Aren't you the one that doesn't even know what butter is?

It's about both....you control carbs...that allows you to get stable blood
sugar...that allows you to eat less, hence consume fewer calories.  However,
since the diet can be very high in fat, some people (most times people who
aren't that fat to begin with) simply continue to eat too much and thus
don't lose weight or lose it very slowly.

So you admit to being a troll?

It _does_ say in the book, in several places, that calories do still count -
that a LC WOE isn't a license to gluttony.  If you're consuming 3000
kcal/day, you're probably not going to lose weight unless you're doing heavy
exercise too.  And while Atkins doesn't say 'count calories', he does say
they still count - so if you don't ever count them, how do you know how many
you're getting?

The reason he doesn't make much issue about counting calories is that it's
usually pretty easy to stay low on them while staying low-carb.  But it
isn't impossible to overconsume calories while still staying under your carb
limit.  For example, one T-Bone steak has 630 kcal if you don't trim the fat
(according to FitDay) - eat a couple of those a day along with several
snacks and another regular meal, and you could easily be under 20g carbs but
over 2500 kcal.  That's the reason why people here advocate to count your
calories for a while and see what you're actually getting.  Counting can
reveal the opposite as well - too few calories can also cause you to stall.

Like I told you earlier, Scott - the book isn't the Holy Writ.  It's a
guideline, nothing more.  You will find that some of the things in the book
work well for some and not at all for others.  You'll also find that people
can follow an LC lifestyle (like South Beach) that flouts several of Atkins'
precepts and they can still lose weight.

What's much more important than following the book to the letter is
understanding what the book is trying to convey and what it's teaching you
about how your own body works.  The point is breaking you out of the 'fat
makes you fat' mold that most of us grew up hearing and believing.  Past
that, you often have to tinker with the book's advice to find out what works
_for you_.  Even Atkins did this - there wouldn't be so many different
'editions' of his book if he hadn't been willing to adjust his thinking and
his plan to what worked for the majority.  I would suspect that had he not
passed away, we'd be seeing another edition or two in the next few years,
addressing some of the same things that this NG addresses daily.

If it bothers you that people give advice here that seems counterintuitive
to the book, then I don't know what to tell you.  Firstly this isn't an
Atkins-only group, it's a generic LC NG.  Secondly, people are giving the
advice that worked for them in the past, and there are people here who have
been LC'ing for years.  We aren't all cut out of the same mold, and there is
not a 'one size fits all' plan that will work exactly the same way for every
single person.  With any newsgroup, you take the advice for what it's worth
to you.  If you feel it doesn't apply to you, then by all means don't apply
it.  If you feel it goes against what you know, then listen and learn, and
make your own decision about which is right, especially as it applies to
you.

And if people speaking bluntly bothers you, then Usenet is probably not the
right place for you.  It's been around longer than the WWW (as we know it
today) has, it's always been this way, and it isn't going to change (nor do
I think it needs to).  What you need to realize is that nobody 'owns'
Usenet, like a person can 'own' a message board.  I actually do understand
what you're saying about expecting it to be like a message board, but by now
I hope you realize that it's nothing like one and never will be.  I'm an
admin on a large message board myself, and what's funny is that people there
complain about the moderation sometimes as much as you're complaining about
the lack of it here.  I tell them that if they want no moderation, go to
Usenet.  If you want moderation, find a message board.  One isn't any
'better' than the other as far as quality of advice you can expect to find,
they're just different in approach.  Each fills its niche nicely.
Complaining about the lack in either one is about like complaining that
there aren't any Broadway plays out in the country, or complaining that
there's no wide-open spaces in the city.  You have to understand that there
is positive and negative in whatever environment you choose to inhabit, and
if the negative outweighs the positive for you then it's time to change
environment.

Stargazer
Atkins since Apr '03
192/149/140

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, it was written:

Well, troll or not, as I understand it you're not exactly a long term low
carber. Nor have you created the impression that you're  particularly
knowledgeable about, oh, well, food for starters.

The people who are saying that calories count (although not everyone has
to count them) are for the most part people who have been following this
way of eating for years and have lost significant amounts of weight doing
it. They speak from the standpoint of not only having read about this
program, but also practical experience.

You do know the difference between theory and practice, don't you?

In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in
practice there is.

Martha

Good job!

How much weight did those people have to lose? I don't think I have
seen many people here who have lost that fast. I count myself as
losing quite fast, and I am losing a steady two pounds a week.

Ina

213/155/150
since 8/15/03, 5'8"
www.skreee.de

Sseaott, if you head on over to
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/dietpage.htm you can see the data
set Jenny used and her analysis of it.  How carefully did you monitor your
"about 40 people?"  Did you compute the average or guess it based upon their
anecdotal descriptions to you?  Jenny's data set is not a scientific
sampling, but I think it provides a better estimate of what really happens
in the middle stages of dieting than water-cooler chitchat does.

carla

To lose 4 pounds per week you have to maintain a calorie deficit of 2000
calories per day.

Hard to do that and still eat a healthy amount.

What was the starting weight of the people in your group of friends.  The
stats I pointed to broke down weight loss by time on the diet and starting
weight at beginning of the month.  The original poster weighed around  150
lbs. At that weight level it is much harder to lose a pound than it is at
200 lbs or more.

-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

Since you are relatively close to goal, as I am, we both should probably be
using low-carb as a tool to eat lower calorie.  For really heavy people, it
is much easier to lose at the beginning because they often just naturally
get to a low enough calorie level with low-carb because the foods are so
much more filling, and because the heavier you are the more calories your
body needs and uses.  I would suggest tracking calories and carbs with a
program such as fitday.com (it's free!) And, of course, add an exercise
program if you haven't already.  You'll get there!  The last 10 or 20
pounds are the most stubborn, but you can beat them!

This is why you *must* move on to the later phases of whichever plan
you have selected.  Play an all-or-nothing game and you generally
end up with nothing.  Move on toe the easier later less restrictive
phases were it isn't all-or-nothing any more.  Move on to lower risk
of falling off.

Excellent.