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Weight Loss Forum / Low Carb / March 2004seeking exercise advice
My original exercise goal was just "move my body three times a week." That was OK for a while. I did three main things for exercise. I did various classes at the Y - though my schedule has been too erratic to keep any class up long enough to get good at anything. Swimming - and while both the amount I can swim without taking a break and the total amount I swim has improved, I think I've reached a limit that is not going to continue to improve until I either lose a big bunch of weight or quit smoking (we're scheduled to quit April 1st). Finally, I've been doing the machines at the fitness center. I'm doing a leg press, leg extension, leg curl, chest press, seated row, arm extension and arm curl. The trainer had me start with 2 sets of 12, and while I've increased weights on all of the exercises to some degree, improvement is kind of slow at this point. My original goal of just "move my body three times a week" isn't good enough anymore, I want to see more specific improvement. I particularly want to focus on strength training as I don't think I'll see loads of cardio improvement until a lot of weight and the cigs are gone. What I'm doing is not improving things greatly. The amount of weight I can lift on both the arm extension and arm curl is really pitiful. Luna's "girly girl" characterization fits. I definetly leave the gym a tad sore each time, so I am doing *something* - but it's really just not enough as I'm dissatisfied with the improvement. I also want to go to the Y *every* day. It genuinely fits my schedule better than trying to get there 3 or 4 times a week. I just reread Bernstein for other reasons and am curious if anyone has used his exercise plan. The basic idea is to start with a weight that you can only do 3-4 reps with, tire the muscle quickly, reduce weight without sotpping, tire it again, and continue like that until you're a whimpering, quivering lump. (I am editorializing slightly here). The idea is not to rest between reps and basically to just work the heck out of the muscle. He suggests exercising daily, and switching between upper body and lower body to let your muscles go through catabolism/anabolism which he says takes about 48 hours to complete. I was thinking along the lines of doing my swimming first each day (as I can't swim worth sh.t once my muscles are tired), then doing the stuff I'm already doing with his approach. Any thoughts or comments on this idea? Also, I'd like some feedback from the machines vs. free weights folks. Yes, I've been to http://www.stumptuous.com and read the whole site, but am unclear what exactly is the benefit of free weights over machines. The web site is big on evangelizing that girls can do free weights too... and that's fine... except why exactly would I want to? If I were to switch to free weights, I'd have to make an appointment with a trainer as I am completly clueless. And I frankly find the idea rather intimidating in comparison to machines. These are minor objections which would be easily overcome if I had a solid reason for choosing free weights over machines. So thoughts? > Also, I'd like some feedback from the machines vs. free weights folks. > Yes, I've been to http://www.stumptuous.com and read the whole site, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > objections which would be easily overcome if I had a solid reason for > choosing free weights over machines. So thoughts? http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=free+weights+m achines&btnG=Google+Search > http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=free+weights+m > achines&btnG=Google+Search On the free weights versus machines... the third link was to this article: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1990Sep19.215114.408%40onecom&output=gplain Which is a good answer to the question, I'm just posting in case someone else following the thread wants to know too. For the majority of people, machine lifts are just fine. If you start lifting some seriously heavy weight, then you might run into some problems. It looks like you're doing too many types of exercises, and too many isolation exercise. You could get by on just the leg press, chest press, and seated row. You could also start looking at a different type of progression, if you feel that you're stagnating with your present system. There are multitudinous systems out there that have been successful for someone, and all you have to do is figure out which one you'd like to try. The basic concept here is that you have to enjoy it. Most people enjoy what they see progress in. One example of a system to try: after a decent warm-up (like swimmin) do only one work set of each of those exercises that I previously mentioned. Each work set will have a goal of 50 reps. Take 10 pounds or so off each exercise where you've been doing 2 sets of 12. Over the next several weeks try to build up to where you can do 50 reps with that weight, then add 10 pounds and start off with 20 reps or so again, building up to 50. 50 is not a magic number here, it's just one possibility out of infinite possbilities. Some people find that they really detest endurance work. If you're one of them, perhaps you'll have to look into a higher weight, lower rep scheme. > My original exercise goal was just "move my body three times a week." > That was OK for a while. I did three main things for exercise. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > objections which would be easily overcome if I had a solid reason for > choosing free weights over machines. So thoughts? <a bunch of useful advice snipped> BTW, JC... thanks for ignoring my earlier insistence that you not answer my posts; I appreciate the advice and your expertise here. > <a bunch of useful advice snipped> > > BTW, JC... thanks for ignoring my earlier insistence that you not > answer my posts; I appreciate the advice and your expertise here. Don't get the idea that we're going to be swapping spit in the shower now. ;-) JC Der Koenig burbled across the ether: >> "JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message > news:<kYj7c.846$Z32.119@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > ;-) <snort!> Boy am I glad that I'd put down my drink or somebody would owe me a new keyboard by now!  Signaturerevek www.geocities.com/tanirevek/LowCarb.html lowcarbing since June 2002 5'2" 41 F 165+/too much/size seven petite please ("BallisticMissileIntercept.exe: This program has caused an exception 0D at address 6969:0000 in module CalculateTrajectory. Bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your a.s goodbye.") The only reason to do free weights over machines is that free weights cause you to have to use your core or stabilizer muscles to make sure that you don't fall over. One benefit is that you are using your abs. You can still make sure these are being exercised if you are careful not to "rock" when you are using the machines and keep your abs sucked in Besides that, you are seriously kicking your a.s... be patient, it takes a couple of months to make progress. I admire your dedication so much! Jennifer 230/217/140 > My original exercise goal was just "move my body three times a week." > That was OK for a while. I did three main things for exercise. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > objections which would be easily overcome if I had a solid reason for > choosing free weights over machines. So thoughts? Perhaps adding a different form of cardio would be beneficial too? I've always heard that swimming doesn't do much to lower body fat although it does help you get in better shape. If weight loss if your goal, add the elliptical trainer, treadmill, and/or bike to your routine some days and swim on others. Jennifer 260/214/135 LC since 8/4/03 > Perhaps adding a different form of cardio would be beneficial too? I've > always [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 260/214/135 > LC since 8/4/03 I highly recommend varying cardio routines. I _thought_ I was getting a good leg workout from the combo of weight machines, aerobics, and yoga, but then I played soccer with the kids at work one day, and hoo boy did my legs ache the next day. Every time I try a new activity, I hurt the next day, in a good way. SignatureMichelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws. > Perhaps adding a different form of cardio would be beneficial too? I've always > heard that swimming doesn't do much to lower body fat although it does help you > get in better shape. If weight loss if your goal, add the elliptical trainer, > treadmill, and/or bike to your routine some days and swim on others. Well, this may sound strange here, but weight loss is *not* one of my goals. Though I can't reach my goals without weight loss occuring, that isn't my focus. My goal is to buy raw land and clear it and build a home with my husband and raise my own food and live an entirely different life than the ones I've experienced in academia and corporate America. My diabetes, general weakness and lack of endurance interfere with those goals. This is why I'm concerned about not building strength with my current workouts - I have some lumberjacking in my future and I do not have a lumberjacking kind of body. Rather, I have a body that tires when beating egg whites or whipping cream by hand. I'm a wuss who finds sawing 2 by 4's strenuous but wants to build fencing for a few acres. I want to work really hard physically and feel *good* doing so and I don't have a body that can do those things, so I need to reshape my body. It's like going to college to become a biochemist... or learning databases to become a programmer, just part of the prerequisites for the job I want. But your point regarding cardio is well-taken. I *do* bike some... I have a stationary bike attached to a grain grinder here, though I don't "count" that as exercise as it's just household chores. And obviously, there's much less of that chore since I'm low-carbing. I also have a real, old-fashioned non-stationary bike to use once the snow and mud clear up a bit. That will be an interesting challenge since my house is a half mile from pavement. I used to like bike riding and look forward to liking it again. I chose swimming because I've always liked swimming. Especially in winter, it feels very decadent to be swimming in a heated pool with snow on the ground outside. And frankly, swimming is one of the easiest cardios to do while overweight... fat floats. But I don't really think I will be doing *much* with cardio for some time. In April, when we quit smoking, I expect to see a big jump in my capabilities. But after that, it will just be a while before I will do much more than that. But it seems to me with some proper focus on the strength-training bits, I can make larger gains than my workouts have been providing. I just need a different way to go about it because I *can't* lift more weight for 2 sets of 12 than I'm doing and progress is slow and I want to accomplish more. I suspect the trainer gave me a very generic "New Year's Resolution" training and is probably shocked that I'm still there regularly at all. I will likely try both JC's and Bernstein's suggestions over the next few weeks as JC's seems to focus on endurance and Bernstein's on strength... and I want both. And heck, even just variety to keep me interested would be good... the current workout has got a bit boring. :: rapsmom1@aol.communityzz (Rapsmom1) wrote in message :: news:<20040321151238.25986.00000128@mb-m23.aol.com>... [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] :: And heck, even just variety to keep me :: interested would be good... the current workout has got a bit boring. Benstreins workout is not a traditional strength building routine, but newbies generally see an increase in strength from doing any kind of workout with weights, for a while at least. Here's another appraoch to try to help break up the boredom: http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html It changes every two weeks, different rep ranges and different weights. I wouldn't suggest you try it if you haven't been lifing more than 6 months or so, but I'm suggesting it since you say you thing you've stalled out on progress....but keep in mind that progress int he weight room is based on many factors, age, gender, how you eat (weight gain or weight loss), how you train, how you rest, etc. Since weight loss is not a goal, I take it that getting stronger is. HST is geared for those who want muscle growth, but it has elements that promote increases in strength, too. And since it changes every two weeks, that might help avoid boredom. Here is the work out plan that I figured out for myself that is working pretty well for being a novice. It's a mix of machines and free weights. My goals are probably differant for you though. I'm working on building bulk to raies my basal metabolism so i'm doing more weight as less reps. Each exercise is 3 sets of 6 reps. All exercises are listed in order done. Upper Body- Lat Pulldowns Incline Chest Fly Lat Raise Tricep Pushdowns w/rope Concentration Curls Lower Body- Leg Curls Leg Extentions Leg Press Calf Raises (using the leg press machine) Weighted Ab Crunches (hold a plate on your chest) Lower Back Extentsions Monday-Upper Body Tuesday-Lower Body Wensday-Rest Thursday-Upper Body Friday-Lower Body Saturday-Rest Sunday-Rest When I say rest I don't just sit around the house but i'll go for a walk or something like that. On the free weight thing DO NOT be intimidated. I know the free weight area often looks like a men's only musclehead club. Truth of the matter is Most of thoose bit intimidating dumbells dont do much more than collect dust. Like someone mentioned earlier when you work with free weights your body is forced to stablize it's self which is beneficial to alot more muscles than just what a machine focuses on. Plus they can actually be fun! There as so many variations with free weight that would just not be possible with machines. You also don't have to spend 5 minutes adusting free weights to fit properly like with machines. > My original exercise goal was just "move my body three times a week." > That was OK for a while. I did three main things for exercise. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > objections which would be easily overcome if I had a solid reason for > choosing free weights over machines. So thoughts? > My original exercise goal was just "move my body three times a week." > That was OK for a while. I did three main things for exercise. [snip] > If I were to switch to free weights, I'd have to make an appointment > with a trainer as I am completly clueless. And I frankly find the > idea rather intimidating in comparison to machines. These are minor > objections which would be easily overcome if I had a solid reason for > choosing free weights over machines. So thoughts? One resource about which you may already know is www.stumptuous.com/weights.html . It might help demystify the free weights a little, and give you some ideas for beginning freeweight workouts. She's also got some comments on cardio exercise and getting fit generally. carla > Swimming - and while both the amount I can swim without taking a break > and the total amount I swim has improved, I think I've reached a limit > that is not going to continue to improve until I either lose a big > bunch of weight or quit smoking (we're scheduled to quit April 1st). I would suggest you do some form of weight bearing cardio exercise (like walking) for the benefit of getting some impact on your bone density. > Finally, I've been doing the machines at the fitness center. I'm > doing a leg press, leg extension, leg curl, chest press, seated row, > arm extension and arm curl. The trainer had me start with 2 sets of > 12, and while I've increased weights on all of the exercises to some > degree, improvement is kind of slow at this point. I would suggest you consider dropping the leg extension and leg curl and just doing more on the leg press. > My original goal of just "move my body three times a week" isn't good > enough anymore, I want to see more specific improvement. I > particularly want to focus on strength training as I don't think I'll > see loads of cardio improvement until a lot of weight and the cigs are > gone. I think doing cardio while your dropping the cigarettes is a better plan. You'll get reminder on why you shouldn't smoke each time you do cardio, plus the stress reduction from the cardio couldn't hurt. > I just reread Bernstein for other reasons and am curious if anyone has > used his exercise plan. The basic idea is to start with a weight that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > between upper body and lower body to let your muscles go through > catabolism/anabolism which he says takes about 48 hours to complete. What he's suggesting is called "drop sets" which isn't a bad idea. However if you're not very strong then you might want to aim more for a weight you can do at 8-10 reps before you drop weight. Switching from upper to lower isn't such a bad idea either, but I would suggest something more along the lines of doing upper, lower, day off WT, upper, lower, two days off WT -- doing cardio if you want on the off WT days. More WT doesn't equal more gains if you can't recover very well, and if you're dieting and older then your recovery is compromised. > I was thinking along the lines of doing my swimming first each day (as > I can't swim worth sh.t once my muscles are tired), then doing the > stuff I'm already doing with his approach. Any thoughts or comments > on this idea? You like swimming and that's great. But experiment, go a week where you do some form of cardio for a 5 minute warm-up, then WT and then swim to see if you're able to get more out of your WT. I would suspect that you might. Then try a week with the reverse and be objective on the results. > Also, I'd like some feedback from the machines vs. free weights folks. > Yes, I've been to http://www.stumptuous.com and read the whole site, > but am unclear what exactly is the benefit of free weights over > machines. The web site is big on evangelizing that girls can do free > weights too... and that's fine... except why exactly would I want to? With free weights you use more stabilize muscles. You also have to focus a little more, being more attentive to your form. I do both machines and free weights, but feel I get more practical strength gains from free weights. I don't know when I've had to lift or move a weight while in a seated position. > If I were to switch to free weights, I'd have to make an appointment > with a trainer as I am completly clueless. And I frankly find the > idea rather intimidating in comparison to machines. These are minor > objections which would be easily overcome if I had a solid reason for > choosing free weights over machines. So thoughts? Pick up a copy of "Weight Training for Dummies" (don't take offense because I suggest this book to a lot of people) its easy to digest, covers a lot of ground, and introduces most generally used techniques/plans. Really work on teaching yourself just the basic bicep curl with free weights. Get use to the using dumbbells and staying set & stable -- then work with someone who'll show you more moves, maybe learning just a few at a time. You don't have to switch your routine wholesale. Good luck. SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm >> Swimming - and while both the amount I can swim without taking a break >> and the total amount I swim has improved, I think I've reached a limit [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I would suggest you consider dropping the leg extension and leg curl and > just doing more on the leg press. Dropping the leg curl? There would be no leg biceps movement. That's inadvisable. You want to attempt to train each push/pull muscle group the same, if possible. With no leg biceps movement, you risk overdeveloping the quads in comparison to the leg biceps. Your leg extension and leg curl weights should be relatively close. SignatureBob in CT Remove ".x" to reply > Dropping the leg curl? There would be no leg biceps movement. That's > inadvisable. You want to attempt to train each push/pull muscle group > the same, if possible. With no leg biceps movement, you risk > overdeveloping the quads in comparison to the leg biceps. Your leg > extension and leg curl weights should be relatively close. I've yet to see anyone who's new to training that's had quad strength anywhere near the strength they have in their hamstrings -- in fact I usually see it at around a third. That is especially true of people who have been overweight, their hamstrings work extra hard just moving them around. So I don't think the OP is going to develop any problems with a strength imbalance anytime soon time. I'm hoping that the OP would do well and get a large amount of strength from doing the leg press (which do make use of the hamstrings as a dynamic stabilizer since its a compound movement) at a high intensity. Then graduate to doing squats from there instead of isolation work like leg extensions and leg curls. SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm :: On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:17:17 GMT, RRzVRR <rrZvrr@ix.netcom.com> :: wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] ::: :: Dropping the leg curl? Absolutely. :: There would be no leg biceps movement. :: That's inadvisable. Better to use a compound movement. IMO, isolation work for someone at this level is a waste of time. A leg press followed later by squats is the way to go. For lots of reasons, too. You want to attempt to train each push/pull :: muscle group the same, if possible. With no leg biceps movement, :: you risk overdeveloping the quads in comparison to the leg biceps. :: Your leg extension and leg curl weights should be relatively close. Leg extensions can get people in trouble, quickly, if you aren't careful. IMO, both of those movements should be replaced by something like a press or a squat. And if hamstring work is needed, SLDL with light weights are way better than leg curls. http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/BBStraightLegDeadlift.html > What he's suggesting is called "drop sets" which isn't a bad idea. I meant to add that you should do some research on-line regarding drop sets before you start doing them. SignatureRudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm Thanks everyone for the feedback; I've learned a lot here. Also thanks for the terminology; it helps a lot knowing what to Google. I did some reading on drop sets, which I do think I want as it looks like a part of my workout where I can get some fast improvement which will be encouraging. I also read up some on what you guys mean by isolation exercises and see why I don't need to be wasting my time with those at my current stage of fitness* and see why compound exercises make more sense for me at this stage* since they'll maximize my gains and encourage me. I am going to keep the arm extension and arm curl though... and do them as endurance sets as JC described. That my arms get easily tired doing cooking chores is probably the bit that is most annoying about my current stage of fitness* so I figure to attack that weakness head-on, which seems to me to be what isolation exercises are for. What the heck, it'll be fun. My plan is I'm going to stick to the machines for another few months, then maybe look at free weights. I think I understand the benefits of free weights, but that it's not real important for me yet at my current stage of fitness*. Also, I think machines will be easier for drop sets since it's just a matter of moving a pin to change weights. I figure I'll give it a few months before making an appointment to have the fitness trainer teach me curls and squats and other intimidating-looking free weight stuff. And I figure with all the good arguments for more variety in cardio... I'd do some treadmill work a few days a week. What the heck, the machines are there anyways and while it's not as fun as swimming, it's not painful or anything. I expect anything I do cardio-wise to be a matter of longer-term gains though - I'm not counting on much improvement here. I do want to exercise every single day as it makes it more of a habit than 3-4 times a week, but I don't particularly want to spend gobs of time either as I'm in it for having the strong body for other purposes, not cause I'm "into" the gym thing in itself. There's no getting around cardio taking some time, and I'm not expecting encouraging gains there for a while - so the rest of my workout is going to focus on fast strength gains. I'm just going to do a little weight work, but do it really hard. *current stage of fitness = lame-a.s, wussy pre-beginner |
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