On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:12:42 -0000, "~{}~HäñK~{}~"
<Suk_HanK@hotmail.com> announced in front of God and everybody:

Well, probably not if that's *all* you eat. But most folks -- even the
deluded ones -- seem to have a slightly more varied diet than that.

That's great! Good for you!

Really. What then, would be "the point?"

A lot of people just need to restrict calories, and LC does that for
them nicely. But others are insulin resistant, even diabetic, and
don't process carbohydrates the same way as non-LC people. For them
it's not about calories, but about carbohydrates. Those of us who are
IR find we can lose and maintain on a higher calorie intake than
eating any other way, and it's a lifelong change, not a short-term
diet. A lifelong change that may occasionally involve eating
sugar-free cheesecake (I'll refrain from commenting on
Splenda-sweetened pork rinds, a concept I personally find horrifying.)

Low-carb is *not* a calorie restrictive diet -- even if it can be used
as one. It's a carbohydrate restrictive diet, and that's why it works
so well for many people who've never had success on calorie
restrictive plans.

Well, again -- that's great! Good for you! Just keep in mind that your
experience isn't universal, and low-carb -- like most things in life
-- can be completely different for others.

Dawn

Do you keep a close watch on your lipids? You could be getting the 'worst of
both worlds' if you eat high fat and carbs on a regular basis.

Rachel
(New Zealand)

I suspect you are right about not ignoring dietary fat as well.  Too many
calories in will probably prevent burning body fat. But it is easier to eat
less when you aren't hungering after fat to eat.

Here is a really good in depth coverage of more than anybody ever wanted to
know about biochemistry:

http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/home.html

Combined with:

1) Over eating is forbidden after the initial cravings are gone.

2) For the same total calories eaten, less protein and more fat result
in more loss all the way down to the point where protein starvation
mode is triggered.

Those two lead to a dynamic that few can handle mentally.  More fat
doesn't mean within a fixed calorie total to most people.  But within
a fixed calorie total, more fat linked with a matching less protein,
does lead to more loss.  *Holding carb intake fixed near CCLL*.

Partially.

1) While in ketosis the liver is empty of carbs, so there are zero carb
based cravings.  Since carb cravings are a large portion of appetite,
hunger is reduced.

2) Since fat should be eaten well in excess of low fat ranges, and the
appetite reduction effect of dietary fat is much larger than the appetite
reduction effect of dietary protein, hunger is reduced.  Combine these
to points and you have the key to losing once you're in the range of
less to lose.

3) Ketosis is burning both dietary fat and stored fat.  Since increased
dietary fat triggers the release of increased glucagon, more dietary fat
leads to more fat withdrawn from storage, with the caveat that over
eating will shut off ketosis and shut off this effect.

4) Because of the super-charger effect of glucagon, BMR is higher while
in ketosis than while not in ketosis.  This metabolic edge is why some
with over 100 pounds to lose can drop at a rate that does not appear
possible assuming non-ketotic metabolisms.

It isn't right because it ignores the fact that over eating is forbidden
after the initial carb cravings of Induction are past.

writes:

ITA.  I started a food diary as soon as I quit denying that I needed to lose
weight.  A week later, I dropped sugar from my diet, and 16 days after that, I
went low-carb.  If I look back, I can see that I ate at least 50% more than I'm
eating now, sometimes 100% more.  Yet I'm not going hungry or feeling deprived
on this WOE.  So I feel that low-carb eating has definitely worked for me, in
that I'm both craving and eating less food in general and junk in particular.

Getting back to the OP's point, though it was aimed at people with a lot of
weight to lose, I've become *aware* of calories.  I'm not counting them yet,
because I don't have to at this point.  But if I stall out for a long time?
Yeah, I'll be cutting back.

Daria
166/147/140
sugar-free since 2/1/04
low-carb since 2/17/04

That certainly makes sense to me. I do believe the low carbs are controlling
my desire to eat sugary and floury things. I don't believe it's just the
protein that's stopping those cravings.

this seems to match up with my experience....I've had high protein days, and
high fat days, but the thing in common with both of them as the fat that the
carbs were low, and for me, that seems to be the main key to controlling my
appetite. I do think that overall I'm happier with higher proportions of
protein than with higher proportions of fat, BTW.  For me, high protein/low
carb works better and is more filling than high fat/low carb.  I think that
probably because I can eat a greater volume of food with high protien/low
carb than with high fat/low carb, and since I like to eat, I'm happier with
more food, in general.

Just my observations relative to me.

What if I told you I was on a diet that included a wide variety of foods
except those that contain refined sugar and starches?

Or are doughnuts, bagels, and french fries necessities in one's diet?

CM
(I know I am answering a troll, but the misconception about what
low-carb IS has been badly skewed by the junk food industry and the
media)

I would suspect by the same mechanism that shoves any excess into storage
when you're not on LC.  Nowhere that I've seen does Atkins claim that
ketosis completely eliminates fat storage, nor that it revs up your
metabolism enough to handle *any* amount (no matter how large) of excess
intake.  If it could, you'd probably be putting your heart at risk - I would
suspect that to have enough basal metabolism 'rev' to handle any large
amount of excess you want to throw at it, would probably also cause your
heart to start beating too fast (as happens with an adrenaline surge, which
is the ultimate short-term 'rev' that your body goes through) and/or your
body temp to skyrocket.  The body at rest can only burn so much, whether
you're in ketosis or not.  Having a lot of muscle does up the amount that
your body at rest burns, but even a bodybuilder can't expect to eat 6000
cals a day and burn all of that just on basal metabolism.  They'd have to
work that excess off just like anyone else.

As I understand it and from what I've seen with my own body, I suspect that
ketosis merely bypasses the mechanism that makes fat storage *easy* even
when calorie intake is within the normal range.  Not that it eliminates fat
storage entirely, nor did I expect it to.  I'm not really sure where you got
that idea from.   The reason given for easily stored fat on high carb makes
sense to me - that carbs are more readily converted to glucose, the glucose
spike resulting from a high-carb meal provokes a high insulin response, the
insulin eliminates the high glucose and returns the blood-sugar level to
normal by getting rid of it as quickly as possible - by using what it can
and storing the rest.  Unless you are right at that moment engaging in
something that demands that much fuel (long hike, bike ride, working out),
what else can it do _but_ store it?

A low-carb meal does not provoke this response because there is little or no
glucose spike.  Protein and fat are converted to fuel much more slowly, so
instead of a 'spike' you have more of a gentle curve over time.  You have
less storage because the percentage of burn (basal metabolism) to
immediately available fuel is greater - both as a function of time and in
relation to the peak.  It's the difference between a heavy downpour that
lasts for three hours and a gentle drizzle that lasts for three days.  Even
if the amount of water released is the same in both cases, you would have
less problem with the drizzle than the downpour.  The ground can absorb the
slower release and take care of it, while the downpour might exceed what can
be absorbed/drained in that shorter amount of time.

So if your meal does not provide enough fuel over that time period, your
body goes into its storage to get more.  That is IMO one of the benefits of
LC over simple calorie restriction (some of the others being satiation and
not provoking metabolic conservation - 'starvation mode').  But if what
you're eating still exceeds what you require, even given the extra benefit
of slower fuel release, storage is going to happen.  At that point you
either have to cut intake or increase requirement - or as JC would say, "eat
less, exercise more", <g>.   I really don't think Atkins said anything that
contradicts this, or that he believed that ketosis meant that you would burn
everything you ate no matter how much that was.

Stargazer
Atkins since Apr '03
192/147/140