness or fluid deprivation
So, the question in my mind is whether there is excessive loss of water from
illness or fluid deprivation.  The answer, in my mind, is no.  This is based
simply on my own personal experience and what I've noticed of others.  If
the dehydration came from not getting enough fluid or from illness, that is
another matter, imo.

:: I am wondering why the body would rehydrate itself if the dehydrated
:: state is acceptable.

Glycogen in liver and muscle issue -- you know that.  The body is just
responding to the food it is receiving. When those carbs come in, some can
be stored for quick energy.  When they don't, the body can still function.

::: I will note, however, that when I carb up and regain the water
::: weight, I enjoy the feeling of the pump I get.  Last time I did
::: that I took creatine too and it was freaky.
::
:: Why did you take creatine?

An experiment.  I don't take the stuff on a regular basis - just that once
time.  I've read all of the claims for it, but I was sort of interested in
getting a pump.  You see, on LC, I rarely get pumps -- not that it is
important -- but I remember them from my younger days.  Since I carry more
muscle now and since I can see them better because of the fat loss -- well,
I'm sure you get the point.

::: I know some consider the water weight loss as dehydration, but I
::: don't think that can be so.
::
:: If you enter induction hydrated, then lose several pounds of weight
:: in a week or two, this would essentially, by definition, be a state
:: of dehydration.

I don't think so...but even if it is, I don't see it has the least bit
harmful.

:: Roger, Atkins induction, and I hear you when you claim that induction
:: is about reducing or eliminating food cravings, is a ruse.

Well, I won't argue that induction is necessary.  Several LC plans don't
have an induction period and they still work, afaik.

We know
:: that the Atkins plan is all about failure over time for the vast
:: majority of people, and induction, when viewed objectively, is not
:: true weight (fat) loss.

Induction is not about fat loss -- true.  But people do lose weight (fat) on
induction.  It is just that most of the initial weight loss is water which
comes back just as quickly (or quicker) than it left.  This cannot be
denied, imo.

Induction, in the end, when the weight comes
:: back, is a false promise and nothing more than a "feel good"
:: proposition that Dr. Bob knew would assist in selling his books and
:: propagating his dead end diet program.

Well, I don't know what Dr. Bob knew....certainly the "feel good" aspect is
real, since many people respond positively to the rapid weight loss.
Honestly, I do sometimes wish there was no such thing as induction or
ketostix (at least for check for ketosis by a dieter).

But where I disagree is with your focus on induction.  That is only one part
of Dr. Bob's plan -- and the briefest part.  To judge the entire weight loss
program by a two week period if unfair.  Maybe Dr. Bob did have the purpose
you suggest in mind -- but if in the end that fast weight loss for someone
very heavy helps them stick to the program long term -- I see that has
working to a greater good.

So if the 120 lbs I've lost so far is really only 110 lbs (and I can pull in
a full 10 lbs of water weight over a weekend), then I'm still happy and much
better off.  And I've been at this for over two years.
Sun & Mun_ - 23 Jan 2004 16:49 GMT
>:: Then would you agree, when entering induction in a hydrated state,
>:: that remaining in a dehydrated state,  is a healthy approach?

>Well, look at the definition of dehrdration (from dictionary.com):
>
>  1.. The process of removing water from a substance or compound.

Yes, we are either hydrating or dehydrating.

>  2.. Excessive loss of water from the body or from an organ or body part,
>as from illness or fluid deprivation

Or induction.

>So, the question in my mind is whether there is excessive loss of water from
>illness or fluid deprivation.  The answer, in my mind, is no.  This is based
>simply on my own personal experience and what I've noticed of others.  If
>the dehydration came from not getting enough fluid or from illness, that is
>another matter, imo.

I would disagree and point to the fact that induction creates
dehydration that the body would, under normal, healthy circumstances,
severely resist.

>:: I am wondering why the body would rehydrate itself if the dehydrated
>:: state is acceptable.

>Glycogen in liver and muscle issue -- you know that.  The body is just
>responding to the food it is receiving. When those carbs come in, some can
>be stored for quick energy.  When they don't, the body can still function.

Sure but the fact that, at some point, the body no longer will accept
the dehydrated state artificially initiated by induction speaks
volumes about induction from a health standpoint. If the body did not
need that fluid, it would, over time, remove it. It apparently needs
and desires it, biochemically, and , hence, does back to a state of
more normal hydration.

>::: I will note, however, that when I carb up and regain the water
>::: weight, I enjoy the feeling of the pump I get.  Last time I did
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>muscle now and since I can see them better because of the fat loss -- well,
>I'm sure you get the point.

Understood. Is this nothing more than rehydration since creatine is
known for its ability to assist in water storage?

>::: I know some consider the water weight loss as dehydration, but I
>::: don't think that can be so.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>I don't think so...but even if it is, I don't see it has the least bit
>harmful.

I would suggest that causing the body to artificially dehydrate is,
again by definition, harmful. Why else would the body prefer to be
hydrated?

>:: Roger, Atkins induction, and I hear you when you claim that induction
>:: is about reducing or eliminating food cravings, is a ruse.
>
>Well, I won't argue that induction is necessary.  Several LC plans don't
>have an induction period and they still work, afaik.

Yes, but Atkins doesn't allow for that. Dr. Bob specifically points to
an induction phase and I believe it is a fraudulent, self-serving,
knowingly deceitful and charlatanisitc recommendation.

> We know
>:: that the Atkins plan is all about failure over time for the vast
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>comes back just as quickly (or quicker) than it left.  This cannot be
>denied, imo.

I will agree that inducted weight loss is not all water and part of it
is in muscular-connective tissue loss as well as loss in other
tissues. In short, I don't see one good thing about induction and
Atkins has perpetuated this fraud to his grave.

>Induction, in the end, when the weight comes
>:: back, is a false promise and nothing more than a "feel good"
>:: proposition that Dr. Bob knew would assist in selling his books and
>:: propagating his dead end diet program.
>
>Well, I don't know what Dr. Bob knew....

Oh, Roger, he knew it and you know he knew it and if he didn't know
it, why in the world would anyone believe anything this man had to
say?

>certainly the "feel good" aspect is
>real, since many people respond positively to the rapid weight loss.

Sure do. Magic pill time.

>Honestly, I do sometimes wish there was no such thing as induction or
>ketostix (at least for check for ketosis by a dieter).

Same here.

>But where I disagree is with your focus on induction.  That is only one part
>of Dr. Bob's plan -- and the briefest part.  To judge the entire weight loss
>program by a two week period if unfair.

I really don't judge Atkins totally on his insistence on induction but
I tell you what....it is so full of crap it colors all the rest of his
diet plan which is also nothing more, in reality, than a disguised
reduced eating scheme.

> Maybe Dr. Bob did have the purpose
>you suggest in mind -- but if in the end that fast weight loss for someone
>very heavy helps them stick to the program long term -- I see that has
>working to a greater good.

The failure numbers don't agree with that assessment, mof, when the
day is done, most people who yo-yo back feel "had." They figure out
that they have been deceived. People are not like cars; they don't
respond to jump starts when the jump start is proved to be put forward
as real and ends up being a ruse.

>So if the 120 lbs I've lost so far is really only 110 lbs (and I can pull in
>a full 10 lbs of water weight over a weekend), then I'm still happy and much
>better off.  And I've been at this for over two years.

Congratulations.

At two years, now is the time you are entering your greatest risk
period.

Be wary.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Roger Zoul - 23 Jan 2004 17:22 GMT
::::: Then would you agree, when entering induction in a hydrated state,
::::: that remaining in a dehydrated state,  is a healthy approach?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
::
:: Or induction.

Your opinion.  It is not proven harmful.

::: So, the question in my mind is whether there is excessive loss of
::: water from illness or fluid deprivation.  The answer, in my mind,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
:: dehydration that the body would, under normal, healthy circumstances,
:: severely resist.

See....normal conditions means beyond a certain intake of carbs.  If carbs
were not so easy to get, normal conditions would be different.  The body,
imo, would still function.  When it is supplied with quick energy, it saves
some (in case something wants to eat us :) )

::::: I am wondering why the body would rehydrate itself if the
::::: dehydrated state is acceptable.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
:: and desires it, biochemically, and , hence, does back to a state of
:: more normal hydration.

If you remove the carbs, it removes its.  Your argument is basically a
statement that the body needs the carbs, because if fills the muscles &
liver with gylcogen when plenty of carbs are present.

:::::: I will note, however, that when I carb up and regain the water
:::::: weight, I enjoy the feeling of the pump I get.  Last time I did
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
:: Understood. Is this nothing more than rehydration since creatine is
:: known for its ability to assist in water storage?

Right. Creatine combined with a carb up, mind you.  So I got a water rush
and about 10 lbs of weight gain in two days.

:::::: I know some consider the water weight loss as dehydration, but I
:::::: don't think that can be so.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
:: again by definition, harmful. Why else would the body prefer to be
:: hydrated?

Because when the body stores that quick energy it stores water along with
it.  It simply goes to another operating point.  Sort of like a transistor.
You're putting in a bias when you suggest that the body perfers to hold the
water.

::::: Roger, Atkins induction, and I hear you when you claim that
::::: induction is about reducing or eliminating food cravings, is a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
:: to an induction phase and I believe it is a fraudulent, self-serving,
:: knowingly deceitful and charlatanisitc recommendation.

I believe it was how he set up his plan - a choice. For those used to eating
carploads of carbs, he wanted to break that cycle.  It makes logical sense
to me.  Note that he could have suggested people to stay on induction -- but
he did not.

::: We know
::::: that the Atkins plan is all about failure over time for the vast
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
:: tissues. In short, I don't see one good thing about induction and
:: Atkins has perpetuated this fraud to his grave.

Well, we'll just have to disagree on that.  I see some good points, but I
don't see it as necessary. Sadly, it does bring with it some bad points, but
I simply don't see dyhydration as one of them.  I'm ready to be shown that
I'm wrong, btw.

::: Induction, in the end, when the weight comes
::::: back, is a false promise and nothing more than a "feel good"
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
:: it, why in the world would anyone believe anything this man had to
:: say?

What a minute.  You're saying that he knew quick water loss would sell
books.  I don't know that he knew that.  That's your assertion -- and I
don't assume his goal was simply to sell books (if it were, he'd have done a
much better job on developing he book itself). I'm sure he knew there would
be quick weight loss due to water loss.  So one should separate Atkins the
business man from Atkins the doctor and inventor of a weight loss plan.  I
see no reason to believe Atkins as an astute business man.

::: certainly the "feel good" aspect is
::: real, since many people respond positively to the rapid weight loss.
::
:: Sure do. Magic pill time.

Human nature.  Take the easy road. Electricity does that whenever it can.
Universal law, methinks.

::: Honestly, I do sometimes wish there was no such thing as induction
::: or ketostix (at least for check for ketosis by a dieter).
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
:: of his diet plan which is also nothing more, in reality, than a
:: disguised reduced eating scheme.

That's exactly what it is, imo.  A reduced eating scheme that lots of people
can follow.  If induction messes it up for you, that's just too bad, really.
I see induction as a tool devised by a doctor who was trying to help people.
We can debate whether it was a good idea or not, but I don't see it as an
evil plan hatched to sell books.  If Atkins had really been trying to sell
books, he would have hired someone  to rewrite this damn book to make it
easy to extract information from.  As it is, the damn book is hard reading.

::: Maybe Dr. Bob did have the purpose
::: you suggest in mind -- but if in the end that fast weight loss for
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
:: respond to jump starts when the jump start is proved to be put
:: forward as real and ends up being a ruse.

Well, I never know where you get failure numbers on a specific diet.
However, the real problem with diets is not the diet, but the people using
them.  What you refer to is just part of human nature -- people are
resistance to real change -- especially where diet is concerned.

::: So if the 120 lbs I've lost so far is really only 110 lbs (and I
::: can pull in a full 10 lbs of water weight over a weekend), then I'm
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
::
:: Be wary.

I hear ya.  That's why I remain here to keep my focus. Also, I set my goals
high, so if I fall short I'll hopefull still end up in a much much better
place than I was.
jamie - 24 Jan 2004 16:47 GMT
> Then would you agree, when entering induction in a hydrated state,
> that remaining in a dehydrated state,  is a healthy approach?
>
> I am wondering why the body would rehydrate itself if the dehydrated
> state is acceptable.

The water loss is a factor of depleting glycogen stores, and returns when
one goes out of ketosis.  It feels to be a lot easier to become dehydrated
when one is not storing that several extra pounds of water bound up with
glycogen, but dehydration is not a necessary result of dietary ketosis.

Signature

 jamie  (jamiemck@newsguy.com)

         "There's a seeker born every minute."

Sun & Mun_ - 25 Jan 2004 21:49 GMT
>> I am wondering why the body would rehydrate itself if the dehydrated
>> state is acceptable.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>when one is not storing that several extra pounds of water bound up with
>glycogen, but dehydration is not a necessary result of dietary ketosis.

Ok

Then the body's autoregulation system prefers t be well hydrated. Yes?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Doug Freyburger - 23 Jan 2004 20:50 GMT
> > Some of that weight loss is water weight.....it is normal for that to happen
> > when starting a LC diet.  However, once that initial water weight is gone,
> > your weight loss will slow greatly.
>
> Is it your opinion then that water loss (weight) does not or does not
> need to be regained?

Let's see if I understand your bizzarely worded question.  It looks like
like you asked this:

Given the fact that Induction loss includes water loss.  Given the fact
that dehydration is bad.  Why is losing water during Induction a good
thing?

The answer to that line of reasoning is this:

The water lost during Induction does not lead to dehydration so the
question is a red herring.

Do pay attention some time.  The body stores its carbs in the liver as
glycogen dissolved in water, plus some in the muscles as glycogen
dissolved in water, and likely elsewhere.  When you go into ketosis
during Induction, the body burns off the glycogen stored in the liver.
Goodbye stored carbs, goodbye water it was dissolved in.  Since that
water was not available outside of the liver, it didn't effect overall
hydration of the body *at all*.

So given that the water loss during Induction doesn't effect the body's
hydration status, the only benefit of recharging the liver with carbs
again is to be able to start storing new fat easily.  Not much of a
benefit.
Sun & Mun_ - 23 Jan 2004 21:04 GMT
>> Is it your opinion then that water loss (weight) does not or does not
>> need to be regained?
>
>Let's see if I understand your bizzarely worded question.

Speaking of bizarre, when you worhip Goia and Goliun running around
your house eating mozzorella di water buffala and wearing a horn on
your head, transubstantiating and shouting Linux OS commands to the
heavens,  while searching the ends of Usenet for a listing of bison
farmers and coins that have Galileo's half-bald head, do you draw
attention with the neighbors?

> It looks like
>like you asked this:
>
>Given the fact that Induction loss includes water loss.  Given the fact
>that dehydration is bad.  Why is losing water during Induction a good
>thing?

That's not what I asked.

Go away. I can't stop laughing at the thought of that horn on your
head.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Doug Freyburger - 26 Jan 2004 23:10 GMT
> Speaking of bizarre, when you worhip Goia and Goliun running around
> your house eating mozzorella di water buffala and wearing a horn on
> your head, transubstantiating and shouting Linux OS commands to the
> heavens,  while searching the ends of Usenet for a listing of bison
> farmers and coins that have Galileo's half-bald head, do you draw
> attention with the neighbors?

Cool, the troll knows how to do Google search.  Congratulations you
have been able to notice several of my publicly available hobbies and
activities.  What a stunning act of, uhm, clicking a link in Google.

The problem is it's an ad homeim attack and that makes it a logical
falacy.  You've been unable to deal with my response so you have
lashed out at me as a person.  At least it's consistant with your
trolling pattern.

So i'll repeat me stance in your argument about dehydration:

> > Given the fact that Induction loss includes water loss.  Given the fact
> > that dehydration is bad.  Why is losing water during Induction a good
> > thing?

Because the water lost during Induction does not participate in general
body hydration because it was taken up dissolving stored carbs, that's why.

Thanks for the troll, though.
Sun & Mun_ - 27 Jan 2004 04:58 GMT
>Cool, the troll knows how to do Google search.  Congratulations you
>have been able to notice several of my publicly available hobbies and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>lashed out at me as a person.  At least it's consistant with your
>trolling pattern.

Speaking of bizarre, when you worship Goia and Goliun running around
your house eating mozzorella di water buffala and wearing a horn on
your head, transubstantiating and shouting Linux OS commands to the
heavens,  while searching the ends of Usenet for a listing of bison
farmers and coins that have Galileo's half-bald head, do you draw
attention with the neighbors?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Frank - 23 Jan 2004 19:04 GMT
>>Frank wrote:
>>:: Hi folks,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>various addictions and it takes about two weeks for that to happen.  Did you
>>not read the book?

Not really. I've read Lyle McDonalds BodyOpus book, but I have only
just acquired the Atkins book, and am trying to find the time to read
it in more detail.

>>:: 2) I've heard a couple of people say that regards aerobic exercise,
>>:: it is after 30 minutes that the body really starts to burn body fat.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>>than just very low intensity).  If you've been sedentary and decide to start
>>HIIT tomorrow, you might drop dead.

Thank for the links and the tips. Yes, I've been doing jogging and
uphill walking for about 30 to 40 mins daily for the last two weeks,
and I don't yet feel capable of HIIT. In fact today, I found it really
hard work even to get my pulse up to 60% of max. But after I did, and
kept it there for 30 minutes, I did the last ten minutes jogging
uphill at about 150bpm. Don't feel up to HIIT yet though. Not tired of
living yet.. ;-)

Frank
Roger Zoul - 23 Jan 2004 19:09 GMT
:: On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:54:52 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
:: just acquired the Atkins book, and am trying to find the time to read
:: it in more detail.

I wasn't aware taht Lyle wrote BodyOpus.  I thought that was Dan
somebody....I have some book at home by the name BodyOpus, but haven't
gotten around to reading it.  I do know Lyle did a book or two in the same
vein as bodyopus (ketogenic diet and ultimate diet 2.0)
Sun & Mun_ - 23 Jan 2004 19:14 GMT
>I wasn't aware taht Lyle wrote BodyOpus.  I thought that was Dan DUCHAINE
>somebody....I have some book at home by the name BodyOpus, but haven't
>gotten around to reading it.  I do know Lyle did a book or two in the same
>vein as bodyopus (ketogenic diet and ultimate diet 2.0)

http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
Frank - 23 Jan 2004 21:21 GMT
>>I wasn't aware taht Lyle wrote BodyOpus.  

Pehaps he didn't; I may be wrong about the title. I read Lyle McD's
big thick softcover book on ketogenic diets, anyway. (That was about
three years ago)..

Frank
PJx - 23 Jan 2004 15:51 GMT
Frank.
 You should plan on a couple of months on induction, not two weeks.  
PJ

>Hi folks,
>I have a few questions, if someone could clarify...
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
>Frank
Frank - 23 Jan 2004 18:53 GMT
>>Frank.
>>  You should plan on a couple of months on induction, not two weeks.  
>>PJ

PJ,
Why? I'm kinda new to Atkins, and haven't read his books in detail,
but I've read McDonald's theories about ketogenic diets. This time
(with his suggestions in mind) I did a three day induction with as
litle carbs as possible. Once in ketosis, I increase my carbs to about
30g, keeping an eye on my keto-stix. I guess perhaps Atkins would
class this as still induction phase, yes? I've been on this diet now
for a couple of weeks. No cravings whatsoever... no hunger... no
discomfort. I feel fine all-round.  

Would you say I'm still in induction as long as my keto-sticks give a
reading?

Not being too familiar with Atkins theories, I would be inclined to
stay on my current eating tactics as long as I continue to lose
weight, and feel fine. Why does Atkins recommend increasing carb
intake after the induction phase? And I'm interested to know why you
think a couple of months on minimal carbs is advisable - thanks.

regards

Frank
PJx - 24 Jan 2004 06:08 GMT
>>>Frank.
>>>  You should plan on a couple of months on induction, not two weeks.  
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>Frank

Frank, just spend a couple of hours reading these messages and pay
special attention to how many times people stall.   That's why.  
PJ
Frank - 24 Jan 2004 10:38 GMT
>>>>>Frank.
>>>>>  You should plan on a couple of months on induction, not two weeks.  
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>special attention to how many times people stall.   That's why.  
>>PJ

PJ, Ah, yes... I see your point. I've been there and done that too!
And certainly, my own inclination is to remain in what Atkins calls
the indiction phase for a long time... i.e., no more than 30 to 50 g
of carbs a day.. and definitely no sugars or starches.

Frank
FOB - 24 Jan 2004 19:48 GMT
Induction is less than 20 g, don't talk about what Atkins says without first
reading what Atkins says.  Induction also limits you to certain foods.  You
can add other foods and stay under 20 g and still won't be doing induction.

In news:40124ac2.3716693@news.cis.dfn.de,
Frank <Franky32@nospam.net> stated

| PJ, Ah, yes... I see your point. I've been there and done that too!
| And certainly, my own inclination is to remain in what Atkins calls
| the indiction phase for a long time... i.e., no more than 30 to 50 g
| of carbs a day.. and definitely no sugars or starches.
|
| Frank
Saffire - 24 Jan 2004 20:05 GMT
> And certainly, my own inclination is to remain in what Atkins calls
> the indiction phase for a long time... i.e., no more than 30 to 50 g
> of carbs a day.. and definitely no sugars or starches.

Induction is no more than TWENTY carbs per day, so you would be moving into
Ongoing Weight Loss (OWL), which IS the advisable thing to do.

Signature

Saffire
205/175/125
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo:  http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

jamie - 24 Jan 2004 16:59 GMT
>>>>Frank.
>>>>  You should plan on a couple of months on induction, not two weeks.  
>>>>PJ
>>
>>PJ,
>>Why? I'm kinda new to Atkins, and haven't read his books in detail,
[snipped]
>  Frank, just spend a couple of hours reading these messages and pay
> special attention to how many times people stall.   That's why.  
> PJ

Horsepuckey.  The majority of the stallers are staying at 20g/day for
long periods, for no reason better than fear of adding few carbs.
Some people do need to stay that low, but plenty of people have reported
losing just as fast or faster when they moved on to around 40g/day.

Staying at induction levels requires you to pad meals and snacks with
more volume of fattier foods to fill you up.  Moving on allows more
vegetables and small amounts of fruit for side dishes and snacks,
helping to lower overall calories.

168/125/125  LC since 2/18/97 maintaining since 3/17/99

Signature

 jamie  (jamiemck@newsguy.com)

         "There's a seeker born every minute."

PJx - 26 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT
>Horsepuckey.  The majority of the stallers are staying at 20g/day for
>long periods, for no reason better than fear of adding few carbs.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>vegetables and small amounts of fruit for side dishes and snacks,
>helping to lower overall calories.

 Again, Jamie is making things up.  

Compete utter lies.

PJ
jamie - 26 Jan 2004 17:02 GMT
>>Horsepuckey.  The majority of the stallers are staying at 20g/day for
>>long periods, for no reason better than fear of adding few carbs.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>  Compete utter lies.

I've been LCing almost 7 yrs, with almost 5 yrs of that maintaining goal.

You are either an idiot or a troll, and the only useful advice you have
ever had for anyone in your posting history is frequent reposting of
the atkinscenter link for starting Atkins.

--
 jamie  (jamiemck@newsguy.com)

         "There's a seeker born every minute."
Carmen - 26 Jan 2004 22:01 GMT
Hello,

> >Horsepuckey.  The majority of the stallers are staying at 20g/day
> >for long periods, for no reason better than fear of adding few
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>  Compete utter lies.

PJ, calories count.  It's that simple.  Look at the successful long
termers in the group.  Ask them if calories count.  I'll start (100
pound loss, over 5 years of low carbing now) : YES, calories count.
Jamie is another successful long termer.
Carmen
Doug Freyburger - 26 Jan 2004 22:57 GMT
> > The majority of the stallers are staying at 20g/day for
> > long periods, for no reason better than fear of adding few carbs.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Again, Jamie is making things up.  

You might think so if you didn't bother to read the constant string of
posts of folks who stayed low and stalled.  You might think so if you
didn't bother to read any popular low carb book since each and every
one of them has you move up in carb levels soon after starting.  Jamie
is accurating observing actual facts and reporting on those actual facts.

The reason the core Atkins 4-phase process has folks move on to OWL after
2 weeks is simple.  It works better for most people.  Not for everyone
and especially not for a lot of folks who have 100+ to lose, but for most.
More importantly, anyone who stayed at 20 and reports that they lose better
at that level is talking a line of nonsense.  Without moving to higher carb
levels they can't possibly know that.  I've watched very many move up and
lose faster.  More than I've watched move down and lose faster.
PJx - 27 Jan 2004 16:54 GMT
>> > The majority of the stallers are staying at 20g/day for
>> > long periods, for no reason better than fear of adding few carbs.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>levels they can't possibly know that.  I've watched very many move up and
>lose faster.  More than I've watched move down and lose faster.

Your sample size is not scientific so go ahead and make stuff up.
But don't quote it as science.

PJ
Doug Freyburger - 28 Jan 2004 14:54 GMT
> > The reason the core Atkins 4-phase process has folks move on to OWL after
> > 2 weeks is simple.  It works better for most people.  Not for everyone
> > and especially not for a lot of folks who have 100+ to lose, but for most.
...
> > I've watched very many move up and
> > lose faster.  More than I've watched move down and lose faster.
>
> Your sample size is not scientific so go ahead and make stuff up.

Your lack of data is even more not scientific.  Go right ahead and show
any data whatsoever that less carbs means more loss, that the 1-phase
reduction of Atkins works better than the 4-phase entire Atkins.  Oh
right, you can't.  There's no scientifically gathered scientific data
on the topic, not anywhere.  Dr Atkins even bragged about not gathering
tabular data.

Talk about "go ahead and make stuff up".  The accusation works even
better for your stance than it does for my stance.

Recently there are plenty of comparative studies that compare plans like
Induction against low fat, low calorie of the USDA pyramid.  Those
studies show that Induction works better than low fat for the same
calorie intake and at least as well as low-fat/low-calorie at different
calorie intakes.  Duh, Dr Atkins and others have been claiming that for
decades so the studies just confirm the claims.

But not one single scientific study has been done to compare the different
popular low carb plans or variations within one low carb plan.

> But don't quote it as science.

It isn't science.  I have never claimed that it is science.

But my assertion remains: Until someone does a real study comparing
Induction with the entire Atkins process, the data garnered from ASLDC
and any web board you care to track is the *only* data of any sort in
existance, and therefore for the moment it's the best available data.

The data garnered from ASDLC and the web board I follow the most,
Escribe, shows a very clear pattern.  Many stall if they stay at 20.
Moving up from 20 breaks most of those stalls.  More improve loss by
eating more carbs; fewer improve loss by eating less carbs.  Lacking
ANY scientific data contradicting or confirming that non-scientific
data, the conclusion to be drawn from it remains valid until better
data is put forward.  That conclusion is simple: Less is not more.

So make up stuff for your own stance all you like.  Or put forward
better data than I offer.  Data talks, opinion walks.  Better data
talks louder.  Supply the better data, plain and simple.
PJx - 28 Jan 2004 15:10 GMT
>> > The reason the core Atkins 4-phase process has folks move on to OWL after
>> > 2 weeks is simple.  It works better for most people.  Not for everyone
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>Escribe, shows a very clear pattern.  Many stall if they stay at 20.
>Moving up from 20 breaks most of those stalls.

 Absolutely pure BS.  You made this crap up and then spout it like it
was science.  You are an idiot for spouting such crap as this.

I suggest you review  the Atkins Fat Fast

>  More improve loss by
>eating more carbs; fewer improve loss by eating less carbs.  Lacking
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>better data than I offer.  Data talks, opinion walks.  Better data
>talks louder.  Supply the better data, plain and simple.
jamie - 28 Jan 2004 16:09 GMT
>  I suggest you review  the Atkins Fat Fast

Perhaps *you* ought to review it.  It's only 1000 calories/day.
Gee, I wonder why people might lose a few pounds on it.

Atkins only recommended it for a few days, but you previously posted
the link to it along with suggesting trying it for weeks.

Signature

 jamie  (jamiemck@newsguy.com)

         "There's a seeker born every minute."

Dawn Taylor - 28 Jan 2004 18:08 GMT
>>But my assertion remains: Until someone does a real study comparing
>>Induction with the entire Atkins process, the data garnered from ASLDC
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>  Absolutely pure BS.  You made this crap up and then spout it like it
>was science.  You are an idiot for spouting such crap as this.

No, he's on the money. You're smack in the middle of the only
long-term, ongoing low-carb "study" currently available. Welcome to
the monkey house.

And yeah, many low-carbers have been shown to stall if they stay at
Induction levels. Adding carbs restarts their weight loss.

Dawn
PJx - 28 Jan 2004 19:09 GMT
>>>But my assertion remains: Until someone does a real study comparing
>>>Induction with the entire Atkins process, the data garnered from ASLDC
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>long-term, ongoing low-carb "study" currently available. Welcome to
>the monkey house.

 I agree and thanks for the welcome.  

>And yeah, many low-carbers have been shown to stall if they stay at
>Induction levels. Adding carbs restarts their weight loss.

 And yeah, many low-carbers have been show to stall when they
increase their induction levels.
 

>Dawn

I hope you get my point from my comment above.  

PJ
Doug Freyburger - 28 Jan 2004 22:59 GMT
> > No, he's on the money. You're smack in the middle of the only
> > long-term, ongoing low-carb "study" currently available. Welcome to
> > the monkey house.

Chuckle.  How true.  The *only* data available anywhere is available
in the google archives of this group and any web board, available for
public inpection.

> > And yeah, many low-carbers have been shown to stall if they stay at
> > Induction levels. Adding carbs restarts their weight loss.
>
> And yeah, many low-carbers have been show to stall when they
> increase their induction levels.

Both true, but the difference is in the numbers.  The ratio is about
6-to-1 any time I count.  When dealing with a subject like weight
loss, different stuff works for different people, so the quality of
advice is determined by the chances that it will lead in the direction
that works, but it remains a chance in either direction.
Doug Freyburger - 28 Jan 2004 21:21 GMT
> > But my assertion remains: Until someone does a real study comparing
> > Induction with the entire Atkins process, the data garnered from ASLDC
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Absolutely pure BS.  You made this crap up and then spout it like it
> was science.  You are an idiot for spouting such crap as this.

Thanks for citing your abundant data.  I have raw counts from boards,
you have not even that.  The ratio of posts reporting 20-gram stalls
to 20-gram continued loss has been about 6-to-1 as far back as I have
counted.  What are your counts?  Given that there is no scientifically
valid data *at all* on either side, you'll have to do better than
calling me an idiot for gathering the only data anyone has.

Here's the deal: I wrote something you didn't like, so you called me
an idiot.  But you didn't offer a bit of data in support of your
stance, while I offered counts that I have made multiple times.  And
there's an even better part about my data: Since my sources are open
to the public, anyone can choose a high traffic discussion source,
start scanning every single post every day, and start doing their own
counts.  My 6-to-1 claim is subject to public examination on either
ASDLC or Escribe and it should be countable on any other high traffic
board.  Start a table of posters.  Everyone who reports week 6+ without
losing since Induction, put them in the stall group.  Everyone who
reports staying at 20 and continuing to lose, put them in the lose
group.  Record the claimed amount to lose on any that mention it.
Anyone who moves on to OWL goes in the third list.  Anyone not yet
to week 6 doesn't go on either list.

But if anyone ever conducts a real randomized scientific study of
what I'm using counts to measure, that study will beat my data.  Any
takers out there in PhD land?  Randomly selected pools.  Control
group not following a plan, Induction group follow only Induction,
Atkins group following the entire process spending a week out of
ketosis to find their CCLL.  More importantly, almost all studies
have been done on obsese people.  My data shows that the 6-to-1
ratio is for folks with under 50 to lose and by the time its folks
with 100+ to lose the ratio approaches 1-to-1.  So it would be
those 3 groups of folks with under 50 to go, and those 3 groups
with over 100 to go.

> I suggest you review the Atkins Fat Fast

Oh, you mean the one in the 1993 and 1999 editions with so many problems
it got dropped from the 2002 edition?  Right.  My point exactly.

> >So make up stuff for your own stance all you like.  Or put forward
> >better data than I offer.  Data talks, opinion walks.  Better data
> >talks louder.  Supply the better data, plain and simple.

So where's your data?  It doesn't even have to be scientifically valid
since mine isn't.  But it takes actual data before we can compare
counts.
PJx - 29 Jan 2004 14:24 GMT

 You are correct about the number of posts, but I think we both
realize that the members in the smaller group don't really have a
reason for posting.  It would be stating the obvious and thus no need
to waste the ink.

 Other than that, I like the way you talk, and agree with you..
PJ

>> > But my assertion remains: Until someone does a real study comparing
>> > Induction with the entire Atkins process, the data garnered from ASLDC
>> > and any web board you care to track is the *only* data of any sort in
>> > existance, and therefore for the moment it's the best available data.
Doug Freyburger - 29 Jan 2004 14:21 GMT
>  I suggest you review  the Atkins Fat Fast

Good topic.  Let's do that.

Dr A used very poor wording in his books.  He used "loss" and "ketosis"
interchangibly as if they mean the exact same thing.  They don't mean
the exact same thing.  But his process started using ketosis as its
lynchpin in the 1972 edition, he always insisted that the time scale
for "loss" was month to month based on his formal definition of a
stall as 4+ weeks and so on.  So it's reason to take any occurance of
the word "loss" in his books and infer that in the language most use
where loss refers the a new low in a 1-week time frame, you should
really read it as "ketosis".

The fat fast appears in the 1993 and 1999 editions but not in the 2002
edition.  Sometimes he dropped topics from the book just to make room
for new material and sometimes he dropped topics because he learned
they didn't help.  We can't infer simply from it being missing in 2002
that the fat fast was bad, so we need to dig deeper.

In the 1993 and 1999 editions, the fat fast is exclusively to deal with
folks who can't get into ketosis at 20 grams per day.  A very small
fraction of the population has a CCLL of 20 or below, under 1%.  The
fat fast is explicitly for those.  Note the discussion of wording above.

But folks rarely look at what Dr A is attempting to mean when they read
his wording.  They tend to take it as gospel.  As a result you'll see a
constant stream of postings urging folks to try the fat fast.  Any time
someone at 20 stalls, you can reasonably expect at least one such post.
But when you examine the entire list of editions, and when you understand
Dr A's poor writing skills, and you reason it out that he must be refering
to ketosis, using the fat fast to deal with a stall at 20 stops being
what he actually suggested.  This gives a good hint why it was removed
from the 2002 edition.  It is abused far more often than it is properly
used.

Then look at the science underneath the issue.  Three or more weeks at a
low enough carb intake level and T3 hormone levels drop and the BMR falls
with it.  The extra-low carb level is the *cause* of the stall, so
treating the stall with even lower carb levels only exasperates that
situation.  Basic science that Dr A may never have learned since the
studies measuring T3 levels are quite recent.  Basic science that tells
that less is not more no matter how obvious is sounds.  This is a
"explain the event by identifying the cause" argument, one of the best
types available to science and logic.

Overall conclusion - The fat fast only applies in specific circumstances
that rarely apply.  Hence under normal circumstances the Atkins process
never puts anyone below 20 grams per day.  For anyone who ever got into
ketosis at 20 grams, the fat fast is never for them and always an abuse.
(Even though it's technically an abuse it sometimes works fine to bust
a stall.  Shrug.)  The only people the fat fast ever applies to are the
few who never get into ketosis at 20.  For those few their premaintenance
phase is at 20 and their OWL phase is at 15.

Under normal circumstances the Atkins process never puts anyone below 20
for any length of time, so the fat fast isn't a part of the normal Atkins
process.  It is a special purpose debugging detail like the reversal diet.

Taking a survey of popular plans: Atkins, Eades, Heller, Atgaston, not a
single one ever puts anyone under 20 under normal circumstances.  Most
never put anyone even as low as 20, ever.  All have a standard sequence
that has most people well over 20 nearly the entire time spent on that
plan.  Folks, these doctors spent many years developing their plans.  If
going to less and less carbs worked better and better, every single one
of them would do that.  After all, driving carb intake lower and lower is
obvious, so it's clearly something every single one of them tried at some
point.  The fact that every single one of their plans avoids heading
towards zero means heading towards zero doesn't work as well as heading
higher.  They tried the obvious and discovered that the un-obvious works
better.  This is an "argument by appeal to authority".
Doug Freyburger - 26 Jan 2004 23:04 GMT
> I guess perhaps Atkins would
> class this as still induction phase, yes?

No.  Induction is something quite specific.  You can't do it by
randomly guessing what it might be.  What you are doing is fine,
and it is working great, but it is not Induction.  Induction is
not necessary as you have found, so don't worry.  But also don't
claim you're on Induction unless you learn what it entails.  Given
how well you're doing, the extra reading is optional for you.

> Why does Atkins recommend increasing carb
> intake after the induction phase?

Because it works better.  Pretty simple that.  In fact every
popular low carb plan in print does the same thing for the same
reason.  Because it works better for most people most of the
time.

It is *so* obvious that if cutting back on carbs works, then cutting
back *more* should work better.  But then again it's obvious that
cutting fat should work, too.  The problem is "obvious" does not
imply "true".  Truth is determined by experimental results, and
truth is not always obvious.  Every popular low carb plan has folks
at higher levels later because the experimental results show it works
better that way.
DJ Delorie - 23 Jan 2004 18:43 GMT
My opinions follow...

> 1) Why does Atkins recomment a two-week induction period, when it only
> takes about three days to initially get into ketosis?

Some people take longer, and there's other things going on besides
ketosis that you want to flush out of your system before adding carbs.
Part of it is psychological, too, and habits take more than a few days
to break.

> 2) I've heard a couple of people say that regards aerobic exercise, it
> is after 30 minutes that the body really starts to burn body fat. Is
> this also true for poeple on a ketogenic diet?

Not sure.  After being LC for a while, your muscles become better at
burning fats for energy, I'd assume things would move along faster.
But the net caloric change should stay the same, for the same workout.

> 3) I've heard body-building eperts say that after 40 minutes of a man
> working out, his body starts making estrogen, which causes the body to
> start using muscle as a fuel source. Is this true for men doing
> aerobic workouts?

Depends.  I think those sorts of physiological changes are more
pronounced for harder workouts, and most people agree that you should
eat some carb+protein snack post-workout to avoid breaking down muscle
proteins (to repair other muscles), so it could be.

> 4) 60% of my max heart rate is 128 bpm. What is the optimum heart rate
> for me to work out at for fat-burning purposes?

More.  "Max fat loss" is different than "max fat burned".  The math
shows that a cardio workout results in more fat lost in the long run
than a "fat-burning" workout, because even if you burn carbs during
cardio, the body makes up for it elsewhere by using fat stores.  You
want to burn the most calories per hour to make the most of your
workout time.

> 5) I started a ketogenic diet plus a daily aerobic workout exactly two
> weks ago, weighing 207 lbs. I have lost eleven pounds in tis two
> weeks. Is this good going?

The first two weeks don't count (except to make you feel better) as
you often lose water weight at first.  Around week 3-4 you stall, then
you start losing again - and this time it's fat you lose.  1-2
lbs/week is normal, although some folks can lose more.

The initial water weight does, however, show that you've used up your
glycogen stores and thus are LCing correctly :-)

> 6) Is there any health reason why one should limit the amount of
> weight one loses per week, provided one is not feeling exhausted or
> run-down?

The primary concerns are that you need to eat sufficient food to (1)
keep your body from slowing its metabolism, antibody production, CNS
response time, core temperature, etc; and (2) obtain a wide range and
sufficient quantity of micronutrients that aren't always found in
multivitamins.

Also, the slower you take it off, the easier it stays off, and the
more time your body has to adjust to the new weight, such as skin
elasticity.
Frank - 23 Jan 2004 19:08 GMT
>>My opinions follow...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>>more time your body has to adjust to the new weight, such as skin
>>elasticity.

That's all very helpful - thank you! You've answered everything, so no
further comments! :-)

Frank
Doug Freyburger - 23 Jan 2004 21:46 GMT
> 1) Why does Atkins recomment a two-week induction period, when it only
> takes about three days to initially get into ketosis?

Because ketosis is only half of the process, and because getting into
ketosis is under half of the carb-driven half.

Half of Atkins is discovering food addictions and intolerances.  It
starts by a detox period during Induction.  The two weeks is how long
allergy symptoms can take to go away.  In my case, my chain saw snoring
turned off like a switch was flipped about the last day of Induction.
Several months later I discovered the chainsaw snoring could be
triggered by eating wheat.  It had taken two weeks to detox off the
fact that I'd eaten wheat every day of my life before I started Atkins.
And sure enough Induction lasts two weeks.

The initial getting into ketosis typically takes 1-4 days, but every so
often Dr A claimed someone took as long as two weeks.  Yet another
tie-in.

Consider all of the standard events of week 3 that happen whether you
follow the core Atkins process and move on the OWL on day 15 of if
you extend Induction.  The sticks head towards trace in week 3.  Around
80% of folks pause for week 3.  Studies of low carbers show that T3
thyroid levels hold steady for two weeks then drop in week 3.  More and
more dominoes lined up at that week 3 target.

> 2) I've heard a couple of people say that regards aerobic exercise, it
> is after 30 minutes that the body really starts to burn body fat. Is
> this also true for poeple on a ketogenic diet?

If you run completely out of stored carbs you hit the wall.  That's why
folks are supposed to take it easy during Induction.  Adjusting long
term so the wall doesn't happen takes as long as a month.

> 3) I've heard body-building eperts say that after 40 minutes of a man
> working out, his body starts making estrogen, which causes the body to
> start using muscle as a fuel source. Is this true for men doing
> aerobic workouts?

I guess.  So don't do that then.

> 4) 60% of my max heart rate is 128 bpm. What is the optimum heart rate
> for me to work out at for fat-burning purposes?

You mean *after* you've taken it easy for the first month like you're
supposed to, right?  It's the same after that.

> 5) I started a ketogenic diet plus a daily aerobic workout exactly two
> weks ago, weighing 207 lbs. I have lost eleven pounds in tis two
> weeks. Is this good going?

Sure.  There is a table in the Atkins book tha tlists expected results
from Induction.  If your copy doesn't have the table, time for the latest
edition.  Doctor Atkins New Diet Revolution, 2002.

> 6) Is there any health reason why one should limit the amount of
> weight one loses per week, provided one is not feeling exhausted or
> run-down?

Sure.  Faster than some rate your skin can't shrink to fit.  Note that
Induction loss incldes water and fat, after that it is fat only.  No
comparison in rates.  If you're losing more than 2 per week for many
weeks in a row, you will want to pop out of ketosis for a week.  Learn
your CCLL to be able to chose being in our out of ketosis.
Frank - 24 Jan 2004 10:45 GMT
>>Frank wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>>weeks in a row, you will want to pop out of ketosis for a week.  Learn
>>your CCLL to be able to chose being in our out of ketosis.

Thanks for the input. That's inteesting about your snoring. I'm
wondering if I'll enjoy the same improvement. I definitely did have
some allergy-like symptoms (including heavy snoring). and I have
noticed that most alergy symptoms seem to have disappeared already,
(waking up feeling groggy as hell with restricted nasal passages,
etc..)

Frank
Doug Freyburger - 26 Jan 2004 15:03 GMT
> >>Half of Atkins is discovering food addictions and intolerances.  It
> >>starts by a detox period during Induction.  The two weeks is how long
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> (waking up feeling groggy as hell with restricted nasal passages,
> etc..)

Next comes solving the puzzle of *what* caused the allergy symptoms in
the first place.  Induction removes a *lot* of suspect foods all at once.
That's why OWL is a slow and steady process of experimentation.  Use the
carb ladder to decide what order to add foods back in.  The carb ladder's
order is based on chances of allergies as much as it is based on carb
count and glycemic index.  One day you'll add a food in and bingo, some
symptoms will be back.  There's the culprit, or one of the culprits.
 
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