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High protein, not low carbs?

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SLR - 24 Jan 2004 12:44 GMT
As I mention in http://atkinsandme.blogspot.com, a recent TV show
makes some interesting points which may be of relevance to us,
LC'ers.

Bearing in mind the following three pillars of Atkins' theory as to how his
diet works:

a. Increased burning of calories, since fat calories require more energy to
    "burn" than do carb calories
b. The ejection of fat calories as ketones in the breathe and urine
c. The increase in satiety through eating more fats

the program cites studies giving evidence for the following:

1. *All three* of the above points are FALSE.  Increased fat
intake does not increase calorie burning; it does not significantly
increase ketone ejection; and not only does it not increase satiety,
it actually makes you hungrier.

But, despite all that:

2. Atkins' does work.  People on low carb diets do lose weight,
and usually more effectively than people on low-cal-via-low-fat
diets

3. The reason Atkins' works is (since it's not any of the three
points above) simply that Atkins' dieters do eat fewer calories,
as a result of experiencing satiety quicker and for longer than
do people on low fat diets

However - and here's the clincher:

4. That satiety effect is not due to the high fat content of the Atkins'
diet.
It is the high *protein* content that is doing it.

So, a conclusion could be that Atkins has unknowingly stumbled
on a significant dietary effect - the appetite control effect of
high protein consumption - and mistakenly attributed that effect
to high fats.

For me, the program still left it unclear as to whether the experiments were
conclusive that it was high protein that was the beneficial factor.  They
didn't seem to show evidence that it was not *low* carbohydrate.
It seems to me that the evidence could still support the hypothesis
that too high a level of high GI carbs could have a pseudo-toxic
effect on the body, with one symptom being carb addiction.
Were the high protein eaters experiencing appetite moderation
because they ate protein, or because they *didn't* eat sugar/starch?

I dunno.

One final thought.  There appears to have been a noticeable change in the
nature of criticism levelled at Atkins.  Until recently, the medical
establisment
focused on two points:

a. It doesn't work
b. It contributes to arterio-sclerosis

But the evidence against both of those is mounting.  So now the criticisms
are:

c. It harms your kidneys
d. It can give you brittle bones
and others

I can't comment on the truth in those criticisms, but I think the
"establishment" has to
accept a bit of a dent in its credibility in getting the first criticisms
wrong.

(That said, apparently the Atkins' people also seem to be shifting a little
bit, and
are now conceding that you shouldn't let your low-carbing result in
a dramatic increase in your *saturated* fat intake.)

slr
Mirek Fidler - 24 Jan 2004 13:13 GMT
> As I mention in http://atkinsandme.blogspot.com, a recent TV show

   Just little things from your page to fix :)

3. People on low-carb diets expel no more ketones than people on
low-carb diets
4. People on low-carb diets burn no more calories than people on the
low-carb diets when the same number of calories are consumed

low-carb -> low-fat ....
SLR - 24 Jan 2004 13:22 GMT
Thanks.
Fixed.
slr

> > As I mention in http://atkinsandme.blogspot.com, a recent TV show
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> low-carb -> low-fat ....
Dave Dumanis - 24 Jan 2004 21:38 GMT
Hm--I don't know who they interviewed, but fat sure makes me feel
satisfied. And it definitely doesn't make me hungrier.

Also, I believe I've read something about high-protein, HIGH-carb
diets being harmful to kidneys. So I'd think twice before going that
route.

Dave
Doesn't care why it works, as long as it works

> Thanks.
> Fixed.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> > low-carb -> low-fat ....
SLR - 25 Jan 2004 08:58 GMT
> Hm--I don't know who they interviewed, but fat sure makes me feel
> satisfied. And it definitely doesn't make me hungrier.

What they did was took two groups of people and fed them for a period of
time.  The meals used were identical, except that one group had extra fat
sneaked into it.  They used meals like spaghetti bolognese which made
hiding the fat easy.

They then allowed the groups to eat as much as they wanted - to eat until
satisfied.  And then they measured the amount of food remaining.

The people with the added fat ate more.

One problem I had with the experiment was that the meals also contained
high GI carbs. In the one shown it was spaghetti.  Maybe it was the fact
that
there was extra fat *alongside* those carbs, that produced the overeating
effect.  But that's such an obvious potential flaw (if the experiment was
being used to test Atkins) that I'd hope they'd have covered that point.

slr
Cubit - 24 Jan 2004 20:06 GMT
I don't have access to the British TV show.  However, I think it is fair to
point out that just because a study is the most recent, doesn't make it the
most authoritative.

Time, and corroborative or contradictory studies are needed.

> As I mention in http://atkinsandme.blogspot.com, a recent TV show
> makes some interesting points which may be of relevance to us,
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>
> slr
DJ Delorie - 24 Jan 2004 20:36 GMT
>  a. Increased burning of calories, since fat calories require more energy to
>      "burn" than do carb calories

Nope.  Calorie labels are already adjusted to compensate for the
energy needed to metabolize (that's why protein is 4kcals/g instead of
5).

>  b. The ejection of fat calories as ketones in the breathe and urine

Not after the first few weeks.  Most people note a drastic reduction
in ketones then, and there's some evidence that the bad breath is from
too much protein, not ketosis itself.

>  c. The increase in satiety through eating more fats

Yes!

> 1. *All three* of the above points are FALSE.  Increased fat
> intake does not increase calorie burning; it does not significantly
> increase ketone ejection; and not only does it not increase satiety,
> it actually makes you hungrier.

The last one is wrong.  Fat, protein, and fiber all increase satiety,
especially when taken together.  Protein is the best at this.

> 2. Atkins' does work.  People on low carb diets do lose weight,
> and usually more effectively than people on low-cal-via-low-fat
> diets

Some folks have messed up metabolism.  Switching to a ketogenic
metabolism may be the only way for them to process calories properly.
Most LCers just happen to eat less anyway though.

> 3. The reason Atkins' works is (since it's not any of the three
> points above) simply that Atkins' dieters do eat fewer calories,
> as a result of experiencing satiety quicker and for longer than
> do people on low fat diets

Yup.  So?

> However - and here's the clincher:
>
> 4. That satiety effect is not due to the high fat content of the
> Atkins' diet.  It is the high *protein* content that is doing it.

It's both, and fiber too.

> So, a conclusion could be that Atkins has unknowingly stumbled
> on a significant dietary effect - the appetite control effect of
> high protein consumption - and mistakenly attributed that effect
> to high fats.

Except that anecdotal evidence around here is that we're *not* eating
a high protein diet (20% of calories average, with 75% from fat) and
we're still getting the satiety effects.

> For me, the program still left it unclear as to whether the experiments were
> conclusive that it was high protein that was the beneficial factor.  They
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Were the high protein eaters experiencing appetite moderation
> because they ate protein, or because they *didn't* eat sugar/starch?

A moderate carb diet can offer the same hunger control if you stick to
low GI foods and eat them in combination with protein and fats, like
south beach or protein power.  Also, eating more smaller meals, say
5/day instead of 3/day, helps.

> c. It harms your kidneys

Nope.  Kidney damage happens if all three of these are true: high
carb, high protein, insufficient hydration.  A diet with sufficient
hydration and low carbs won't have the types of kidney problems
they're talking about.  If you *already* have kidney problems, any
type of high protein diet may be a problem.

> d. It can give you brittle bones

Atkins recommends a multi-mineral.  Duh.  LC is a diuretic; if you
don't replenish the minerals your body will leach them out of your
bones if needed.

> (That said, apparently the Atkins' people also seem to be shifting a
> little bit, and are now conceding that you shouldn't let your
> low-carbing result in a dramatic increase in your *saturated* fat
> intake.)

If you actually read the book (except not the recipes and marketing
goo; just the actual plan) there's no real reason to think they pushed
a high sat fat diet.  A lot of the foods are lean meats, fish, and
oily vegetables - all mostly unsaturated.
Roger Zoul - 24 Jan 2004 21:41 GMT
:: "SLR" <slr@emailetc.thisshouldntbehere.co.uk> writes:
:::  a. Increased burning of calories, since fat calories require more
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
:: from
:: too much protein, not ketosis itself.

Where is this evidence?

:::  c. The increase in satiety through eating more fats
::
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
:: a high protein diet (20% of calories average, with 75% from fat) and
:: we're still getting the satiety effects.

We could very well be eating a "higher" protein diet than pre-LC.

::: For me, the program still left it unclear as to whether the
::: experiments were conclusive that it was high protein that was the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
:: a high sat fat diet.  A lot of the foods are lean meats, fish, and
:: oily vegetables - all mostly unsaturated.
DJ Delorie - 24 Jan 2004 22:48 GMT
> :: Not after the first few weeks.  Most people note a drastic
> :: reduction in ketones then, and there's some evidence that the bad
> :: breath is from too much protein, not ketosis itself.
>
> Where is this evidence?

asdlc archives.  All anecdotal, of course.

> :: Except that anecdotal evidence around here is that we're *not* eating
> :: a high protein diet (20% of calories average, with 75% from fat) and
> :: we're still getting the satiety effects.
>
> We could very well be eating a "higher" protein diet than pre-LC.

Higher, yes.  High, no.
lbudney@pobox.com - 24 Jan 2004 22:26 GMT
>>  a. Increased burning of calories, since fat calories require more
>>  energy to "burn" than do carb calories
>
> Nope.  Calorie labels are already adjusted to compensate for the
> energy needed to metabolize (that's why protein is 4kcals/g instead
> of 5).

Reference, please? You are almost certainly wrong on this. The figure
of 4 Kcals/gm is arrived at by calorimetry, not by some complex
biological calculation.

>> 2. Atkins' does work.  People on low carb diets do lose weight, and
>> usually more effectively than people on low-cal-via-low-fat diets
>
> Some folks have messed up metabolism.  Switching to a ketogenic
> metabolism may be the only way for them to process calories
> properly.  Most LCers just happen to eat less anyway though.

Here you contradict your earlier point; namely, you now claim that
"some folks" process calories differently when not in ketosis due to
their "messed up metabolism".

> Except that anecdotal evidence around here is that we're *not*
> eating a high protein diet (20% of calories average, with 75% from
> fat) and we're still getting the satiety effects.

Don't forget that the average American eats GOBS of protein, albeit
packaged along with lots of carbs and lots of fat. If upping fat, or
upping protein, was the magic elixir--the average American is already
doing that. It seems more than probable that it's not just a question
of "more of something" but also "less of something else."

Regards,
Len.
DJ Delorie - 24 Jan 2004 22:53 GMT
> Reference, please? You are almost certainly wrong on this. The figure
> of 4 Kcals/gm is arrived at by calorimetry, not by some complex
> biological calculation.

The problem is, if you use a lab calorimeter, you get 5 kcals/gm.

> >> 2. Atkins' does work.  People on low carb diets do lose weight, and
> >> usually more effectively than people on low-cal-via-low-fat diets
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> "some folks" process calories differently when not in ketosis due to
> their "messed up metabolism".

I meant that their bodies can free up stored calories when needed,
rather than hoarding them and causing the body to reduce calorie usage
elsewhere.  On a short term basis, it means that the food you eat is
more likely to be used to meet the caloric energy needs and less
likely to be stored.

> > Except that anecdotal evidence around here is that we're *not*
> > eating a high protein diet (20% of calories average, with 75% from
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> doing that. It seems more than probable that it's not just a question
> of "more of something" but also "less of something else."

Well, I know I wasn't.  My doctor complained that I wasn't getting
enough protein before I switched to LC.
lbudney@pobox.com - 24 Jan 2004 23:09 GMT
>> Reference, please? You are almost certainly wrong on this. The
>> figure of 4 Kcals/gm is arrived at by calorimetry, not by some
>> complex biological calculation.
>
> The problem is, if you use a lab calorimeter, you get 5 kcals/gm.

I stand corrected, and have now learned about "Atwater factors". Mr.
Atwater did indeed grok around in people's urine and feces, trying to
determine how much energy passed through unobsorbed. Not bad for a
19th-century researcher!

Still, two points remain:

1) Atwater factors are a (presumably good) approximation, but do not
give an accurate measure applicable across all ages, states of health,
and dietary compositions. Since we are still using the multipliers
developed by Atwater in 1899, it would be interesting to know what
further research has been done to replicate his method in specific
cases, such as persons in ketosis and not in ketosis; overweight and
non-overweight persons; etc.

2) Calorimetric energy in food minus energy excreted unobsorbed does
not necessarily equal energy productively expended by the body. In
particular, energy spent in digestion is NOT accounted for by the
Atwater factors, so your claim that it was is DEFINITELY wrong.

Regards,
Len.
DigitalVinyl - 25 Jan 2004 01:16 GMT
>As I mention in http://atkinsandme.blogspot.com, a recent TV show
>makes some interesting points which may be of relevance to us,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> a. Increased burning of calories, since fat calories require more energy to
>     "burn" than do carb calories
I've found something out for myself--and it is something that Atkins
illustrates in the book. FOr me, the calories burned thing simply
doesn't add up. The info out there is either wrong or my body has
suddenly become a marvel of modern science.(!not!)

I weigh myself immediately before bed and immediately upon waking. I
average .5 to .7 lbs lost each 7-9 hour sleep. One day it was even 1
full pound.  Now if we do the math, using all the scientific numbers
that the Medical community lives and dies by...

To lose just .5 pounds (the LOWEST I've lost sleeping) in 8 hours, I
would have to burn 1750 calories (unrefutable scientific fact). That
is an absolute minimum of ~200 calories per hour. A 350 lb person(me)
is supposed to only burn 105 calories per sleeping hour. Why is my
body doing double time? On the night I lost a pound, I was burning 400
cals/per hour, that's more than what I would burn walking a slow pace
of 2 mph for 8 hours!!

The math doesn't add up! SOmething else is going on in the body that
they simply aren't paying attention to. If it is burning off in heat,
it isn't being monitored and studied properly or they simply weren't
following the Atkins diet!

Here's a funny way to look at it...

If I slept all day long, basically waking up and just rolling orver to
go back to sleep for 24 hours, I would have burned 5250 calories -
while unconscious during 24 hours. HOW COULD THAT BE? The say a 340 lb
man needs 3400 calories to maintain his weight if he is normally
inactive (me). That means if I laid in bed and ate 3500 calories a day
(any type of diet) I could loose 1/2 a pound per day. Find me a doctor
who agrees with that prescription!!  OBVIOUSLY that ain't true. So
there is something metabolic going on in my body that is burning
calories FAR faster than exercise can account for and it is a very
significant increase. For me this is proving the "Metabolic advantage"
that Atkins talks about.

If the study didn't detect it, they violated the rules of the diet,
had people who are highly resistant to ketosis or failed to capture
the data correctly.

> b. The ejection of fat calories as ketones in the breathe and urine
While this does naturally occur and always does the amount that are
wasted has never been quantified. Atkins says that some people will
barely ever turn Ketostix purple because the level of ketones wasted
into the urine is very low.
> c. The increase in satiety through eating more fats

>the program cites studies giving evidence for the following:
And there have been studies that show that there are specific fat
receptors in the brain that release substances to decrease appetite.
In the past some of those against Atkins have argue that we don't have
a "sweet tooth for carbs but a fat tooth". Fat make us crave more. So
clearly depending uponwhich study you want to pay attention to almost
anything position can be supported. The specifics of the study are
what matter and most of us wil never see that.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
JC Der Koenig - 25 Jan 2004 03:06 GMT
You don't account for water.

Now try losing some weight (at least a100 pounds) before you count yourself
as an expert.

Signature

JC

Eat less, exercise more.

--

>
> >As I mention in http://atkinsandme.blogspot.com, a recent TV show
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>
> DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
DJ Delorie - 25 Jan 2004 03:07 GMT
> To lose just .5 pounds (the LOWEST I've lost sleeping) in 8 hours, I
> would have to burn 1750 calories (unrefutable scientific fact).

Wrong.

To lose 0.5 lbs in 8 hours, all you have to do is breath out and/or
perspire 0.5 lbs of water vapor and carbon dioxide.  The body is quite
capable of storing the by-products of metabolism (especially water)
until it can be expelled.

Consider this.  You could lose 0.5 lbs just by going to the bathroom,
which takes (oh, let's say) 1 minute.  Are you really burning 105,000
calories per hour then?  No, of course not.
DigitalVinyl - 25 Jan 2004 04:22 GMT
>> To lose just .5 pounds (the LOWEST I've lost sleeping) in 8 hours, I
>> would have to burn 1750 calories (unrefutable scientific fact).
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>capable of storing the by-products of metabolism (especially water)
>until it can be expelled.
EXCELLENT POINT!  I didn't think of water vapor from breath. And since
you are merely converting water vapor, no callories are affected.
Perspiring isn't much an issue I like the room cool and it is 20
degrees out at night this week. I can believe a cup of moisture is
breathed out and through moisture evaporation of the skin.

I tried to find some reference on the water vapor in our breaths and
one of them was entertaining...

http://www.rwc.uc.edu/koehler/biophys.2ed/heat.html
This site quotes 1 litre sweated/evaporated per hour. 4 litres per
hour when exercising. Now, how is my body generating 24 litres or more
of water vapor a day? That's twelve 2-litre bottles soda bottles of
liquid! There's no way any of us are taking in anywhere near that much
through food and liquid consumption. We would be dehydrated into 6
inch prunes in days.

I really wonder about people who do these equations. Don't they
recognize that common sense says that calculation MUST be wrong.

A medical equipment site had number which I can't make work.
http://www.optovent.se/about_optovent/technology.asp

Average breath for 70kg human = 600 ml (tidal volume)
14 breaths per minute
average household air contain 0.5% water vapor, exhaled air 6.2% (net
5.7% added by body)

If I take 600*5.7% you get 34.2 ml (I think this is the flawed calc,
but can't figure out why. 5.7% of volume, density, weight???)
Times 14 per minute and 60 minutes per hour and you get 28.728 litres
per hour of moisture breathed out. NO WAY THAT"s RIGHT.

>Consider this.  You could lose 0.5 lbs just by going to the bathroom,
>which takes (oh, let's say) 1 minute.  Are you really burning 105,000
>calories per hour then?  No, of course not.
Well AFTER I weigh myself coming out of bed I typically pee 1 to 2.5
pounds of liquid waste and up to a pound of solid. So water waste from
my body far exceed a mere 1 cup (0.5 lbs).
DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
DigitalVinyl - 25 Jan 2004 04:37 GMT
>>> To lose just .5 pounds (the LOWEST I've lost sleeping) in 8 hours, I
>>> would have to burn 1750 calories (unrefutable scientific fact).
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>through food and liquid consumption. We would be dehydrated into 6
>inch prunes in days.

When I thought about it long enough figured out my mistake. 6 litres
of water vapour not water in liquid form. Have to know what volume of
water vapour equals water in liquid form to figure it out.  Stupid
mistake- maybe my brain isn't getting enough food...

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
LCer09 - 26 Jan 2004 22:55 GMT
>I weigh myself immediately before bed and immediately upon waking. I
>average .5 to .7 lbs lost each 7-9 hour sleep. One day it was even 1
>full pound.  Now if we do the math, using all the scientific numbers
>that the Medical community lives and dies by...

That's it? I've weighed 3-4lbs less in the morning than I did 7 hours before.

LCing since 12/01/03-
Me- 265/234/140
& hubby- 310/262/180
jamie - 27 Jan 2004 16:01 GMT
> I weigh myself immediately before bed and immediately upon waking. I
> average .5 to .7 lbs lost each 7-9 hour sleep. One day it was even 1
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> To lose just .5 pounds (the LOWEST I've lost sleeping) in 8 hours, I
> would have to burn 1750 calories (unrefutable scientific fact). That

Uh, weighing before bed and immediately on waking, you are weighing
mainly the water lost as you breathe in your sleep, not caloric burn.

Signature

 jamie  (jamiemck@newsguy.com)

         "There's a seeker born every minute."

>rosie< - 27 Jan 2004 17:51 GMT
> Uh, weighing before bed and immediately on waking, you are weighing
> mainly the water lost as you breathe in your sleep, not caloric burn.

oh, there you go again, introducing facts!
;)
 
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