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Diabetes information books/other suggestions??

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T68b - 13 Mar 2004 04:51 GMT
Anyone care to recommend any books pertaining to Type 2 diabetes?
It looks like dh will soon have the dx--pending blood test results.
Tested his bgl the other day just out of curiosity(I got a new machine for
work, and was curious as to his bgl following donuts--which i didnt eat!!)
Anyway...it was 422.  Tracked it throughout the day, and following
days....stayed above 200--even fasting.  All asymptomatic.
He isnt yet "doing" low carb--I have been. (Yes, i checked my bgl's as
well--they're fine!)
Any comments, suggestions etc?
Thanks.

Kathi
Jenny - 13 Mar 2004 13:33 GMT
Richard K. Bernstein:  Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution.

Gretchen Becker:  The First Year: Type 2 Diabetes

-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> Anyone care to recommend any books pertaining to Type 2 diabetes?
> It looks like dh will soon have the dx--pending blood test results.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Kathi
T68b - 13 Mar 2004 16:39 GMT
Thanks Jenny!

>Richard K. Bernstein:  Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution.
>
>Gretchen Becker:  The First Year: Type 2 Diabetes
Sleepyman - 13 Mar 2004 20:31 GMT
>Thanks Jenny!
>
>>Richard K. Bernstein:  Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution.

Bernstein is a quack!

>>Gretchen Becker:  The First Year: Type 2 Diabetes

Becker is pretty good.

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
Jenny - 13 Mar 2004 23:47 GMT
Sleepy has issues. Dr. Bernstein is a highly respected and very reputable
endocrinologist. You'll learn more about diabetes from reading his book than
you will from any other book on the market.

And if you think he's a "quack" Sleepy, with his recommendations that people
with diabetes use a low carb diet, why are you posting on the low carb
support newsgroup?

-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> >Thanks Jenny!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
> ---------------------------------
revek - 14 Mar 2004 00:22 GMT
Jenny  burbled across the ether:
> Sleepy has issues.

LOL.  Oh, that *is* funny.

why are you posting on the
> low carb support newsgroup?

To punish us for crossposting to asd.  He said so when he first showed
up here.  He also claims to have brought friends.

Signature

revek   www.geocities.com/tanirevek/LowCarb.html  lowcarbing since June
           2002 5'2" 41 F  165+/too much/size seven petite please
"I think...I think it's in my basement. Let me go upstairs and check"
-- Escher.

Sleepyman - 14 Mar 2004 05:03 GMT
>Sleepy has issues. Dr. Bernstein is a highly respected and very reputable
>endocrinologist. You'll learn more about diabetes from reading his book than
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,

Because as you know Jenny, my idea of low carb, most certainly isn't
yours.  Does saying use a low carb diet make anyone an expert?

Here is his medical training according to the A.M.A.:

Medical School:
A EINSTEIN COLL OF MED OF YESHIVA UNIV, BRONX NY 10461
  Graduated 1982

Residency Training:
NY MEDICAL COLLEGE, INTERNAL MEDICINE

Now he calls himself an endocrinologist. To be one, wouldn't one at
some time, specialize in this area?  

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
Jenny - 14 Mar 2004 20:41 GMT
Sleepy,

Residency IS when a doctor specializes.

Einstein is a very highly respected medical school. It has well-respected
endo department which is currently doing some low carb research.   It is
also a very competitive residency program. I grew up in NYC with a parent
who was in the Med School biz. Einstein is a classy place to get into a
residency program.

Bernstein did his residency there.

What's the problem?

--Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> >Sleepy has issues. Dr. Bernstein is a highly respected and very reputable
> >endocrinologist. You'll learn more about diabetes from reading his book than
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
> ---------------------------------
Sleepyman - 15 Mar 2004 00:59 GMT
>Sleepy,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>What's the problem?

I don't know anything about the College, and did not disparage it in
any way. Yes residency is generally when a doc picks his specialty.
Note Bernstein's residency was in Internal Medicine. Docs with that
specialty are a dime a dozen. True endos are scarce as hens teeth.

Sleepy

>> >Sleepy has issues. Dr. Bernstein is a highly respected and very reputable
>> >endocrinologist. You'll learn more about diabetes from reading his book
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
>> ---------------------------------

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
Jenny - 15 Mar 2004 01:43 GMT
Sleepy,

When I asked, my board-certified endocrinologist here in W. Massachusetts, a
guy who has all the appropriate initials after his name what he thought
about Bernstein, he told me that Bernstein is the real deal and greatly
respected by quite a few of his peers. He also said the only problem with
his dietary regimen from his perspective was that people didn't stick to it.
But he said that it you could, it was very effective.

So "quack" doesn't really seem to be the appropriate term for Bernstein at
all.

-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> >Sleepy,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
> ---------------------------------
Sleepyman - 15 Mar 2004 07:32 GMT
>Sleepy,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
>hba1c 5.2.

Well I am happy you and your endo agree. However I still consider him
a quack, (and not an endo either) and I am far from the only one. Even
Mendoza thinks he goes to far.

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
Howard - 15 Mar 2004 16:00 GMT
>Well I am happy you and your endo agree. However I still consider him
>a quack, (and not an endo either) and I am far from the only one. Even
>Mendoza thinks he goes to far.

Ah, so if *you* disagree with a board-certified diabetes specialist,
that automatically makes him a quack.  I see...

Guess what? Bernstein's plan got me and my wife completely off of
diabetes medications and gave us the ability to maintain normal blood
sugar levels without prescription help.  But I guess that since he's a
quack, I'm just imagining that...

Howard@FreshCoffee.biz
http://www.freshcoffee.biz
Sleepyman - 15 Mar 2004 23:11 GMT
>>Well I am happy you and your endo agree. However I still consider him
>>a quack, (and not an endo either) and I am far from the only one. Even
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Howard@FreshCoffee.biz
>http://www.freshcoffee.biz

Bernstein didn't get you off meds, you did. Plenty of people have lost
weight through exercise and eating right so that they could get off
meds, without having to resort to Bernstein. I am glad you and your
wife were able to do so. Don't forget that diabetes is a progressive
disease, so continue your regimen and keep testing.

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
Howard - 16 Mar 2004 03:28 GMT
>Bernstein didn't get you off meds, you did.

Following Bernstein's plan, and acting on information from his book
and other sources of low-carb information.  Our previous attempts to
follow the low-fat disinformation of Ornish, et. al., failed
miserably, and nearly turned both of us into insulin-dependent
diabetics.

>Plenty of people have lost
>weight through exercise and eating right so that they could get off
>meds, without having to resort to Bernstein.

Some even manage to do it with low-fat (with about a 99% failure
rate). I certainly tried, but I got tired of being hungry all the
damned time.  Hunger is like a dripping faucet; you can ignore it for
a while, but it never lets up, and eventually you give in.  Now, I'm
not hungry all the damned time because I don't eat things that make me
hungrier -- an incredibly simple technique completely overlooked by
the mainstream 'medical' profession.

>I am glad you and your
>wife were able to do so. Don't forget that diabetes is a progressive
>disease, so continue your regimen and keep testing.

As far as I can tell, I have licked it completely.  The few times that
I have had more carb than I intended to, it hasn't sent my bg
skyrocketing like it would have 4 years ago.  I don't know how I would
do on a 4-hour GTT, because I will never take one, so I don't know for
sure.  I *do* know that my bg never leaves the range 90-95 as long as
I don't eat too much carbohydrate, which indicates that my pancreas is
more than able to cope without any pharmaceutical assistance.

The reason diabetes is a progressive disease is that the so-called
'medical' profession insists on providing exactly the wrong treatment
for it, and can't connect cause with effect -- because that would
require reputiating established dogma, and admitting grevious error
(and possibly legal liability).  My wife, for instance, was told by
our doctor (whom we subsequently fired) that she would never get off
the meds, and would eventually have to take insulin because the meds
just weren't working well enough.  In his experience, that's what
*always* happens to his victims on his ADA-approved low-fat, high-carb
diet, so ergo, diabetes is always progressive, QED.  We found another
doctor who approved of our low-carb lifestyle.  (You would probably
consider her a quack, too, since you don't approve.)

In my experience, my wife's experience, and the experience of a few
close friends, Bernstein's plan works *extremely* well.  And there is
every reason to think that there is a possibility that if the pancreas
hasn't already been damaged too severely, T2 diabetes can be reversed.
All you have to do is quit destroying it and let it heal.

Howard@FreshCoffee.biz
http://www.freshcoffee.biz
jpatti - 18 Mar 2004 17:38 GMT
> Bernstein didn't get you off meds, you did. Plenty of people have lost
> weight through exercise and eating right so that they could get off
> meds, without having to resort to Bernstein. I am glad you and your
> wife were able to do so. Don't forget that diabetes is a progressive
> disease, so continue your regimen and keep testing.

I don't get what your issue is with Bernstein.  

If you adjust your diet based on your meter, that *is* "resorting" to Bernstein.
Sleepyman - 21 Mar 2004 07:15 GMT
>> Bernstein didn't get you off meds, you did. Plenty of people have lost
>> weight through exercise and eating right so that they could get off
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>If you adjust your diet based on your meter, that *is* "resorting" to Bernstein.

I admittedly steal a bit of info from both of the group gurus. That
said I refuse to be told what I can and cannot eat. I have tested
enough, and continue to test enough to know what I can and cannot eat
safely. Eg, Bread gives me no problem whatsoever. If I wanted to put
some sugar in a cup of coffe I would. The diet I have worked out for
myself works for me. I don't reccomend it to anyone else. I have the
numbers to prove what works. I don't push it on anyone else, and I am
not selling anything either.

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
Jenny - 21 Mar 2004 13:10 GMT
Sleepy,

Quite a few of the epidemiological studies I'm reading lately suggest that
diabetic men tend to have higher fasting bgs but lower post-meal numbers
than women, especially older women.

I think this may explain why the people who are most convinced it isn't
necessary to low carb stringently are males.  And why a lot of us women
wonder how they can be that way.

The researchers often conclude that there are different underlying
physiological processes going on in these two groups.

Even in their 80s, quite a few women retain low fasting numbers--but they
have lots of diabetic complications and they die of heart attacks at rates
that correlate with their post meal numbers.

So perhaps post meal control is tougher for us older ladies? I don't know.
I do know that if I ate the way some diabetic can men eat I'd be in big
trouble.

-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> >> Bernstein didn't get you off meds, you did. Plenty of people have lost
> >> weight through exercise and eating right so that they could get off
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
> ---------------------------------
jpatti - 21 Mar 2004 18:24 GMT
> I admittedly steal a bit of info from both of the group gurus. That
> said I refuse to be told what I can and cannot eat. I have tested
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> numbers to prove what works. I don't push it on anyone else, and I am
> not selling anything either.

As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  If it works for you,
great.

Low-carbing is not working for me to the degree I think it should.
I've been limiting myself to 30-50 g carb per day and I am having too
many up's and down's.  I don't mean up's and down's about sugar, cause
I haven't been testing... my meter is old and unreliable and strips
aren't available anymore - so I don't *know* what my sugar levels are.
I just mean that low-carbing is not giving the results it has in the
past, so I suspect my sugar is still fubar'd and that therefore my
diabetes has worsened.

This isn't *too* surprising, I've been diabetic for over ten years now
and haven't exactly been making the healthiest choices the entire time
- had a whole year on a low-fat diet in there.  Still it's
dissappointing that I don't seem to be entirely able to control with
diet anymore.

So I bought the newest copy of Bernstein's book, bought a new meter,
and am starting a fairly strict regimen for a couple weeks to see
where I am.  Basically, using Bernstein's diet for testing purposes
for a couple weeks to gather data.  I suspect I'm in much worse shape
than a few year ago and probably need to go on metformin, maybe even
insulin.  But I need to collect the data to see what is going on with
me so I can determine that.

I have no insurance, so am particularly glad for Bernstein as I will
be able to do most of the work myself and just use a doctor for
writing scripts, which means I can greatly limit visits and therefore
costs.  Reading his book is much easier than having to go back to the
research library for a few weeks - I've mvoed and don't even know
where the nearest medical library is anymore, think probably Philly,
which is 4 hours away.  And it's convenient that he does the "This is
how your doctor should calculate things" bit... cause I can do it even
with a not-very-knowledgeable doctor.

I don't recommend anyone do what I'm doing anymore than you recommend
your ideas - most people are not biochemists.  But... given that I
can't afford an endo and have a biochemistry background, I can pretty
much handle most of it myself.  Given that his earlier books tracked
the current research when I was up on it, I trust Bernstein and I find
him useful because all the info is conveniently packaged in one book
for me to refer to.

Not to disparge endo's specifically or doctors in general, but...
years back, I asked my primary physician (whom I liked - one of the
few good docs I've ever had) to refer me to an endo for screening for
the late-onset form of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, which my sister
has.  I'd ben having a lot of weird symptoms and given that I likely
carry the gene for CAH, I am at risk for the late-onset form of the
disease.  The endo I saw didn't know half as much about CAH as I did
and my knowledge was a good 5 years out-of-date at the time.  That
sort of sh.t *scares* me, ya know?  I mean, endo's are *supposed* to
know about adrenal disorders, that's their speciality, for crying out
loud!  I had to tell the guy what tests to run.

I've had similar stupidities with doctors my daughter has had.  The
one changed a script to a different drug and didn't understand why it
wasn't working the same, whereas I read the package insert, saw it had
a higher molecular mass, lesser biological effect/mole and faster
clearance... so you'd expect to need nearly 4 times the drug by mass
to get the same effect as the old drug.  This was again a case of
being right in the doctor's specialty, and the idjit had no clue how
the drugs she prescribed actually worked.

Not all doctors are idjits, but I don't assume competence just cause
there's a bunch of letters after their name.  I personally like
Bernstein because he's obviously competent... and I can therefore
trust his work rather than having to follow everything up myself
repeatedly.

The bit I don't get is his obsession about feet.  I've had callused
feet all my life and never considered it a big diabetic issue since it
was like that for decades before I was diagnosed.  I know diabetics
have problems with circulation and feet problems are common and I sure
as heck don't want any bits amputated, but the notion that if I get a
cut on my foot that I should call my doctor right away like it's an
emergency strikes me as a tad overblown.  And never go barefoot even
indoors?  Please, I about live barefoot!
Jean M. - 21 Mar 2004 20:04 GMT
> I mean, endo's are *supposed* to
>know about adrenal disorders, that's their speciality, for crying out
>loud!  I had to tell the guy what tests to run.

It's not that uncommon, and it IS scary. My endo, a self-stated
diabetes specialist, told me not to test too often when I asked for an
Rx for strips to test 4-5 times a day in the beginning. His educator
pushed their own diet and instruction while talking down the ADA's.
Fine, the ADA diet sucks for most diabetics, but theirs was no better.
"Don't test if the meter's running too high." There is no excuse for
that at all.

The only thing he did right was to order the appropriate lab tests.
He's out of the picture now.

--  
Jean M.
New food of the week: water chestnuts

Do away with flipfloping to e-mail.
Sleepyman - 21 Mar 2004 20:40 GMT
>> I admittedly steal a bit of info from both of the group gurus. That
>> said I refuse to be told what I can and cannot eat. I have tested
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>past, so I suspect my sugar is still fubar'd and that therefore my
>diabetes has worsened.

I really hate to lecture, but as a 10 yr diabetic, you *should* know
better than not to test. It seems we all have different thresholds
when it comes to carbs, but we as diabetics need to look at a larger
picture, than those whose entire purpose is weight loss. As you know,
we are more likely to have other problems that piggyback themselves
onto the diabetes.

>This isn't *too* surprising, I've been diabetic for over ten years now
>and haven't exactly been making the healthiest choices the entire time
>- had a whole year on a low-fat diet in there.  Still it's
>dissappointing that I don't seem to be entirely able to control with
>diet anymore.

Diabetes progresses. The lucky ones *can* control it with D&E, but
many can't. If you can't, it isn't necessarily due to a failure of
your WOE, it could just be that you are one of those that *require*
meds. No disgrace, not a sign of weakness, just one of those things.
Doesn't mean that you want to take meds. because you want to pig out
on carbs either.

>So I bought the newest copy of Bernstein's book, bought a new meter,
>and am starting a fairly strict regimen for a couple weeks to see
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>insulin.  But I need to collect the data to see what is going on with
>me so I can determine that.

How are your initial results? How regularly are you testing? If you
need Metformin, by all means go on it. It is a heart healthy drug, and
many will show some initial weight loss on it. That could be due to
the trots though....But seriously, many who don't have GI problems
with it, have reported initial weight loss. Insulin is nothing to be
afraid of. I could not control my FBGs and started taking Lantus at
bedtime. I'm in the 80s and 90s now.

>I have no insurance, so am particularly glad for Bernstein as I will
>be able to do most of the work myself and just use a doctor for
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>how your doctor should calculate things" bit... cause I can do it even
>with a not-very-knowledgeable doctor.

No insurance bites. Where are you buying strips? The cheapest, most
have found, (other than eBay) are at hocks.com. If you are using the
Wal-Mart Relion, I think you are stuck buying them there.
No matter what Bernstein says, don't sell yourself short on a doc! You
are going to get charged the same, so why not look for the best? You
are going to need a doc that schedules quarterly blood tests. You must
know how your liver and kidneys are functioning, if you have high
blood pressure,  what your lipid profile looks like. and what your A1c
is. I would suggest you get your thyroid tested too.  It is vital.

>I don't recommend anyone do what I'm doing anymore than you recommend
>your ideas - most people are not biochemists.  But... given that I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>him useful because all the info is conveniently packaged in one book
>for me to refer to.

We are the ones who could go blind, lose a foot, or end up on
dialysis, not the docs who treat us, so yours is the correct attitude,
but as much as we need to self manage, it is still better to be teamed
with a doc that knows something about the disease.

>Not to disparge endo's specifically or doctors in general, but...
>years back, I asked my primary physician (whom I liked - one of the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>know about adrenal disorders, that's their speciality, for crying out
>loud!  I had to tell the guy what tests to run.

For every doc that finished first in his class, there was one that
finished last. Looks like you got one. For an endo to know nothing
about CAH is a disgrace. I hope you don't develop it, and if ever you
do, they have a better treatment than steroids. As I am sure you know,
steroids can wreak havoc with Bg control.

>I've had similar stupidities with doctors my daughter has had.  The
>one changed a script to a different drug and didn't understand why it
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>emergency strikes me as a tad overblown.  And never go barefoot even
>indoors?  Please, I about live barefoot!

I have to agree with Bernstein on this one. For a great example of
foot problems, check out a thread by Mack in ASD about what looked
like a couple of minor blisters. I have relatives who have lost feet
and legs due to this disease. My dad was an absolute fanatic about
feet. Every night he washed them specially, checked between his toes,
as he made sure they were completely dry, clipped nails if needed. He
was also nuts about shoes. Sneakers were something we wore in gym
class, and in the summer. Shoes at all other times, and good shoes
too. Getting your feet measured and fitted for every pair. Never
buying off the rack. Getting heels and soles fixed by the cobbler. I
am 52 and I still have great arches, no pigeon toes, or bunions,
though I am a bit calloused. The feet, having a blood supply that
travels the farthest from the heart, too often are the first to show
signs of neuropathy, ulcers, and worse.
I think of the time I went to the neurosurgeon wearing sneakers and no
socks. Geeze did I get bitched out.

Do me a favor and keep me posted on your progress. It is going to be
expensive with no insurance, but your health is too important to screw
around with!

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
Howard - 22 Mar 2004 01:59 GMT
>My dad was an absolute fanatic about
>feet. Every night he washed them specially, checked between his toes,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>travels the farthest from the heart, too often are the first to show
>signs of neuropathy, ulcers, and worse.

If you are on Medicare or Medicaid, you can get custom-fitted shoes
that are specially designed for diabetics at little or no
out-of-pocket cost.  They aren't especially pretty, but they are
comfortable.

---
Howard Lee Harkness
Insurance for H1-Bs: http://www.H1Bins.com
Healthcare for the uninsurable: http://www.AFFHC.com
Medigap insurance information: http://medigap.supremesite.net
jpatti - 22 Mar 2004 12:29 GMT
> I really hate to lecture, but as a 10 yr diabetic, you *should* know
> better than not to test. It seems we all have different thresholds
> when it comes to carbs, but we as diabetics need to look at a larger
> picture, than those whose entire purpose is weight loss. As you know,
> we are more likely to have other problems that piggyback themselves
> onto the diabetes.

Sleepy-d00d, the fact of the matter is I was suicidal for over a year.
At that time in my life, my concern about my long-term health was
nil, so I quit testing, quit low-carbing, quit pretty much everything.
 When one is trying to choose between sucking on a tank of helium
versus hanging, blood sugar isn't even on the radar.

Took a good couple years of ups and downs before I beat the depression
even after I ceased being suicidal.  And then... I've posted this
before, but... basically, I went hunting in December with my hubby,
had difficulty trudging through the snow even with hubby breaking
trail, arrived both starving and thirsty, ate 4 tangerines... and got
really, really sick.  As in... in bed for a week with my entire lower
body cramping.

Anyways, I went back on low-carb and started exercising.  Just sorta
assumed that it would get my BGs in shape... it always kept me in
shape before.  But... no I haven't been feeling right, so it was time
to take my head out of the sand and look at the current situation, as
it's obviously not what it was a few years ago.

> Diabetes progresses. The lucky ones *can* control it with D&E, but
> many can't. If you can't, it isn't necessarily due to a failure of
> your WOE, it could just be that you are one of those that *require*
> meds. No disgrace, not a sign of weakness, just one of those things.
> Doesn't mean that you want to take meds. because you want to pig out
> on carbs either.

No worries.  Metformin is OK with me.  Even insulin is OK with me.  I
need to be strong and healthy.  That is not negotiable.


> How are your initial results? How regularly are you testing? If you
> need Metformin, by all means go on it. It is a heart healthy drug, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> afraid of. I could not control my FBGs and started taking Lantus at
> bedtime. I'm in the 80s and 90s now.

I don't have fasting numbers yet cause I pulled an all-nighter for a
project (wasn't done debugging the code and have to train users on it
tomorrow).  My basic protocol is before meals, one and two hours after
meals, before and after exercising.  I'm doing the Bernstein 6-12-12
thing for the duration.  I will be testing before bed and on waking
once I go to sleep again!  I'm running high... especially for someone
eating under 50 g carb per day for almost 3 months now;  I'm seeing
highs in the 150-170 range.  No conclusions yet, I'm looking at
gathering data for a good 2 weeks first.

It's rather scary to contemplate what my sugars must've been in
December if I'm this bad now.


> No insurance bites. Where are you buying strips? The cheapest, most
> have found, (other than eBay) are at hocks.com. If you are using the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> blood pressure,  what your lipid profile looks like. and what your A1c
> is. I would suggest you get your thyroid tested too.  It is vital.

I bought the strips at Wal-art, but not their brand.  I bought an
Accu-Chek Active meter and their strips.  Cheap and seems to have a
wide enough user base to not go out of biz like my last meter.

And no, endo's do not charge the same as general practicioners.
Specialists are *way* more.  Can't afford it.  Besides, my luck I'd
get the "bottom of the class" guy again.

Lab tests are problematic cause I have to pay for those too.  I'm
thinking to ask for an a1c, serum c-peptide, thyroid profile, lipid
profile and serum ferritin (I'm recently perimenopausal and suspect I
may have iron issues).  But no, I won't be doing it every 3 months...
no way I can afford that.  I just need to get a baseline and figure
out where I am... cause it is *not* where I was a few years ago.  I
don't know what works now and have to find out.

I'll figure out what works and once I'm under good control, test a few
days a month with a strict protocol again to keep track of where I am.


> We are the ones who could go blind, lose a foot, or end up on
> dialysis, not the docs who treat us, so yours is the correct attitude,
> but as much as we need to self manage, it is still better to be teamed
> with a doc that knows something about the disease.

Sure.  And when I have insurance again, probably in 2-3 years, I'll do
that.  Meanwhile, I'll figure out what's best and talk a cheapo doctor
into writing me scripts.


> For every doc that finished first in his class, there was one that
> finished last. Looks like you got one. For an endo to know nothing
> about CAH is a disgrace. I hope you don't develop it, and if ever you
> do, they have a better treatment than steroids. As I am sure you know,
> steroids can wreak havoc with Bg control.

Yup.  My dad's diabetes was controlled with oral meds for *decades*
and within a few weeks on prednisone, he was on insulin.

On the other hand, my sister has the severe salt-wasting form of CAH.
She *has* to be on cortisol and aldosterone or she'd be dead... cause
she makes none at all.

I don't think I'd do well on cortisol at all, but it's unlikely to
come up.  The percentages for late-onset are pretty low for a sibling.

I should've become an endo instead of a biochemist... enough work just
in my family to keep me employed.  ;)


> I have to agree with Bernstein on this one. For a great example of
> foot problems, check out a thread by Mack in ASD about what looked
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I think of the time I went to the neurosurgeon wearing sneakers and no
> socks. Geeze did I get bitched out.

Ah, you have experience with the feet thing.  Guess Bernstein does too
and hence the differing reactions.

My experience with diabetes before my own diagnosis was primarily with
my father.  In fact, I was diagnosed with diabetes around the time he
was dying and he died within a couple months of starting insulin (not
of diabetic complicaitons, he died of emphysema).  Messed with my head
quite a bit - which was probably good as it threw me into the library
to learn rather than take anyone's word for anything.

But he had no problem with his feet, I've never had any problem with
mine, so it isn't "real" to me.  I mean, I'm *aware* of my feet...
like if I'm out in the  cold, I wiggle my toes in my boots
periodically to make sure I can still feel them.  I know not to check
bath temperature with my feet.  Etc.  But I don't caretake them beyond
the occassional nail clipping and normal showering and stuff.  I go
barefoot a lot, and otherwise wear socks or slippers, regular
sneakers, flipflops or rope sandals, or boots.  My "pumps" have no
heels... I won't wear heels.  That's it.  I don't "get" the whole foot
thing cause I don't see it.


> Do me a favor and keep me posted on your progress. It is going to be
> expensive with no insurance, but your health is too important to screw
> around with!

I think you are failing at your announced intention to troll this
newsgroup; you're posting real stuff.  ;)
Sleepyman - 23 Mar 2004 05:07 GMT
>> I really hate to lecture, but as a 10 yr diabetic, you *should* know
>> better than not to test. It seems we all have different thresholds
[quoted text clipped - 155 lines]
>I think you are failing at your announced intention to troll this
>newsgroup; you're posting real stuff.  ;)

Just an FYI, I never announced any intention to troll this NG. I said
I hate all things Atstein, which is my abbreviation for
Atkins/Bernstein, because I think one was a charlatan and the other is
a quack.... But I do LC, just my version. Therefore I have been called
a troll. Been called worse. Doesn't bother me in the least.

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
jpatti - 24 Mar 2004 19:35 GMT
> Just an FYI, I never announced any intention to troll this NG. I said
> I hate all things Atstein, which is my abbreviation for
> Atkins/Bernstein, because I think one was a charlatan and the other is
> a quack.... But I do LC, just my version. Therefore I have been called
> a troll. Been called worse. Doesn't bother me in the least.

I don't think real highly of Aktins either.  When folks ask my advice
about low-carbing, I usually suggest Protein Power.  The Eades have
gotten into the stupid marketing business to some degree too, with
videos and what not.  Hard to make a lot of money with just a diet, I
guess.  But their work is a good place to start for most folks, and
it's backed with research, you don't have to have faith or do the
research yourself as with Atkins.  I think their book is a good place
to start and always recommend them as opposed to Atkins.

I think this group is more useful still... the knowledge developed
over years of people actually doing low-carb, much of which has been
encapsulated in the extraordinary FAQ, is more useful than *any* of
the books.  I went back to the FAQ when I decided to go back to
low-carbing before I re-read Protein Power.

I do think highly of Bernstein and am not getting why you consider him
a quack.  You seem to agree with most of his stuff - eat low carb,
meter, take meds as needed to control blood sugar, take care of your
feet.  I don't get which bits you're finding quack-y.
Sleepyman - 27 Mar 2004 08:15 GMT
>> Just an FYI, I never announced any intention to troll this NG. I said
>> I hate all things Atstein, which is my abbreviation for
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>meter, take meds as needed to control blood sugar, take care of your
>feet.  I don't get which bits you're finding quack-y.

Re: Bernstein
Well where shall we start.
*We must keep out our BGs between 85-100 at all times*. -Well it would
be nice to do that. If I could, I wouldn't be a diabetic would I? I
think setting an impossible goal, sets one up for dissapointment and
worse. Sure, some can do it. But they don't have much of a life. I
would rather live my life around my diabetes than the reverse, and I
am doing a reasonably good job of it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Keeping at this level will reverse  diabetic complications* -
Diabetes is a crapshoot. Many diabetics with terrible control live
long complication free lives. Many with excellent control suffer
numerous complications. No pie in the sky here. Of course by keeping
Bgs as low as possible one decreases risk of complications. They can
not be eliminated. Also once gotten most cannot be eliminated. The
blind cannot see if they get their Bgs between 85-100 at all times. So
at the very least, he is misleading. Here a a direct quote reffering
to the DCCT study:

"Instead of a one-third reduction in retinopathy, they found more than
a 75 percent reduction in the progression of early retinopathy.  They
found similarly dramatic results in other diabetic complications and
announced the results of the study early in order to make the good
news immediately available to all.  they found a 50 percent reduction
of risk for  kidney disease, a 60 percent reduction of risk for nerve
damage, and a 35  percent reduction of risk for cardiovascular
disease."

"I believe that with truly normal blood sugars, which many of my
patients have, these reductions can be 100 percent."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*His complete disdain for sulfs*- He says they cause too many lows.
Well in truth they can produce lows, if not combined with food. It is
up to the user to use them correctly. Insulin produces a lot of lows,
if not used correctly too.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Micromanagement of Insulin use* - Sorry, he makes things way too
complicated IMO. I think my betas are dying, and I am going to end up
LADA, so I am afraid this may become important to me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*His total disdain for The Pump.* - Not a T1 or a pump user myself,
but it works well for too many people to dismiss it out of hand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*No Snacks* -Sorry I don't think this makes any sense either.
Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner, only, and especially at the radicaly low
levels of CHO he wants, is nuts. One can maintain ones levels much
better with a snack or two included. A small low carb high fat snack
before bed, or even waking up in the middle of the night, and having
half a handfull of nuts, will do a lot to help those who have problems
with liver dumps, (The Dawn Effect)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats a start. but just those things are enough to make me run as fast
as I can in the other direction if I saw Bernstein walking down the
street.

Sleepy

____________________________________
       The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
____________________________________
Howard - 22 Mar 2004 01:56 GMT
>I have no insurance, so am particularly glad for Bernstein as I will
>be able to do most of the work myself and just use a doctor for
>writing scripts, which means I can greatly limit visits and therefore
>costs.

There are many people in your situation.  Roughly a quarter of the US
population is uninsured.

*I* am uninsurable, despite the fact that I am in the insurance
business.

---
Howard Lee Harkness
Insurance for H1-Bs: http://www.H1Bins.com
Healthcare for the uninsurable: http://www.AFFHC.com
Medigap insurance information: http://medigap.supremesite.net
jamie - 23 Mar 2004 20:00 GMT
> I've been limiting myself to 30-50 g carb per day and I am having too
> many up's and down's.  I don't mean up's and down's about sugar, cause
> I haven't been testing... my meter is old and unreliable and strips
> aren't available anymore - so I don't *know* what my sugar levels are.

The WalMart Relion Meter is about $15, and the strips cost about half as
much as just about any other strips.  It takes a slightly larger blood
drop than most other modern meters, but probably not more than your old
discontinued one.

I had to look into meter and strip costs for my newly-diagnosed diabetic
cat two months ago, which obviously isn't covered by insurance.  (The
Relion wasn't very suitable for testing cats, because you need a strip
that sucks up the blood drop from the end.  I went with the Bayer Elite.)

Signature

 jamie  (jamiemck@newsguy.com)

         "There's a seeker born every minute."

Sleepyman - 24 Mar 2004 06:04 GMT
>> I've been limiting myself to 30-50 g carb per day and I am having too
>> many up's and down's.  I don't mean up's and down's about sugar, cause
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Relion wasn't very suitable for testing cats, because you need a strip
>that sucks up the blood drop from the end.  I went with the Bayer Elite.)

Remember that if you use a Relion, your readings are in Whole Blood ,
as opposed to most of the modern meters that are calibrated to use
your Whole (capillary) blood to give you an equivalent Plasma Blood
result. This is because all your lab blood work, will be reported in
Plasma. I know it sounds wicked confusing, but it isn't. I just don't
explain it very well. Your Plasma Blood numbers will be 12-18% lower
(the correct amount is in dispute in ASD) than a Plasma reading from a
more modern meter.

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
Jenny - 24 Mar 2004 14:32 GMT
Sleepy,

Theoretically, the difference in readings with the Relion should be 12%
lower.

BUT, I've compared readings on my Relion  with those of my Accuchek at least
10 times using blood from the same stick and the actual difference has been
only a very repeatable 6 mg/dl when readings are around 100 mg/dl.

Given how consistently these two meters read, I think the current margin of
error is a lot lower than people believe (more like the 5% reported on the
Relion strips.) And the Relion came closer to the fasting value I got from
the lab than the Accuchek which is supposed to be plasma calibrated.

-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> >> I've been limiting myself to 30-50 g carb per day and I am having too
> >> many up's and down's.  I don't mean up's and down's about sugar, cause
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
> ---------------------------------
Ignoramus26794 - 24 Mar 2004 14:46 GMT
> Sleepy,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Relion strips.) And the Relion came closer to the fasting value I got from
> the lab than the Accuchek which is supposed to be plasma calibrated.

Jenny, so, does that mean, practically, that I should take relion
readings at face value?

Perhaps what I will do is this: I will assume that my FBGis constant,
measure my FBG with the relion, and compare it with the lab result
from January 2. It could give me a good idea about the relion to
plasma conversion coefficient.

i

> hba1c 5.2.
> Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>>      The True Axis of Evil
>> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
Jenny - 24 Mar 2004 21:17 GMT
My fasting blood sugar bounces around within a 10 mg/dl range except when
I've carbed up, then it goes up another 10 mg/dl.

If the lab FBG is way out of range for what you are getting on your meter at
home, and looks like you need the 12% correction, then use it.  If it looks
close, don't worry. More importantly if your lab value is close to 90 I
wouldn't worry about fasting at all and would use the meter to get a
relative idea of what pushes your post meal numbers up. Fasting numbers only
start to go up after you've had a lot of beta cells die and are headed
towards diabetes. Post meal numbers for most (but not all) people, go up
much sooner in the process of blood sugar control deterioration.

-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> > Sleepy,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> >>      The True Axis of Evil
> >> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
Ignoramus26794 - 24 Mar 2004 21:45 GMT
Thanks, I will try it soon.

i

> My fasting blood sugar bounces around within a 10 mg/dl range except when
> I've carbed up, then it goes up another 10 mg/dl.
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
>> >>      The True Axis of Evil
>> >> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
jpatti - 24 Mar 2004 19:49 GMT
> >The WalMart Relion Meter is about $15, and the strips cost about half as
> >much as just about any other strips.  It takes a slightly larger blood
> >drop than most other modern meters, but probably not more than your old
> >discontinued one.

I hate Wal-mart.  I shop there rarely.

I picked up my meter there because I wanted one right away, but buying
their brand and being stuck buying from them indefinetly was not ever
a possibility.

> ---------------------------------
>      The True Axis of Evil
> Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
> ---------------------------------

I'd add Wal-mart to that list.  And Microsoft.  And rather quite a lot
of mega-corporations.  ?You are probbaly someone who would enjoy
reading this book: http://gangsofamerica.com
Sleepyman - 27 Mar 2004 08:21 GMT
>> >The WalMart Relion Meter is about $15, and the strips cost about half as
>> >much as just about any other strips.  It takes a slightly larger blood
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>of mega-corporations.  ?You are probbaly someone who would enjoy
>reading this book: http://gangsofamerica.com

I think we have some mis-attribution going on here...

Sleepy

____________________________________
       The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
____________________________________
jpatti - 27 Mar 2004 14:08 GMT
> >I'd add Wal-mart to that list.  And Microsoft.  And rather quite a lot
> >of mega-corporations.  ?You are probbaly someone who would enjoy
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Sleepy

Yup, my bad... I was responding to two posters and accidentally cut
one of the attribution lines.  Sorry.

The link above was intended for you though.
Sleepyman - 28 Mar 2004 00:17 GMT
>> >I'd add Wal-mart to that list.  And Microsoft.  And rather quite a lot
>> >of mega-corporations.  ?You are probbaly someone who would enjoy
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>The link above was intended for you though.

Looks interesting. Thanks!

Sleepy

____________________________________
       The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
____________________________________
jpatti - 15 Mar 2004 07:53 GMT
> Richard K. Bernstein:  Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution.

Seconded.

I was a biochem grad student when I was diagnosed and did a lot of
time in the research library.

Bernstein summarizes what I learned very well - could've saved me a
few hundred hours of research had I run across him earlier.
Jenny - 15 Mar 2004 14:21 GMT
jpatti,

I've been doing something similar of late, going through the research
papers.  I just found one that validates Bernstein's claim (made in the
first edition, before the research was published, that sulfonylureas are
toxic to beta cells.) Just that one bit of advice may have saved me from
making a very expensive (to my beta cells) mistake.

Beyond that I can't think of a single bad thing that has happened to my
health over the past 5 1/2 years from following his advice.  Friends who
were diagnosed at the same time as I was, who followed the ADA diet, and
used the sulfs are now on insulin.  I'm still on D&E. The only problem I
have is that my fasting is inching up, but at its worst is only in the
"impaired" range.  Bernstein suggests Avandia, and I'm looking into it.

More importantly, there are whole file cabinets full of research that show
that the current ADA diagnostic standard misses diagnosing women because of
its reliance on the fasting test value and that hba1c also misses the
diagnosis in a group of people at high risk for diabetic complications.

Had I not read Bernstein, I'd have believed my doctor when she told me that
my normal fasting  blood sugar and hba1c (normal only if you think 6.4% is
normal) meant I had "nothing to worry about."  Bernstein told me that values
in the 200s after meals were not only not normal, but dangerous to my
health.  That turns out to be true, backed up by a ton of  good research.
Unfortunately, the ADA has done all it could to keep Americans and doctors
from learning this fact since it is wedded to using the fasting test as the
ONLY test and it's experts would lose face if they changed course on it.

-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> > Richard K. Bernstein:  Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Bernstein summarizes what I learned very well - could've saved me a
> few hundred hours of research had I run across him earlier.
Sleepyman - 15 Mar 2004 23:16 GMT
>jpatti,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>toxic to beta cells.) Just that one bit of advice may have saved me from
>making a very expensive (to my beta cells) mistake.

You found "one" study that validates Bernsteins claim on sulfs? Not
exactly overwhelming evidence is it? If it were true, we would have
millions more T 1.5s wouldn't we?

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------
jpatti - 18 Mar 2004 17:32 GMT
The research I did was different, you could get CAS Online back then
for an outrageous online fee, so I used a medical research library
since I was a poor student. Now, you can research everything on the
internet.

I read everything I could get my hands on regarding diabetes, but what
has stuck with me all these years was looking at blood sugar profiles
of normals, Type1's and Type2's after eating various foods.  There
wasn't a "glycemic index" back then, just the simple categorization of
protein, carb and fat and various percentages of each, with all carbs
treated equally.

I know there's recently been studies to confirm that keeping diabetic
blood sugar in normal ranges prevents diabetic complications, but I
just *assumed* it was true that normal ranges should be my goal.  I
figured out the ideal diet for an average Type2 to mimic normal blood
sugar patterns, not even using metering, but just what I saw as the
typical blood sugars for Type 2's after eating various foods.  The
diet I devised had no relationship whatsoever to the ADA diet my
doctor prescribed, so I ignored the ADA crap right from the start.  It
was *obvious* that the ADA diet would result in severely high blood
sugar from the research I saw.

This was pre-pyramid too, though it was the time they were working out
the pyramid to replace the 4 food groups we had when I was in primary
school.  Thus fat was evil and low-fat meant high-carb, and so went
the ADA diet.  Ironically, while humans were advised to eat gobs of
carbs, it turns out that animal science had a better clue; diabetic
animals were put on low-carb, higher-protein feeds.  It was just
diabetic *people* who were supposed to eat all this carby stuff - with
no real justificaiton for why a diabetic ought to eat to have high
blood sugar.

Bernstein was the first MD I listened to at all about diabetes since
he was he only one who said anything even remotely clueful based on
the research I'd seen.   Everyone else was still pushing the ADA diet
at the time I first read Bernstein a few years ago.

The primary thing Bernstein added to my knowledge was the power of
metering to devise the best diet for *me* rather than for an average
Type 2.  This is a much better method than just deciding to use an
average and hope your blood sugars are in the target range.

I just picked up his most recent book and am reading it now.  There's
definetly some updates based on newer research versus his older books.
Good stuff.
Jmmbear - 13 Mar 2004 18:26 GMT
>Anyone care to recommend any books pertaining to Type 2 diabetes?
>It looks like dh will soon have the dx--pending blood test results.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Kathi

besides the two books Jenny recomended..Try Diabetes for Dummies..
All three books are a wellspring of information...
As always YMMV and this is JMO
Jeanne Type 2  Diagnosed 05/28/02
194/164/120
T68b - 13 Mar 2004 20:28 GMT
>besides the two books Jenny recomended..Try Diabetes for Dummies..
>All three books are a wellspring of information...

thanks.  I saw that one on Amazon, didnt know if people dealing with diabetes
found it helpful.  Would rather get books/info from people actually dealing
with the problem.
THanks!

Kathi
Jmmbear - 15 Mar 2004 05:07 GMT
>>besides the two books Jenny recomended..Try Diabetes for Dummies..
>>All three books are a wellspring of information...
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Kathi

Kathi, Diabetes for Dummies  answers a lot of the simpler questions in a manner
that doesnt require a chemistry degree to understand.. LOL
I got a lot out of all three books..

As always YMMV and this is JMO
Jeanne Type 2  Diagnosed 05/28/02
194/164/120
 
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