Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsGeneral TopicsLow CarbWeightWatchers
WeightAdviser.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / March 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Is it a Choice?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Martha Gallagher - 08 Mar 2004 22:16 GMT
How's that for a provocative title?

Now drag your brains back to lowcarbing. <g>

I chronicled my adventures in off plan eating last week. For those of you
who missed it - I scheduled an off plan day in order to kick my metabolism
into gear. Whether it worked or not I don't know - I only show weight loss
once a month, but I have dropped most of the temporary water weight so I'm
not appreciably higher than I should be.

But, what was weird about the day was that I deliberately choose foods
that should have been satisfying so that I would forestall the mindless
grazing that I tend to do when I have an off plan day. Despite that, I ate
things that I normally would have said were simply not worth eating
(including a roll that I swear was a factory reject from the Wonder Bread
company).

My perception was that the carbs somehow disabled my "now you've had
enough switch" and so I just never felt satisfied. But, thinking about it
I wonder if part of it is the fact that, although I hadn't intended to eat
those things, I had given myself permission to eat anything I wanted and
so I did. So it wasn't so much a problem that my accelator got stuck as it
was that I disabled the brakes.

Once the day was over, I had no problem getting right back on plan. I did
look interestedly at non-low carb foods, but I didn't have any real
impulse to eat them.

While I'm curious about the mechanism of this, I'm not sufficiently
interested to schedule another off-plan day. So, I'll ask others here -
this would really only apply to people who have problems with out of
control eating when off low carb - do you find that you can stick to
whatever limits you set yourself, e.g. I'll go offplan for this one day,
one meal,to eat a single serving of this one food, or do you find that
once you stray all bets are off and you seriously overstep the limits you
had set for yourself?

Just curious.

Thanks,
Martha

Signature

Begin where you are - but don't end there.

marengo - 09 Mar 2004 00:34 GMT
| How's that for a provocative title?
|
| Now drag your brains back to lowcarbing. <g>

| While I'm curious about the mechanism of this, I'm not sufficiently
| interested to schedule another off-plan day. So, I'll ask others here -
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
| had set for yourself?
| Martha

Martha,

A little over a year ago, after having wonderful success with mt low-carb ay
of eating, I decided to go off-plan for a holiday meal.  I went with family
to one of those all-you-can-eat buffet restaurants where quanitity of food
definitely takes prececence over quality.  I planned on just sampling a
variety  of things.  Well, it didn't work that way.  Those "samples" turned
into globs, the globs turned into platefuls, and before I knew it I may as
well have strapped on a feedbag.  I figured the next day I would go back to
plan; instead I had unbelievable carb cravings, and went to the grocery
store.  I started in the bakery and worked my way back to the ice cream
section and over to the candy and cookies.

The bottom line -- although I've never discussed this here before -- was
that I was backslidden from my low-carb plan for months on end.  I gained
back much of the weight I had lost.  I really got out of control, then got
depressed and just didn't care.  I stopped posting to ASDLC, but lurked once
in a while to see how my old low-carb friends were doing,  I was too
embarrassed to tell anyone what had happened to me, although I realize now
how foolish this was.  Maybe I could have gotten help sooner in stopping the
rapid downward spiral.So in answer t your question, I for one, cannot go off
plan even for a day.  No way.  No how.  I'm exactly like the alcoholic who
can't have that one drink.  (The only exception I've found is -- and I've
mentioned this in othe posts --  movie popcorn!  I can enjoy it
occassionally; it doesn't set off cravings, and a couple of times it has
actually kick-started my weight loss.)

Then, this past December 15th,  I was diagnosed as T2 diabetic after a
routine physical exam found my fasting BG to be 135 and my Hba1c to be 9;
which is very high.  (I don't want to sound like a broken record;  I
apologize for repeating this so often -- it's just that it was such a major,
life-changing event in my life).  This was the slap upside the head that  I
needed to jolt me out of my apathy (or depression or whatever it was) and
get me back on track.  That was when I re-committed to low-carb as a
lifelong way of eating, and have I ever been faithful to it!  I've hear
people say when they were off plan and then re-started, it was much harder.
Just the opposite for me; it was sooo easy this time!  Maybe because I
already knew what to do, what to eat, etc. without weighing, measuring,
referring to a book to see what I can/can't eat etc.   But I am genuinely
enjoying my foods this time around; I' even taking pleasure in the
preparation.  I see it as a fun challenge to try to maintain my ideal fat to
protein ratios, and to keep my carbs around 5% of my total calories.  In
that 90 days since my diagnosis I've lost nearly 40 pounds (38 to be exact)
, and I feel better than I have in three years!

This year not only was I with family over the Holidays, but I was also on
vacation and ate many meals in restaurants.  What a difference from last
year!  When I got back from vacation I had lost several pounds over that
two-week period!  Absolutely no more off-plan days for me.  This is it --
for life.  (God willing, I guess I ashould add!)

Peter
website:  http://users.thelink.net/marengo
Bear - 09 Mar 2004 01:07 GMT
Hey Peter,
I've got a similar situation coming up in April. I'm taking the seniors on a
trip to Reno. Included in the trip are 2 buffets. Breakfast and dinner. It's
at the Hilton and I hear the food is good as far as those kind of casino
buffets go. I don't think I'll be tempted but I'm already starting to plan
what I'll eat. Roast beef, roast chicken, turkey, veggies. Anyway, thanks
for sharing your story. I'll remember it if I start thinking about sampling
a little of this or that.
Signature

Bear
Grrrrrrrrrrrr  :o)
297/268.5/210
Highest weight   353
http://home.earthlink.net/~polarbear50/index.html

> | How's that for a provocative title?
> |
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> Peter
> website:  http://users.thelink.net/marengo
Cailleachschilde - 09 Mar 2004 03:18 GMT
>Hey Peter,
>I've got a similar situation coming up in April. I'm taking the seniors on a
>trip to Reno. Included in the trip are 2 buffets. Breakfast and dinner. It's
>at the Hilton and I hear the food is good as far as those kind of casino
>buffets go.

I used to work there as a change person/cashier.  We (the employees) were once
treated to breakfast in one of their resturants.  The food was very good.  Of
course, this was 10 years ago.  

Have a good time!  I miss the weather and the neon lights (I'm a human magpie).

Yvonne
Bear - 09 Mar 2004 03:39 GMT
Thanks Yvonne. Looking forward to the time away. Even though its work it
should be fun.I like the lights too. It's a fun place.
Signature

Bear
Grrrrrrrrrrrr  :o)
297/268.5/210
Highest weight   353
http://home.earthlink.net/~polarbear50/index.html

> >Hey Peter,
> >I've got a similar situation coming up in April. I'm taking the seniors on a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Yvonne
marengo - 09 Mar 2004 04:11 GMT
| Hey Peter,
| I've got a similar situation coming up in April. I'm taking the seniors
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| veggies. Anyway, thanks for sharing your story. I'll remember it if I
| start thinking about sampling a little of this or that.

I'm sure you'll have no problem; there will probably be lots you can eat.

What hoot you'll have on that trip.  Taking a bunch of old guys to Reno;
they'll have a blast! :)

Hmmm .. Reno ... isn't that the city that through some sort of
trans-dimentional quantum wormhole or something is actually further west
than Los Angeles?
Signature

Peter
website:  http://users.thelink.net/marengo

diane - 09 Mar 2004 12:13 GMT
Reading posts here of how folks have felt the affects of too many carbs has
so far kept me in line. Being on a vacation is the last place I would want
to feel ill, or drunk after 1 drink, so I'm not going to be tempted-I'd
rather do without.  Sunday it was a pizza party at Uno's. I looked up the
menu on the internet and saw they served steaks, so I picked out dinner
before I even got there.  It ended up being a $18 lunch, but I stayed under
my carb limit.

I will tell you, yesterday I had to go into a real bakery for the first time
since yesterday to order a birthday cake. The aroma of everything was
intense- much more than a supermarket bakery. I just reminded myself that I
didn't need anything there, and that was that. A good reason to never skip
your meals! Avoid being hungry.

I think it is easier to expose myself to these experiences and conquer them
than to avoid them. I then will be desensitized. At work, I'm sorting all
those magazines with yummy food on the covers. At first I had to check out
the recipes, now- they don't even bother me-its just a photograph.

Signature

Diane
Atkins since 12/4/2003
234/209/150   5"8

> Hey Peter,
> I've got a similar situation coming up in April. I'm taking the seniors on a
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> > Peter
> > website:  http://users.thelink.net/marengo
am - 09 Mar 2004 05:48 GMT
> lifelong way of eating, and have I ever been faithful to it!  I've hear
> people say when they were off plan and then re-started, it was much harder.
> Just the opposite for me; it was sooo easy this time!  Maybe because I

I think people find restarting so hard because their body is just as
appalled as it ever was at their impudence in taking aways its carbs, but
their mind is far less psyched than it was the first time, because this is
familiar territory, it's done all this before.

Signature

Alan
(251/209/163)

Sunshyne - 09 Mar 2004 09:56 GMT
I was at a Womens convention, through my Church this past Saturday. It
was located at a nice Hotel. They had a breakfast buffet. I could not
believe the pastry/donut/muffin/bagel supply setup they had. Then also
Belgian Waffles with real whipped cream and fruit.  I skipped all
that, though my mouth was watering for them items. I instead had
scrambled eggs, bacon, fresh fruit. Skipped home frys too. It wasn't
too hard. I had my mind set before going not to eat the items I know I
am not supposed to eat.  While in line for food, another low carber
was beside me. She said she had her mind set not to eat them items
too. But later on, I noticed she started nibbling off a friends plate.
Then went back in line and got some of them high carb items.

I have bought some low carb items in the past, for my kids. Like ice
cream bars. I notice they cannot stop at just one. So I quit buying
them, or I buy just one box and they have it as a treat.
diane - 09 Mar 2004 11:48 GMT
At least you has some choices! We stayed in a Best western and the only
thing on the continental breakfast bar that was low carb was cream cheese,
hard boiled eggs and coffee. I graciously cut up my eggs, put a pat of
butter in it and heated it up for a few seconds in the supplied microwave. A
naked breakfast compared to everyone making their own waffles- but I didn't
really care and ate my little breakfast.

Next table over I spotted another lone egg in a dish eater, another low
carb'er. We shared how much weight we had lost, and nothing else mattered
after that.

Signature

Diane
Atkins since 12/4/2003
234/209/150   5"8

> I was at a Womens convention, through my Church this past Saturday. It
> was located at a nice Hotel. They had a breakfast buffet. I could not
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> cream bars. I notice they cannot stop at just one. So I quit buying
> them, or I buy just one box and they have it as a treat.
JC Der Koenig - 09 Mar 2004 11:53 GMT
Fresh fruit is not low carb.

Signature

Most of us probably aren't in danger of eating too little. :)

Becky P.

> I was at a Womens convention, through my Church this past Saturday. It
> was located at a nice Hotel. They had a breakfast buffet. I could not
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> cream bars. I notice they cannot stop at just one. So I quit buying
> them, or I buy just one box and they have it as a treat.
billydee - 09 Mar 2004 18:36 GMT
> Fresh fruit is not low carb.

though it probably is good for you nevertheless.
JC Der Koenig - 10 Mar 2004 02:44 GMT
Maybe if you're not morbidly obese and/or not really trying to lose weight
the low carb way.

Signature

Most of us probably aren't in danger of eating too little. :)

Becky P.

> > Fresh fruit is not low carb.
>
> though it probably is good for you nevertheless.
Sunshyne - 10 Mar 2004 16:28 GMT
> Maybe if you're not morbidly obese and/or not really trying to lose weight
> the low carb way.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > though it probably is good for you nevertheless.

I am losing weight doing low carb. I am morbidly obese, and so are
others here. You did not succeed again, in causing me to feel shame or
guilt.

Can we not add in fruit, staying in the portion size and daily carb
limits, after induction?
JC Der Koenig - 11 Mar 2004 01:54 GMT
I'll consider your advice to be worth something when you are actually not
morbidly obese. Until then, it's worthless.

Signature

Most of us probably aren't in danger of eating too little. :)

Becky P.

> > Maybe if you're not morbidly obese and/or not really trying to lose weight
> > the low carb way.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Can we not add in fruit, staying in the portion size and daily carb
> limits, after induction?
Sunshyne - 11 Mar 2004 14:07 GMT
> I'll consider your advice to be worth something when you are actually not
> morbidly obese. Until then, it's worthless.

I don't really see how I was giving you advice. I read you so easily.
It does not matter if you find any worth in me. I find worth in
myself. Thats what counts.

Not sure what is considered morbidly obese. I was using a BMI
calculator, and by putting my height and weight in that, it calculates
that I am. Yet, I do not consider myself morbidly obese. I did have
fun and learned something from it. A good weight for me will be 150.
JC Der Koenig - 12 Mar 2004 01:52 GMT
If and when you get to 150, you'll have learned something.

Signature

Most of us probably aren't in danger of eating too little. :)

Becky P.

> > I'll consider your advice to be worth something when you are actually not
> > morbidly obese. Until then, it's worthless.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> that I am. Yet, I do not consider myself morbidly obese. I did have
> fun and learned something from it. A good weight for me will be 150.
Sunshyne - 12 Mar 2004 07:54 GMT
> If and when you get to 150, you'll have learned something.

When I do, I will have learned something. How much weight have you lost?
JC Der Koenig - 12 Mar 2004 11:33 GMT
A couple of hundred pounds.

Signature

Most of us probably aren't in danger of eating too little. :)

Becky P.

> > If and when you get to 150, you'll have learned something.
>
> When I do, I will have learned something. How much weight have you lost?
CarbAddict - 12 Mar 2004 13:51 GMT
>  From: JC Der Koenig (Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:33:34 GMT)
> MsgId: <ieh4c.1740$Iq7.580377724@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>
>
> A couple of hundred pounds.

He says he keeps putting back on and taking off the same pounds --
supposedly as some type of experiment to see if it helps body fat. If so,
he's giving you accumulative totals.
JC Der Koenig - 13 Mar 2004 00:29 GMT
You are correct.

An experiment in body recomposition.

Signature

Most of us probably aren't in danger of eating too little. :)

Becky P.

> >  From: JC Der Koenig (Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:33:34 GMT)
> > MsgId: <ieh4c.1740$Iq7.580377724@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> supposedly as some type of experiment to see if it helps body fat. If so,
> he's giving you accumulative totals.
Tom - 12 Mar 2004 15:26 GMT
> A couple of hundred pounds.

JPEGS!!!!!!!!!
JC Der Koenig - 13 Mar 2004 00:29 GMT
Soon.

Signature

Most of us probably aren't in danger of eating too little. :)

Becky P.

> > A couple of hundred pounds.
>
> JPEGS!!!!!!!!!
Kalish - 13 Mar 2004 03:05 GMT
>A couple of hundred pounds.

You didn't lose it...check between your ears, fathead!
JC Der Koenig - 13 Mar 2004 03:26 GMT
Are you becoming obsessed like katie?

Signature

Most of us probably aren't in danger of eating too little. :)

Becky P.

> >A couple of hundred pounds.
>
> You didn't lose it...check between your ears, fathead!
Tom - 12 Mar 2004 15:24 GMT
> Fresh fruit is not low carb.

depends on the fruit and the amount.....plus the stage of Atkins or
general LC diet plan you are on......get it straight JC!
CarbAddict - 12 Mar 2004 18:48 GMT
>> Fresh fruit is not low carb.

>  From: Tom (12 Mar 2004 07:24:22 -0800)
> MsgId: <7db3bba.0403120724.fc946a@posting.google.com>
>
> depends on the fruit and the amount.....plus the stage of Atkins or
> general LC diet plan you are on......get it straight JC!

I'm trying to get it straight.

Can you tell me which fruits are low carb? Sounds like you're saying that
fruits can be eaten in moderation in certain stages of a low carb diet,
which isn't what JC commented on. He's just saying fruit is, by nature, a
food laden with carbs. For instance, I can have a slice of carrot cake so
small as to make the carbs negligible, but that doesn't make carrot cake a
LC food.
DJ Delorie - 12 Mar 2004 19:04 GMT
> Can you tell me which fruits are low carb?

The Atkins book talks about this (fruits are added on week three).
Berries, for example, are low carb - blueberries are excellent sources
of various micronutrients and antioxidants, too.  Strawberries and
cream is a popular breakfast.

Ok, this has bothered me enough.  I've added a group limit to my
parametric search, so you can now search for LC fruits yourself.  Go
to http://www.delorie.com/health/ns/.  Type in "10" in the max carbs
box, make sure "%wt" is selected, choose the "Fruits and Fruit Juices"
group, and search.  It will give you a list of "low carb" fruits
(assuming you define "low carb" as 10% carbs by weight or less, the
metric Atkins uses for defining "low carb veggies")

For more excitement, try a search for fruits where carbs are 50% or
less of the *calories*.  You get two - avocados and olives.

Raspberries look promising: http://www.delorie.com/health/ns/?fid=09302
CarbAddict - 13 Mar 2004 01:10 GMT
>> CarbAddict <CarbAddict@atkins.invalid> writes:
>>
>> Can you tell me which fruits are low carb?

>  From: DJ Delorie (12 Mar 2004 14:04:26 -0500)
> MsgId: <xnr7vxdgzp.fsf@delorie.com>
>
> The Atkins book talks about this (fruits are added on week three).
> Berries, for example, are low carb - blueberries are excellent sources
> of various micronutrients and antioxidants, too.

OK, I looked at the site.

The lowest for blueberries was 83% crb (9% by weight). By contrast, a
hamburger is 0%. This doesn't mean nobody should eat blueberries on a LC
diet. However, I do think it can be argued they're not a particularly LC
food. I'd have to agree with JC that fruit are not particularly LC, but I
also agree with you they may be allowable. The two statements are not at
cross purposes.

Thanks again for the site.
DJ Delorie - 13 Mar 2004 01:31 GMT
> The lowest for blueberries was 83% crb (9% by weight).

Compare with onions, 81% carbs, 6% by weight.  So?

> By contrast, a hamburger is 0%.

So is water.  Neither is a fruit, though, so neither are suitable
answers to the original question.  Neither have the same
micronutrients as fruits either.

> This doesn't mean nobody should eat blueberries on a LC
> diet. However, I do think it can be argued they're not a
> particularly LC food.

Hence my comment "assuming you define LC as 10% or less carbs by
weight".  I can't help you decide what your criteria are, just what
fits in them.  Atkins has the words "Vegetables of 10% carbohydrate or
less" on the list of induction foods, so it seemed to me that "Fruits
of 10% carbohydrate or less" was a reasonable definition for these
purposes.

> I'd have to agree with JC that fruit are not particularly LC, but I
> also agree with you they may be allowable. The two statements are
> not at cross purposes.

Like I said, you have to decide what "LC" means to you first.  Then
you can decide what foods fit that definition.
jpatti - 13 Mar 2004 12:49 GMT
> > Can you tell me which fruits are low carb?
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> (assuming you define "low carb" as 10% carbs by weight or less, the
> metric Atkins uses for defining "low carb veggies")

You have a lot of useful tools on your site.  I don't know how I never
ran across it before.

The search interface to the USDA database is very cool.

Thanks!
DJ Delorie - 13 Mar 2004 13:39 GMT
> You have a lot of useful tools on your site.  I don't know how I
> never ran across it before.

You can only toot your own horn so much before it becomes annoying.  I
use my own urls for reference in my posts, but I don't "advertise" it
much.

> The search interface to the USDA database is very cool.

Thanks!  I had used the USDA's one for a while and Fitday, but neither
did what *I* wanted.  So, I made my own.
Jenny - 09 Mar 2004 14:38 GMT
Peter (and others),

That revived carb craving that follows a change of diet is a direct result
of the way blood sugar works  because your body pumps out the amount of
insulin for the current meal based on what you ate for the previous meal. A
big dose of insulin secreted in expectation of a big dose of carbs lowers
your blood sugar, but when the carbs don't come in, the next meal will
trigger a much lower response.

I've written this up in more detail at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/offplan.htm to help people know what
to expect if they go off plan.

BTW, if you are diabetic and no longer make very much insulin, this may not
happen, since your body is struggling to come up with any insulin at all and
no longer has first phase insulin response..  But if you are not yet
diabetic but heading that way, the more insulin resistant you are, the more
intense the cravings will be.

In any case, I'd say that if you get intense and extreme cravings after
adding carbs after low carbing, it may be a warning signal that your blood
sugar is under stress. It would be a good idea to heed that warning!

--
Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c
5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> | How's that for a provocative title?
> |
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> Peter
> website:  http://users.thelink.net/marengo
Cailleachschilde - 09 Mar 2004 00:50 GMT
>While I'm curious about the mechanism of this, I'm not sufficiently
>interested to schedule another off-plan day. So, I'll ask others here -
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Thanks,
>Martha

One night while eating out of a resturant, I had a slice of bread before my
meal.  Even though the meal itself was carb friendly, prime rib and string
beans, I way overate.  I didn't even notice until it was too late.

My suggestion is, set your portion controls ahead of time so you'll finish
eating when full because your appestat won't tell you.

Yvonne
jpatti - 09 Mar 2004 12:12 GMT
Cravings when on carbs are really, really intense... it's something
way beyond hunger for me.  Not that it can't be resisted, but it does
take willpower the first week on low-carbing before my blood sugar
gets straightened out and I can easily eat normally.

I limit my "cheats" to one *meal* a month, not one day.  I can already
see the justifications for overeating if it were an entire day... does
it start at midnight, so if I stay up the night before, I can start
pigging out early?  Or is it based on sleep cycles, so if I stay up
for 28 hours straight, I get to pig out all that time?  No, one *meal*
is easier to handle, I can't justify a meal going longer than 2 hours
max no matter how I try.

A meal once a month doesn't set my cravings in motion.  If it did, I'd
be feeling way different about this.  For me, the switch from a
high-carb to a low-carb diet is unpleasant, and I have no desire to
take another ride on the Week-O'-Cravings rollercoaster.

I think this is why people feel very differently about whether to take
mini-vacations from low-carb or no.  If it causes cravings to kick-in,
then it's just not worth it.
Rev. Melissa Robitille - 09 Mar 2004 13:29 GMT
I find that a food item with too many carbs for too little calories ( ie not
enough fat to slow down the insulin spike ) will cause me to have *wicked*
cravings. I had an egg roll about a week ago, and the whole rest of that day
was *horrible* because I was on induction and had 'budgeted' for that egg
roll, but felt like eating EVERYTHING. I stayed 'on the wagon', yes, but it
was *brutal* that day.   So, no more wheat for me, as well as no more 10
carbs for 110 measly calories items.  I think I may have also determined
that nuts - even brazil nuts - set me off towards 'grazing'.

Rev. Melissa Robitille
5'10"
Started Atkins 2/17/04
300/265/160
diane - 09 Mar 2004 15:59 GMT
In induction, little things like too much splenda, nuts, diet sodas, made
foods harder to resist. I'm staying aware of how many sweeteners I use even
now in OWL, just to make the day go easier. Adding spices like
cinnamon,nutmeg or vanilla help and are more satisfying. I can eat the very
low carb nuts, like macadamia and almonds with no negative effects- but
always weigh out the portion to 1 oz on the diet scale, so I can't say-"hmmm
those nuts are small I can add a few!"

Signature

Diane
Atkins since 12/4/2003
234/208/150   5"8

> I find that a food item with too many carbs for too little calories ( ie not
> enough fat to slow down the insulin spike ) will cause me to have *wicked*
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Started Atkins 2/17/04
> 300/265/160
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.