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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / January 2004

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Garlic question about induction.

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Hanging Chad - 29 Jan 2004 15:13 GMT
Hi,

Day 4 of Induction. I think I'm over the worst of the withdrawls. Had no
energy yesterday but today I feel like getting out. Managed a half hour of
walking yesterday but it was like pulling lead uphill.

Anyway, I got curious about fat percentages today so I typed my breakfast
into fitday and was shocked to find that it had 12 carbs in it.
Some of this was expected as I had some onion and my 4oz of organ meats
(chicken liver) but I was surprised that it listed 3 cloves of garlic as 3
carbs.
My reading was that garlic was on the all you want list, but in looking at
it again it might be talking about ground garlic as a seasoning.
Can anyone shed some light on this, as I do love my garlic?

I suppose I shouldn't worry as everything seems to be going great - 3 pounds
in 3 days - but I want to do this correctly this time.

--
..???)) -:?:-
 ?..?  ..???))
((??..? ...? GARTH -:?:-
-:?:- ((??..?*

257/254/200
DigitalVinyl - 29 Jan 2004 17:39 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>into fitday and was shocked to find that it had 12 carbs in it.
>Some of this was expected as I had some onion and my 4oz of organ meats
I'm pretty sure there was some mention in the book about organ meats.
I actually thought they were banned or limited in the diet. I can't
find it now. I'm positive I read a footnote about organ meats.

>(chicken liver) but I was surprised that it listed 3 cloves of garlic as 3
>carbs.
>My reading was that garlic was on the all you want list, but in looking at
It is part of Induction but *NOT* a free food. I find Atkin's lists to
be part of the problem since both cheese and eggs (*free*) have some
carbs in them. Eating lots of either is going to add up. (A Borden's
slice of American Cheese is 2g!!)   To me, meat fish poultry are the
truly FREE products. Everything else you need to check the label.

>it again it might be talking about ground garlic as a seasoning.
>Can anyone shed some light on this, as I do love my garlic?

Many ground spices ALSO have carbs, more than some might think.
------------------------TOTAL---FIBER---NET
Celery salt; 1 tsp          1.07    0.24    0.83
Chili Powder; 1 tsp         1.4     0.9     0.5
Cloves, ground; 1 tsp       2       0.72    1.28
Coriander, seed; 1 tsp      1.74    0.75    0.99
Cumin; 1 tsp               0.8     0.7     0.1
Garlic, powder; 1 tsp       2.32    0.28    2.04
Garlic; 1 each             1.0     0.1     0.9
Ginger, ground; 1 tsp       1.495    0.225    1.27
Nutmeg, ground; 1 tsp       1.53    0.46    1.08
Onion, Powder; 1 tsp         2.08    0.14    1.94
Paprika; 1 tsp              1.96    0.79    1.17
Pepper; 1 tsp               1.94    0.58    1.36
Salt; 1 tsp                  0.0     0.0     0.0
Thyme, dried; 1 tsp         1.42    0.52    0.90
Turmeric, ground; 1 tsp      1.88    0.46    1.428

>I suppose I shouldn't worry as everything seems to be going great - 3 pounds
>in 3 days - but I want to do this correctly this time.
Counting carbs daily will remind you where your carbs are coming from.
DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
Hanging Chad - 29 Jan 2004 18:08 GMT
> Many ground spices ALSO have carbs, more than some might think.
> ------------------------TOTAL---FIBER---NET
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Counting carbs daily will remind you where your carbs are coming from.
> DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

Thanks, I will be doing that for a while.

Garth
Tracey - 29 Jan 2004 18:58 GMT
(A Borden's
> slice of American Cheese is 2g!!)

Thats because Atkins always says "HARD CHEESE" which means something like
Cheddar.  Bordens sliced American cheese barely qualifies as cheese...read
the ingredients its probably almost all some sort of oil and has sugar in
it.
DigitalVinyl - 29 Jan 2004 19:37 GMT
> (A Borden's
>> slice of American Cheese is 2g!!)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>the ingredients its probably almost all some sort of oil and has sugar in
>it.

Actually in the book it says

Aged and fresh ( i dunno does this mean hard? Is the reader supposed
to know that? Then soft cheeses like Brie are bad? )
Cow and goat
cream cheese
cottage cheese
swiss
cheddar
mozzarella
in fact, almost* all cheeses

in the footnote:
* All cheeses have some carb content and quantities are governed by
that. No diet cheese, cheese spreads, or whey cheeses.

In another footnote in the book he states Yogurt is not allowed but
sour cream is. NOt knowing what the hell the technical difference
between cottage cheese, ricotta, sour cream, cream cheese & yogurt
these rules don't mean much. I consider cottage cheese & yogurt to be
typical diet fare. Atkins says the first is good, later bad. Imitation
cheese are not allowed but soy cheese is. The logic is missing for me
unless I screw the list and just read the labels all the time.

I really wish Atkins had let someone else rewrite his book. It just
isn't that straightforward in getting information from.
DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
Hanging Chad - 29 Jan 2004 19:58 GMT
> > (A Borden's
> >> slice of American Cheese is 2g!!)
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> these rules don't mean much. I consider cottage cheese & yogurt to be
> typical diet fare. Atkins says the first is good, later bad.

As a diabetic I can tell you that cottage cheese is low in sugar, while
yogurt (even "sugar free") is loaded with sugar (usually 15g for "sugar
free", 30g+ for regular) so from that prospective it makes perfect sense.
All of induction seems to be geared to keeping the carb count under 20g and
loading the foods toward those that metabolize slower.
Doug Freyburger - 30 Jan 2004 15:21 GMT
> > Thats because Atkins always says "HARD CHEESE" which means
> > something like Cheddar.
>
> Actually in the book it says
> Aged and fresh ( i dunno does this mean hard? Is the reader supposed
> to know that? Then soft cheeses like Brie are bad? )

Aged and fresh is one category.  Fresh cheeses are like cream cheese,
cottage cheese and so on.  Almost all varieties of cheese are aged.
To tell the difference, you have to know a little about how the cheese
is made.  If you've ever gone on a tour of a cheese making factory,
they mention that such-and-such a cheese is pressed from the curds
and then sent to a warehouse to age.  Bingo, such-and-such a cheese
is in the aged category.  Much of the time fresh cheeses are made by
the same companies that sell cream, sour cream and ice cream because
fresh cheeses don't need a warehouse for aging.

Once you know how a cheese is made, it's easy to tell a fresh cheese
from an aged cheese, but who knows how any one type of cheese is
made unless you remember a factory tour, work in the diary industry,
are a member of a gourmand club, etc.  I like factory tours, have
relatives in dairy farming, and have been a member of a gourmand club
in the 1980s, and I still don't know all fresh cheeses from all aged
ones.

Here's the Atkins issue: Aging consumes carbs, so aged cheese maxs
out at 1.0 per ounce and goes as low as 0.1 per ounce.  Fresh does
not have a chance to consume carbs, so fresh cheese can be milk that
has had the water drained out of it with a side effect of concentrating
the natural milk sugar.  "American process cheese" is the exception
that proves the rule here, it can be as high as 3.0 per slice.  Must
not be aged much.

Degree of hardness is another category.  Degree of hardness *only*
applies to aged cheeses.  They range is soft, semi-soft, semi-hard
and hard.  Sometimes there are more gradations, sometimes less.  It
mostly depends on what types of aged cheeses a company produces.

Once you know if a cheese is aged, and when in doubt figure it's
fresh, but at least anything with the word aged on the label works,
then it's time to figure out where it is in the hardness spectrum.

Here's the Atkins issue: Aging hardens the cheese in addition to
consuming the carbs.  You can figure out the hardness of a cheese
by squeezing it.  Easy to squeeze with your fingers, soft, assume
it is maxed out at 1.0 per ounce.  Pleasantly soft but it takes a
knife to slice like cheddar, assume semi-soft and maxed at 1.0 per
ounce.  Aged cheddars may well be lower but I'd have to look that
up because it isn't something I can get from this principle.  If
it can be easily sliced with a knife, like swizz, it's semi-soft
and you know it's under 1.0 per ounce but need to look it up to
find out how much less.  If it needs to be grated because it's too
hard to slice with a knife, then it counts as a hard cheese, and
you can expect it to be far below 1.0 per ounce.  The best real
Parmagiano Regianno that's rock hard is only 0.1 per ounce, and
delicious, and expensive.

> Cow and goat

What animal it comes from is yet another category.  Either fresh or
aged cheeses can be made from milk, and milk can come from: cows,
sheep, goats, water buffalo (the finest mozzarella) and for all I
know every other sort of milk-giving herb animal ever domesticated.
The fact that I've never seen camel or llama milk cheese doesn't
mean it can't be found somewhere in the world.  But is it one or
two hump camel cheese?  Heck for all I know some farmer in Finland
has figured out how to make cheese from reindeer milk and someone
in Alaska has figured out how to strap a muskox down long enough to
get milk from it (they are usually grown for their superior fur and
the wool) and make muskox cheese.

> cream cheese
> cottage cheese
> swiss
> cheddar
> mozzarella
> in fact, almost* all cheeses

See that's a mix of 3 fresh ones (cream, cottage, mozz), a semi-hard
(swiss) and a semi-soft (cheddar).

> in the footnote:
> * All cheeses have some carb content and quantities are governed by
> that. No diet cheese, cheese spreads, or whey cheeses.

Right, and if it says zero it's rounded down from 0.5 per serving.

> In another footnote in the book he states Yogurt is not allowed but
> sour cream is. NOt knowing what the hell the technical difference
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> cheese are not allowed but soy cheese is. The logic is missing for me
> unless I screw the list and just read the labels all the time.

Or unless you know how the product is made and what it is made from.

Heavy cream is allowed, sour cream is made by putting enymes into
heavy cream to thicken it, so sour cream can be treated like heavy
cream.  One you know how it's made and what from.

Yogurt is made from fresh milks or cream or skim milk.  It's fermented
with a different bacteria than cheese.  The yogurt bacteria eats fat
rather than sugar, so yogurt keeps its milk carbs.  And that's certain
to be an over-simplification, too.  But that's why yogurt doesn't
appear in lists early on, even in addition to the fact that fruited
yogurt has a ton of added sugar most of the time.  On the other hand,
yogurt bacteria is one of the beneficial types in our intestine, so
yogurt is very healthy in its own right.  But it sure makes me wonder
how anyone first got intestinal bacteria into milk and then ate the
sludge it turned into ...

> I really wish Atkins had let someone else rewrite his book. It just
> isn't that straightforward in getting information from.

Dr A's medical skills did not extend to writing.  A shame.  All manner
of misunderstandings come from that fact.  Everything from stressed
dark tests on the sticks to using weekly loss rates to determine CCLL
on are all problems created by his terrible wording choices.
DigitalVinyl - 30 Jan 2004 22:36 GMT
Excellent coverage of dairy sources for cheeses. Your knowledge is
almost... too much. I agree it makes sense when you know the process
but so few of us do that it is better to pay attention to the labels
and ignore the lists. At least easier for me!

Thanks

>> > Thats because Atkins always says "HARD CHEESE" which means
>> > something like Cheddar.
[quoted text clipped - 115 lines]
>dark tests on the sticks to using weekly loss rates to determine CCLL
>on are all problems created by his terrible wording choices.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
Doug Freyburger - 29 Jan 2004 22:36 GMT
> I was surprised that it listed 3 cloves of garlic as 3 carbs.

Lots of stuff comes as a surprise when you first look it up.
Then you know a bunch of counts off the top of your head and
don't need to look things up after a while.

> My reading was that garlic was on the all you want list

There's no such thing as a "all you want" list.  In the new
version of the book it's called an "allowed" list.  In the
older versions it was called a "free" list.  But free *always*
meant - feel free to eat some of this stuff.  Free as in
everything not on the list is forbidden, not free as in
unlimited.
ASchamisso - 30 Jan 2004 00:02 GMT
Hanging Chad wrote:

> I was surprised that it listed 3 cloves of garlic as 3 carbs.

Lots of stuff comes as a surprise when you first look it up.
Then you know a bunch of counts off the top of your head and
don't need to look things up after a while.

> My reading was that garlic was on the all you want list

There's no such thing as a "all you want" list.  In the new
version of the book it's called an "allowed" list.  In the
older versions it was called a "free" list.  But free *always*
meant - feel free to eat some of this stuff.  Free as in
everything not on the list is forbidden, not free as in
unlimited.

"Free" used to mean "Eat as much as you want"--I'm going back to 1997 or so.
Believe me, I went to the center and they said that to my face.
Lee Rodgers - 30 Jan 2004 22:21 GMT
Garlic is so good and good for you that it is well worth the teenie
amount of carbs involved.  Eat plenty of garlic.  Just remember that
there is no such thing as a "FREE" food.  It all counts. HTH
Lee Rodgers
Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org
Mesage Board http://lowcarb.org/forums
Low-Carb Connoisseur puts the dash in low-carb
http://www.low-carb.com
 
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