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Afraid of being normal weight again?

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Marsha - 22 Mar 2004 02:19 GMT
Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
for me is because I really don't want to be normal weight.
Without getting into too much detail, all I got was grief
when I was a younger woman (nice chest, small waist, some
hips, and nice legs), and I didn't handle the male attention
very well.  Now that this WOE is working very well for me
and I can really picture getting back to a normal weight,
it's a little frightening and I'm getting a little nervous.
 Kinda silly, really, since I'm older, but nevertheless old
stuff kinda dies hard.

Marsha/Ohio
Bob M - 22 Mar 2004 02:38 GMT
> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the reason so many
> weight-loss attempts have failed in the past for me is because I really
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Marsha/Ohio

Why didn't you handle the male attention well?  Personally, I'm looking
forward to being my old weight again, although I think I'm in better shape
now than I've ever been.

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Bob M in CT remove 'x.' to reply

Marsha - 22 Mar 2004 02:53 GMT
>> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the reason so many
>> weight-loss attempts have failed in the past for me is because I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> forward to being my old weight again, although I think I'm in better
> shape now than I've ever been.

Um, it was workplace sexual abuse and it didn't set well.
By that, I mean some physical stuff.  That was before all
the new rules and such.  I'm not really comfortable talking
about it.  There is always that thought in the back of your
mind that if you didn't look attractive, it never would have
happened.  The normal wolf whistle stuff and comments didn't
bother me, but this was different.

Marsha/Ohio
Doug Freyburger - 23 Mar 2004 00:22 GMT
> > Why didn't you handle the male attention well?
>
> Um, it was workplace sexual abuse and it didn't set well.
> By that, I mean some physical stuff.  That was before all
> the new rules and such.

Bingo.  The workplace isn't like that any more.  Have this
happen, end up owning the place.  Buy a recorder and you're
set.  Seriously.  No games here, don't play the victim
play the owner.
Cheri - 22 Mar 2004 02:39 GMT
Well, depending on your age, (I'm almost 58) there's really no worry of
having the body that we had when we were younger. ;-) I do think that it
takes awhile for the mind to catch up to the new body size though. Best
of luck reaching your goal.

--
Cheri
Type 2, no meds for now.

Marsha wrote in message ...
>Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
>reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Marsha/Ohio
Marsha - 22 Mar 2004 02:58 GMT
> Well, depending on your age, (I'm almost 58) there's really no worry of
> having the body that we had when we were younger. ;-) I do think that it
> takes awhile for the mind to catch up to the new body size though. Best
> of luck reaching your goal.

Well, that's the problem.  I'm afraid this WOE is working so
well that I will actually reach my goal and be at a weight
that I haven't been at for 25 years.  That's scary.

Marsha/Ohio
Roger Zoul - 22 Mar 2004 03:30 GMT
:: Cheri wrote:
::
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
:: well that I will actually reach my goal and be at a weight
:: that I haven't been at for 25 years.  That's scary.

You'll get over that -- I promise :)
Roger Zoul - 22 Mar 2004 03:02 GMT
Marsha,

What about your SO?  Wouldn't you want to be your best for that person?
What about YOU? Forget everyone else -- they don't factor in.

And what's wrong with attention?  Practice makes perfect -- set dealing well
with male attention as a goal.

:: Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
:: reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
::
:: Marsha/Ohio
Marsha - 23 Mar 2004 00:35 GMT
> Marsha,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And what's wrong with attention?  Practice makes perfect -- set dealing well
> with male attention as a goal.

My SO is wonderful and he takes me however I am, warts and
all, just as I take him.  He only wants what is best for me
healthwise, although I'm sure he love less of me, too  : )

There is nothing wrong with attention.  I just didn't want
those particular memories brought back again.

Marsha/Ohio
Roger Zoul - 23 Mar 2004 23:19 GMT
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Marsha,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
:: all, just as I take him.  He only wants what is best for me
:: healthwise, although I'm sure he love less of me, too  : )

:)

:: There is nothing wrong with attention.  I just didn't want
:: those particular memories brought back again.

I understand.
revek - 22 Mar 2004 03:08 GMT
Marsha  burbled across the ether:
> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>   Kinda silly, really, since I'm older, but nevertheless old
> stuff kinda dies hard.

No it's not silly.  In my opinion, you need to work on that aspect of
yourself, or this diet will 'fail' too, if that is the real reason you
have so much trouble.

I myself have problems with perfectionism and struggle with
overcontrolling what I eat. (Yeah, I know, anorexia and fat butt --
disconnect!  But it's complicated.)

Lowcarb was working a little too well for me as I lost 30 pounds in
three months and I only had another 20 to go to reach my ideal weight.
It dropped off so fast and so easily I was scared I was heading down the
same path to the place I lived in since I was a kid.  So I put the
brakes on, and am trying to just maintain, while learning to deal with
stress and being less than perfect in other ways than starving myself.
Some days I do good, some days, not so.  It seems in the last year I
have tried every way to abuse food as a stopgap to actually dealing with
stress first.  At least with lowcarb, I *am* maintaining my weight.  But
I am much better at handling the stress now than I was two years ago.
So that weight loss *will* resume someday soon.

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           2002 5'2" 41 F  165+/too much/size seven petite please
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jk - 22 Mar 2004 04:28 GMT
> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Marsha/Ohio

  Wear big old ugly clothes, grow a mustache, and do it for your health. Or
better yet, realize that what's in the past is OVER.  Start a new way of
looking at life as of now. That being said.... you sound like a good
candidate for some therapy Marsha, but I'm sure you already know that.

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www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
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curt - 22 Mar 2004 04:40 GMT
This is common.  Many people feel a little strange when people lose weight
and look better.  Other people may attack you in subtle ways when you lose
weight and you become competition to some women that may have not considered
you competition or some people may not like you to get attention, due to
your weight loss.  I think much of this is on people's minds when they lose
weight, or at least it has been on my mind.  I would lose weight and as soon
as people would comment on my weight loss, I would start gaining again.  I
don't know if you can relate to what I am saying or not, but this is just
how it is for me.  Sure you do get more attention for a while, but you will
get over the hump once you are at a lower weight for a while things will
settle down.

People will get used to you being thinner and things will be fine.  Keep up
the good work and be healthy and happy.

Curt

> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Marsha/Ohio
Luna - 22 Mar 2004 06:26 GMT
> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Marsha/Ohio

I get what you're saying.  I developed early, and before I got fat I got
plenty of unwanted attention from older males.  I was never what I would
call "molested" but there were some uncomfortable situations I wasn't ready
for.   Anyway, I have had the same fear you describe, though for me it has
less to do with anything that happened in my childhood, and more to do with
just being comfortable with the role of "fat girl."

It's kind of like being in a play.  You have a minor role, but you know
your part well.  Sometimes you're jealous of the lead actress, because she
gets more of the glory.  And then one night she's sick and can't perform,
and you're the understudy, and you have to play the lead!!!  You're excited
because you know this could be your big break and lead to great things, but
on the other hand you don't know the part as well and you're scared of
messing up.

Anyway, that's how I feel sometimes.  Or I feel as if my personality, which
was developed in a fat body, won't fit well in a thin one.  

The thing I have to keep reminding myself of though, is that it doesn't
happen in an instant, as it did in my play metaphor.  I won't wake up thin
all of a sudden.  It happens in stages and you have time to get used to it.  
It slows down the closer you get (for most people) and those stalls can be
a bit of a blessing, give you some time to mentally and emotionally adjust.

Being older is a blessing too, because you have the life experience now, so
whenever you feel scared you can hold it up to yourself and say "See!  I
survived and conquered X, Y, and Z.  I am a strong woman, not a frightened
child.  I've handled tougher things than this adjustment, so I'm sure I can
handle this too."

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I have only 3 flaws.  My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

jpatti - 22 Mar 2004 08:49 GMT
> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>   Kinda silly, really, since I'm older, but nevertheless old
> stuff kinda dies hard.

Most of the nice guys who've replied to you have no idea what a.sholes
*some* guys are and thus don't "get" what you are saying.

And yes, losing weight *does* increase the amount of harassment and
bullshit and aggravation.  No getting around it.  IMO, your fear is
very real - I have the same fear myself.  I'm a bitch, which helps a
great deal.  I greatly prefer *not* having to be a bitch though, which
is at least part of my personal decision to homestead and live
remotely from most of society.  I don't have to be a bitch here with
the family and animals and such... it's safe.

Not writing for any reason except to say... your fear isn't nuts.  If
you have it in you, becoming a bitch may work well for you too.  Those
sorts of guys look for easy victims, making damned sure you aren't
easy to harass discourages them tremendously.

I suggest making a list of as many creative ways that you can
insinuate that someone has an incredibly tiny penis.  That way you're
"armed" and ready.

And imagine... imagine that *you* are the sort of person that people
back away from when you walk up to them on the street, that you're a
scary, intimidating person.  Imagine you're tall and strong and
heaivly armed, that people cringe and move away from you.  *Think*
about being that scary, intimidating person when you walk around in
public, particularly anywhere you feel unsafe.  Getting into that
headspace... you give off vibes that you are not to be messed with.
It works.

Being a bitch can be *fun*, ya know.  It provides a guilt-free way to
deal with the normal bitchiness of PMS... instead of being nasty to
your family and friends, go find someone who *deserves* your nastiness
and let loose.  I figure that is what a.sholes are here for.  ;)
revek - 22 Mar 2004 09:20 GMT
jpatti  burbled across the ether:
>> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
>> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Most of the nice guys who've replied to you have no idea what a.sholes
> *some* guys are and thus don't "get" what you are saying.

Men don't often feel vulnerable.  Threatened, yes, but not vulnerable,
not like they couldn't defend themselves if needed.

> And yes, losing weight *does* increase the amount of harassment and
> bullshit and aggravation.  No getting around it.  IMO, your fear is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> remotely from most of society.  I don't have to be a bitch here with
> the family and animals and such... it's safe.

Me being short has always drawn the tall ones.  Big suckers.

> Not writing for any reason except to say... your fear isn't nuts.  If
> you have it in you, becoming a bitch may work well for you too.  Those
> sorts of guys look for easy victims, making damned sure you aren't
> easy to harass discourages them tremendously.

They can sense it somehow.  Which is why I think the suggestion below to
send out "I'm a badass" vibes is a good one.

> I suggest making a list of as many creative ways that you can
> insinuate that someone has an incredibly tiny penis.  That way you're
> "armed" and ready.

That could backfire.

> And imagine... imagine that *you* are the sort of person that people
> back away from when you walk up to them on the street, that you're a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> headspace... you give off vibes that you are not to be messed with.
> It works.

> Being a bitch can be *fun*, ya know.  It provides a guilt-free way to
> deal with the normal bitchiness of PMS... instead of being nasty to
> your family and friends, go find someone who *deserves* your nastiness
> and let loose.  I figure that is what a.sholes are here for.  ;)

Heh.  True.  You also tend to believe in your own strength a little more
the more practice you get in putting your foot down.
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revek   www.geocities.com/tanirevek/LowCarb.html  lowcarbing since June
2002
           5'2" 41 F  165+/too much/size seven petite please
That's a generic frustration, whenever you pin your satisfaction on what
other people feel or how they react.  Very tempting to do it, though.
If they'd just feel bad about how wrong they are, I know I'd be much
happier.  Well, pretty sure.  ---Wayne Throop

Sunshyne - 23 Mar 2004 04:32 GMT
> jpatti  burbled across the ether:
> >> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> Heh.  True.  You also tend to believe in your own strength a little more
> the more practice you get in putting your foot down.

Something that works well with a male harrasser at work, is inviting
him to a motel room. Get him into a nice position. Climb on top of his
face, and don't get up until you are satisfied. Do it till he passes
out. Then, take his clothes and all, drive away, while laughing and
satisfied. That is being a real nice bitch.
revek - 23 Mar 2004 04:43 GMT
Sunshyne  burbled across the ether:
> Something that works well with a male harrasser at work, is inviting
> him to a motel room. Get him into a nice position. Climb on top of his
> face, and don't get up until you are satisfied. Do it till he passes
> out. Then, take his clothes and all, drive away, while laughing and
> satisfied. That is being a real nice bitch.

Too bold for me. :)  I'd worry that I'd gotten a physical abuser rather
than your garden variety jerk.  Not to mention that if you go that far,
there's no way you can get away with saying no to what he will
definitely want.  Then he's been 'rewarded' for being a jerk, so he'll
keep doing it.  Not good.
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revek   www.geocities.com/tanirevek/LowCarb.html  lowcarbing since June
           2002 5'2" 41 F  165+/too much/size seven petite please
Only one shopping day left until tomorrow!

Ignoramus11750 - 22 Mar 2004 15:13 GMT
> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>   Kinda silly, really, since I'm older, but nevertheless old
> stuff kinda dies hard.

Since you are not so young anymore, being slim won't attract men to the
same extent as it used to. So  I would suggest, therefore, to not give
male attention as much importance and instead look at the health aspects
of weight loss.

You can also always pad yourself with pillows if male attention is a
problem, while retaining the benefits of lower weight.

More seriously, try defining rationally where it is that you want to be,
and get there. Maybe you are one of those rare individuals who do not
benefit from being slim, in the final analysis.

i
Crafting Mom - 22 Mar 2004 15:24 GMT
I used to have the same hangups, for similar reasons. I'm married now,
and given that the only person who has any business being interested in
my body whether fat or thin, is my husband, it takes the pressure off.

If you're married or with someone, that can help, but simply being more
mature is also a bit more of a security blanket.

CM

>Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
>reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Marsha/Ohio
TdN - 22 Mar 2004 16:28 GMT
> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> and I can really picture getting back to a normal weight,
> it's a little frightening and I'm getting a little nervous.

You're a grownup now.  You have the self-confidence to advocate for
yourself if other people are inappropriate.

You can also find clothes that project a "stylish, but not trying to
look sexy" image, which is harder for younger women.  Loose-ish
twinsets, knee-length skirts, and low-heeled pumps, for example, are
all incredibly stylish this fall, but they certainly don't send the
"trying to attract random male attention" message that a lot of styles
marketed to young women send.

Glasses also help.  I'm almost forty, and I find that when I wear
contacts instead of glasses, I get way more unwanted male attention
than I do when I wear my (attractive, stylish, but somehow
off-putting) glasses.

Here's the thing--if you lose the weight and are unhappy with the
unwanted attention, you can take other steps (getting an unflattering
hairdo, wearing unstylish, loose-fitting clothing, not wearing makeup)
to signal your lack of interest in being a sex object.  None of those
approaches will have a negative impact on your health.

And there's always the LL Bean catalogue--my brother refers to it as
"WASP birth control" because the clothing is so determinedly un-sexy.

I do sympathize with you--your story is very resonant with my own
experiences. But remember, the most important thing is your health.
Wouldn't you rather be a healthy, fit person who chooses to dress to
de-emphasize her sexuality than an overweight, unhealthy person who
clings to a concealing "garment" of flesh?

T.
Roger Zoul - 22 Mar 2004 17:35 GMT
:: Marsha <mas@sev.org> wrote in message
:: news:<EqSdndKreejUosPd4p2dnA@buckeye-express.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
::
:: T.

Boy -- after reading all of these replies -- all I can say is that I had no
idea there were so many jerks in the world.  It all makes me wonder what
world I live in.....I mean -- this just doesn't compute...I see attractive
women all the time, but have never felt the slightest inclination to harass
them.  It's beyond imagination...
Bob in CT - 22 Mar 2004 17:40 GMT
> :: Marsha <mas@sev.org> wrote in message
> :: news:<EqSdndKreejUosPd4p2dnA@buckeye-express.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> harass
> them.  It's beyond imagination...

Me either.  Also, supposedly the women who attract men are those who throw
out signals.  See:

http://www.canoe.ca/LifewiseHeartLove00/0315_flirt.html

So, if you don't throw out signals, you won't attract men.  Personally, a
woman would have to give me some type of signal like these, or I would
never approach her.

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Luna - 22 Mar 2004 18:09 GMT
> Me either.  Also, supposedly the women who attract men are those who throw
> out signals.  See:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> woman would have to give me some type of signal like these, or I would
> never approach her.

You don't have to throw out signals to attract men.  Back when I was in the
170s, still pretty damn heavy, I was walking back from the grocery store on
my lunch break at work, wearing baggy black pants with butter stains on
them, baggy work polo shirt, also with butter stains, big clunky boots,
glasses, no makeup, carrying two bags of groceries and my purse, just
walking and concentrating on making it through the parking lot without
getting hit by cars.   A car pulled up and blocked my path, guy rolled down
the window and started flirting.  He said something like "My friend thinks
you're hot." I said, without smiling "Ok, but I have to get back to work."  
He and his friend were all "Get in, we'll drive you back."  I said no
thanks, and tried to walk around their car and they pulled up more and kept
blocking me and then driving alongside me until they saw the shopping
center security truck coming.  

That was just one of several instances in which I've received unwanted male
attention when I was not dressed provocatively or giving off any "signals."  
Unless looking straight ahead, not making eye contact, not smiling, and
looking like you're in a hurry to get where you're going are signals.

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Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws.  My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

jpatti - 23 Mar 2004 04:05 GMT
> > Me either.  Also, supposedly the women who attract men are those who throw
> > out signals.  See:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > woman would have to give me some type of signal like these, or I would
> > never approach her.

<snip>

> That was just one of several instances in which I've received unwanted male
> attention when I was not dressed provocatively or giving off any "signals."  
> Unless looking straight ahead, not making eye contact, not smiling, and
> looking like you're in a hurry to get where you're going are signals.

This sort of sh.t started happenning to me when I was 12 years old.
My daughter developed earlier and it startd for her at 11.

I most definetly was not throwing off any signals at that age, and
definetly not to *adults*.
Crafting Mom - 23 Mar 2004 04:39 GMT
>> > Me either.  Also, supposedly the women who attract men are those who throw
>> > out signals.  See:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>I most definetly was not throwing off any signals at that age, and
>definetly not to *adults*.

True. There are some people who are just "like that" no matter
whether the receiver "deserves it" or not.  It takes all kinds
in this world.  Some people truly are baffled by the harassment
they get. "But, what was she wearing?", is, I hope, by now an
obsolete argument...

CM
April Goodwin-Smith - 23 Mar 2004 07:38 GMT
> > Luna wrote:
> >> > Me either.  Also, supposedly the women who attract men
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> <snip> "But, what was she wearing?", is, I hope, by now an
> obsolete argument...

Heh.

I wait for the bus a lot, and I often wait for the bus in
inclement weather.  More than once while waiting for a bus,
at what is pretty obviously a bus stop, I have been asked my
price by guys with more money than brains (not that that makes
them well-to-do, you understand).  I have always been a large
woman.  When waiting for the bus I tend to wear baggy corduroy
trousers, big water repellent woolly capes that look like horse
blankets, and bobble hats.

Really.  I look like an ambulatory burlap sack of potatoes.

"What was she wearing?"  Ho.

April.
Put out the cat.
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like things than things.  Well known fact."
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BJ in Texas - 22 Mar 2004 17:43 GMT
> Boy -- after reading all of these replies -- all I can say is
> that I had no idea there were so many jerks in the world.  It
> all makes me wonder what world I live in.....I mean -- this
> just doesn't compute...I see attractive women all the time,
> but have never felt the slightest inclination to harass them.
> It's beyond imagination...

Apparently I live in the same world as you Roger.... I hear
people complain about harassment.

BJ
April Goodwin-Smith - 22 Mar 2004 22:56 GMT
> > Boy -- after reading all of these replies -- all I can say is
> > that I had no idea there were so many jerks in the world.  It
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Apparently I live in the same world as you Roger.... I hear
> people complain about harassment.

Well, since it doesn't happen to you, it must not be
true, eh?  Childbirth must be an urban myth also.
Explains a lot, really.

April.
Put out the cat.
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"Things that try to look like things often do look more
like things than things.  Well known fact."
Esmerelda Weatherwax  (Pratchett 1988)

Marsha - 23 Mar 2004 00:51 GMT
>>Boy -- after reading all of these replies -- all I can say is
>>that I had no idea there were so many jerks in the world.  It
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> BJ

To be fair, BJ, some women will complain about anything they
perceive as harassment.  If a guy says "You look nice
today", they'll complain <shrug>

Marsha/Ohio
Cheri - 23 Mar 2004 20:23 GMT
Me too. I've never been accosted by jerks either. :-)

--
Cheri
Type 2, no meds for now.

BJ in Texas wrote in message ...
>Apparently I live in the same world as you Roger.... I hear
>people complain about harassment.
>
>BJ
Lorelei - 22 Mar 2004 17:51 GMT
"Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c3n4gj$29m838$1@ID-> Boy -- after reading all of these replies -- all I
can say is that I had no
> idea there were so many jerks in the world.  It all makes me wonder what
> world I live in.....I mean -- this just doesn't compute...I see attractive
> women all the time, but have never felt the slightest inclination to harass
> them.  It's beyond imagination...

That is because you are one of the good guys Roger.

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Nancy Howells - 22 Mar 2004 17:58 GMT
> "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c3n4gj$29m838$1@ID-> Boy -- after reading all of these replies --
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> That is because you are one of the good guys Roger.

True.  There are those who harass good-looking women, because they feel
it's their God-given right to do so, and those who harass women who
aren't good looking, because, hey, *someone* has to remind those poor
ugly ladies that they are so - they couldn't *possibly* know, and then
there are those who just spout off at the mouth because.

And those are just the men.  You ought to see what a female jerk can do.

Feeling pessimistic today - but, Roger, people like you really do help
people like me think there might be hope for the world, for what it's
worth.

Last but not least:  I've never been thin, so I don't know what it'll be
like, if I ever get there, but I can say this:  I am definitely scared
to some extent.

Signature

Nancy Howells (don't forget to switch it, and replace the ;) to send mail).

Bob La Londe - 22 Mar 2004 19:13 GMT
> > "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:c3n4gj$29m838$1@ID-> Boy -- after reading all of these replies --
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >
> > That is because you are one of the good guys Roger.

There are also multiple judgement standards.  When I was in my mid twentys I
was fit and trim.  I used to flirt with all the old ladies in my mom's
grocery store.  Just for fun.  Customers and employees alike.  None of them
ever complained.  Most were outwardly friendly and flirted back.  Another
older fellow went to work for my mom and he tried to act the same way I did
to try and fit in to the comradery of the place, and all the ladies who
worked there complained about it.  He acted and said the same things I did
yet from him they felt harrassed.

None of it was particularly out of line.

As I have gotten older I feel uncomfortable flirting and being friendly with
women "for fun" after that experience.

I think sometimes people don't even recognize how much their own bias'
affect how they feel about people.  I absolutely believe harrassment is a
real problem in the world, but I think that sometimes people are
interpreting things wrongly as well.

I once told a lady that she looked very good all dressed up, and a few hours
later her boyfriend came over and picked a fight with me over it.  I wasn't
flirting at all.  In fact I was just complimenting her on how nice she
looked.  I didn't even stop to talk.  Just as I was walking by.  Obviously
the boyfriend was over jealous, but if she hadn't conveyed some other tone
in what she said to him I am sure I wouldn't have had to deal with him.

The world is an interesting place and people are very complicated.

As to the "bitch."  That too is a form of harassment.  I deal with those by
shutting them out of my life entirely.  Fortunately only a very small
percentage of the people I am forced to be around have chosen t o employ
that very destructive defense mechanism.  Strength and self confidence
should not be abusive.  In some ways it is worse than the other harassment
that you are all talking about, because it is often openly inflicted on
males at large.  I sure as hell don't deserve it, and neither do most of the
other guys who feel the bite of that.
jpatti - 23 Mar 2004 04:17 GMT
> There are also multiple judgement standards.  When I was in my mid twentys I
> was fit and trim.  I used to flirt with all the old ladies in my mom's
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> worked there complained about it.  He acted and said the same things I did
> yet from him they felt harrassed.

Flirting isn't the same thing at all.  Flirting is a fun, mutual
experience.  Harassment is more a predatory/prey activity.  It comes
from a very different attitude on the guy's part than flirting does.


> I think sometimes people don't even recognize how much their own bias'
> affect how they feel about people.  I absolutely believe harrassment is a
> real problem in the world, but I think that sometimes people are
> interpreting things wrongly as well.

I think some people do overreact... and that is because they *have*
been harassed.  They don't know you aren't one of the bad guys.


> As to the "bitch."  That too is a form of harassment.  I deal with those by
> shutting them out of my life entirely.  Fortunately only a very small
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> males at large.  I sure as hell don't deserve it, and neither do most of the
> other guys who feel the bite of that.

Most guys never see the bitch though.  It's reserved for necessary
times.

The last time I was *really* bitchy with a stranger, I literally
pulled a weapon on him in the street, smiled sweetly and asked if he
wanted to play.  He was chasing me across the street after I left a
bar where he'd been harassing me for hours.  This is not a "normal"
way of dealing with male "attention" - but most males don't harass me
for hours, hound me out of the place I'm at, and then chase me across
the street either.  This is not a flirting tactic, it's an
intimidaiton tactic.

The "bitch" is *necessary* in this world.  I *taught* my daughter to
be a bitch on purpose.  When she was 14, she was out walking in our
neighborhood when a pizza delivery guy stopped to ask her directions.
She gave him directions and then he asked if she wanted to come party
with him.  She said no and turned away and he grabbed her arm to
physically stop her.  She punched him hard, without holding back in
the slightest.

I'm *glad* she's a bitch.  I'd never be able to have let her go out in
the real world by herself if she weren't.
Luna - 23 Mar 2004 04:34 GMT
> The "bitch" is *necessary* in this world.  I *taught* my daughter to
> be a bitch on purpose.  When she was 14, she was out walking in our
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I'm *glad* she's a bitch.  I'd never be able to have let her go out in
> the real world by herself if she weren't.

Good for her!  I wouldn't describe that as being a "bitch" though, myself.  
"Bitch" makes me think of cattiness, mean spirited behavior for no reason.  
Your daughter wasn't being mean at all, she was defending herself from a
jerk, a possible predator.

Signature

Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws.  My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

revek - 23 Mar 2004 04:47 GMT
Luna  burbled across the ether:

>> The "bitch" is *necessary* in this world.  I *taught* my daughter to
>> be a bitch on purpose.  When she was 14, she was out walking in our
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> for no reason. Your daughter wasn't being mean at all, she was
> defending herself from a jerk, a possible predator.

I see the word these days and I know what a woman means by it-- strong
willed and willing to stand up for herself, a person with backbone (a
beyotch), and yet at the same time I know most men (in my neck of the
woods anyway) equate having a backbone with being mean or catty (bitchy
bitch).

Signature

revek   www.geocities.com/tanirevek/LowCarb.html  lowcarbing since June
           2002 5'2" 41 F  165+/too much/size seven petite please
Om began to feel the acute depression that steals over every realist in
the presence of an optimist. {Small Gods, 1992}

Luna - 23 Mar 2004 05:08 GMT
> Luna  burbled across the ether:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> woods anyway) equate having a backbone with being mean or catty (bitchy
> bitch).

I guess I'm still old fashioned then.  I don't want to be seen as a bitch.
I want to be seen as someone who stands up for herself, but in general I'm
a nice person.  I always try the nice way first.  If a bum asks me for
spare change, I say "Sorry, I don't have any, good luck!" rather than "f.ck
off."  To me, the first one is being firm, the second one is being a bitch.

Signature

Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws.  My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

revek - 23 Mar 2004 05:25 GMT
Luna  burbled across the ether:

>> Luna  burbled across the ether:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> luck!" rather than "f.ck off."  To me, the first one is being firm,
> the second one is being a bitch.

Yes, that is why I said beyotch-- velvet covering iron, the sort of
strong willed (often southern) woman of genteel days of yore.  Someone
who deserves and gets respect.

That's different than what 'bitch means in these parts.  Women ('round
here) think "bitch" is reserved for cattiness, while men (in my neck of
the woods) tend to use "bitch" for any feminine disagreement or
obstruction in their path.

Signature

revek   www.geocities.com/tanirevek/LowCarb.html  lowcarbing since June
           2002 5'2" 41 F  165+/too much/size seven petite please
Anyone who is capable of being elected president should on no account
be allowed to do the job - The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy

Bob La Londe - 23 Mar 2004 23:56 GMT
> Luna  burbled across the ether:
> >
> >> Luna  burbled across the ether:
> >>>
> >>>> The "bitch" is *necessary* in this world.  I *taught* my daughter

I am glad to see that your definition of bitch is not the same as mine.  I
grew up in the public eye.  We owned a grocery store in a rural area.  Once
when my dad was out of town a fellow decided that was a good time to try and
put the moves on my mom.  She beat the living hell out of him with her
fists.  I don't consider that being a bitch.  She was every bit the
professional and courteous business woman going out of her way on a daily
basis to cater to our customers.

As a humorous side note, the fellow admitted that he put the moves on my mom
when his cronies asked him how he got beat up, but he lied and told
everybody that my dad was the one who pounded him.

Another time a 300+ lb crazy lady from the state home down the street went
nuts in our place.  I remember my mom knocking this lady down and sitting on
her while she reached up to the payphone to call the sheriff.

This is not being a bitch.  This is good survival skills necessary to most
people IMO at some time in their life.  Hopefully they only have to test
themselves like this once or twice in their lives, but it happens.

My mom, by the way is not a large woman.  She is 5'6" or so, and she has
weighed in the range from 150 most of her life.  She does have a lot of
strength.  She grew up on a farm throwing around bales of hay, and in our
grocery store it used to amaze me seeing her toss full milk crates to the
top of a stack over her head.  I can't count the times when my dad wasn't
available during a grocery delivery that she balanced a side of beef over
her shoulder and walked it into the walkin cooler where I hooked it up with
a meat hook to the ceiling for her.

We are strong in my family.  Not necessarily of personal power, but of will.
I personally can do things that stronger people wuss out on.  I just keep at
it.  Whether it be survival, dealing with jerks, or taking care of life's
continuous grind.  Once we decide to do something it will get done.  Our
bodies will give out before our drive.  I don't see any reason that can't
carry you through most things, and being a bitch or a prick doesn't need to
be part of it.

Yes, learn to use a gun.  Learn to fight.  Learn to be assertive.  Exercise
to be strong.  But, also, learn that strength needs to be tempered with
wisdom.  Learn WHEN to fight and when to be assertive and when to use a gun.

Yes I have seen the BITCH logo.  It looks neat, but it really does not over
come the negative connotation of the word.

Babe
I n
Total
Control
   of
Herself

Bob La Londe
www.YumaBassMan.com
Roger Zoul - 24 Mar 2004 18:44 GMT
::: Luna  burbled across the ether:
:::: In article <c3obvs$2aei6t$1@ID-190183.news.uni-berlin.de>,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
:: woman going out of her way on a daily basis to cater to our
:: customers.

What does "put the moves" on mean?  You see, to me, that could simply mean
he made a verbal offer of some kind to her, and an appropriate response
could have simply been "no".  There would be no need for her to "beat the
living hell out of him with her fists."

So, you, in my eyes, have portrayed your own mother as a "bitch" by simply
not making it more clear why she responded that way.  Not everyone has the
same sensibilites, you know.

:: As a humorous side note, the fellow admitted that he put the moves
:: on my mom when his cronies asked him how he got beat up, but he lied
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
::
:: This is not being a bitch.

Assuming your mom had a perfectly legitimate reason for beating the guy down
(I tend to think she did, even though you didn't give it, imo), I agree.  I
would not think of your mom as being a bitch, just someone who knows how to
take care of business.

This is good survival skills necessary
:: to most people IMO at some time in their life.  Hopefully they only
:: have to test themselves like this once or twice in their lives, but
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
:: into the walkin cooler where I hooked it up with a meat hook to the
:: ceiling for her.

You don't have to be big to be strong.

:: We are strong in my family.  Not necessarily of personal power, but
:: of will. I personally can do things that stronger people wuss out
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
::     of
:: Herself

Yeah, but some women go to the extreme with this notion.  They consider it a
license to not even be respectful and considerate of others.
LCer09 - 24 Mar 2004 23:41 GMT

>:: Babe
>:: I n
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Yeah, but some women go to the extreme with this notion.  They consider it a
>license to not even be respectful and considerate of others.

Kind of like what most people seem to consider "defensive driving".

LCing since 12/01/03-
Me- 5'7" 265/219/140
& hubby- 6' 310/237/180
jpatti - 24 Mar 2004 18:46 GMT
> I am glad to see that your definition of bitch is not the same as mine.  I
> grew up in the public eye.  We owned a grocery store in a rural area.  Once
> when my dad was out of town a fellow decided that was a good time to try and
> put the moves on my mom.  She beat the living hell out of him with her
> fists.  I don't consider that being a bitch.  

I bet *he* did though.

Your mom sounds like a cool lady.  Given that "bitch" has various
connotations, I would not call your mom a bitch.  But if she called
herself one, I'd sure agree.

Getting in touch with one's inner bitch has struck me as much more
useful than the inner child stuff.  My inner child was a victimized
wuss, whereas my inner bitch is a powerful woman and she don't take
sh.t.

> Yes, learn to use a gun.  Learn to fight.  Learn to be assertive.  Exercise
> to be strong.  But, also, learn that strength needs to be tempered with
> wisdom.  Learn WHEN to fight and when to be assertive and when to use a gun.

And learn *attitude* - cause attitude will let you not *have* to know
how to use a gun or how to fight the vast majority of the time.
jpatti - 24 Mar 2004 18:52 GMT
> ...while men (in my neck of
> the woods) tend to use "bitch" for any feminine disagreement or
> obstruction in their path.

This is the definition I'm using in this thread, which is why I
consider the word a "good" thing.  *Every* time I've been called a
bitch (unless it was a in a joking manner) it's been because I wasn't
being a good victim.

I admit I use the other definition at other times too.  Comes down to
tone of voice and such, which is hard to get across on a newsgroup.
revek - 24 Mar 2004 20:53 GMT
>> ...while men (in my neck of
>> the woods) tend to use "bitch" for any feminine disagreement or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> bitch (unless it was a in a joking manner) it's been because I wasn't
> being a good victim.

Yep.  I keep joking 'it's the water' but in actual fact, it might well
be.  My area used to be mined for lead.  And you don't have to dig all
that deep to reach the water table either.

> I admit I use the other definition at other times too.  Comes down to
> tone of voice and such, which is hard to get across on a newsgroup.

Yep.  That's why I differentiate with the spelling.  Beyotch is
attitude and confidence-- a different thing than the other one, but it
could be mistaken for it at first brush by the gunshy.

--
revek
The thing I want to know is, if you tell your brain not to do stuff
like that and it keeps doing it anyway, does that mean your mind has a
mind of its own? And if it does, then who's in charge here, anyway?
-Jed, Armageddon Summer (Yolen)
Roger Zoul - 23 Mar 2004 17:43 GMT
:: Luna  burbled across the ether:
::: In article <f7355fcb.0403221917.25992f4a@posting.google.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
:: my neck of the woods anyway) equate having a backbone with being
:: mean or catty (bitchy bitch).

Both meanings require common elements...backbone, will...the mean and/or
catty thing *seems* to exist mostly in female-to-female encounters, but not
always. I've encountered some real "bitches" lately, sadly.
revek - 23 Mar 2004 18:32 GMT
Roger Zoul  burbled across the ether:
> Both meanings require common elements...backbone, will...the mean
> and/or catty thing *seems* to exist mostly in female-to-female
> encounters, but not always. I've encountered some real "bitches"
> lately, sadly.

Yeah.  It does exist.  Just not as frequently as some claim.  I hope
these bitches weren't part of your love life.  :(

Signature

revek   www.geocities.com/tanirevek/LowCarb.html  lowcarbing since June
           2002 5'2" 41 F  165+/too much/size seven petite please
"You couldn't get a clue if you were soaked in clue pheromone in clue
bondage gear on the clue mating grounds during clue mating season
surrounded by horny clues."

Roger Zoul - 23 Mar 2004 23:20 GMT
:: Roger Zoul  burbled across the ether:
::: Both meanings require common elements...backbone, will...the mean
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
:: Yeah.  It does exist.  Just not as frequently as some claim.  I hope
:: these bitches weren't part of your love life.  :(

Well, I encountered them in search of a love life.  Luckily, I got away...
:)
Marsha - 24 Mar 2004 00:27 GMT
> :: Yeah.  It does exist.  Just not as frequently as some claim.  I hope
> :: these bitches weren't part of your love life.  :(

: {

> Well, I encountered them in search of a love life.  Luckily, I got away...
> :)

Nice to see you retained your sense of humor   : )

Marsha/Ohio
Roger Zoul - 24 Mar 2004 18:35 GMT
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::::: Yeah.  It does exist.  Just not as frequently as some claim.  I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
::
:: Nice to see you retained your sense of humor   : )

One bad (or two) apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch! :)
The Queen of Cans and Jars - 23 Mar 2004 05:46 GMT
> I'm *glad* she's a bitch.  I'd never be able to have let her go out in
> the real world by herself if she weren't.

being capable of defending yourself doesn't make you a bitch.
Crafting Mom - 23 Mar 2004 12:42 GMT
>> I'm *glad* she's a bitch.  I'd never be able to have let her go out in
>> the real world by herself if she weren't.
>
>being capable of defending yourself doesn't make you a bitch.

Yeah, it would have been bitchy if she said "Piss off, pervert!" just
for his asking directions, but she was polite and gave directions.

Good for her for defending herself!
CM
Saffire - 23 Mar 2004 05:56 GMT
> The "bitch" is *necessary* in this world.  I *taught* my daughter to
> be a bitch on purpose.  When she was 14, she was out walking in our
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I'm *glad* she's a bitch.  I'd never be able to have let her go out in
> the real world by herself if she weren't.

I wish MY mom had taught me to be a bitch.  When I was 13 I was walking home from
school when a man pulled over to ask me directions.  I told him I had no idea
where the street was that he was looking for.  Then he told he that the way I
wore my dress he'd like to stick his tongue up it!  I was SHOCKED.  I told him to
go to hell and quickly walked away (I would have run, but I was probably trying
to be sophisticated).  I then went to a pay phone to tell my mother what had
happened, desperately needing reassurance -- she was upset because I told him to
go to hell (it wasn't clear if she was made because I swore or because she was
afraid of what he might have done because I swore) and said I would always have
to deal with that kind of thing because, like her, I had "bedroom eyes".  Sigh
... he came up from behind -- it wasn't my EYES he was looking at and I wasn't
doing anything but walking down the street and he was REALLY old (he might even
have been as old as 30 :-)  Every time I think of the recent videotaped
kidnapping/murder of Carly Brucia (the 11 year old in Florida) I remember this
incident and realize I lucky I was.  

When I was 15 I was a live-in nanny for about 4 months for a woman who owned and
lived in a 4-plex.  Each morning I would see a pair of young newlyweds come out
of an upstairs apt in the 4-plex next door.  The woman was always in her bathrobe
and walked him to the curb to kiss him goodbye.  I was SOOO jealous because I was
very pregnant, but my fiance, whom I loved with literally every breath I took (as
only a 15-yr-old can), had died when I was 4 months along, which absolutely
DEVASTATED me -- these lovey-dovey newlyweds seemed to have the life *I* wanted.  
I wistfully watched them and saw off and on during the day how contented she
seemed to be and how happy she was when he came home from work.  We waved and
said hi occasionally.  A few months later I read in the paper that the woman had
been murdered in her apartment after she had said goodbye to her husband when he
left for work.  She had been brutally stabbed to death.  Someone who knew her
routine had waited for her to walk her husband to the car, and slipped into her
apt to lie in wait for her.  *I* knew her routine, and I could EASILY imagine how
it must have gone down.  I've never forgotten that and ALWAYS locked my doors,
even if I was just going downstairs and around the back to the laundryroom for a
few minutes.

Shortly after I turned 18 I was riding my bike through a mall parking lot when a
man in a car tried to force me to look at him by slowly and deliberately cutting
off my available space.  When I finally DID look at him, I saw the he was jacking
off.  It REALLY unnerved me.  So much so that I started smoking again (I quit for
good later that year).  

FF to my early 30s.  I was trim, had long curly hair and was driving a red RX 7
with the stereo blasting.  I went to the grocery store and noticed a car that had
been waiting for me to go by earlier had also turned in and parked a few spaces
away.  I noticed it mostly because of the way the driver had looked at me as I
made sure not to hit him if he pulled out too soon.  He was driving a pretty
crappy AMC Gremlin with only patchy primer on it, which also stood out in my
mind.  In the parking lot, the guy was STILL watching me, which made me
uncomfortable, but I ignored him and went on about my business.  In NO WAY did I
encourage him.  When I came out again, it was dark and I was immediately on alert
because the same guy had pulled up one car length into the NEXT row.  There
weren't very many cars in that particular area, and it was FARTHER from the store
-- there was no reason WHATSOEVER for him to have done that, so it was VERY
suspicious.  As I approached my car, keeping an eye on his, I saw that he was
still in it.  I quickly unlocked my car to jump into it as he opened his door
slightly, causing his interior light to go on.  At that point I realized that he
had carefully chosen that position PRECISELY so I could easily see into his car.  
By the time I frantically put the key into the ignition, he had opened the door
all the way and was jacking off specifically for my "benefit".  There was no
QUESTION that he had deliberately TARGETED me.  I was TERRIFIED!  I had no IDEA
what he might do NEXT, and it wasn't clear at first if he was jerking around a
penis or a GUN!  I hightailed it to the front of the store and let them know what
was going on, then I stopped at the nearby police station to report it.  When I
told my mother later, she said I should have just laughed at the guy and told him
how small his penis was.  She just didn't GET IT (and probably STILL doesn't)!  
He was a PREDATOR and I was his PREY -- there wasn't anything funny or sexual
about it.  That's how Ted Bundy started out.  Besides, who KNOWS what someone who
would do that might do if he were humiliated or belittled?  There is (mostly) a
BIG difference nowadays on how different generations of women perceive and handle
things, but the fact that they happen all too frequently is something that will
probably NEVER change.  

That's all stuff that happened as I was going about my business, not in bars or
even at work.  I had some difficulty at work, too, though, when someone suddenly
became my manager.  That turned out okay, because I kept silent, it was
questionable, and I eventually got another manager, but it COULD have gone very
wrong.  It DID go very wrong for another woman with the same man later down the
line.

I have long had a theory that NO woman makes it to the age of 20 without being
sexually accosted in one manner or another at LEAST once and probably more than
that.  We are HUNTED for at least half our lives and we KNOW it.  THAT is
something that will always be diffcult for men who are not aggressively hunting
us to truly grasp.  YOU may not have noticed it happening that much, but by the
time we women are adults, it's INGRAINED in us.  With so much information coming
at us from all sides now (and observing how obnoxious and aggressive some guys
can get on-line and how they sometimes talk about women as a matter of course),
is it any wonder we're skittish or downright hostile when someone makes an
advance?  

When I was fatter, I no longer got looks or come-ons.  There IS a certain safety
in that.  In fact, much like Jane Goodall or Dian Fossey, I could, unbeknownst to
the predator since I didn't even factor into his radar, simply outright observe
his public mating rituals and hunting strategies; it was very eye-opening.  Being
fat, however, I DID feel more vulnerable to being mugged, because it would be
tougher for me to get away.  I'm not saying that overweight women don't get
preyed upon sexually, but we generally don't make nearly as desirable a target.  
I DO understand the dynamics of this aspect of getting and/or staying fat.  Now
that I'm older, I think my concern for my health will outweigh (no pun intended)
my underlying fear for my safety.  

Signature

Saffire
205/165/125  -  5'2.5"
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo:  http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

TdN - 23 Mar 2004 19:48 GMT
> When I was 13 I was walking home from
> school when a man pulled over to ask me directions.  I told him I had no idea
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> afraid of what he might have done because I swore) and said I would always have
> to deal with that kind of thing because, like her, I had "bedroom eyes".

This breaks my heart.

I don't even know what else to say about it.

Your mom failed to teach you to respect your rights as a person, and
tried to teach you to blame yourself for others' inappropriate
behavior.

Just reading this story made me want to cry.

T.
Bob in CT - 23 Mar 2004 20:41 GMT
>> When I was 13 I was walking home from
>> school when a man pulled over to ask me directions.  I told him I had
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> T.

Shoot, I'd be upset because you didn't pull your gun and shoot him.  I
certainly wouldn't be upset you yelled at him.

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Bob in CT
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Saffire - 23 Mar 2004 22:44 GMT
> Your mom failed to teach you to respect your rights as a person, and
> tried to teach you to blame yourself for others' inappropriate
> behavior.
>
> Just reading this story made me want to cry.

Yeah, I put up with some UNBELIEVABLE crap because *I* didn't want to hurt
*THEIR* feelings.  Took some therapy (and maturing) for me to learn to be more
assertive.

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revek - 24 Mar 2004 10:16 GMT
Saffire  burbled across the ether:
>> Your mom failed to teach you to respect your rights as a person, and
>> tried to teach you to blame yourself for others' inappropriate
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> hurt *THEIR* feelings.  Took some therapy (and maturing) for me to
> learn to be more assertive.

Good for you.  I went out of my way to make sure my daughters didn't get
that message from me, as I had with my parents (is it a generational
thing?).

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revek   www.geocities.com/tanirevek/LowCarb.html  lowcarbing since June
           2002 5'2" 41 F  165+/too much/size seven petite please
It is by kook alone the posts are set in motion. The posts acquire
annoyance, the annoyance leads to flames, the flames become a warning.
It is by kook alone the posts are set in motion.  --Gareth Wilson
(riffing on the Litany Against Fear from the novel Dune by Frank
Herbert)

Crafting Mom - 23 Mar 2004 21:05 GMT
>afraid of what he might have done because I swore) and said I would always have
>to deal with that kind of thing because, like her, I had "bedroom eyes".  Sigh

YOU are not responsible for others' behaviour!  I am appalled at your
mother for suggesting YOU had anything to do with that man's
inappropriate behaviour!  Eyes schmeyes.  Your eyes have nothing to do
with it.

>I have long had a theory that NO woman makes it to the age of 20 without being
>sexually accosted in one manner or another at LEAST

When I was 14, very *conservatively* (my mother picked out my clothes
for me) dressed, not even "in shape", I was waiting for a bus.  Some
perverted guy came up to me and said "May I have a look?"  It took me a
minute to register what he was referring to, and I said, "I beg your
pardon?", then he flashed some money in front of me.  I was so appalled
that I just shook my head and walked away.  Had I really known what I
was dealing with, I'd have called the cops and had him arrested for
accosting a minor.

>When I was fatter, I no longer got looks or come-ons.  There IS a certain safety
>in that.  

Yep, the plus side of being fat, is that for me it brought the twits out
of the woodwork, and people were more genuine with me, whether it was
positive or negative.  So at least I had some (whether true or not)
security in that.

CM
jpatti - 24 Mar 2004 19:24 GMT
> I wish MY mom had taught me to be a bitch.  When I was 13 I was walking home from
> school...

<snip of stories>

This sh.t started happenning to me when I was 11 and 12, cause I had
boobs early on.  I was so naive, the first time a guy hit on me, I
didn't understand what he wanted.  No kidding.  I mean, why would some
guy I hardly knew want to have sex with me?  It didn't *occur* to me
even though my mom had given me the "talk."

I told my daughter *way* differently... I told her if anyone touches
you after you have clearly said no, anything up to and including
killing them is an ethical and appropriate response.

Luna posted about being nice *unless* it was necessary to be
otherwise.  And I agree with that completly, and don't care if she
uses the word "bitch" or not.  The point being that... being "nice" is
not useful in cases of harassment - when someone has made it clear
they don't deserve nice, do something else (whatever you call it).

There's actual danger versus just plain harassment too - you have to
be clueful to distinguish between them.

An example... few years back, I'm walking the 2 blocks from my
apartment to the convenience store in broad daylight and a guy stops
me on the street with an "Excuse me".  I stop, figuring he's going to
ask directions or the time or something, and he says, "Has anyone ever
told you you have nice tits?"  I replied, "Has anyone ever told you
you're a f.cking a.shole?"

I *enjoyed* being a bitch (or whatever you want to call it) in that
situation.  It was fun!  But I was at EXTREMELY minimal risk for
violence, there were people walking around, cars going by, etc.  This
was not a potential rape, just garden-variety harassment and it was
*safe* for me to indulge in bitchiness.

I am *not* talking about frank violence here.  The times when you're
confronted with an actual threat of violence are pretty rare in
comparison to just harassment.  In the case of the threat of actual
violence, you have to do *whatever* it takes to be safe.  But when
it's harassment, hey... have fun with it!

The thing about responding that way when being harassed in a *safe*
situation is it gives you a level of comfort with the whole thing.
Really.  Normal, ordinary harassment becomes a *fun* thing when you
develop a "bitch" attitude.  I am a nice person, I don't go around
calling people "f.cking a.sholes" on anything like a regular basis.
But it's kind of *fun* to not be nice, to be downright nasty, with
someone who absolutely deserves it.

You can wrap your head around the idea that harassment isn't something
scary or intimidating to *you,* but rather a chance to behave badly
with no guilt.  It *changes* the meaning of harassment in a way that
it doesn't feel like something you have to stay fat to avoid.
Roger Zoul - 23 Mar 2004 17:39 GMT
::: There are also multiple judgement standards.  When I was in my mid
::: twentys I was fit and trim.  I used to flirt with all the old
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
:: experience.  Harassment is more a predatory/prey activity.  It comes
:: from a very different attitude on the guy's part than flirting does.

I believe that is absolutely true.  I flirt whenever I get the chance,
because it is fun.  And it takes two to flirt continously.  If both parties
aren't involved, well, then it becomes something else....

::: I think sometimes people don't even recognize how much their own
::: bias' affect how they feel about people.  I absolutely believe
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
:: the street either.  This is not a flirting tactic, it's an
:: intimidaiton tactic.

Gosh....I'm glad you had an "inner bitch" to rely on.

:: The "bitch" is *necessary* in this world.  I *taught* my daughter to
:: be a bitch on purpose.  When she was 14, she was out walking in our
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
:: in
:: the real world by herself if she weren't.
DigitalVinyl - 22 Mar 2004 18:41 GMT
>:: Marsha <mas@sev.org> wrote in message
>:: news:<EqSdndKreejUosPd4p2dnA@buckeye-express.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>women all the time, but have never felt the slightest inclination to harass
>them.  It's beyond imagination...

They are out there, but they show their faces to guy "buddies".
Unfortunately I have been told I have a "neutral" personality so even
people I can't stand think I'm a buddy.  I've had scum bosses brag to
me about how they cheat on their wife and family, making business
decisions to orchestrate reasons for them to visit places with
mistresses. I've had guys speak in a mixed group against stereotypes
of race and sex, then when the women left talk about which races of
p***y they had tried and which ones they'd like to try next and how
they were different. I've seen whipped husbands intimidate, lie and
belittle people in the office, especially women, minorities, and any
guy who could fear for his job. Clearly getting off on being in
charge, because when they went home they were clearly the wife's
"bitch". I worked with a very nice shorter woman for years in retail.
She would get the most obnoxious people talking down to her,
especially men. Being the size of a football player I never
expereinced it. I couldn't help but notice that those people always
went to Nancy and not me.

All that crap is out there.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/314/Mar-315/200
Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
OWL-35 carbs/day (CCLL=?)
Roger Zoul - 22 Mar 2004 19:01 GMT
:: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
::
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
::
:: All that crap is out there.

I've not experienced this at all.  I guess in some way I've managed to
shelter myself.  I've been around guys who talk crap, but much of it is guy
talk and not really provocative, imo.  Of course, I've always been picky
about the people I hang around and talk to, so maybe that's it.
Bob in CT - 22 Mar 2004 19:05 GMT
[cut]

> :: They are out there, but they show their faces to guy "buddies".
> :: Unfortunately I have been told I have a "neutral" personality so even
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> talk and not really provocative, imo.  Of course, I've always been picky
> about the people I hang around and talk to, so maybe that's it.

Probably the same for me -- any man who brags about conquests or the like
wouldn't be my compatriot for long.

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DigitalVinyl - 22 Mar 2004 21:19 GMT
>[cut]
>> ::
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>Probably the same for me -- any man who brags about conquests or the like
>wouldn't be my compatriot for long.

The cheater wasn't my compatriot, he was the Director of the
department, my bosses' boss.  Most of the others I didn't normally
have direct contact with. But that "neutral" personality makes people
comfortable with me.  This type of person doesn't make my inner circle
ever. But in business you have be politically polite even to scum. I
don't enjoy going to strip clubs although I've worked for multiple
companies where Managers or Vendors take staff and key people out to
topless bars and strip joints. Sometimes as a reward for a job well
done. Personally, I say give me the money, you can even tuck it in my
waistline if that makes you feel better.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
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Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
OWL-35 carbs/day (CCLL=?)
Marsha - 23 Mar 2004 00:48 GMT
> Boy -- after reading all of these replies -- all I can say is that I had no
> idea there were so many jerks in the world.  It all makes me wonder what
> world I live in.....I mean -- this just doesn't compute...I see attractive
> women all the time, but have never felt the slightest inclination to harass
> them.  It's beyond imagination...

Roger,
There really aren't that many.  I just happened to be in the
wrong place at the wrong time.  I can't imagine you being
like that, either   : )

Marsha/Ohio
jpatti - 23 Mar 2004 04:01 GMT
> Boy -- after reading all of these replies -- all I can say is that I had no
> idea there were so many jerks in the world.  It all makes me wonder what
> world I live in.....I mean -- this just doesn't compute...I see attractive
> women all the time, but have never felt the slightest inclination to harass
> them.  It's beyond imagination...

It's a very small proportion of males who behave this way.
Unfortunately, almost all women have been harassed to some degree or
another because the ones who do behave this way do it a *lot*.

This is why many women are defensive even when a nice guy approaches
them... there's the uncertainty of whether you're a jerk or not always
in the back of our minds.
Roger Zoul - 23 Mar 2004 17:27 GMT
::: Boy -- after reading all of these replies -- all I can say is that
::: I had no idea there were so many jerks in the world.  It all makes
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
:: always
:: in the back of our minds.

Yes, I believe that to be true.  I'm not really sure how many women are
really defensive about it, though.  I can see if a woman is walking alone
somewhere and meets a male stranger -- avoiding eye contact is probably the
safe route.   And sometimes women are just lost in thought.  And I'm
guessing that many of the men who treat women poorly are rather uneducated
and refined, perhaps.  Since I left high school, I just have not experienced
that kind of behavior, so it must be because of the crowds I hang around.
Piedlourde - 23 Mar 2004 08:28 GMT
<< I see attractive
women all the time, but have never felt the slightest inclination to harass
them.   >>

Attractiveness isn't even necessarily a prerequisite, if my experiences on NYC
subway platforms are any indication... even I occasionally get hassled, and I'm
certainly not the girl that men tend to notice when I'm out with my friends.

Some people are just jerks. Or crazy. Or crazy jerks. No self-censorship
mechanism. Best ignored.

Piedlourde
DigitalVinyl - 22 Mar 2004 18:23 GMT
>And there's always the LL Bean catalogue--my brother refers to it as
>"WASP birth control" because the clothing is so determinedly un-sexy.

LMAO!

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/314/Mar-315/200
Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
OWL-35 carbs/day (CCLL=?)
Marsha - 23 Mar 2004 00:45 GMT
> You're a grownup now.  You have the self-confidence to advocate for
> yourself if other people are inappropriate.

Well, I was a grownup then, too, sort of.  Just naive.

> Here's the thing--if you lose the weight and are unhappy with the
> unwanted attention, you can take other steps (getting an unflattering
> hairdo, wearing unstylish, loose-fitting clothing, not wearing makeup)
> to signal your lack of interest in being a sex object.  None of those
> approaches will have a negative impact on your health.

I do want to look my best for SO.

> And there's always the LL Bean catalogue--my brother refers to it as
> "WASP birth control" because the clothing is so determinedly un-sexy.

: )

> I do sympathize with you--your story is very resonant with my own
> experiences. But remember, the most important thing is your health.
> Wouldn't you rather be a healthy, fit person who chooses to dress to
> de-emphasize her sexuality than an overweight, unhealthy person who
> clings to a concealing "garment" of flesh?

Yeah, I just don't want the flashbacks.  But it will be
worth it, once I get used to it, I think.

Marsha/Ohio
Jenny - 22 Mar 2004 17:08 GMT
Marsha,

Learn karate.  Seriously!

The psychological fears attractive women experience are based on real things
that happen because they are attractive. Knowing you have the skills to get
yourself out of a tough spot can really help.

Be sure you find a karate studio where the emphasis is on self-protection
not the theory of martial arts. I found one for my daughter and they taught
her how to get out of situations safely. Then they taught her some
techniques that work if you can't. She's very beautiful and has had to use
them a couple times. They've worked for her, and more importantly, because
she doesn't feel helpless she radiates a kind of physical confidence that
has been shown to keep perverts and those who prey on women away.

-- Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Marsha/Ohio
Marsha - 23 Mar 2004 01:03 GMT
> Be sure you find a karate studio where the emphasis is on self-protection
> not the theory of martial arts. I found one for my daughter and they taught
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> she doesn't feel helpless she radiates a kind of physical confidence that
> has been shown to keep perverts and those who prey on women away.

First, I want to sincerely thank everyone who replied.  Food
for thought is always welcome.  I really don't ever expect
to be in the same situation again, it's just those
flashbacks that are a bit worrisome.  I've always been a bit
tomboyish and honestly don't think I was inviting anything.
  It will be quite a while before goal weight comes around.
Plenty of time to get used to it and move on, eh?

Marsha/Ohio
Saffire - 23 Mar 2004 00:56 GMT
> Some psychological insight, please.  I believe that the
> reason so many weight-loss attempts have failed in the past
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>   Kinda silly, really, since I'm older, but nevertheless old
> stuff kinda dies hard.

I think I have some of those fears, and I'm 48.  There were many factors going
into why I got to the weight I did, but ONE of those factors was certainly that I
took myself out of the dating game ENTIRELY because I just didn't want to get
hurt again, emotionally or physically.  I have some deep-seated issues of trust
when it comes to men -- I don't trust them not to hurt me in one way or another.  
Gaining weight certainly helped to keep them at bay.  Now that I've lost a
significant amount of weight, I AM getting more attention, and I AM a natural
born flirt, so I have to be careful about signals I might send out.  

MOST of the time I'm DELIGHTED when I see the results of low-carbing and
exercising.  One thing I've noticed lately, though, that surprised the sh.t out
of me is that I've had brief moments of ANIMOSITY toward my shrinking body!  When
I take a bath, for instance, I'm laying down and I'll look at my shrinking belly
and slimmer hips and I feel ... I don't know ... it's kind of like "Oh, yeah, NOW
you look better and thinner and lighter -- where were you when I NEEDED you?"  
It's also kind of like I'm succeeding in taming it and FINALLY overcoming its
bitchy iron will with a will of my OWN, but it's been a real FIGHT and it always
WILL be, so I'm PISSED OFF at it because it's given me so much grief and will, no
doubt continue to do so whenever it spies an opportunity.  I guess I've been a
little TOO successful in mentally separating my body from my mind :-)  Maybe I
should work on becoming bestest friends with it instead of viewing it as an
adversary :-)

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Atkins since 6/14/03
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Marsha - 23 Mar 2004 01:55 GMT
> MOST of the time I'm DELIGHTED when I see the results of low-carbing and
> exercising.  One thing I've noticed lately, though, that surprised the sh.t out
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> should work on becoming bestest friends with it instead of viewing it as an
> adversary :-)

And a fight it will always be....

Marsha/Ohio
Pamsta - 24 Mar 2004 18:48 GMT
Thanks Marsha for beginning this thread. I have similar issues as well
and although I will never be that cute 22 year old again (I am 44...)
those fears and experiences still are there, it is just learning to
deal with them as everyone has said. I called my fat "a.shole
repellant" even...lol, thought of doing a stand up routine using it
and all. Too bad I have stage fright!

There are good guys out there, but being victemized by a few bad ones
certainly tends to make us be fearful and protective. I am glad to see
we have some very sweet gentlemen here in this NG. Ultimately I hope
we all find what we are looking for.

*good health
*feel better about ourselves
*true happiness
*__________(fill it in)

It is up to us folks.

Big hug to you all.

Pam
 
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