You will succeed because you have the right frame of mind. Most people I
know that failed did so because of these so called low carb treats which are
pretty much all crap. You will be able to "treat" yourself to the next
smaller size while the people around you try to figure out how you did it.
Kudos.

CM

Been writing in English very long?

are you like this with your students? I pity them if you are...

JC, you know the real answers here, yet you couch it all so
disagreeably that few even read your posts anymore...

My first question to you is still unanswered:

WHY ARE YOU SO ANGRY?

katie k

I've actually gone without berries, carrots, artificial sweeteners,
or sugar of any description, OR junky foods with additives, for
months and months.  By the time I finally did start adding
blueberries back, they tasted like a *major* sugar blast!  
I used to think blueberries were "mildly sweet" but after
re-conditioning my body to like the food it's *meant* to like, it
was to me what snickers bars are to most people.

By the time my body isn't constantly drip-fed sweet things on a
daily basis the taste buds adjust accordingly.  It was getting to
the point where cucumbers tasted extremely sweet to me.

People are often afraid to see what their taste buds will do when
left to their own natural devices.  It's understandable.  The idea
that a cucumber could end up tasting like watermelon used to, was
once one I scoffed at, myself.  Until I tried it, seriously, on myself.

CM

stay away from them... it seems that certain people just matabolize
these things and gain appetite with them!

again think MEDICAL not DIET

Back then, they ate less and exercised more. It's a fact.

Bear,

Don't be confused. This is an individual path and you will find what will work
for you.

There are a lot of low carb diet nazi's on this board that think there is only
ONE way to low carb and it's their way. Any other way will insure failure.
It's not true.

The important thing is to know yourself and to learn what will work for you.

I'm with you. I see no good reason to have to give up all treats forever and
ever.
Can they be a regular part of my food plan? NO!
Can I have a cupcake or a slice of cake on my birthday? Yes. Can I have a whole
cake in the house? Nope... cause I"ll eat it.   Will I buy  a cake and then
send it home with other people who can eat it? yes.

Usually, for my birthday or a special event,  I'd rather treat myself to a good
seafood dinner than a piece of cake but every rare once in a while the
chocolate cake sounds better. .... it works for me.

I don't keep junk food in the house and I rarely want it. And to be honest,
even when I'm wanting "junk" the stuff that is available isn't worth it. Now
maybe if it was really excellent I'd be more willing to make an exception but
even then it would be exactly that... a rare exception.

Eating one slice of birthday cake on a "rare" occassion isn't going to make you
fat

If you make those occassions the rule rather than the exception then you're
courting failure.
I have so many birthday's to celebrate in the month of september that I could
easily gain 20#s so I choose to eat a good low carb mean before going to the
celebration so I'm not hungry and easily tempted.
Perhaps if I'm feeling a bit depressed and feeling the need to self medicate
with food instead of going for chocolate cake I'll pick up some shrimp or try
one of the great recipes that I've gotten off of this board.  I'll get my
"treat", feel better and not have sabotaged myself.

For me I can't have milk in the house. I can easily drink 1/2 a gallon or more
daily.
I'll have the low carb "dairy beverage" in the house on occassion but dont'
feel like I can have it in here all the time. For some people milk etc is not
an issue and it will go bad in their house.
It's all individual.
I appreciate having lower carb versions of foods like bread available but once
again you have to know yourself. I can have regular super market lower carb
bread in the house without a problem. My mom gave me a loaf of Great Harvest
Breads low carb white bread (5 grams per slice) and it was too good. LOL. I
won't have it in my house on  a regular basis. I go through it way too fast.  

It's all a learning process. Stick to the basics and real food (low carb) and
you'll do great.
The world will not come to an end if you have the occassional treat.
Ignore the food police (both low fat and low carb versions of the food nazi's).
There are a lot of people in the world who enjoy spewing their opinion out for
all to see and try to make people who don't agree feel bad. Don't fall for it.
They aren't people you'd want to associate with anyway.

JC was not right when he said you would always be fat unless you let him be.
Prove him wrong. You've already done a great job. You know how. It's just a
matter of implementing it on a daily basis. Sort of like an alcoholic. You just
do it now and don't put stumbling blocks in your way.

Personally, I think fitting into my lower size  jeans and not having the triple
by-pass that I was destined for "tastes" a lot better than most high carb
treats. It doesn't however, keep me in a straight jacket. I can live my life,
make my choices and live with the consequences.  The occassional treat doesn't
immediately throw me into jeans two sizes larger or send my triglycerides sky
high.  I've found what works for me. I"m happy. I don't really care what anyone
else thinks.  I hope you can find that same thing.

Good luck!!

Susan
aka turtlebeachgal

They also tended to do a lot more physical labor.

What's the answer here? Are others here ready to give

You just made it into one big problem ("those foods") instead of a bunch of
little ones. Hopefully you'll get past that.

The foods you listed are all different and have different levels of "cost"
associated with them. A serving of sweet peas in my cabinet says 11g - 4g
fiber for net 7g carbs/serving. If I ever miss them, I'll pop open a can
and eat them. They will cost me no more than 7g per serving, which most
reasonably healthy people can handle.

Watermelon has a different cost. So does sourdough bread. If you feel you
HAVE to have these things on a regular basis, and you can't control your
portions effectively, the diet probably WON'T work for you. No diet will
work long term without behavior modification. Not even stomach stapling
will (those who refuse to change will eventually stretch their stomachs
again).

What LC does is allow you not to physically crave so much. At least for
some people (like me). It can't change the mental addictions, though.

One day you may be able to look at peas and decide you don't HAVE to have
them. If you can fit them in as part of your overall diet, OK, but at the
end of the day, they're only a bit of food. There are other foods. At some
point you find yourself eating something and thinking "I could have done
without that." Then you're on your way.

Don't expect perfection. Hang in there. Let failure introduce itself, don't
just assume it is coming to the party.

Confused?  Sure you're confused.  Who among us has all the answers?
When you think you have the answer sheet in hand, the questions
change.  That's life.   But, if you wanna succeed you will succeed.

NEVER accept external negative programming.  You will not always be
fat if you have chosen to be thinner.  It may take you longer to
achieve your goal than others.  However, getting to where YOU want to
be is up to you.  You're still in the early stages of understanding
how your body responds to different foods.  You're still learning how
to accept portion control as part of eating behavior.  You have yet to
push your body down to goal weight and find a comfortable level of
maintenance caloric intake and exercise.

People throw around the bromide "your body - your science experiment".
However, experimenting and learning about your body and how it
responds to various stimuli forms the matrix of success.

Don't stop learning and never give up your dreams.  BTW you may find
that you willingly give up some or most of those foods you currently
believe are an all important part of a future menu.  By retraining
your body and mind you may find that you become satisfied with
miniscule portions of high quality versions of hitherto "forbidden"
foods.  The answers are out there.  Never give up.

Lee Rodgers
Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org
CHATroom  http://www.lowcarb.org/parachat.html
Low-Carb Connoisseur puts the dash in low-carb
http://www.low-carb.com

I can live the rest of my life without any of those foods, and many others.
However, I don't have to do that to control my weight or maintain my health.

People 30 years ago or

It's not just about what you eat, it's about what you eat, how much you eat,
how often you eat it, whether you exercise, etc.  Also, if you don't
actively strive to keep fit, you won't.

How about 85 to 95% of forever?  Would that be so hard?  Remember, every
time you eat something it does not have to a mouth orgy.  What about eating
simply to maintain health most of the time? If you do that, and get plenty
of exercise on a regular basis, you can have those foods 5 to 15% of the
time, but you must *always* be mindful.

In this post, you're expressing what seems like a love affair with food.

No.

That part, imo, is a problem.

I don't know that it

See....so living without corn on the cob is like never having sex?  Both of
those are things that can be easily done, BTW.

Giving up every enjoyable treat so

JC is not God nor does he have a crystal ball that works. But the question
of whether you will be fat or not lies solely in your hands.  It's your
choice, Bear, and you will have to find what it takes for you, if you choose
that path.

Dietary perfection is not needed.  You have not died and gone to hell.
However, dietary control is needed, as well as a strong eye toward
maintaining/improving health via regular exercise. IMO.

BTW, have you read Atkins for Life?  It deals with maintenance on a LC
WOE....you'd do well to give it a read if you haven't.

.

Did I say "rest of my life?"....
wow, amazing I don't even have to say something to have said it. :)
I just said that going without sweet things for a sustained period of
time helped my taste buds to adjust....
CM (who does eat carrots and peas)

That was quite possibly the best written post of the day, which was
100% on topic. How can you call it a troll?

I am not sure how eating no sugar implies no corn on the cob,
myself. You are going too far. I personally eat no sweetened foods, no
matter what the sweetener. I have had reasonable success as I have
maintained my weight loss for 6 months with no major struggles.

I eat sourdough bread, carrots, peas, NO birthday cake on anyone's
birthday, and corn -- in moderation.

many people who were slim 30 years ago are now fat. it takes time to
get fat.

try not to depend on mouth sensation too much, and like I said, you
are overgeneralizing the OP's suggestions.

A mild calorie restriction is likely to make all foods taste
delicious.

38 waist?????????????????????/

Maybe he was right. Life is cruel. If you value mouth sensation over
38 inch waist (which is a huge waist), maybe you will not have even 38
inch waist.

i

Have you ever thought that some people feel better about themselves when
they feel they sacrifice.  Its the puritan that relishes the idea of
hardship for its own sake.  For building moral character.  You have to find
what works for you and as long as it works that's good enough.  It doesn't
make one morally superior because they never touch splenda, watermelon or a
piece of lc cake. some give these up because they have to.  some give these
up because they like the idea of giving things up.  Others may not give
things up when they need to.  Then again people can follow Rogers advice
about exercise, portions etc that allows them to partake and still get
results.

Sid...

well stay off it just till you lose the weight. after that those things are
FINE so long as you eat them reasonably.

having carrots sourdough bread etc.. etc.. is fine

even candy is fine. 50 years ago it was unheard of to have candy daily or
even weekly or monthly. it was also unheard of to have it in the quantity
that we have it nowadays.

its all a matter of quantity (once you lose the weight that is when your fat
you have to make sacrifices to get rid of the weight)

I do not plan on using this way of eating for the rest of my life. if things
go as I plan another 1. to 1.5 years. thats it.

then I plan to start eating other foods again but I will carefully and
visciously watch the amount quantity and frequency.

I love my pasta. and oodles andnoodles soup. I love my fruit. bread I dont
miss all that much so its not a big thing to me. I love carrots. potatoes
are ok.

I will enjoy them. responsibly. for now I am paying the price of not being
responsible. I starts this diet at 415 pounds.

I am now at 341 pounds. its well worth the temporary loss of those food
items to compensate for my over abuse of them previously in type and
quantity.

now I am paying the price for those mistakes. its worth it to lose the
weight trust me :-)

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

There is no need to eliminate all "bad" foods from your life ALL the
time. You just need to fit them into your daily plan. Personally I
allow myself between 75-125g of carbs/day. I try to keep that on the
low end of that, and on the low end of the GI. If I have a slice of
bread (which I do on a regular basis) it just means something comes
off on the other end. You can eat a lot of "free" foods (celery e.g.)
as snacks to keep the stomach from grumbling. I eat a small baked
potato on occasion too. BTW I am a T2 diabetic on top of many other
medical problems. The fats I eat tend to be monosaturated, and I try
to limit saturated and all trans-fats. Of course there is no way to
avoid all saturated fats, and I accept this and don't worry about it.
By limiting carbs, of course you tend to eat more fats, and protein,
and this shouldn't be any problem as long as you have no pre-existing
Kidney problems. I try to avoid saturated fats (when possible) for
heart health. The only problems I have with this type of diet is high
trigs. My cholesterol is 135, HDL 35 (need more exercise!) LDL is 39.
Trigs unfortunately jumped to 382 from 193 in my last quarterly blood
test, but considering it was once 1862, it is something I know I can
get better. My homocystine is 11.5, so all in all I would have to say
my fat management is doing pretty well heart wise.  I had a BMI of 26
until July when I started Insulin and Actos (another diabetes drug)
Unfortunate side effects of these are weight gain, I put on 35 lbs. I
have a BMI of 31 now. But I have lost 11 of those pounds since January
by increased exercise, so all is not lost. When I eat something with
empty carbs, like a slice of pizza once in a while, I don't feel
guilty, and don't think I cheated. I think I ate it because I wanted
to, enjoyed the hell out of it, and could possibly do it again! I try
look at the big picture.

Sleepy

---------------------------------
    The True Axis of Evil
Bush - Cheney - Ashcroft - Rumsfeld
---------------------------------

No, you don't have to eat low-carb every meal, every day for the rest
of your life.

Some people ban some foods from their lives entirely because they have
a bad reaction to those specific foods.  That someone else doesn't eat
bread ever because they have a problem with wheat does not mean you
have to do so anymore than you have to avoid peanut butter because
someone else is deathly allergic to peanuts.  You have to find what
works for you and it won't be what works for everyone else.

What works for me if one meal a month of whatever I want, gives me a
limited place to put the desires for stuff and/or allow celebrations
around food or such.  That works for me.  I don't miss carby foods
much cause I eat a pretty decadent diet on low-carb anyway, there's
nothing "limiting" with the way I'm eating that makes me feel
deprived.  My low-carb diet is not veyr monk-like.  But a brief
vacation from that once in a while works for me and gives me room to
eat at a friend's house or a holiday or such without having to stress
or worry over it.

Jenny has posted she does one-week of higher carb followed by one week
of low-carb - I don't think that would work for me as I find the
withdrawal from higher carb levels extremely unpleasant.  It works for
her though.

This is significant - we're both diabetic.  And even though we're
dealing with the same basic problem in our biochemistry, we still have
different reactions to foods and what works for each of us varies.

People in the past ate differently than we do because they did a ton
of physical work.  If you're making bread by starting by plowing the
land to plant wheat berries, with harvesting, winnowing, threshing and
grinding ahead of you before you get to the baking step, you can
obviously eat a whole heck of a lot more bread than if you earn the
money to buy said bread sitting on your butt in front of a computer.

Some people make that choice today, to exercise really hard in ordr to
have more leeway in what they eat.

If what you're grieiving is that you can never eat sourdough or
watermelon ever again, that's incorrect unless it turns out you
personally can't eat either of those items without bad effects.

But on the other hand, if what you are grieving is that you can't go
back to eating the way you ate to get fat without getting fat again -
well, yeah.  That's pretty obvious.  If what you *really* want is to
eat whatever you want without limit, you're better off not dieting at
all because the yo-yo thing is more unhealthy than just staying fat.

I'm finding this thread vaguely troubling.

I believe we each need to find what works for us, so I tend to not like "you
must" statements.  On the other hand, except for the tone, I completely agreed
with everything the OP said.

There is an article in the April edition of Real Simple magazine that,
essentially, advocates a low-carb, sugar-free diet not for weight loss, but for
general health.  I really liked that a lot.  And ideally, everyone here will
someday reach their goal weight and will be eating for general health, not
weight loss.  The low-carb WOE should still be the best option then.

Almost every "bad" calorie I used to eat was accompanied by sugar, because I
was addicted to pastries.  Pastries = sugar, trans-fats, and flour.  Ick.  My
own option as I lose weight is to stay away from substitutes to the extent
possible.  I'm even trying to limit my Splenda intake.  But if you can't or
don't want to do that and find something else that works for you, go with what
works.  I'm just too skeptical to trust the substitutes and low-carb foods.  I
don't want to think "sweets" of any kind, because then I'll make excuses for
myself down the road and may resume eating sugar.  YMMV.

My first week on low-carb, I was completely flummoxed at meal time.  One day, I
even skipped lunch because I couldn't figure out what to eat.  A change in
eating habits requires some thought, which should have been obvious but wasn't.
But that thinking is part of the commitment to being healthier, whether I'm
losing weight or at goal weight.

I don't know if any of that makes sense or not, but this whole process is
proving to be far more multi-faceted and complex than I imagined it would be.
But the payoff should be enormous in terms of better health, which I think was
underlying the original post.  Substitutes are a crutch; if you can't do
without them, that's your decision, but they might prove self-defeating in the
long run.
Daria
166/148/140
sugar-free since 2/1/04
low-carb since 2/17/04